Scaling warframe ability is a mistake for balance, challenge and "endgame"

[Lutesque]

31 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

🤔 What, akin to one player equipping Dragon Keys while another player doesn’t, and they use the same build in the same mission?

Exactly.... The Trick here is to Present It as Something else entirely so that they dont Realise that's exactly what they're doing.... 😁

32 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

 

A while ago (years now?) before I started experimenting, I’d thought and made a post (or was it topic?) suggesting incentivising using Dragon Keys by granting increased EXP and money gained and stuff while they were equipped, to sort of put the fight back into Warframe for myself and anyone else looking for the idea of a personal difficulty modifier.

See... The way you Described it here would make those Challenge whine about Gimping Themselves....

The Dragon Key's Description should Read exactly like The Steel Carpet Description.... "Plus 100 Levels & Plus 4000% EHP"... 

Note that all you have to do is Change a few UI elements to make players believe they are actually dealing with Level 130 Steel Bench Enenmies....

Remember.... Enemy Behavior doesn't change with Levels so they won't even know it's all just a Trick... 👀

38 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

 

Since then I figure that it’s not necessary, not strong enough of an effect anyways, and just means that someone not using the dragon keys will mop the floor while Master Dragon Keys would just be better off equipping a different mod(s) instead if they’re just going to reduce the effects of their original stat-boost mods they had equipped in the first place

I mean... That's fine... Is it not ?

The person who's mopping the floor isn't the one Complaining about The Lack Of Challenge so it will be all good on Their End... 👍

43 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

 

edit: I don’t know if this is what you meant, I was just strongly reminded of what I consider a similar idea I’ve had in the past

I think it is.... My idea has no Exact Values or Details so maybe thats causing Confusion... 😱

4 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

 

It's not that I am or am not looking for challenge. What I'm looking for is a use for interesting mechanics. 

Based on the Builds you've been mentioning i sincerely Doubt it....

There's nothing Interesting about More Damage Multipliers and Increased Capacity....

But you know what is Interesting.... 👀

It's basically Rift Strike 2.0... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

9 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

 

Star chart is just boring, enemies die too easily and there aren't enough of them. Our kits function differently in SP because enemies don't die so easily. Like low efficiency builds can fail in normal starchart because there aren't enough enemies to gather orbs but SP makes them viable with higher spawn rates. It opens up possibilities that don't exist for normal stuff. You can't gimp yourself enough to make use of some fun mechanics(that thermal sunder thing or max spore damage saryn I was talking about in the other thread).

While that is Technically True.... It's also has nothing to do with Challenge.... In which case you can just ask for More Enemies in The Regular Star Chart....  

11 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

 

Take Mirage for example. Explosive Legerdemain just nukes normal stuff but in SP it is a cc ability, it does hardly any damage but it locks the place down

How ?

If you use It once... It Deletes The Loot and if it doesn't Kill any Enemies then there won't be any Loot to Convert into More Bombs.... 🤔

13 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Now mirage in no longer a dps queen nuke she is one of the best cc frames in the game.

Yeah no she really isn't....

17 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

You don't even need to build for strength since eclipse is unreliable. Now pair Explosive Legerdemain with Shooting Gallery/muzzle flash. You lock down the whole damn map with constant explosions, blind and jamming enemy guns. It's still a cheese build but it's different and not possible in star chart unless you play for quite a while. 

If it's Unreliable that just shows how bad Mirage is a CC....

And you can Totally Do a Shooting Gallery Build on The Normal Star Chart.... It's only limitation is Line Of Sight.... 

You also don't need to bother with The Steel Sofa to make Explosive Legerdemain not kill.... It's got Terrible Scaling and it's Damage Falls Off Extremely Quickly versus Armored Enemies....

Unless you're Build is Better Than Mine... 👀

21 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

We still have the power to dispatch enemies of any lvl with weapons but our abilities provide utility instead of just kills. Instead of a nuke fest we actually have a use for crowd control. 

There's always been a useful for Crowd Controll and Crowd Controll is even Stronger in The Steel Basin since so many Damage Abilities Scale So Poorly Anyways....

Particularly Grouping Abilities like Airburst and Larva.... 👀 

21 minutes ago, Darkduprey said:

To be fair it does contribute to the challenge to some degree.

Now of course bullet sponges are not a real and well designed challenge but on the other hand, you still need numbers to reach a certain threshold to create a challenging experience. You can't have challenge if your super complexe boss dies before activating any mechanic or if his damages are so low that you survive even while ignoring his mechanics.

Sadly Warframe had no Such Bosses.... Well...I mean... There's The Exploiter but she Cheats so she Doesn't Count....

[Monolake]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

I'm pretty sure only the Armor Scaling got Nerfed.... Meaning the Raw HP is still the Same...

Only the Effective HP got lowered and that Doesn't matter anyway because it's still to High to use anything that Doesn't Bypass Armor.....

 

no, HP scaling past lvl~80 got curbed too, wiki still has comparison to old one which was exponential and impossible to deal with without HP%scaling damage

[Berzerkules]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Based on the Builds you've been mentioning i sincerely Doubt it....

There's nothing Interesting about More Damage Multipliers and Increased Capacity....

But you know what is Interesting.... 👀

It's basically Rift Strike 2.0... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What? You think I don't know about combo/heavy attack rift strike 2.0? you underestimate me. 

Too bad DE totally missed the mark and made it only for Dual daggers. Dual daggers are at the bottom of the list for heavy attack damage. You might even say it's contemptable. That +30% slash is essentially worthless on any dual dagger except Nepheri(my bad, forgot about okina) where it brings slash weight just above heat and 90% damage doesn't mean much when you have CO and prime with viral. A lot of wasted potential there. Sure you can mod anguish+hatred on frame but the base stats are so bad. 

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

While that is Technically True.... It's also has nothing to do with Challenge.... In which case you can just ask for More Enemies in The Regular Star Chart....  

You're funny, ask DE for increased spawn rates lol. If wishes were fishes beggars would eat. 

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

If you use It once... It Deletes The Loot and if it doesn't Kill any Enemies then there won't be any Loot to Convert into More Bombs.... 🤔

Yeah no she really isn't....

It doesn't really delete loot though it the consumables, it converts ammo to cold, affinity to toxin, energy to electric, and health to heat proximity mines. I don't need the ability to get kills because I use my weapons. Melee uses no ammo and enemies are already primed with base status types from legerdemain so no need to waste ammo and prime. All kills make more future mines. It's a never ending cycle. 

If you don't know you don't know. It's fine if you've never experienced what I'm taking about but just imagine all the unused ammo and health drops there are laying around in a SP endurance run where you aren't using ammo or taking damage to health. Legerdemain also blinds on cast, pair that with the blinds from shooting gallery/muzzle flash. Mirage just saunters through SP unnoticed. 

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

If it's Unreliable that just shows how bad Mirage is a CC....

Eclipse is Mirage's damage buff/dmg reduction ability. It is effected by the intensity of the light or dark you're standing in which is effected by your display settings. That's what makes eclipse unreliable as a damage boosting ability. It has nothing to do with cc. I'm talking about using explosive legerdemain as a cc.

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

There's always been a useful for Crowd Controll and Crowd Controll is even Stronger in The Steel Basin since so many Damage Abilities Scale So Poorly Anyways....

Particularly Grouping Abilities like Airburst and Larva.... 👀 

There are cc abilities you can use in normal but what's the point? Enemies aren't a threat, nuking peons is the name of the game.

And that's why SP is fun, cc can play a huge role in your success or failure. You can use your whole kit and not rely on one button nukes. 

[Teridax68]

I personally don't actually think a game is fun when it gives us obstacles one is numerically incapable of taking on. This is an issue with Warframe's method of scaling difficulty by ramping up enemy stats, and its implementation is the reason why so many warframe abilities (and often entire warframes) suck. When a warframe ability is designed to primarily output damage, its lack of scaling means it becomes useless past a certain threshold, which never feels good. If every ability fell off, then perhaps that would act as a good gauge of when to stop, but the issue is that utility abilities naturally scale: crowd control doesn't fall off, nor does stripping a percentage of armor or giving oneself damage and stats immunity via effects like Limbo's Rift. The problem therefore isn't that damage abilities scale in my opinion, but that damage abilities need to scale in order to be on par with utility abilities that automatically scale anyway. If this invalidates difficulty, this to me says more about the flawed implementation of difficulty in Warframe than scaling on damage abilities.

[TheArmchairThinker]

4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Sounds good in Theory... But where would this Flat Damage Be Balanced Around.... If it's Steel Path then everything that isn't Steel Path will become Trivial.... If it's Sortie Level then your Abilities become Rubbish on Steel Path....In which case you can Just Rename The Steel Path to "Call Of Duty Simulator" since you won't be doing anything Warframe Related....

I thought that's what people in forums want, turning Warframe into Call of Duty? No? Ok

4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

For Level 10 to Level 150 You can Basically Ignore Any and All Enemies' Attempts Damage you for a decent number Of Warframe's.... Then at around 151 to 180 Things Start to hurt alil Bit but that just means you need to be Alil More Carefull.... From Level 200 to Level 10 0000 (No... I'm not going to bother with this 9 999 Crap... It's 10 000 and you know it) enemies touch you and you die....

That's what Happens when you use Flat Values in a Scaling Game.... You only get about 20 - 50 Levels where things Feel Just Right and Everything else is Either Instant Death or Not Worth Paying Attention To...

That means no more level 10,000, there's a stop on your progression and you get that "endgame"

Want to prevent nothing worth paying attention to? Cap the power at level 40 (sedna level) and you see sortie and steel path become "challenge"

4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

All Warframe Damage Abilities Should Work off That Formula....

Time to remove that from booben and other warframes (yes, screw you and your fun)

[TheArmchairThinker]

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

crowd control doesn't fall off, nor does stripping a percentage of armor or giving oneself damage and stats immunity via effects like Limbo's Rift

And see what happens to CC on other games, they're only different kind of slow, stun, weaken, or stagger, or last for a very short time (1 - 2 seconds at most, longer is overkill) so we either gut CC to that state or shorten the time significantly

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Exactly.... The Trick here is to Present It as Something else entirely so that they dont Realise that's exactly what they're doing.... 😁

See... The way you Described it here would make those Challenge whine about Gimping Themselves....

The Dragon Key's Description should Read exactly like The Steel Carpet Description.... "Plus 100 Levels & Plus 4000% EHP"... 

Note that all you have to do is Change a few UI elements to make players believe they are actually dealing with Level 130 Steel Bench Enenmies....

Remember.... Enemy Behavior doesn't change with Levels so they won't even know it's all just a Trick... 👀

Hmm.

I mean… are you wrong?

🤔 Change the presentation, change the reception

[Berzerkules]

35 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And see what happens to CC on other games, they're only different kind of slow, stun, weaken, or stagger, or last for a very short time (1 - 2 seconds at most, longer is overkill) so we either gut CC to that state or shorten the time significantly

No cc, invis frame endurance meta steps up to the plate. 

But, Banshee has always been good at endurance and she relies on that 2 second stagger from silence. You just use limited range to your advantage and move through packs. All you need is a couple seconds. Or you can mass proc cold to increase that 2 second stagger, or rad to get enemies to attack each other, or xata's whisper to proc void status so enemies can't shoot you, or all of those. I ran banshee to ~4k yesterday and only stopped because the update. 

Gut cc and people gonna find a way, that's what we do. As endurance runner I can say players will adapt to whatever the DE throws at us. If the gut everything it's not fun anymore. Breaking games is a blast man. 

It will take a full rework of everything. DE might as well make WF 2 because this one is beyond repair. 

[AuroraSonicBoom]

The basic notion that higher enemy damage forcing players to move more quickly and have faster reaction times being equated to skill and endgame is precisely because we have no difficult content in the game. Twitching around the map with 20apm in a purely instinct driven fashion isn't challenging. Limiting combat to applying damage as fast as possible while moving as fast as possible to escape damage turns any gameplay into a grindy slog without variety, where enemies cannot shine, or dare I even say, outsmart players. 

The most challenging and by that I also mean fun gameplay I have, or had, was when I intentionally gimp myself and my gear to fight enemies in the simulacrum, that take me at least 3-5 seconds each to kill, without being forced to be in a constant state of rolling and bullet jumping. Just spawning a group of level 40 enemies while using little to no mods on your gear is enough to get that kind of experience. IMO that's a much more engaging battle to fight than running around at full power on hour long steep path survivals. Warframe's game boils down to gear checks and spamming movement keys. It lacks finesse, and doesn't give players the time to think of and employ different tactics. In that sense, DE is completely right when they say that the game doesn't have an endgame. 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

2 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

The basic notion that higher enemy damage forcing players to move more quickly and have faster reaction times being equated to skill and endgame is precisely because we have no difficult content in the game. Twitching around the map with 20apm in a purely instinct driven fashion isn't challenging. Limiting combat to applying damage as fast as possible while moving as fast as possible to escape damage turns any gameplay into a grindy slog without variety, where enemies cannot shine, or dare I even say, outsmart players. 

The most challenging and by that I also mean fun gameplay I have, or had, was when I intentionally gimp myself and my gear to fight enemies in the simulacrum, that take me at least 3-5 seconds each to kill, without being forced to be in a constant state of rolling and bullet jumping. Just spawning a group of level 40 enemies while using little to no mods on your gear is enough to get that kind of experience. IMO that's a much more engaging battle to fight than running around at full power on hour long steep path survivals. Warframe's game boils down to gear checks and spamming movement keys. It lacks finesse, and doesn't give players the time to think of and employ different tactics. In that sense, DE is completely right when they say that the game doesn't have an endgame. 

Parkour 2.0 was an oversight in that DE didn't account how it would change the entire dynamic of a mission. Mods or not, players have no challenge running away from enemies. Players always dictate the terms of engagements and enemies have to react if they are even allowed to.

Back in Parkour 1.0, enemies were a legitimate obstacle to extraction you were forced to fight through because limited stamina meant you could not rush past them.

Not to say Parkour 2.0 is bad, but the rest of the game should have been updated to accomodate how the game changed. 

Sequelitis, Castlevania 1 vs 4 situation.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

14 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Are scaling abilities really a problem? There are only a hand full of damage abilities that scale with enemy level, Xaku' guns, Vauban's flechette, Trin's energy vampire, Octavia's mallet, Frost globe thing am I missing any? 

mag's magnetize, every grendel ability, hydroids puddle, garuda's 1st, nekros shadows in a roundabout way, same with revenant/nyx/xaku mind control, sevagoth shadow revive, vauban laser beam, oberon smite, and maybe a few others I forgot.

 

ALso why did this thread get necro'ed

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2021-04-08 at 12:20 AM, Wyrmius_Prime said:

The problem with DE is the fact that they are too scared to develop proper high level content because they are still too busy caressing the fragile balls of every casual player out there. When Steel Path was released, people actually explored new and interesting setups, because raw damage wasn't enough with the scaling armor. Some even played Nyx lol

This isn't what's going on. DE builds the game based on data and simple, logical thinking. Only a very select few have the actual time, energy and will to play high levels. All of this talk about balance and challenge is NOT appealing sounding, does not fit the game's core objective and will not increase the player base, aka the financial stakeholders. In other words, there's absolutely no point in investing the time to cater to this very loud but very small group. 

I mean, seriously think about it. Endurance players scream for more challenge but also scream for scaling power, stronger abilities, shield gating and stronger weapons....while simultaneously being notorious for screaming against nerfs, mod changes, self damage and stagger. That's a hand tying situation, right? What are you all willing to give up, as a group, in order to make the goal reachable?

[Wyrmius_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

This isn't what's going on. DE builds the game based on data and simple, logical thinking. Only a very select few have the actual time, energy and will to play high levels.

They haven't really taken any risks regarding developing challenging game content in the past 8 years, so all the data they have is from keeping the level of challenge in the game stale as hell with just enough ''new'' stuff to not let the game die. To this day we are still completing the same mission types as we all those years ago.

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I mean, seriously think about it. Endurance players scream for more challenge but also scream for scaling power, stronger abilities, shield gating and stronger weapons....while simultaneously being notorious for screaming against nerfs, mod changes, self damage and stagger. That's a hand tying situation, right? What are you all willing to give up, as a group, in order to make the goal reachable?

You are mistaking casual Redditors for endurance players. There are infinite number of combos that can deal scaling damage, so none of the 3 remaining endurance players are going to complain if just a single one of them gets nerfed. However, the casual Redditor will most definitely complain about their 7 forma *insert name of an AoE weapon here* getting nerfed that they bought an overpriced riven for.

There are also other ways outside of endless missions to implement challenge into the game, for example, you can look at literally any game other than Warframe for examples on how to do so. I absolutely hate it when people pretend that we should be choosing between 1 minute speedrun capture missions or 5 hour endurance runs, as if those 2 extremes are the only way missions can be developed in videogames.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

30 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

They haven't really taken any risks regarding developing challenging game content in the past 8 years, so all the data they have is from keeping the level of challenge in the game stale as hell with just enough ''new'' stuff to not let the game die. To this day we are still completing the same mission types as we all those years ago.

You are mistaking casual Redditors for endurance players. There are infinite number of combos that can deal scaling damage, so none of the 3 remaining endurance players are going to complain if just a single one of them gets nerfed. However, the casual Redditor will most definitely complain about their 7 forma *insert name of an AoE weapon here* getting nerfed that they bought an overpriced riven for.

There are also other ways outside of endless missions to implement challenge into the game, for example, you can look at literally any game other than Warframe for examples on how to do so. I absolutely hate it when people pretend that we should be choosing between 1 minute speedrun capture missions or 5 hour endurance runs, as if those 2 extremes are the only way missions can be developed in videogames.

That's the point: there should be no either/or scenario and DE has made sure to not create that. The forums are attempting to do so and, as is constantly proven, DE usually makes the overall best decisions on direction and gameplay. 

I also have an issue with you saying DE hasn't addressed challenge. In those 8 years, we've had challenges from Mot to eidolons, PT, Arbi....you get it. MASTERING those modes over time is no excuse to suddenly say challenge wasn't there. That is a seriously bad habit of the endgame/challenge/endurance players and to expect DE to continuously, endlessly cater to those who would spend sunrise to sunset playing a new mode is ridiculous. Add on the fact that the hard work becomes trivialize by hand holding how-to vids, plus those who are hand held suddenly coming to the forums to demanding more (despite literally not trying on their own....meaning the challenge was too great).

All of this would tell me, as a dev, that the R&D time would be less fruitful and perhaps a more sporadic release is better and wealthier long term. The proof is Warframe's longevity itself, not stale and still generating high buzz and player base. The formula is working and ever progressive. Your jobs are to improve upon that without sacrificing current growth. Can you create a structure to assist...because DE should be resistant to do so. They already risk enough as is.

[Silligoose]

On 2021-04-08 at 3:48 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how balance, challenge and endgame being the things put in warframe for whatever reason they want as the negative, I'm looking at another part of what I think makes that not easy to do : scaling warframe ability

As you can see, we can fight level 9999 enemies even without scaling damage through many means and with recently added scaling on warframe abilities on the rework, it makes it hard to set where the balance is when some warframes can wipe level 9999 enemies comfortably with scaling abilities while those who don't will have some struggling with that if they don't have any way to soften enemy defenses (Loki comes to my mind about it where he doesn't have anything for that)

If we say we want endgame, where is the end of our warframe power? Because those with scaling damage will comfortably play on level 9999 like nothing while those without will be left behind

If we want to say balance for endgame, how can you balance an infinitely scaling power?

If we want to say challenge? How can you challenge warframes with scaling power to break the odds?

I think having abilities with a flat amount of damage is where the balance can be put, means if you go too far, it becomes harder to fight

With balanced ability like that, we can determine how can we put the odds against players to make challenge and so we can set the so called endgame

Not only that, there will be a lot of nerfing that I'll see to find those unicorns people say this game need

Until next time

Yep pretty hard to balance a mechanic such as damage output between different frames and/or abilities and/or content when the damage output of some abilities is based on the target's health. There are of course other tools available to devs to present challenge, but scaling damage based on things like enemy level or enemy HP takes away a tool developers can use to increase difficulty and level of challenge. Scaling damage isn't the only imbalance and with each imbalance, DE ties their own hands and pretty much forces themselves to implement mechanics to nerf players anyway. Outside of damage attenuation, the some of the weirder ways they've gone  about it is is the seemingly arbitrary choice in deciding what kinds of cc would be allowed to work against certain targets, such as Demolishers or Acolytes. Frost can't Freeze Demolishers, because reasons, but one can Ensnare them. Weird.

I'd prefer DE balance mechanics properly, so they no longer have to mess about with damage attenuation formulas and no longer have to try and think up mini-games such as Necramechs.

It is always funny to me when players have a stance against nerfing our damage: We are getting nerfed one way or another. Either DE does it upfront, so players can create builds and know what kind of damage they can do, or DE can go the way we currently are, with damage attenuation formulas being used, which nerfs damage anyway, but gives the bonus experience of not knowing why damage against some enemies does millions of damage and against others, thousands. 

[TheArmchairThinker]

10 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

It will take a full rework of everything. DE might as well make WF 2 because this one is beyond repair

It's not really beyond repair, just overly grown with no limits which makes Warframe one of a kind with possibility to run endurance with silence banshee but unfortunately people here can't accept that and everything must be a "balanced game that requires skill and teamwork"

9 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

It lacks finesse, and doesn't give players the time to think of and employ different tactics. In that sense, DE is completely right when they say that the game doesn't have an endgame. 

Look at your previous statement

9 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

The most challenging and by that I also mean fun gameplay I have, or had, was when I intentionally gimp myself and my gear to fight enemies in the simulacrum, that take me at least 3-5 seconds each to kill, without being forced to be in a constant state of rolling and bullet jumping

Why does that happen? Because Warframe allows you to kill that fast while other games gimp everyone to make it near impossible to kill an enemy faster than determined amount of time. If you find that fun, good for you but I don't think DE will take a 180 and change the whole game to be that kind of fun and I'm going to be one unhappy player when that happens because warframe is the only game like that, putting no limits on you as "challenging"

[TheArmchairThinker]

7 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

There are also other ways outside of endless missions to implement challenge into the game, for example, you can look at literally any game other than Warframe for examples on how to do so. I absolutely hate it when people pretend that we should be choosing between 1 minute speedrun capture missions or 5 hour endurance runs, as if those 2 extremes are the only way missions can be developed in videogames.

And is there any game that gives you unlimited power like Warframe? With so many things to make you an immortal nuke but still have "challenge"?

[Wolfdoggie]

What an absolute madlad take. Damage abilities are plain worthless without scaling; thus why it exists.

[Berzerkules]

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

It's not really beyond repair, just overly grown with no limits which makes Warframe one of a kind with possibility to run endurance with silence banshee but unfortunately people here can't accept that and everything must be a "balanced game that requires skill and teamwork"

I'd prefer that they at least encouraged teamwork but look at the direction they're going. They made Gloom a subsume ability. They gave every frame a 95% slow with a 10%+ life steal that works on all weapons and abilities. That's so far beyond broken, you might as well be playing the Sim. There is no way they are going to do a complete 180 and limit cc abilities to a 1-2 second duration.

It's fun to dream up potential changes to turn WF into our version of a perfect game but it's unrealistic to expect DE to implement these changes.

[Lutesque]

17 hours ago, Monolake said:

no, HP scaling past lvl~80 got curbed too, wiki still has comparison to old one which was exponential and impossible to deal with without HP%scaling damage

I saw The Dev Stream where this Implemented.... On levels 1 through 150 it's exactly like it was before.... The Nerf only Takes Effect After That..... 

16 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

What? You think I don't know about combo/heavy attack rift strike 2.0? you underestimate me. 

I'm sure you know about it ... I just don't think you use as much as the Meta Alternative....

16 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Too bad DE totally missed the mark and made it only for Dual daggers. Dual daggers are at the bottom of the list for heavy attack damage.

The Damage Is Not Point Of This Exercise.... Besides I thought you were dealing Enough Damage Anyway.... 🤔

16 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

hat +30% slash is essentially worthless on any dual dagger except Nepheri(my bad, forgot about okina) where it brings slash weight just above heat and 90% damage doesn't mean much when you have CO and prime with viral. A lot of wasted potential there. Sure you can mod anguish+hatred on frame but the base stats are so bad. 

Again.... Boring.... 😐

I swear DE can add something Really Cool to the Game and Players just Ruin by Only Focusing On How Much Damage it Deals.... 😐

16 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

You're funny, ask DE for increased spawn rates lol. If wishes were fishes beggars would eat. 

Hey I never Said it would work.... 😝

16 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

It doesn't really delete loot though it the consumables, it converts ammo to cold, affinity to toxin, energy to electric, and health to heat proximity mines. I don't need the ability to get kills because I use my weapons. Melee uses no ammo and enemies are already primed with base status types from legerdemain so no need to waste ammo and prime. All kills make more future mines. It's a never ending cycle. 

It's a Waste of a Mod Slot that's what it is.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

16 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

If you don't know you don't know. It's fine if you've never experienced what I'm taking about but just imagine all the unused ammo and health drops there are laying around in a SP endurance run where you aren't using ammo or taking damage to health. Legerdemain also blinds on cast, pair that with the blinds from shooting gallery/muzzle flash. Mirage just saunters through SP unnoticed. 

So does Octavia... And she doesn't have a Convoluted Ritual for Achieving The Same Thing.... 👀

16 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Eclipse is Mirage's damage buff/dmg reduction ability. It is effected by the intensity of the light or dark you're standing in which is effected by your display settings. That's what makes eclipse unreliable as a damage boosting ability. It has nothing to do with cc. I'm talking about using explosive legerdemain as a cc.

Who Said anything about Eclipse ? 🤔

16 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

There are cc abilities you can use in normal but what's the point? Enemies aren't a threat, nuking peons is the name of the game.

And that's why SP is fun, cc can play a huge role in your success or failure. You can use your whole kit and not rely on one button nukes. 

You Can Do that on the Normal Star Chart too... 🤣

15 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

That means no more level 10,000, there's a stop on your progression and you get that "endgame"

Maybe in terms of Damage...but not in terms of Survivability.... Most Warframe's start getting One Shotted at Level 200 Easy....

15 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Want to prevent nothing worth paying attention to? Cap the power at level 40 (sedna level) and you see sortie and steel path become "challenge"

That's what Grendel Farm was Basically.... 

Did you enjoy Those ?

15 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Time to remove that from booben and other warframes (yes, screw you and your fun)

15 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Hmm.

I mean… are you wrong?

🤔 Change the presentation, change the reception

It's Happened Before.... 👀

Aaaah Found it... Jesus it took quite a bit of googling to find this video 😱

Skip to 1:30 For Relevant Topic....

Anyway I was Thinking that Every Game should Do this....

Design it for The Lowest Common Denominator and then use Smoke & Mirrors to Trick the Try Hards and Shut Them Up....

In the case of Fighting Games and Devil May Cry, those Pixel Perfect One Frame Timing Pain In The Ass Combos don't need to be So Precise..... The Game can simply Make them Precise in Training Mode and Then Add in Fuzzy Undocumented Input Buffer The Makes the Timing Much Easier.... Naturally some Hardcore Players will eventually See through The Trick but they're Belly Aching won't be as loud as so many people flexing that they can Low Strong Hit Confirm Kara Cancel Into Critical Art With 90% Consistency.... 👀

Even Shigeru Miyamoto did something like this way back for the earliest Metroid Games....

I'm all for Transperancy in Game Design but I don't think we're quite there yet.... You can Please Everybody in your Game.... If you lie... The Trick is to not get Caught.... 👀

Even Shinji Mikami understands this....

12 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

The basic notion that higher enemy damage forcing players to move more quickly and have faster reaction times being equated to skill and endgame is precisely because we have no difficult content in the game. Twitching around the map with 20apm in a purely instinct driven fashion isn't challenging.

I think it is... It just isn't Fun... 😱 Mostly because I can't Play Like That...😭

12 hours ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

ALso why did this thread get necro'ed

What's Funny is it was Necroed by the same person that Created it... 👀

12 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

This isn't what's going on. DE builds the game based on data and simple, logical thinking. Only a very select few have the actual time, energy and will to play high levels. All of this talk about balance and challenge is NOT appealing sounding, does not fit the game's core objective and will not increase the player base, aka the financial stakeholders. In other words, there's absolutely no point in investing the time to cater to this very loud but very small group.

Preach !!!

12 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

 

I mean, seriously think about it. Endurance players scream for more challenge but also scream for scaling power, stronger abilities, shield gating and stronger weapons....while simultaneously being notorious for screaming against nerfs, mod changes, self damage and stagger. That's a hand tying situation, right? What are you all willing to give up, as a group, in order to make the goal reachable?

They also scream for More Rewards.... Usually stuff that would negate the very same challenge their Asking For.... 😐

7 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Yep pretty hard to balance a mechanic such as damage output between different frames and/or abilities and/or content when the damage output of some abilities is based on the target's health.

That is exactly what makes it Balanced.... So long as the Percentages don't Exceed 25% Per Instance then it's balanced... 

The fact that happens to work on Level 10 000 Enemies doesn't mean it's Broken.... That just means it's Consistent....

It actually would be Broken if it didn't Work that way.... 👀 Which is Exactly how it Works on Mirage or Ash or Gara & Banshee....

7 hours ago, Silligoose said:

There are of course other tools available to devs to present challenge, but scaling damage based on things like enemy level or enemy HP takes away a tool developers can use to increase difficulty and level of challenge.

Again.... It does the Exact Opposite of what you think it does.... If it Scales off the Enemies Level that puts its right back in The Developers Control.... 

Because now you can do a Level 30 Mission and a level 130 Mission and that Ability will remain Consistent....

The Stuff that's Not Balanced is the Stuff that Doesn't Scale... But has been Buffed to Already Delete Level Cap Enemies Already.... Because everything below that Level it was Designed for will become Trivial..... Same goes for Piece Of $@#& Abilities that were balanced for lower levels but Suck Donkey Balls when you attemp a Sortie....

This is not Something happens to Abilities that Scale With Enemy Levels and Max Enemy HP..... 

In Short... That Means Booben and Octavia are actually the Most Balanced Warframes in The Game... It's Banshee and Mirage & Ash that are The Real Trouble Makers... 👀

7 hours ago, Silligoose said:

 

I'd prefer DE balance mechanics properly, so they no longer have to mess about with damage attenuation formulas and no longer have to try and think up mini-games such as Necramechs.

Interestingly enough... I totally Agree... 🤔

3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And is there any game that gives you unlimited power like Warframe? With so many things to make you an immortal nuke but still have "challenge"?

 Nioh Does.... As Does The Witcher 3 in the Blood & Wine DLC....

2 hours ago, Wolfdoggie said:

What an absolute madlad take. Damage abilities are plain worthless without scaling; thus why it exists.

I think most people pointing the finger at Scaling Damage don't even understand how it Works...  👀

1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

I'd prefer that they at least encouraged teamwork but look at the direction they're going. They made Gloom a subsume ability. They gave every frame a 95% slow with a 10%+ life steal that works on all weapons and abilities. That's so far beyond broken, you might as well be playing the Sim. There is no way they are going to do a complete 180 and limit cc abilities to a 1-2 second duration.

It's only Broken to you because you Lack an Imagination... Gloom is in Warframe what Sloth was in Nioh.... It's only OP on the Surface....

Seriously... Ask Limbo what he thinks about Gloom:

 

 

[Monolake]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I saw The Dev Stream where this Implemented.... On levels 1 through 150 it's exactly like it was before.... The Nerf only Takes Effect After That..... 

 

 

no its 80, why dont you check wiki

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/7/79/HealthScaling.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000

[Lutesque]

17 minutes ago, Monolake said:

no its 80, why dont you check wiki

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/7/79/HealthScaling.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000

Because I don't Trust The Wiki.... 

[Berzerkules]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

-snip-

I can respond to all that. 

I'll just address the amar set, Nehperi thing rift strike gimmick thing.

Dual daggers are just terrible imo. I dislike the flow of all of the stances, they just feels clunky. Pair that with the low range and base attack speed of most dual daggers it's an all around frustrating experience for me. The limited range feels especially bad when you tele into a pack of enemies and only hit a couple. On top of all that the stats aren't great.

I also dislike the spit fire ball animation of Nepheri because it locks you in the animation, stop and go, stop and go. idk it just feels janky. 

I'd rather use weapons that have stances I enjoy and have their own unique gimmick, like the Keratinos. Claw stances are awesome, also infested claws, hell yeah!!. 13% cc, who gives af, you get 3m range for like 3 minutes on a heavy attack at 12x combo. Run zenurik for inner might with focus energy and you basically always have full combo, that +3m range and oh yeah, a unique 7 hit heavy attack where you spin in a circle. Best part about that 9m+ whirlwind is it doesn't lock you in place with an animation, you can still move. Why would I build for a 10m teleport heavy attack trash dual dagger when I can heavy attack in a 9m+ radius with Keratinos? 

Or I can use another of my person favorites, Dual Ether. Meme range build on that thing is insane at 11m. It's like mini Baruuk but with Dual Swords. Swirling Tiger stance, if you only knew how much fun that is.

I tried running 2x amar set on frames and fun weapons but giving up a couple mod slots for a gimmick sucks. I'd was giving up utility mods like natural talent, vigorous swap/synth reflex, enemy radar, rapid resilience or augments. Things that just make frames feel smooth to play for a gimmick. Teleporting every once in a while is cool but it's not fun if my frame doesn't feel right for the entire mission. 

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

The sole purpose of level is to change the TTK and TTBK.

Damage scaling can be normal, it depends how NPC HP scales. The real criteria is TTK.

For a horde shooter (SP survival is), the TTK of trash mobs have to remain somewhat low, whereas the TTK of semi boss / boss can increase a bit more.

There are some OP stuff in warframe, but it's not much due to abilities with damage scaling.

It's rather : almost unlimited energy, really strong CC, damage output that bypass NPC damage reduction, perma invisibility, ludicrous damage of some abilities or weapons (even without scaling ... khora whip...), huge damage boost that can stack, invulnerability that you can use one after another (shield gating / rolling guard / void mode)

[(NSW)Greybones]

10 hours ago, Lutesque said:

It's Happened Before.... 👀

 

Aaaah Found it... Jesus it took quite a bit of googling to find this video 😱

Skip to 1:30 For Relevant Topic....

Anyway I was Thinking that Every Game should Do this....

Design it for The Lowest Common Denominator and then use Smoke & Mirrors to Trick the Try Hards and Shut Them Up....

In the case of Fighting Games and Devil May Cry, those Pixel Perfect One Frame Timing Pain In The Ass Combos don't need to be So Precise..... The Game can simply Make them Precise in Training Mode and Then Add in Fuzzy Undocumented Input Buffer The Makes the Timing Much Easier.... Naturally some Hardcore Players will eventually See through The Trick but they're Belly Aching won't be as loud as so many people flexing that they can Low Strong Hit Confirm Kara Cancel Into Critical Art With 90% Consistency.... 👀

Even Shigeru Miyamoto did something like this way back for the earliest Metroid Games....

I'm all for Transperancy in Game Design but I don't think we're quite there yet.... You can Please Everybody in your Game.... If you lie... The Trick is to not get Caught.... 👀

Even Shinji Mikami understands this....

Thanks for the effort, these were pretty interesting videos 👍 . I particularly liked the second one; Game maker’s toolkit is always good for a watch I feel.

The talk about dynamic difficulty is an interesting one, particularly when Flow [game] was mentioned.

Like, the idea to delve more or less deep based on player preference? I love that stuff; I think letting the player dictate how tough the game is is great, because that lets the player figure out for themselves where that sweet spot is, and it’s going to be different for each player. Most other games have that kind of thing in a different form in terms of “Easy, Medium, Hard” difficulty selections, but that’s not exactly as as dynamic unless it’s changeable in-game.

But then I take that thinking into Warframe, and it’s kind of like…

Well, I mean the whole reason one goes more shallow in Flow is because they’re bigger than the bad guys. Makes the game easier, and this is acceptable to those who wanted to go more shallow. No-one really expects the game to be harder when the player is bigger than the bad guys

In Warframe, I always thought that building for stat increases and power increases make the player bigger, and then a player goes into content where the bad guys are smaller because the whole point is that when the player’s Frame or Weapon or combination is so much bigger, the game is easier. That build is designed for deeper dives, and to climb to the shallower part is to have an easier time.

But then, unlike Flow, we can make ourselves as small as we want again (and having to start shallower again), and then proceed deeper again using a different build/build combination. The unmodded Warframe and Weapon is about as base as we can get without re-ranking or Dragon Keys. That’s the blank slate we start with whenever we think about building however we want, and the builds find their place in different tiers of the game, partly dictated by player capability and partly dictated by gear.

…. 🤔 this stuff… is making me think about expectations and results and stuff. Thanks