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How should Nyx be fixed..?


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42 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

That’s a valid point regarding players like the OP who admit to never having tried her. But did you ever consider maybe some of these players aren’t using her because they have tried and didn’t like her? So they can still be speaking from experience.

I get where you’re coming from and didn’t mean to sound harsh in my reply, I just think it’s important to respect other’s perspectives.

Your opinions on Nyx are entirely subjective and specific to your niche playstyle. A lot of people simply will not see eye to eye with you on that.

Yeh I totally get that. Although I would say that trying a frame and persevering with a frame are 2 separate things and there are certainly frames in the game that require not so much more skill but more effort to get the best out of. I would definitely include Nyx in that, along with frames like Equinox. If you go back through the thread you'll see that everyone who brought up points of how the abilities are I've offered my opinion and method of using those abilities and had a fairly decent back and forth with those people. This particular fellow I saw taking a swing at a user I respect and it was quite obvious he had no experience with the frame so I decided to intervene. And don't worry you don't sound harsh at all mate, I can take negative criticism, I do it in my job all the time, it's water off a duck's back. You present your criticisms of me in a healthy way and as I've said even to this guy, everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

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15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

As much as I hate multi-quoting, this is getting annoying so here we go.

Funny, in my immediate previous post I predicted that your desire for your previous reply to be "our last exchange" was bull, and that what you really wanted was to have that last word. Not only was I entirely right, you didn't even take a break.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Incase you hadn't figured it out by now, that's my response when you decide to try and act all superior

That's interesting, because the problem being pointed out is precisely your own clumsy attempts at acting superior when masking an inability to argue cogently. Ironic.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

It has nothing to do with me not knowing statistics, it has to do entirely with the fact that I understand that a frame being niche isn't always a bad thing.

Which demonstrates your misunderstanding of statistics, as you clearly do not know how to read the difference between something that's niche, and something that's unpopular. You are also visibly refusing to read the room, as overwhelming player feedback shows Nyx is in fact unpopular, and not simply niche. All of this also begs the question: why is Nyx so niche?

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

No I understood, you just didn't make a useful point.

Really? Because this:

1 hour ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

3rd point: Not sure what your point is there, really didn't say anything of value.

Doesn't really convey any sort of understanding. Deception really is not your strong suit, and if you can't answer something, you're better off dropping it.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Incorrect seeing as other players enjoy Nyx the way she is as well, clearly it's not just me being entitled. 

Correct, it's not just you being entitled, it's you and... one other person? I guess you can be entitled at each other, while the rest of us provide constructive feedback.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Neither are you. Remember that because you seem to think it's your way or the highway as well.

But this is clearly false, as I never attached any importance to the specifics of the changes I listed, and merely gave them out as one take among many of how Nyx could be changed. What I think is non-negotiable is that Nyx is in need of improvements, because that is a fact easily observed through statistics and feedback. Having a grip on reality is not the same as denying basic facts that don't suit one's private agenda.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

The same goes for you, you need to understand that.

I understand that perfectly, which is why I take care not to argue purely from my own opinion. Perhaps you could learn from this.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

See above for my explanation about how I respond to your acts of superiority.

Your explanation's nonsense, though. Clearly, what's actually going on is that you feel like you personally need to shout down every single individual opinion that does not correspond to yours, even those made by people unaware of your existence on this thread. You're not responding to other people's "acts of superiority", you are the one trying to act superior over everyone else. Again, I'm not the only one to have pointed this out.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

What was it you said to me? I don't understand the point so therefore it doesn't make sense?

I guess you don't understand this point either, then, but to make it as elementary as possible: your point, which I agree with by the way, is that some frames are still popular despite having bad abilities. This point, while valid, is irrelevant to the discussion of Nyx, an unpopular frame whose abilities have also been heavily criticized. If you disagree, feel free to argue why you think your point is relevant.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Actually I was pointing out that we won't ever agree and suggesting it was a waste of time. If you want to continue arguing then by all means we can but timezones mean I'll be logging off soon anyway.

If you think this is a waste of time, feel free to stop arguing. Nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to do so, and your honor will not be tarnished if you bow out of this thread.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

No I've read their comments about her abilities and uses and used that to determine whether or not they know what they're doing. Just as you assumed I didn't know how to play Wukong, although in that instance I was making a point of how casuals play Wukong.

Except your own assessment of Wukong was demonstrably incorrect, while you've provided no justification at all for dismissing the opinions of the many people who have criticized Nyx. You're just making excuses for your excuses here.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

It's a separate conversation but personally I would prefer they expend their efforts towards creating meaningful content instead of churning out yet more frames or reworked current ones. 

That's fine, I disagree for a bunch of reasons, and while we can agree to disagree, I also don't think DE is going to stop updating existing content anytime soon.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

You're deliberatly missing the point to try and make me look bad.

Given that you haven't needed any outside help to achieve that so far, I don't see why I'd do that. You made an assessment that was flat-out wrong, and you'd be better off conceding lost battles instead of making every single one of them a hill to die on.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I am making the point that Wukong is popular because you can afk with him and watch netflix and you can also cloudwalk everywhere, cheese spy, sabotage, etc and hell even wait at the spawn till the objectives done and then zoom to the end. There have been numerous threads of complaints about it. You know where the search bar is, go look for yourself. 

That's the problem: I did. The only thread my search produces was this. I don't even disagree with the notion that Wukong is more liable to AFK in some missions than most other frames, and that this is something worth addressing, I just think you're severely overstating how problematic you think he is by invoking player complaints that just don't seem to match up to your bluff.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Neither do you, you came in here attacking someone before me for no real reason, swinging your opinion in his face. Now you're doing the same with me and guess what, I'm returning the favour.

This is a flat-out lie, as my very first post on this thread answered the OP directly in constructive fashion, and attacked no-one. My second post on the thread, presumably the one you're citing, was a direct response to someone who themselves had, for no real reason, decided to attack me and the entirety of my initial post. I get that you need to fabricate some sort of victim complex in order to justify your bullying of others, but guess what, I know how to fact-check, and I don't quite understand how you expected to gaslight me here when I can easily link to my own posts on this thread.

15 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I will. Here you go.
FS6bNeC.png

Why don't you show us all your extensive usage of Nyx? 

Sure, feel free to check my profile, which should show that I am by no means the most experienced Nyx player around, even if I have played her some small amount. It is interesting that you felt personally concerned here when it was not your credentials I was checking, but another user's, and you should perhaps let others speak from time to time. It is similarly cute of you to try to turn the tables, but the issue there is that I've never tried to argue based on any self-professed expertise with Nyx. Madurai-Prime did, and while I have no doubts about your own credentials given that I'd seen your profile already, I am genuinely curious if the latter is telling the truth as well.

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2 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

I understand Nyx may not be popular, but perhaps Nyx Prime is a niche market? "The best kept secret" sort of deal. I have it on good authority that the players that enjoy using her are endgame, high-MR players.

  Hide contents

d9uexU3.png

 

If I recall correctly, Nyx is liked by some of the higher MR players due to her easy instant Armor removal in Steel Path and because she can do the whole "Maim Trading" thing, wherein you get two Nyx's and bounce their built up damage off of each other while two other teammates damage you.

Realistically speaking though that isn't saying much, I know for higher level Index runs you want a Banshee because the units just get too tanky without her damage boost, and a Trinity so you don't run out of Energy. Yet I hardly ever see people using Trinity outside of her pre-determined roles (Eidolons, SO, etc), as she's really only good for support and offers nothing to the team outside of that (her CC is terrible, her ability damage is single-target, etc). Banshee is even worse, as while her damage is absolutely top-notch, her actual ability damage is laughable and she can't take a hit to save her life under normal circumstances, so you end up seeing her cowering in a corner spamming her 2 in order to not die while relying on Trinity to avoid death from AoE. People seem to believe that, because they have these specific uses, that they're totally fine and don't need some touch-ups (in Trinity's case) or a serious series of buffs to help them contend with everyone else on the roster.

Trinity, Nyx and Banshee all have great tools in their kit they can use and that they are specifically chosen for, but the numbers don't lie. They all aren't picked that often for a reason, and that's because other Warframes work just as well for general content while offering similar things. Wisp heals quite well and deals quite a lot of damage while supporting her team, Vauban can easily lockdown entire areas and kill off groups or single-units over time and of course you have Saryn for making enemies easier to kill while killing plenty herself. The list goes on.

A Warframe having a niche use is fine and dandy, but when that's all the Warframe has, it's pretty apparent they need some work done if for no other reason than to make them more versatile like they're designed to be.

Edited by (XBOX)Graysmog
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1 hour ago, Sloan441 said:

This subject has been brought up so many times. 

Nyx works well enough at present. The new psychic bolts is devastatingly effective. Everything else pretty much is as it was. The issue is she now has competing requirements to maximize ability effectiveness. In other words, you have to give up range for her CC to power her new PB. 

That means Nyx has two problems. Less range for her (soft) defensive abilities and her innate defense is practically nil--125 armor means bupkiss on it's own. 

I'd like to see her CC made harder and I'd like to see more attention paid to her passive defense. Also, since DE seems intent on giving her more offense, I'd like to see MC reworked so it's more effective with less pointless hassle in getting it working. 

Oh, and I don't even want to hear anything about Helminth. It was not a good idea and never should have happened. 

So. 

Mind control. Quit pissing around with fiddly nonsense and just boost the damage 1000% and call it good. That's damage; it'll kill stuff and be an asset on the battlefield. Then add an aggro component to the MC victim so it can actually contribute to both CC and Nyx' defense. It's a berserker unit under Nyx' aegis that will inevitably expire when MC does. Sucks to be mind controlled, yes? Yes. This appeals on several levels. 

Psychic Bolts. Fine as it is now. 

Chaos. Mostly fine as it is now. Maybe kick the base range up 15% to compensate for loss due to PB modding strategies. 

Absorb. Make the assimilate mod baseline. Change the mod so it either allows full runspeed or maybe even more range under the hamsterball. Heck, make mods for both. There's your choices and it makes Nyx more flexible on the battlefield. 

That passive. It could be left alone in light of the stuff above, but it should actually do something useful all the time--or at least all the time Nyx is actually in combat. I have a number of thoughts on this, but the simplest would be to give her an accuracy debuff like Titania has on her pixie-form, but with it affecting enemies under the effects of Chaos. Or you could make it like Gara's hard CC passive, just as an accuracy debuff from being too close to Nyx. Latter is simpler and certainly less fiddly. 

So anyways... This idea I like. It would be easy to implement and the play style wouldn't change so much that Nyx mains would feel lost.

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I'm just gonna chime in and say that as someone with little to no experience with Nyx, I don't think I should have any say on whether she should or shouldn't have a rework. 

But I will say, I take issue with the argument that frames should be reworked simply because they are "not popular enough". 

I think a better question is, among those that DO play the frame a lot, how many of those people think bigger or more drastic changes are needed? That's the only thing that is relevant. 

I think this is an especially important mindset to have when we have like what 44-45 frames and climbing as long as the game still lives. 

You simply cannot expect all of them to have anywhere near high or even decent useage stats. With so many frames splitting the pie, and there will always be a handful of king of the hills for certain popular gamemodes, you simply cannot stop that from happening. 

So what is more important is making sure that those who do regularly use a frame that is more niche in popularity, feel that the frame is still in a good place.

If so, drastic "rework style" changes, will do more harm than good in the long run. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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3 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

So anyways... This idea I like. It would be easy to implement and the play style wouldn't change so much that Nyx mains would feel lost.

I would agree outside of two things, enemy accuracy (among other AI factors) is absolute garbage as it stands and PB really shouldn't be so spammy.

To clarify, I'm more referring to our MC's accuracy. Test it out in the Simulacrum, Heavy Gunners are pretty good up until the enemy walks a few feet away or they move to the side. It seems the spread of some weapons is so bad that some enemies will shoot at range and continuously fail to deal decent damage because they're way outside of their optimal range. Some units will also just prefer to run around instead of shooting, and if they do shoot, some of them have some weird delays between firing and reloading, or moving from cover, etc. Units will also just endlessly melee if an enemy gets too close, dealing more damage ironically enough, or they'll just forego that in favor of constant ground slam. If DE really wants to improve MC, they're going to have to look at a lot more than just the damage. Enemies are inherently designed to fight us, and while that's fine under normal circumstances, MC should act as an override that turns your target into a scalable, tanky turret instead of a meat shield.

As for PB, I've never understood why the ability requires so much button-mashing. I'm fine with the Energy cost, I'd just rather it be "hit 6 enemies, kill 6 enemies, PB recasts automatically". Then you can hold the ability to down to activate said function, or tap it as normal to turn it off. I can tell you as someone who plays on a controller that it's really not fun trying to pull off consistently (looking at you Lavos, just save your previous concoction for the love of god), and as a guy with meaty claws that it's not something I'd like to have to pull off so quickly.

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33 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Funny, in my immediate previous post I predicted that your desire for your previous reply to be "our last exchange" was bull, and that what you really wanted was to have that last word. Not only was I entirely right, you didn't even take a break.

That's interesting, because the problem being pointed out is precisely your own clumsy attempts at acting superior when masking an inability to argue cogently. Ironic.

Which demonstrates your misunderstanding of statistics, as you clearly do not know how to read the difference between something that's niche, and something that's unpopular. You are also visibly refusing to read the room, as overwhelming player feedback shows Nyx is in fact unpopular, and not simply niche. All of this also begs the question: why is Nyx so niche?

Really? Because this:

Doesn't really convey any sort of understanding. Deception really is not your strong suit, and if you can't answer something, you're better off dropping it.

Correct, it's not just you being entitled, it's you and... one other person? I guess you can be entitled at each other, while the rest of us provide constructive feedback.

But this is clearly false, as I never attached any importance to the specifics of the changes I listed, and merely gave them out as one take among many of how Nyx could be changed. What I think is non-negotiable is that Nyx is in need of improvements, because that is a fact easily observed through statistics and feedback. Having a grip on reality is not the same as denying basic facts that don't suit one's private agenda.

I understand that perfectly, which is why I take care not to argue purely from my own opinion. Perhaps you could learn from this.

Your explanation's nonsense, though. Clearly, what's actually going on is that you feel like you personally need to shout down every single individual opinion that does not correspond to yours, even those made by people unaware of your existence on this thread. You're not responding to other people's "acts of superiority", you are the one trying to act superior over everyone else. Again, I'm not the only one to have pointed this out.

I guess you don't understand this point either, then, but to make it as elementary as possible: your point, which I agree with by the way, is that some frames are still popular despite having bad abilities. This point, while valid, is irrelevant to the discussion of Nyx, an unpopular frame whose abilities have also been heavily criticized. If you disagree, feel free to argue why you think your point is relevant.

If you think this is a waste of time, feel free to stop arguing. Nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to do so, and your honor will not be tarnished if you bow out of this thread.

Except your own assessment of Wukong was demonstrably incorrect, while you've provided no justification at all for dismissing the opinions of the many people who have criticized Nyx. You're just making excuses for your excuses here.

That's fine, I disagree for a bunch of reasons, and while we can agree to disagree, I also don't think DE is going to stop updating existing content anytime soon.

Given that you haven't needed any outside help to achieve that so far, I don't see why I'd do that. You made an assessment that was flat-out wrong, and you'd be better off conceding lost battles instead of making every single one of them a hill to die on.

That's the problem: I did. The only thread my search produces was this. I don't even disagree with the notion that Wukong is more liable to AFK in some missions than most other frames, and that this is something worth addressing, I just think you're severely overstating how problematic you think he is by invoking player complaints that just don't seem to match up to your bluff.

This is a flat-out lie, as my very first post on this thread answered the OP directly in constructive fashion, and attacked no-one. My second post on the thread, presumably the one you're citing, was a direct response to someone who themselves had, for no real reason, decided to attack me and the entirety of my initial post. I get that you need to fabricate some sort of victim complex in order to justify your bullying of others, but guess what, I know how to fact-check, and I don't quite understand how you expected to gaslight me here when I can easily link to my own posts on this thread.

Sure, feel free to check my profile, which should show that I am by no means the most experienced Nyx player around, even if I have played her some small amount. It is interesting that you felt personally concerned here when it was not your credentials I was checking, but another user's, and you should perhaps let others speak from time to time. It is similarly cute of you to try to turn the tables, but the issue there is that I've never tried to argue based on any self-professed expertise with Nyx. Madurai-Prime did, and while I have no doubts about your own credentials given that I'd seen your profile already, I am genuinely curious if the latter is telling the truth as well.

This will be my last reply to you because quite frankly, I'm sick of your attempts to act like such a superior twat. So after this, yeh, I don't care what you say, you just seem to like making long essays to try and make yourself intelligent and yeh, you're not worth the time it takes to read all that rubbish and then reply to your waffle just to be insulted by you again. Please note I'm going to ignore any point where you try to be rude, just as I did before, even you insist on going that route again and again. Pathetic really. Please note I've been also talking to 3 other users this entire time with differing opinions to mine and neither of us have decided to insult the other. 

In pretty much every point you've replied to here you've tried to imply I'm stupid which makes you not worth responding to. I've told you my opinion on statistics, you're allowed to disagree but you're a tool for saying the other person's opinion is crap instead of just laying out your opinion the same way I've been doing. My assessment of Wukong is not incorrect, my assessment of how he is used by casuals supports his popularity and if you can't figure that out there's no helping you nor do I care to. In your defense I will say that the last few threads on Wukong's issues have been deleted by mods so that is impossible to backtrack and find for a user who's not frequent on here. Essentially it boils down to 2 things, public matching where you're always going to find the worst offenders and cloud walker being used to simply ignore the game until someone else does the objective for you so you can fly to the exit for your rewards. In general any frame that promotes lazy play isn't really healthy for the game as it promotes I guess anti-play? Not sure what to call it tbh but essentially, it's not encouraging movement based gameplay in a game that's supposed to be fast paced generally.

He didn't attack you, go back and read. He told you that you were wrong on each point, that's not attacking. You then swung in being patronising and acting like a superior twat, go and read and realise. Here's each of his replies before you try and claim you were attacked.
"Highly inaccurate:

She doesn't do "one thing". That means you personally are using her for one thing. Nyx, like basically all frames, can be used for multiple playstyles, similar to wukong being made specifically for spy versus an arbitration, khora for defense or just whipping etc.

Many frames use mods for survival and/or Vazarin for example. Any frame can use Adaptation, arcane grace/guardian, quick thinking etc. 

She is far from clunky as well: she can cast some abilities while parkouring making them seamless. It depends on if the player behind Nyx actually knows what they're doing."

"Inaccurate again, it is great and is incredibly useful. An actual experienced player can survive an occasional stray bullet. Whether enemies attack you is also based on proximity.

Mind control is 1 single target...and chaos is a wide aoe if the player chooses. So no...they don't "essentially do the same thing".

"Nyx isn't Xaku, but nice try, her psychic bolts are fine as they are: a quick and instant result for a single button press. Sure it'd be nice to affect more enemies, but I make it work either way. 

Nyx doesn't need to target anyone for chaos. All we have to do now is a single input and you get instant aoe chaos stun. Nyx is not Xaku.

I also don't need my health and shields lowered, either. 

Let's start with tweaks first....I don't agree with this rework at all."

^ None of that is an attack, you just chose got your ego bruised and decided to react like a fool. And you're damn right I defended him because I respect that user.

As for the last bit, that's fair, I can understand that but again you still could've asked him that normally instead of how you chose to. I really have to sleep now and frankly, I don't like you anyway because you simply insist on still trying to be insulting even though if you care to look above, every response to you I've deftly side-stepped the option of insulting you in return, aside from pointing out your superiority complex etc. Just go back and read your first response to the other user after the comments I posted above. And realise the way you're acting. And now it really is sleep time for me, have a wonderful life. I imagine the thread will be locked when I wake up.

 

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11 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I'm just gonna chime in and say that as someone with little to no experience with Nyx, I don't think I should have any say on whether she should or shouldn't have a rework. 

But I will say, I take issue with the argument that frames should be reworked simply because they are "not popular enough". 

I think a better question is, among those that DO play the frame a lot, how many of those people think bigger or more drastic changes are needed? That's the only thing that is relevant. 

I think this is an especially important mindset to have when we have like what 44-45 frames and climbing as long as the game still lives. 

You simply cannot expect all of them to have anywhere near high or even decent useage stats. With so many frames splitting the pie, and there will always be a handful of king of the hills for certain popular gamemodes, you simply cannot stop that from happening. 

So what is more important is making sure that those who do regularly use a frame that is more niche in popularity, feel that the frame is still in a good place.

If so, drastic "rework style" changes, will do more harm than good in the long run. 

SPOT ON.

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2 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

This subject has been brought up so many times. 

Nyx works well enough at present. The new psychic bolts is devastatingly effective. Everything else pretty much is as it was. The issue is she now has competing requirements to maximize ability effectiveness. In other words, you have to give up range for her CC to power her new PB. 

That means Nyx has two problems. Less range for her (soft) defensive abilities and her innate defense is practically nil--125 armor means bupkiss on it's own. 

I'd like to see her CC made harder and I'd like to see more attention paid to her passive defense. Also, since DE seems intent on giving her more offense, I'd like to see MC reworked so it's more effective with less pointless hassle in getting it working. 

Oh, and I don't even want to hear anything about Helminth. It was not a good idea and never should have happened. 

So. 

Mind control. Quit pissing around with fiddly nonsense and just boost the damage 1000% and call it good. That's damage; it'll kill stuff and be an asset on the battlefield. Then add an aggro component to the MC victim so it can actually contribute to both CC and Nyx' defense. It's a berserker unit under Nyx' aegis that will inevitably expire when MC does. Sucks to be mind controlled, yes? Yes. This appeals on several levels. 

Psychic Bolts. Fine as it is now. 

Chaos. Mostly fine as it is now. Maybe kick the base range up 15% to compensate for loss due to PB modding strategies. 

Absorb. Make the assimilate mod baseline. Change the mod so it either allows full runspeed or maybe even more range under the hamsterball. Heck, make mods for both. There's your choices and it makes Nyx more flexible on the battlefield. 

That passive. It could be left alone in light of the stuff above, but it should actually do something useful all the time--or at least all the time Nyx is actually in combat. I have a number of thoughts on this, but the simplest would be to give her an accuracy debuff like Titania has on her pixie-form, but with it affecting enemies under the effects of Chaos. Or you could make it like Gara's hard CC passive, just as an accuracy debuff from being too close to Nyx. Latter is simpler and certainly less fiddly. 

I like it. My personal opinion on Chaos is that it could be synergised with Mind Control to do increased damage for any enemy under the effects of Chaos so you could synergise it by casting Psychic bolts to remove armour, then the increased would actually significantly clear the enemies. I like the idea you have for Mind Control.

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31 minutes ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

If I recall correctly, Nyx is liked by some of the higher MR players due to her easy instant Armor removal in Steel Path and because she can do the whole "Maim Trading" thing, wherein you get two Nyx's and bounce their built up damage off of each other while two other teammates damage you.

There's one other reason it's the high MRs. For a fair while, the fastest way to farm kuva was to use Nyx. Then SP came in and everyone was hitting up Uranus with Khora. And now that they removed that particular farm with how Steel Essence is now gathered, I imagine Nyx is once more the fastest means of farming kuva. So that will boost the usage a little.

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27 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I'm just gonna chime in and say that as someone with little to no experience with Nyx, I don't think I should have any say on whether she should or shouldn't have a rework. 

But I will say, I take issue with the argument that frames should be reworked simply because they are "not popular enough". 

I think a better question is, among those that DO play the frame a lot, how many of those people think bigger or more drastic changes are needed? That's the only thing that is relevant. 

I think this is an especially important mindset to have when we have like what 44-45 frames and climbing as long as the game still lives. 

You simply cannot expect all of them to have anywhere near high or even decent useage stats. With so many frames splitting the pie, and there will always be a handful of king of the hills for certain popular gamemodes, you simply cannot stop that from happening. 

So what is more important is making sure that those who do regularly use a frame that is more niche in popularity, feel that the frame is still in a good place.

If so, drastic "rework style" changes, will do more harm than good in the long run. 

Why would you take issue with that? That was Zephyr's reason for being changed, people aren't expecting the Warframe to jump in usage like Wukong did or something, they're expecting the Warframe to perform well in most types of content. Well, if they're trying to be more realistic instead of trying to make Nyx another Mesa.

Popularity is a pretty good indicator of what needs changing as a baseline, it's why DE nerfed Catchmoon and Bramma, they absolutely dominated the usage statistics, so they needed to reel them back to see the scales balance out more. That's the real goal at the end of the day, is just seeing more options on the table having uses than just a few things absolutely dominating. It's how Rivens have been balanced and for the most part they've been doing well.

DE is just trying to offer more variety in the long run, and as you stated already, it's not possible to make everything perfectly balanced. They're just doing their best to get there in order to make everyone happy, as much as they can anyway.


Though yes, DE should be asking the people who do play Nyx religiously what they would like changed, taking their words with more weight while keeping the general forums' opinion in mind. The issue there is the vocal minority of hardcore Nyx mains in this case mostly want her unchanged, either because they like her as is or because they're afraid of DE nerfing some current aspect of her. However, if it hasn't already been apparent, DE is going to change Warframes quite often whenever they feel they need a change (which if we look at usage statistics, is all but inevitable for Nyx). Unless DE comes out and says "yeah no we're not changing this guy anymore" I don't see why we can't offer our feedback so DE has less of a chance at ruining what people like about her.

Edited by (XBOX)Graysmog
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6 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

There's one other reason it's the high MRs. For a fair while, the fastest way to farm kuva was to use Nyx. Then SP came in and everyone was hitting up Uranus with Khora. And now that they removed that particular farm with how Steel Essence is now gathered, I imagine Nyx is once more the fastest means of farming kuva. So that will boost the usage a little.

That is another use, but I agree, that's more likely to be very miniscule in the grand scheme of things. I'm fairly certain Nyx isn't at the bottom of the usage statistics because of everything previously mentioned (that spot is possibly reserved for Hydroid), but she's certainly nowhere near the middle.

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10 minutes ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

That is another use, but I agree, that's more likely to be very miniscule in the grand scheme of things. I'm fairly certain Nyx isn't at the bottom of the usage statistics because of everything previously mentioned (that spot is possibly reserved for Hydroid), but she's certainly nowhere near the middle.

Sounds about right yeh. And the fun thing about Hydroid is that even though the usage is low, those who main him enjoy the abilities and I believe most of them just want some more fashion options for him and they'll be happy.

Edited by -CdG-Zilchy
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15 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

That's not proof tho.

Tell me at which point the devs said they won't rework anything because of Helminth.

Which is by the way already untrue since they just reworked Zephyr and bunch of other Warframe abilities.

The proof is the existence of the system. Why would the Helminth system be necessary in a game that was actually balanced, where each playable class was unique and relevant? 
The Helminth system is there so we, the players can rework the halfway decent frames, and then DE can directly target the outliers.

That’s not what the devs said, it’s what I say when I look at the evidence.

Edited by _R_o_g_u_e_
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18 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

This will be my last reply to you because quite frankly, I'm sick of your attempts to act like such a superior twat. So after this, yeh, I don't care what you say, you just seem to like making long essays to try and make yourself intelligent and yeh, you're not worth the time it takes to read all that rubbish and then reply to your waffle just to be insulted by you again. Please note I'm going to ignore any point where you try to be rude, just as I did before, even you insist on going that route again and again. Pathetic really. Please note I've been also talking to 3 other users this entire time with differing opinions to mine and neither of us have decided to insult the other. 

This is it guys! The last reply!!1! Will they take their ball and go home as promised the past three times, or will we see them next Tuesday?

18 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

In pretty much every point you've replied to here you've tried to imply I'm stupid which makes you not worth responding to. I've told you my opinion on statistics, you're allowed to disagree but you're a tool for saying the other person's opinion is crap instead of just laying out your opinion the same way I've been doing. My assessment of Wukong is not incorrect, my assessment of how he is used by casuals supports his popularity and if you can't figure that out there's no helping you nor do I care to. In your defense I will say that the last few threads on Wukong's issues have been deleted by mods so that is impossible to backtrack and find for a user who's not frequent on here. Essentially it boils down to 2 things, public matching where you're always going to find the worst offenders and cloud walker being used to simply ignore the game until someone else does the objective for you so you can fly to the exit for your rewards. In general any frame that promotes lazy play isn't really healthy for the game as it promotes I guess anti-play? Not sure what to call it tbh but essentially, it's not encouraging movement based gameplay in a game that's supposed to be fast paced generally.

This is a lot of butthurt that seems to all boil down to you thinking I'm a big meanie. Interesting how you've been so ready to dish it out across this whole thread, but break down into what comes as close to crying via text as one can get the moment you get even a little pushback. I haven't implied you're stupid, but I do think you've made many claims that have been erroneous, misinformed, or outright fabricated, while attacking other users and their credentials in a long list of posts that have ultimately all failed to contribute positively to discussion. Part of the problem is that you also make no effort to substantiate your claims, e.g. with the Wukong threads, and instead expect to be taken up on your word, while expressing dismay when people don't do so.

18 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

He didn't attack you, go back and read. He told you that you were wrong on each point, that's not attacking. You then swung in being patronising and acting like a superior twat, go and read and realise. Here's each of his replies before you try and claim you were attacked.

^ None of that is an attack, you just chose got your ego bruised and decided to react like a fool. And you're damn right I defended him because I respect that user.

As your own post clearly shows, that user was in fact being patronizing, while making jabs at my skill and that of anyone who disagreed with them (e.g. "It depends on if the player behind Nyx actually knows what they're doing."). I don't see who you're attempting to convince with your apologetics here, but it also doesn't surprise me that you'd find kinship in a user infamous for their toxicity on these forums. Who knows, if you follow their example and continue with the attitude you're displaying on this thread, perhaps you'll receive the same warning points they did not long ago.

18 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

As for the last bit, that's fair, I can understand that but again you still could've asked him that normally instead of how you chose to.

Oh no, how dare I treat that person the way they treated me! It's impressive how you can't even conceded to a simple mistake without trying to pivot onto something completely different. You made a mistake here, and that's that.

18 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I really have to sleep now and frankly, I don't like you anyway because you simply insist on still trying to be insulting even though if you care to look above, every response to you I've deftly side-stepped the option of insulting you in return, aside from pointing out your superiority complex etc. Just go back and read your first response to the other user after the comments I posted above. And realise the way you're acting. And now it really is sleep time for me, have a wonderful life. I imagine the thread will be locked when I wake up.

Oh no, you dislike me, how will I ever recover! But really, I don't see how you expect me to believe you here when you've been called out by multiple people now for being insulting to many more users beyond just myself, and have been outright calling me names in your latest reply. I suggest you reconsider your approach to discussion on this thread when you come back to it, as while you've failed to move conversation forward an inch, you've certainly succeeded in drawing a lot of negative attention to yourself.

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For me it is the lack of synergy within her kit. Mind Control isn't exactly great, Psychic Bolts are okay but niche. Chaos has it use but is unreliable. Assimilation just seems weirdly out of place.  All of her abilities are okay when taken a look at them without the others in context. But there is zero synergy between them. More modern or updated warframe kits have combinations which make one or two other abilities a bit more useful.

I would add something like enemies affected by Chaos and struck by Psychic Bolts have a chance to be mind controlled. Assimilation is such a weird thing in her kit, that I would replace it with something else. For example an aura ability for team resistance buffs, damage reflect etc that is fueled by sacrificing mind controlled minions. (1 still  initiates Mind Control, but holding down 1 rapidly drains health from mind controlled enemies and fuels the new ultimate aura)

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57 minutes ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

The proof is the existence of the system. Why would the Helminth system be necessary in a game that was actually balanced, where each playable class was unique and relevant? 
The Helminth system is there so we can’t rework the halfway decent frames, and then DE can directly target the outliers.

That’s not what the devs said, it’s what I say when I look at the evidence.

Yeah sure

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I just want to point out that people often forget that Absorb is the name of Nyx's 4, not Assimilate. I like to imagine this is because the augment is basically a requirement for the ability to function, so it may as well be the ability, but sure it could be both names starting with A.

In any case, I already suggested Assimilate be made part of the ability in this thread, so I shall give praise to our Savior Augments! Making useless abilities usable...

See also: Explosive Legerdemain, Prolonged Paralysis, Spectrosiphon, Greedy Pull, etc.

Edited by (XBOX)Regxxh
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6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 

Care to share your total time played and Nyx/Nyx Prime usage statistics? Because Nyx's total play rate on Playstation is still an abysmal 0.6%, so at that point it is more likely that the tiny handful of people who think she has no problems are deluded, and it's not everyone else who's wrong.

"Sure, feel free to check my profile, which should show that I am by no means the most experienced Nyx player around, even if I have played her some small amount. It is interesting that you felt personally concerned here when it was not your credentials I was checking, but another user's, and you should perhaps let others speak from time to time. It is similarly cute of you to try to turn the tables, but the issue there is that I've never tried to argue based on any self-professed expertise with Nyx. Madurai-Prime did, and while I have no doubts about your own credentials given that I'd seen your profile already, I am genuinely curious if the latter is telling the truth as well."
My personal usage statistics, alone, aren't the point or the issue. Usage statistics aren't a "see I'm right" button. The point is that minorities are allowed to exist, and usage data doesn't tell the full story. Hypothetically, I could be some guy that plays on multiple platforms, skewing my usage data for example. My trinity is above my Nyx prime when I only use trinity for soloing Tridolons. I may use wukong for relic captures sometimes, or a sprint Gauss etc. But when I want to do all 3 sorties without changing my arsenal, or do 45min in steel path for fun, I'm using Nyx. 
You could use "usage statistics" to say that McDonalds is better than your local burger place, and say more local burger places need to find out how to properly give their customers stomach problems for cheap because the usage data shows more people use McDonald's, when we all know McDonald's is for people on the move that need something cheap and fast. This is basically wukong vs Nyx. But nyx doesn't need cloudwalker.....I just use Nyx over wukong when it actually matters. I'm only using wukong for repeated relic caps instead of actually playing wukong because i want to. And fyi i did make a separate Nyx build with some sprint mods and that Helminth speed ability to run fissures instead as well. I can speed run and just use weapons running through the map.
Why would I farm plat and spam fissures to sell full Prime sets, even selling Nezha and guandao prime when I didn't even have them mastered yet....to buy Nyx Pasithea skin? Because I use Nyx. 
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41 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:
My personal usage statistics, alone, aren't the point or the issue. Usage statistics aren't a "see I'm right" button. The point is that minorities are allowed to exist, and usage data doesn't tell the full story. Hypothetically, I could be some guy that plays on multiple platforms, skewing my usage data for example. My trinity is above my Nyx prime when I only use trinity for soloing Tridolons. I may use wukong for relic captures sometimes, or a sprint Gauss etc. But when I want to do all 3 sorties without changing my arsenal, or do 45min in steel path for fun, I'm using Nyx. 
You could use "usage statistics" to say that McDonalds is better than your local burger place, and say more local burger places need to find out how to properly give their customers stomach problems for cheap because the usage data shows more people use McDonald's, when we all know McDonald's is for people on the move that need something cheap and fast. This is basically wukong vs Nyx. But nyx doesn't need cloudwalker.....I just use Nyx over wukong when it actually matters. I'm only using wukong for repeated relic caps instead of actually playing wukong because i want to. And fyi i did make a separate Nyx build with some sprint mods and that Helminth speed ability to run fissures instead as well. I can speed run and just use weapons running through the map.
Why would I farm plat and spam fissures to sell full Prime sets, even selling Nezha and guandao prime when I didn't even have them mastered yet....to buy Nyx Pasithea skin? Because I use Nyx. 
  1. Please learn to use the quote function properly, as your post is a mess.
  2. Your instant 180 from "Nyx is good because I say so, and I get to say so because I play her" to "My personal usage statistics aren't the point" is a pretty clear indicator that you don't actually play Nyx as much as you were trying to convince others. Please try to refrain from arguing from personal credentials if you don't have said credentials.
  3. I couldn't agree more, usage statistics aren't an automatic "see I'm right" button. Thank you for dismantling the crux of your friend's position on this thread.
  4. I also agree that usage data doesn't tell the full story... which is why one also has to listen to the playerbase, and what the playerbase as a whole has been saying for quite some time is that Nyx really isn't in a good spot. The latter seems to be what bothers you, which is presumably why you've been trying to talk down to everyone who's been criticizing the frame. Minorities are certainly allowed to exist, but when a frame's minority playerbase could easily be made larger if the frame were improved, I fail to see why one would keep the frame in a bad spot. The problem here isn't that you're being oppressed, but that you feel entitled to preferential treatment that you're not getting, hence presumably why you felt the need to swing about a Nyx playtime that, by all evidence, appears to have been greatly exaggerated.
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Holy hell batman, don't you lot play the game anymore, :tongue: all these multiplicative quotes box's are like speed bumps to my eyeballs. :laugh:

The walls of text remind me of this. Rlkj4pp.gif interesting read though, the passion is strong in here.

Spoiler

 

Someone say popcorn to keep from starving while reading all this I have spare if you don't mind slobber.

8P3eLT0.gifYlTqB.jpg

 

 

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