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Nekros and his summons


Draelocke

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1 hour ago, xZeromusx said:

Is 100 energy really that significant of a cost? Especially on a frame that can literally roll a loot table twice on dead enemies? Also, people have laid out reasons for why the ability, particularly when augmented, is an amazing ability.

1. Aggro draw

2. Redirecting damage with augment, reaching 90% damage reduction before any other form of damage reduction, meaning unlike many frames, he's able to reach 99%+ damage reduction.

3. Augment also redirects ALL status effects. This even means self inflicted knockdowns from explosive weapons.

Also, you can still get ALL of those benefits while also using Defile and Despoil at 25m range if you just run the right build. So, you shouldn't have ANY issues with energy. But, if you still are, may I suggest using Dispensary + Arcane Energize? Then, not only do you have infinite energy, but also infinite universal ammo to let you to also use Archguns infinitely.

You can literally subsume like 2-3 better forms of aggro draw onto Nekros that’s better than his shadows.

100 energy is the most expensive an ability can be, so yes it is. And no it’s not a matter of it being too energy hungry. it’s a matter of it being Nekros most expensive ability and it’s about as worthless as soul punch.

You technically need to kill 9 enemies for shadows to give its full effect when you cast it. And those 9 enemies could be used to build up adaptation before being killed. So you’re wrong on it being Nekros fastest tank option.

You’re really riding that status immunity hard. It’s a nice thing to have, but it’s not like some mandatory thing a frame needs to be even remotely usable.

Look dude, if you don’t want Shadows of the Dead improved or reworked just say so.

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6 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Even the OP said that he literally apologized to his squad because he used Shadows

How does that make what you said, constructive?

No offense, but you do know what constructive feedback means right? The post is about a rework, and youre talking about the ops playstyle instead. 

Im gonna leave it here, this is disruptive to the op and i cant break it down any further.

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36 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You can literally subsume like 2-3 better forms of aggro draw onto Nekros that’s better than his shadows.

The subsume goes to soul punch, not his shadows. His shadows give him more DR and more DR means you can stay in missions longer or sweat less. And you have build flexibility with his shadows being able to replace the need for defense mods, dropping adaptation for an aug to a subsumed ability or creep terr, or whatever other mod you fancy 

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On 2021-04-09 at 12:56 AM, -AncientWarrior- said:

 make them look different to normal enemies would satisfy me :)  

This is what i want, like the weapons and auras that enemies have can stay the same on the shadows but their body should be something else. Idc if it just looks like a person with a sheet over their whole body with two holes as eyes for every shadow, like this guy

[Spoiler]

Halloween Disney GIF by filmeditor

[/Spoiler]

just make them look like anything but the normal enemy look

I think it gives everyone a headache after a while of mistaking those things as enemies

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9 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

The subsume goes to soul punch, not his shadows. His shadows give him more DR and more DR means you can stay in missions longer or sweat less. And you have build flexibility with his shadows being able to replace the need for defense mods, dropping adaptation for an aug to a subsumed ability or creep terr, or whatever other mod you fancy 

Both abilities are equally bad. Subsume either, but at least Soul punch doesn’t negatively effect anything for a long duration. You subsume Resonator over shadows and you get a very powerful aggro draw without reducing the enemy spawn limit.

Shadows don’t even come close to matching a Nekros tank build that revolves around his 3 and health conversion. Nekros doesn’t have enough good abilities to need build flexibility. He has been solely reliant on his 3 for years now.

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)GearsMatrix301:

An ability that costs 100 energy, has a long cast animation, and requires upkeep needs to provide more than aggro draw.

Especially on a frame who’s tanky enough to not need aggro draw in the first place.

The Question is, what else would you cast ? With Equilibrium you also get Energy from Health Orbs and its even hard to dump your Energy Pool even when you try it. 
Ppl already had explained why you are on the wrong way about the shadows but you just dont want to hear it. Play as you like but dont spread such stuff to new player just because you want to "win" a forum discussion. 
I had even show you some very simplified Math about the Shadows and you come up with energy cost/efficiency ... on Nekros. Oo
Take a Look at the actual Equilibrium / HC / Shadows Build with Synth Fiber & Smeeta / Panzer. Than hop solo into a Steelpath survival and stay there for 2h and compare it with your "build". As stated before...when its just a "Forum War" thing...just drop the topic and move on, play as you like and as long you had fun everything is fine.

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11 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You subsume Resonator over shadows and you get a very powerful aggro draw without reducing the enemy spawn limit.

Resonator is limited range hard taunt instead of extremely high soft taunt, also shadows dont take up spawn slots (havent since harrow or PoE) but do in fact take up total map unit slots (which is always 20+ above spawn cap) which means paused enemies (ones you skipped over and are in prior rooms with no player within 3-4 tiles) cycle in faster.

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2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Resonator is limited range hard taunt instead of extremely high soft taunt, also shadows dont take up spawn slots (havent since harrow or PoE) but do in fact take up total map unit slots (which is always 20+ above spawn cap) which means paused enemies (ones you skipped over and are in prior rooms with no player within 3-4 tiles) cycle in faster.

So they still limit the spawn limit then.

Also, Resonator may have a smaller range, but it directly moves towards enemies, unlike shadows. So it’s effective range is technically bigger and spreads faster.

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11 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

So they still limit the spawn limit then.

Also, Resonator may have a smaller range, but it directly moves towards enemies, unlike shadows. So it’s effective range is technically bigger and spreads faster.

You keep citing spawn limit, but with Nekros' Defile, you're still netting a positive to the total drops of the mission. Your focus on these 7 spots is a very minor issue when the other dozens of spots that ARE spawning are getting rolled more than once. You really can't spare a handful of potential enemy spawns for this ability?

Resonator also disappears instantly when it hits a nullifying bubble because it chases after enemies, and will chase itself right into the bubble. Its damage also does nothing to said bubble, as only Mallet actually causes damage to nullifier bubbles when Mallet is damaged. It can also lead enemies on a wild goose chase around the map, making you and your team have to track them down as they possibly run away from you, making endless defenses take longer, resulting in a less enemies killed per second. Resonator works well with Octavia, because it pairs with Mallet to kill them off. It also works well with frames like Khora since she relies on her strangle dome which will automatically pick enemies off the roller, and hold them in place so you don't have to chase them.

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On 2021-04-11 at 8:57 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

This is what i want, like the weapons and auras that enemies have can stay the same on the shadows but their body should be something else. Idc if it just looks like a person with a sheet over their whole body with two holes as eyes for every shadow, like this guy

[Spoiler]

Halloween Disney GIF by filmeditor

[/Spoiler]

just make them look like anything but the normal enemy look

I think it gives everyone a headache after a while of mistaking those things as enemies

I agree with this sentiment. I would like a different enemy model too. However, I think with the correct energy color, you can adequately set them apart.

A more annoying aspect to the shadows is when you summon a nullifier or arctic eximus shadow, and their barriers unintentionally work against you by blocking you from firing through them.

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2 hours ago, xZeromusx said:

You keep citing spawn limit, but with Nekros' Defile, you're still netting a positive to the total drops of the mission. Your focus on these 7 spots is a very minor issue when the other dozens of spots that ARE spawning are getting rolled more than once. You really can't spare a handful of potential enemy spawns for this ability?

Resonator also disappears instantly when it hits a nullifying bubble because it chases after enemies, and will chase itself right into the bubble. Its damage also does nothing to said bubble, as only Mallet actually causes damage to nullifier bubbles when Mallet is damaged. It can also lead enemies on a wild goose chase around the map, making you and your team have to track them down as they possibly run away from you, making endless defenses take longer, resulting in a less enemies killed per second. Resonator works well with Octavia, because it pairs with Mallet to kill them off. It also works well with frames like Khora since she relies on her strangle dome which will automatically pick enemies off the roller, and hold them in place so you don't have to chase them.

*Desecrate.

The point still stands that you’re reducing the amount of loot you could potentially get. And in a game where farming loot is one of the key gameplay aspects, that’s not good. Now if the ability offered more than it does this issue would be minimized, but right now it doesn’t offer enough to justify its negatives.

Nullifiers suck for every frame.

Shadows can also split off from Where Nekros is, so having to go back and kill enemies that are focused on them is an issue with them too.

 

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16 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

So they still limit the spawn limit then.

Except as i explained they quite literally dont and speed up paused rotation if there is any.

16 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also, Resonator may have a smaller range, but it directly moves towards enemies, unlike shadows. So it’s effective range is technically bigger and spreads faster.

No, increased aggro rating is entire active tile wide unless you enter into melee of a enemy.

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5 hours ago, xZeromusx said:

A more annoying aspect to the shadows is when you summon a nullifier or arctic eximus shadow, and their barriers unintentionally work against you by blocking you from firing through them.

Innate PT against the shadows+anything for all really should be default much like a reverse on terrify and its augment to not hinder allies that go for headshots (where aug would be the damage buff and default terrify slows; however DE took that suggestion and buffing nekros to have a proper passive in form of lifesteal thats shared in desecrate range and slapped it in place of the coffin ability of wraith).

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I see GearsMatrix301 has expanded his horizons and is now being hilariously, impressively, defiantly wrong about frames other than Revenant. Honestly surprised that some people still take the time to argue with him, it's like talking to a wall. A wall that is always wrong.

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9 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

*Desecrate.

The point still stands that you’re reducing the amount of loot you could potentially get. And in a game where farming loot is one of the key gameplay aspects, that’s not good. Now if the ability offered more than it does this issue would be minimized, but right now it doesn’t offer enough to justify its negatives.

Nullifiers suck for every frame.

Shadows can also split off from Where Nekros is, so having to go back and kill enemies that are focused on them is an issue with them too.

 

Nullifiers are able to have their bubbles popped by ranged attacks from your shadows, making them actually not annoying at all.

While Shadows can run off, they are also slower to move, and ranged ones tend to utilize cover near by, meaning they tend to remain closer overall. Further, they don't top the list for aggro like the Resonator does. Enemies will still move to their primary objective even while firing at the shadows. "Aggro soak" is probably not the right word for what the shadows do. It is more like how Mirage's Hall of Mirrors provides more targets for enemies to fire at. Unlike with Resonator, where it turns off their AI and redirects their pathing and makes them chase the roller, the Shadows merely distract them while they continue on their normal pathing. So, they don't interfere as much overall.

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1 hour ago, xZeromusx said:

Enemies will still move to their primary objective even while firing at the shadows. "Aggro soak" is probably not the right word for what the shadows do.

Nah aggro draw is the correct word/terminology (as its essentially a high threat target), its resonator (and to a degree mallet) that are the outliers in being actual ai overrides (hard scripted behaviour that turns off all other ai behaviour while under it), which would be a step above "new commands" to ai like guardian derision (aka MMO hard taunt equivalent) that still follow regular actions after (tho can be abused by repeat tapping of block).

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vor 21 Stunden schrieb ebrl:

I see GearsMatrix301 has expanded his horizons and is now being hilariously, impressively, defiantly wrong about frames other than Revenant. Honestly surprised that some people still take the time to argue with him, it's like talking to a wall. A wall that is always wrong.

Just ignorance. As every time you encounter someone like this they change their argumentation on the fly, when it shows that their point just wrong.

When I look into this discussion I really doubt that he ever played Nekros in solo SP Survival. Maybe running some normal Starchart Missions and than come to the conclusion "shadows are worthless I can tank the stuff without it".  ^^

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Thanks for the constructive posts. I expected some amount of backlash, but some of you added some good ideas. So thanks for that.

My major annoyance factor is how easy it is to mistake them as the enemy. Does anyone else remember when you could spawn a nearly infinite amount of shadows? I'm a pretty talkative guy in game as it is, so when I do apologize for breaking them out, with adaptation and an Umbra mod, you can be sure things are getting real, lol. It almost always gets another discussion going. I also have 8 forma on my Nekros as it is, still waiting on picking up another Aura Forma and I'm debating on using an Umbra Forma on him.

There's just something about using Ripkas with Amalgam Ripkas True Steel (100% Gore Chance) with the Vermillion Storm stance that makes him play just like Edward Scissorhands and I dig it. Right now I'm built for Strength anyway so I augmented Ash's Shuriken ability that can slice and dice things through walls, while using Despoil it's pretty much a free cast. I could replace his 4 instead though with something like: Ore Gaze with augment for more bonus loot chances, or maybe Blood Altar would be a good fit for AoE healing. When you get down to it though, I'd rather be able to modify the appearance of the summons themselves to make them less offensive and go back to using his natural 1 ability. So, no, dying them neon pink wouldn't be the best of ideas.

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