Toxin damage from some infested enemies and their interaction with shields

[Xikto]

Toxin damage bypasses SHIELDS! while this is almost never used on player side it has a devastating effect when utalized by enemies (i am not talking about the proc, that is fine, the dmg itself bypasses shields) for example some attacks from toxic ancients and their eximus version, for example sanguine eximus will quite literally insta kill ALL of my shield frames.
This list includes Harrow, Volt, Mag, Protea, HIldryn etc and ofc it will also insta kill any other squishy frames, doesn't matter that you have full shields, doesn't matter if you 7 thousands shields, doesn't matter if you have overshields, you get hit by a SINGLE toxin dmg attack and you are now dead!

Idk why this didn't get changed when they made shield gates, but if you ask me, this should get changed!

Just make it so it so it can at max deal half ur HP in one hit or something like that! or maybe just reduce the base damage of toxin attacks so it doesn't one shot or sth! similar to toxin spores from drones that deal significant damage, but don't one shot. that is how it should work, not instant death moves!

Also given how many of these bugers we have in infested mission i fully understand that it shouldn't be made ez, it just shouldn't be unfair!

Here have a look at this, i can't tell you how many arbitrations have ended in an instant because of this! 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1luCOp6pVsIcUQejwQkshA0Syd5GwILb-/view?usp=sharing

(PS i am fully aware there wil be a bunch of people saying "oh just don't get hit" so here is your anwser already: Warframe is a horde shooter not a game where you have full visibility on ur enemy and can predict what happens, even a single one of these is instant death)

[NinjaZeku]

3 minutes ago, Xikto said:

this is almost never used on player side

... what's with these sweeping generalizations lately?

Players don't sprint, they don't use Toxin damage to bypass Shields, what's next, where is this leading to?

I'm scared.

6 minutes ago, Xikto said:

Idk why this didn't get changed when they made shield gates

To be fair, Toxin attacks are usually decently well telegraphed, just don't jump into that huge green fart gas Toxin cloud,
and in general take care of Ancients, preferrably at range, before they have a chance to pull any of their shenanigans.

10 minutes ago, Xikto said:

PS i am fully aware there wil be a bunch of people saying "oh just don't get hit"

Yeah I didn't read ahead when I made the previous point :P

But still tho, if you're blindly rushing into Melee range with a Faction that's supposed to excel in Melee range,
and you've been punished for it repeatedly, yet keep doing it, I'm not entirely sure it's the game that needs to change.

[Xikto]

13 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

But still tho, if you're blindly rushing into Melee range with a Faction that's supposed to excel in Melee range

M8 that is just an example, there is so many of them getting hit once is almost inevitable, also that gas cloud is also one of many, that is also just a fakin example m8, there is tons of different eximus infested that can do the one shot thing, including some eximus charger btw, i don't like melee in general i am not a melee spammer, but still there is so many of them that the second one is in range ur dead! that is just bad design m8!

[BlackAce]

9 minutes ago, Xikto said:

but still there is so many of them that the second one is in range ur dead! that is just bad design m8!

Then don't get into their range. If you see one make them priority targets. @NinjaZekualready shows how easy it is to spot them and anticipate their attacks. This is just a case of "you bad, git gud" as much as I hate to say it.

[Xikto]

1 minute ago, acevezwing said:

you bad, git gud

It is almost like WF is a horde shooter, and it is almost like infested are known to be so fakin many that they you can't even take the time to read all their names before you start killing, it is almost like they are meant to overrun you by their count and it is almost you can have 10 of them at once by the time you reach 20 minute in arbitration/steelpath.
but what do i know aparently i am the one that needs to "git gud"

[NekroArts]

49 minutes ago, Xikto said:

It is almost like WF is a horde shooter, and it is almost like infested are known to be so fakin many that they you can't even take the time to read all their names before you start killing, it is almost like they are meant to overrun you by their count and it is almost you can have 10 of them at once by the time you reach 20 minute in arbitration/steelpath.
but what do i know aparently i am the one that needs to "git gud"

The infested are a great example of why having few enemy diversity is a good thing. Not too many that when you put them side-by-side you can tell the difference automatically just by appearance and not by name. 

[BiancaRoughfin]

1 hour ago, Xikto said:

Toxin damage bypasses SHIELDS! while this is almost never used on player side it has a devastating effect when utalized by enemies

Its nothing new that Toxic bypasses shields, its one of the reasons why its so good, especially against Corpus and one of the reasons Gas damage used to be great as the Gas Proc would cause Toxic damage to enemies around it.

And yes, people do use Toxic only weapons when dealing with Corpus in some missions, specially Sorties with Enhanced Shields or some Steel Path endless missions.

1 hour ago, Xikto said:

For example some attacks from toxic ancients and their eximus version, for example sanguine eximus will quite literally insta kill ALL of my shield frames.
This list includes Harrow, Volt, Mag, Protea, HIldryn etc and ofc it will also insta kill any other squishy frames, doesn't matter that you have full shields, doesn't matter if you 7 thousands shields, doesn't matter if you have overshields, you get hit by a SINGLE toxin dmg attack and you are now dead!

Thats why you still have to build Shield based frames with Health. :3

1 hour ago, Xikto said:

Idk why this didn't get changed when they made shield gates, but if you ask me, this should get changed!

Because there is no need for it to be changed. Its been a thing from the begining, people like it as is and gives us the option to build to properly deal with shielded enemies.

1 hour ago, Xikto said:

Just make it so it so it can at max deal half ur HP in one hit or something like that! or maybe just reduce the base damage of toxin attacks so it doesn't one shot or sth! similar to toxin spores from drones that deal significant damage, but don't one shot. that is how it should work, not instant death moves!

I watched your Video, if you know its that dangerous, why dont you try dealing with it from a distance? Its been known for years now that Toxic Ancients can deal AoE damage that bypasses shields and that Toxic Ancients are that dangerous yet people insist on trying to Melee them.

 

[ebrl]

2 hours ago, Xikto said:

Toxin damage bypasses SHIELDS!

I mean, yes, that's the whole thing about toxin damage. Glad to see everyone is on the same page! I didn't really read the rest since everything you need to know about toxin damage is right there. Have a nice day!

[Tiltskillet]

 

5 hours ago, Xikto said:

It is almost like WF is a horde shooter, and it is almost like infested are known to be so fakin many that they you can't even take the time to read all their names before you start killing, it is almost like they are meant to overrun you by their count and it is almost you can have 10 of them at once by the time you reach 20 minute in arbitration/steelpath.
but what do i know aparently i am the one that needs to "git gud"

Well I wouldn't put it that way, but you are the one asking to make things easier, so that's a pretty odd use of sarcasm.  

For what it's worth though, I agree  that it's tough to rely on shield hp, situational awareness, and mobility alone against masses of high level infested.   Which is why I'd guess almost nobody tries to do so.    They're going to be combining those things with some combination of shield -gating-, health, armor, resistances, Rolling Guard, invisibility, crowd control, etc.  That's how I get by anyway.

Enhanced shields  and enhanced infested damage up close got added to the game together by the way.  I mean, check this out:  https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1172454-warframe-revised-update-2720/

Quote

 

Infested Damage:
We did not want to overlook the Infested in our review. Infested are close-range enemies that telegraph most attacks - and now if one of those attacks hits you, it simply does more damage. Stay agile, stay moving, and the mission is as good as won! 

Why: Having Infested simply deal more Damage encourages you to use mobility in ways that is not the norm for their ranged counterparts. Rewarding mobility is a key part of Warframe. 

 

 

 

As far as shield feedback goes, I do wish shield hp builds were more viable, and not actively discouraged by gating mechanics.    This would probably need to entail some changes to toxin specifically, but I've only vague notions for what that should look like.

[sunderthefirmament]

10 hours ago, Xikto said:

Toxin damage bypasses SHIELDS! while this is almost never used on player side it has a devastating effect when utalized by enemies (i am not talking about the proc, that is fine, the dmg itself bypasses shields) for example some attacks from toxic ancients and their eximus version, for example sanguine eximus will quite literally insta kill ALL of my shield frames.
This list includes Harrow, Volt, Mag, Protea, HIldryn etc and ofc it will also insta kill any other squishy frames, doesn't matter that you have full shields, doesn't matter if you 7 thousands shields, doesn't matter if you have overshields, you get hit by a SINGLE toxin dmg attack and you are now dead!

Idk why this didn't get changed when they made shield gates, but if you ask me, this should get changed!

Just make it so it so it can at max deal half ur HP in one hit or something like that! or maybe just reduce the base damage of toxin attacks so it doesn't one shot or sth! similar to toxin spores from drones that deal significant damage, but don't one shot. that is how it should work, not instant death moves!

Also given how many of these bugers we have in infested mission i fully understand that it shouldn't be made ez, it just shouldn't be unfair!

Here have a look at this, i can't tell you how many arbitrations have ended in an instant because of this! 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1luCOp6pVsIcUQejwQkshA0Syd5GwILb-/view?usp=sharing

(PS i am fully aware there wil be a bunch of people saying "oh just don't get hit" so here is your anwser already: Warframe is a horde shooter not a game where you have full visibility on ur enemy and can predict what happens, even a single one of these is instant death)

You're getting dogpiled by a lot of people that are missing a basic point.  Before shield gating was added, one hit kills were pretty common in Warframe.  If you weren't playing as a tank frame, you could expect to just get blown up with almost no warning once the enemies hit a high enough level.  This was basically an inevitability, especially before DE nerfed enemy accuracy scaling.

 

Toxin enemies feel out of whack now because they are basically the only thing left that can insta-kill us.  The only other thing that shield gating can't really save us from is getting grappled by a lich.  It's a slow, multi-hit attack that blocks you from acting for its duration, thereby preventing you from auguring or brief respiting.  If you're managing your energy and have Primed Surefooted equipped, you shouldn't really die anymore in this game.  Except to lich grapples and toxin.

 

I like that toxin is unique.  I like that it forces me to think about things.  But it sucks that it's stapled to the least readable, most obnoxious enemy faction.  Toxin feels discordant with the rest of Warframe now.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't have dangerous enemies.  It just feels weird that toxin is so much more dangerous than anything else in this game.  Nothing else even comes close.

[LagartoPunkarra]

11 hours ago, Xikto said:

Toxin damage bypasses SHIELDS! while this is almost never used on player side it has a devastating effect when utalized by enemies (i am not talking about the proc, that is fine, the dmg itself bypasses shields) for example some attacks from toxic ancients and their eximus version, for example sanguine eximus will quite literally insta kill ALL of my shield frames.
This list includes Harrow, Volt, Mag, Protea, HIldryn etc and ofc it will also insta kill any other squishy frames, doesn't matter that you have full shields, doesn't matter if you 7 thousands shields, doesn't matter if you have overshields, you get hit by a SINGLE toxin dmg attack and you are now dead!

Idk why this didn't get changed when they made shield gates, but if you ask me, this should get changed!

Just make it so it so it can at max deal half ur HP in one hit or something like that! or maybe just reduce the base damage of toxin attacks so it doesn't one shot or sth! similar to toxin spores from drones that deal significant damage, but don't one shot. that is how it should work, not instant death moves!

Also given how many of these bugers we have in infested mission i fully understand that it shouldn't be made ez, it just shouldn't be unfair!

Here have a look at this, i can't tell you how many arbitrations have ended in an instant because of this! 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1luCOp6pVsIcUQejwQkshA0Syd5GwILb-/view?usp=sharing

(PS i am fully aware there wil be a bunch of people saying "oh just don't get hit" so here is your anwser already: Warframe is a horde shooter not a game where you have full visibility on ur enemy and can predict what happens, even a single one of these is instant death)

You're an example of someone that doesn't observe and/or prioritize more dangerous enemies. Yes, Toxin damage is bullS#&$ as it's the only type of damage that can insta-kill a player and doesn't help that the faction with the highest enemy density per room is the one that uses it the most, but a good player will always have work-arounds to this.

So basically, if you see a green enemy or an enemy that makes green clouds, those enemies deal Toxin damage and you should deal with them first from a distance and not rush them with melee, as rushing them usually means getting killed.

[DeltaForce245]

Toxic damage would be fine if Toxic Ancients and their heat seeking hook did not exist.