An open discussion about endgame in Warframe

[Zexal]

Hi Tenno!

Today I wanted to talk about endgame. I will start by saying that everything that will be expressed is the result of my experience and that I have agreed with a few of my regular squad mates to speak for all of us (which is about 20 people that are still active, coming from different countries). This group involves multiple profiles such as a “new player” who understands the base mechanics and that has grinded enough to get to our definition of endgame, to the tryhard veteran.

 

We are aware that our opinion isn't representative of the whole community nor it is of the minorities.
I’d like to encourage every one of you to participate to this thread and to keep it constructive in your replies. 

 

I think that we can all agree, and tell me if I'm wrong, that each person has its own definition of endgame.
To me and our group, a “true” endgame involves strategies, difficulty, time, and skills. It is something that needs optimization and knowledge. And it obviously is something to look up to once you are done with the base game (main and secondary quests, reputation, helminth, steel path, focus, etc.). We will develop our thoughts, suggestions and opinion based off of this definition.

I would also like to say that we will only talk about current content in the game, meaning that I won’t mention raids (or at least not in the state they were in) or void keys.

Currently, as what could be defined as the most endgame content in Warframe, we have :

• Eidolons
• Profit-Taker
• Disruption
• Speedrun

For an 8 years old game, that’s not a lot. Endurance runs are now super restricted and are useless. Why would you bother staying 8 hours in a survival mission when there’s no challenge at all? Added the fact that you can get perma banned.

 

Why are these contents so good and endgame related?

Eidolons

In our group, we have seen and played eidolons pre-nerf and the current version.

The previous version, to push it as far as you could, involved time investment : You had to forma your whole entire loadout, know your placements, respect a certain order, know multiple timings, know how to manage your Madurai stacks, …

Now, with the nerf, you can literally take whatever you want, and it will work. The meta has slightly changed, and even with the Multi-threaded Rendering issue fixed, you’re still able to do a 6x3 night cap.

So, what could be improved there?

There’s still a few issues. Vomvalysts spawns and pathfinding have been destroyed since Scarlet Spear (make them rush again!), Hydrolyst’s rain is still spawning wherever it wants to, lures are often soft locked if you dash on them with the Magus Lockdown, …

In terms of mechanic, Eidolons are fine as they are now, I would just fix the aforementioned issues.
You still have to know a lot of things and invest time and energy. But they are now offering more diversity, which isn’t a bad thing. The only challenge is to succeed doing a 6x3 during the night, which, to us, is fine.

 

Profit-Taker

Regarding the Profit-Taker… Well, it’s by far the best boss in Warframe. Copying builds won’t work here, because you actually need and have to play. First, you have to grind for the reputation, which means that you have to get there and grind for it. Then you have to forma your loadout, and not any loadout, but a dedicated loadout specifically for this activity. You also have to understand how the modding system works, so, replicating someone else’s build won’t be enough.

The whole status/element mechanic is great, it really makes sense there for us to have one weapon from each category in our loadout. A primary, a secondary, a melee and an archgun. Also, what a great introduction to the archguns : they have a purpose!

You have to know how to manage corpus units while fighting the Profit-Taker, keeping in mind that you’re getting shot from every angle.
Not only that, you also have to know how to aim at pylons (hi Zenith users) or have a dedicated amp.

Overall, this boss involves everything that we mentioned in our definition of endgame.

It is also something that you can speedrun.

 

Disruption

Disruption has been great since its introduction to the game. An endless mission type with a simple but well-thought rotation system, great drop tables and that are almost everywhere.

To us, this game mode is the most polished that we have. Involving skills, theorycraft, knowledge, mobility, strategy, and time. 

In two hours, you can reach the level cap (9999) with ease.
Unfortunately, today, reaching this cap doesn’t mean anything because of the new health and armor scaling. Sure, you still have Steel Path to get slightly more resistant units, but they’re not as strong as they used to be. You're less of a target, and you have many ways to avoid death. 

What’s challenging in disruption? Beside reaching the cap, you have to memorize each demolyst spawn, and they can change during the run. Is it something to improve? Well, no. It’s a fun mission to do, reaching the cap is awesome and you’re rewarded for your investment.

 

Speedrun

As I am not a speedrunner, I have asked someone that speedruns on a daily basis to share his opinion on this activity.

Quote

I think that you first need motivation, be curious and optimize your stuff. There is no prerequisite to speedrun, you just have to be interested in different techniques, to grind and to practice a lot!
A lot of people think that speedrun is RNG-based when it actually based on your reflexes and your adaptability rather than your muscle memory. As no tile is the same, it allows people to improve.
A good speedrunner is someone who possess the qualities that I have previously mentioned : working on his reflexes, adaptable, curious, with deduction skills.
You don’t need to be super advanced in the game, however, it is something that you can do once you have nothing left to do.

Does it meet our definition? Yes.
Is there things to do related to speedruns? Actually, yes.
A lot of speedrunners are complaining about multiple bugs affecting them. It doesn’t matter if they are a minority or not, these bugs are also affecting regular casual players.
 

List of known bugs :

• Using Razorwing will make your fps drop in solo if you go too fast or even for no reason. It gets worse if you run with multiple Titanias in your squad, forcing your squadmates to uncast.
• Titania is also randomly flying upwards, on her own. This bugs also affects Cloud Walker (Wukong).
• Titania can’t kill nullifiers.
• Titania’s hitbox is messed up.

 

We have these contents, but it seems that it’s hard to develop a real and meaningful endgame in Warframe. Does it mean that we can’t have one? I honestly doubt it.

We thought of multiple things to discuss and to propose, so DE can pick these ideas, and maybe, someday, implement them into the game!

 

Why are we still waiting for an endgame?

We thought about this during days, discussed about it during the last few months and yet, we still have no answer.

Once you’re done with the base objectives, you have to make up the ones that you’d like to complete. The few endgame related content that we have is getting simplified more and more, but why is that?

We came to the conclusion that Warframe is old (obviously) and was never meant to be this big. If you know the history of Warframe, you know that it was DE’s last resort to save the company. Even they said it : they didn’t think that it would be successful.
So now they are stuck with a community that is composed of so many players, and thus, too many profiles. How can you still entertain older and new players? Well, simplify everything! Right? 

As seen multiple times on the forum, veteran players, tryhards or not, are leaving. Not because there’s no endgame, but because everything is getting too simple and too accessible.
There used to be a path to follow in Warframe to get to a certain power level, but now, you can get everything right from the start.

Unfortunately, and we thought that the current situation in the world didn’t help either, people just want to get in a game and play every content that they can, which we completely understand.

 

How does this new player situation affects the endgame content?

We observed on a small part of the community that new players are often discouraged by the amount of content that the game offers. So, is it worth to simplify everything? No. It’s not.

Can DE make something about it? YES!!! Fortunately, yes, it is something that they can fix.

As stated in a previous and personal thread right here, reworking the new player experience would be a solution. Sure, the introduction has been reworked to match the current game and its evolution (in a certain way), but new players are still left in the dark regarding what to do.

As said earlier, people want to play the game instantly. Give them a small tutorial about the whole modding system (without going in depth), the interface, ... Make them navigate through the orbiter and its segments. The codex is obsolete, and so is the introduction quest.
Yes, that would mean reworking the introduction again, but “just” by removing the mission type discovery through the research of the segments. Just add a direct tutorial with on-screen indications after the current introduction. 

From the small part of the community that we observed, we can say that they don’t read or listen to the dialogues. It may be interesting to work on this. New players will be less lost and more inclined in staying instead of giving up after being asked to scan three cephalon fragments!  

It will take some time and a lot of work, but that would be a first step.

 

Is it the only thing to do? Hell no!

Something that we also observed, is the accessibility issue. Keep things locked behind mastery and reputation! It’s working, look at the Profit-Taker. Even though we think that this specific lock is too high since a lot of people complete the prerequisite to properly complete this boss.

Helminth was supposed to be locked behind MR16. It should’ve been kept that way. We also think that considering how the game has evolved, there should be a rebalance of locked items, no matter how old or new they are.

New players don’t have a clear path to follow, and that's why they’re leaving. Being carried here and there isn’t fun, and making them rush to what we call “the endgame content” also make them leave.

In our opinion, DE should give them a clear path to follow. Junctions are obsolete : they give you quests, but which one is a main quest and which one is a secondary? What do we have if we do this quest instead of the other? Not a lot of work should be put into that, but highlighting the star chart would be a solution. Just use the current Quest Guide here! Trace a path in yellow on each planet to indicate the path to follow for a main quest, use an orange trace for secondary quests, and green highlights for mandatory objectives. That’s just a random idea that could be developed in something far better.

Because of the fact that everything is simplifed and accessible, we are stuck with the base content and repetitive nerfs. The last huge nerf being the Steel Path and the Steel Essences.

 

Endgame = Rewards

This is something that we thought of. 

Let's talk about Eidolons again. Before Scarlet Spear, Eidolons rewarded arcanes and people wanted to do them not because they were fun, but because of the carrot on a stick. We are aware that the few remaining hunters are doing them for fun, and not for arcanes. It is good to have diversity in the game, but unfortunately, reward-wise, Eidolons don't have any purpose anymore. 

Does it mean that we should get endgame content with no rewards? No! 

Look at the Profit-Taker, besides a few mods, relics and other drops, there's nothing worth selling there, and people are still doing it for fun and for credits! And I personally think that we're missing this in the latest released content : FUN. 

But let's take Disruption as another example : you can target what you want during rotations, and that is great. You are able to target-farm whatever you want, in the fastest way possible. That's also part of the endgame we're looking for. 

 

We would need something fun, requiring skills, a bit time consuming, team-play, strategies, optimization and locked behind mastery or reputation and not necessarily rewarding... Right? Precisely! 

For a general idea or call it whatever you want, take the Third Orb in the Orb Vallis. There's so many possibilities! 
Make it an 8-players boss : four in Railjack, four in the vallis. Use the Profit-Taker mechanic and the balls on the orb to be complementary. Each one would be weak to a specific element. 

Use the Railjack squad to be a support team, attacking a corpus ship and shooting on Venus, making the orb's shields weaker and triggering a new fight phase using archguns. Let this same squad send ammo or energy pads. And make the last phase Necramech-only! (I am not a fan of them, but at least they would be useful)

We don't know how difficult that would be to do, but Scarlet Spear happened and Railjack has been reworkd twice. Anything is possible then!

As for the rewards (because for this kind of boss they are needed), unreleased arcanes were mentioned in a hotfix last year (it was here then, but it seems that it got edited, or it's just the wrong hotfix) could be an idea.
Add a new weapon, two mods, radiant axi relics and that's it! 

 

Aside from the Third Orb, allowing long runs again while changing the reward system could be fun! The MR29 test was interesting : modifiers while running could be interesting to implement during survivals. Each five minutes you get a new modifier and you still have to survive.
That would be a bit challenging, while allowing the previous scaling to come back for these specific runs. That would also meet our definition of endgame.
A modifier on survival missions, just like nightmares or steel path should be easy to do. 

 

We mentioned speedruns, and Outriders released a few days ago. It rewards players based on the time that they spent in the mission. The quicker you are, the better the rewards.
It has been done in other games, but that's not the point.
Tied to the nightwaves, adding capture or rescue missions to speedrun to get 50-35-25 NW credits once or twice a week could be fun! 

 

If we really need rewards, we thought that the whole system should be revised. For example, let's say that you're doing a capture on Earth, and as an end-of-mission reward you get 50 endo. Make it scale with the Mastery Rank. The same capture for a MR30 player would reward 1500 endo (50*30). At some point, it might become ridiculous. But there should be some kind of reward scaling in base missions tied to the MR of a player. 

During long runs, after five waves, while keeping the base reward (endo/credits), you can also make something like (50*30)*15. 15 being half of the mastery rank, so you don't end up with super ridiculous amounts of endo.

Again, these are just ideas, the main issue being the fact that everything is getting simplified and rewards aren't rewards anymore but just pure grind with no fun.

 

With the evolution of the game, we feel like grinding replaced fun, and rewards are just an argument to justify this grind. Take Arcana bounties, the rewards aren't even that good to justify the grind behind it. It is fun to do a few times, but then you get to a point where it isn't fun anymore.

 

What can we do about it?

We can discuss about it here!
Maybe someone from DE will notice this thread, our opinion and also yours.
Leave your thoughts and ideas, but keep it safe and constructive!

[FSK41]

I cannot agree with everything said in the post but I  certainly support that there needs to be more endgame content for people who are done farming everything. A better (no paper) enemy scaling ,  some endgame rewards (I personally dont mind LOW  droptables as long as A its tied to endgame and not available in some damn bounty or other low level mission/ B worth it , if you want to sell me Infested arcanes as endgame i wont buy it , it doesnt need to be powercreep, it can be cosmetics, certain buffs that do not IMPACT the gameplay as much as a new Arcane Energize or a Kuva Bramma locked behind level 9999 content etc. a small increase to for example the focus system ( the zenurik energy regen lasting 1 minute instead of 30 seconds for example or   gives convenient content that isnt power creep, old players are lazy and would welcome these little changes to give them a feeling they have something that the average player after 500 hours does NOT) There are countless examples and possibilities for rewards. 

 

All in all I SUPPORT the message of the post (even tho i disagree with some aspects) 

[Maryph]

I totally agree with what is being said here, you can't make an endgame content without rewards
SP was the right gamemode to introduce everyone to endless missions, and yet they decided to reward players for completing missions quicker by tying the Essence drops to Acolytes, there's just no needs to do endless SP, unless you want to "test" yourself, I guess.

DE really need to stop simplifying things too, it's just making the game worse unfortunately, and as OP said, new players are just overwhelmed with things to do because you can basically do everything the game has to offer at the beginning, they don't have a clear path to follow
Since the progression in Warframe is "unique" to this game, it can really be frustrating, and they'll eventually quit because of this lack of information on what they have to do.

Nice post ! 

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 30 minutos, Zexal dijo:

I think that we can all agree, and tell me if I'm wrong, that each person has its own definition of endgame.

You are kinda wrong, Endgame reffers to content with high replayability value since it literally means what you do after the end of the game, but hence the kinda since everyone has a different taste so not everyone will replay something nor will enjoy it the same way.

hace 30 minutos, Zexal dijo:

Why are we still waiting for an endgame?

Because nothing in Warframe is worth to replay neither in the rewards nor in the fun value.

hace 30 minutos, Zexal dijo:

Let's talk about Eidolons again. Before Scarlet Spear, Eidolons rewarded arcanes and people wanted to do them not because they were fun, but because of the carrot on a stick. We are aware that the few remaining hunters are doing them for fun, and not for arcanes. It is good to have diversity in the game, but unfortunately, reward-wise, Eidolons don't have any purpose anymore. 

Does it mean that we should get endgame content with no rewards? No! 

Look at the Profit-Taker, besides a few mods, relics and other drops, there's nothing worth selling there, and people are still doing it for fun and for credits! And I personally think that we're missing this in the latest released content : FUN. 

You've got it, the endgame isn't something that will make you replay for its rewards only, it will make you replay for something more that could be and generally is fun.

[Aldain]

While I admire the effort put into this post, I honestly can't bring myself to read all that, so I'm just gonna leave my thoughts on the topic.

Overall no matter the definition there is an inherent issue to be had in many games, and that is balance.

The balance of Warframe has been off for years now, many have argued about which direction the game should go in (and some have even given the "argument" that PvE games don't need nerfs) and it hasn't quite found a satisfying conclusion as of yet.

I don't think we can discuss anything about endgame with the current overall imbalance that needs to be addressed, both long time and new players are suffering due to the statistical imbalances throughout Warframe due to the inhibiting factors it has caused for how DE can design content. This has resulted in content that has no solid base expectations of the player, especially in the damage department, and more often than not relies on making the player wait or protect an immobile target for a period of time.

While the discussion of the various factors and qualifiers of endgame content is all well and good, it will be distinctly hard to reach a consensus (or even a compromise) while there is a massive gap between the playerbase's power curve and effectiveness, as min-maxing in this game yields exponential results that completely eclipse the average output by a staggering degree.

I'm only posting this as a reminder of that gap, which is oft forgotten when discussing the topic and winds up skewing the bias in one direction or the other.

[VoidArkhangel]

 

hace 46 minutos, VoidArkhangel dijo:

You are kinda wrong, Endgame reffers to content with high replayability value since it literally means what you do after the end of the game, but hence the kinda since everyone has a different taste so not everyone will replay something nor will enjoy it the same way.

Because nothing in Warframe is worth to replay neither in the rewards nor in the fun value.

You've got it, the endgame isn't something that will make you replay for its rewards only, it will make you replay for something more that could be and generally is fun.

After saying that, I recently played DOOM 2016 and DOOM Eternal and what I found was something really interesting:

There was no rewards at all!

I mean, sure I can get event skins and things like that but I found my self playing missions over and over just for fun, it was the first time in ages that I didn't care about the rewards and yet I was in heaven (no pun intended) what takes me to the next point.

hace 1 hora, Zexal dijo:

We would need something fun, requiring skills, a bit time consuming, team-play, strategies, optimization and locked behind mastery or reputation and not necessarily rewarding... Right? Precisely! 

DOOM Eternal kept me playing because fighting such unique demons felt good with all those fantastic weapons and a perfect soundtrack with such a fast paced gameplay. Warframe has a really good map design (could be better tho) and has a unique gameplay where you can be in almost every part of the room but the problem comes from the enemies, weapons and soundtrack.

Enemies:

They are just awful, they represent a threath just because the player recieve a lot of damage and deals none to them, I already touched this topic in another post so I will quote:

Cita

What DE doesn't seem to understand is that difficulty and fun comes from complex enemies with unique mechanics and not from the same enemy with more health.

Another point is the actual mechanics on these enemies, you don't want to force the player to do something you want to present ways to overcome the situation to him; look at the marauder from DOOM Eternal and the kuva guardian both are invincible unless you do something, have an annoying companion and are pressure units but while the guardians only needs to be stunned with the void and then shot the marauder can be exposed in many ways and even himself can act in so many ways to the point where you can feel like each marauder is different.

 

Weapons:

I think it has to be with the previous point now before someone reminds me: DOOM isn't Warframe, Warframe could have a use for each weapon like in DOOM certain enemies have weaknesses to certain weapons but unlike DOOM, Warframe only lets you carry 0.01% of the weapons catalog meaning that those weapons should be enough to help you get through the mission.

The problem comes from the massive difference between primary and melee (the secondary should be a aid, not the main damage source) and after playing DOOM I began to love the nullifiers, why? because if I didn't wanted to be nullified I would have to stop spamming E, grab my weapon and shoot the bubble drone so I realised that this kind of enemy was the thing, pressure units that you can bypass with diferent strategies:

For a nullifier you can use the Miter, be nullified for kill it inside the bubble and recast, shoot the bubble, shoot the dron, grab a pet and wait for it to kill the nullifier, proc rad/mind-control/enthrall some nearby enemy to kill it and so.

As you saw with the nullifier most of the options left the melee as the bad option and IMO thats what the primary should be for, another option to kill enemies just as effective but can be more effective with enemies that clearly tell you that a firearm is the best option like nullifiers or liches.

Anyways that should've been on the previous point XD, I'm fine with the melee but surely DE should start balancing weapons (primary weapons mainly) based on stats and not on usage %.

 

Sountrack:

Don't get me wrong the sound team did a great job with everything but the BGM is old, the only time when you can listen the music is while you are chilling or when those strings starts to get really into your mind on the infested tilesets.

This was one of the things I most hated about DLC 2 of DOOM Eternal, the BGM was too weak on intense moments, I like to replay Arc Complex just because the music, I like to replay Ludwig's boss fight on Bloodborne just for that orchestra, Warframe needs music that starts to bump some blood.

 

So where am I going? Simple: rework the entire game, seriously, most of the game feels old like Ceres, the Sargent, infested tilesets, BGM, enemy AI, some UIs, missions and so and anyways, when you are remembering/fixing some old things you start to get creative.

[PublikDomain]

58 minutes ago, Zexal said:

To me and our group, a “true” endgame involves strategies, difficulty, time, and skills. It is something that needs optimization and knowledge. And it obviously is something to look up to once you are done with the base game (main and secondary quests, reputation, helminth, steel path, focus, etc.).

For me "endgame" is a little more loosely defined: endgame is just the stuff a player does at the end of the game. Simple, right? Any sort of recurring, long-term activities meant for players who have completed all of the one-off content like the main quest or collecting items. Endgame activities can focus on strategy, difficulty, skill, etc., but not all of them need to.

Endgame isn't some permanent thing, either: content can slide off and stop being a part of the endgame after it becomes a normal part of the game. For example, Eidolons were endgame at one point in time but I wouldn't really call them that anymore, since endgame players have long squeezed the last remaining drops of content out of them. Content that relies on an extrinsic reward structure will always dry up like this, so while it can be an endgame focus it needs constant refreshing or recycling to newer content.

Endgame activities can focus on rewards, they'll last longer if they don't.  What's really important for older players is just having something - anything - to keep doing in the game. A few ideas:

• An adopt-a-settlement program, where players/clans/alliances can adopt settlements of various sizes, like Inaros in Sands of Inaros and other Warframes in the lore. Players can build buildings, train, customize, and hire their own NPCs, research some new items like clan-tech, and build a Settlement Foundry. Settlement Foundries provide a second crafting queue so you can craft two of the same item at once: one on your ship and one at your settlement. Settlements can spawn alerts/quests and be attacked by enemy factions and provide something for you to spend time and resources on upkeep.
• Update the PvP: decrease the TTK and speed up spawn times to make it faster and make it easier for new players to get kills, and add basic features like bots and the ability to modify loadouts between games. Add new gametypes and skins, make more PvP mods usable in PvE, and offer more weapons/frames that can be obtained through PvP. This makes Conclave playable and provides an endless source of challenge for players looking to test themselves: other players.
• Lift the Armistice and bring back an updated Solar Rail Conflict system. Most nodes on the starchart can be contested and combat uses Conclave loadouts. The tax system is updated so it "taxes" NPCs instead of players. Additional rules are added where necessary. This would provide clans and alliances something to compete over, and could tie in with clan/alliance settlements.
• Merge mission modifiers like Fissures, Invasions, Kuva, etc. You could potentially do a Kuva Fissure Invasion and have a Lich show up. This makes the starchart less fragmented and makes it feel more alive/dynamic.
• Update the Invasion system so it's more dynamic/active. Factions invading territory can have goals for the community to prevent. If the faction succeeds it can cause things like Fomorians and Razorbacks. Add Sentients to the Invasion pool so they can start invading nodes in the Outer Terminus. This also makes the starchart feel more alive/dynamic and provides community goals to work towards.
• Make Fomorians/Razorbacks/etc. not on rails anymore so the community can be defeated, and allow the community to rebuild the Relays. This gives the community more agency over the ingame world, provides community goals, and makes it feel more alive.
• Bring back LoR/JV and add more raids, like for the 3rd Orb. This provides endgame mission types that require more cooperation than normal missions do now.

Building a rich endgame isn't hard; most of this content already exists in some form or another ingame, but DE doesn't use it to its full potential and would rather continue to throw new darts at the board.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

They already said they're working on turning the 3rd orb mother into a raid. This will be a nice test to see how the community reacts to a raid again. 

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

While I admire the effort put into this post, I honestly can't bring myself to read all that, so I'm just gonna leave my thoughts on the topic.

Overall no matter the definition there is an inherent issue to be had in many games, and that is balance.

The balance of Warframe has been off for years now, many have argued about which direction the game should go in (and some have even given the "argument" that PvE games don't need nerfs) and it hasn't quite found a satisfying conclusion as of yet.

I don't think we can discuss anything about endgame with the current overall imbalance that needs to be addressed, both long time and new players are suffering due to the statistical imbalances throughout Warframe due to the inhibiting factors it has caused for how DE can design content. This has resulted in content that has no solid base expectations of the player, especially in the damage department, and more often than not relies on making the player wait or protect an immobile target for a period of time.

While the discussion of the various factors and qualifiers of endgame content is all well and good, it will be distinctly hard to reach a consensus (or even a compromise) while there is a massive gap between the playerbase's power curve and effectiveness, as min-maxing in this game yields exponential results that completely eclipse the average output by a staggering degree.

I'm only posting this as a reminder of that gap, which is oft forgotten when discussing the topic and winds up skewing the bias in one direction or the other.

Spot on. Unless you already found a niche and enjoy that section of the game, no amount of finite rewards or artificial gating will overcome the root problems you just described.

Also it is just amazing how you managed to describe min-maxing exponential results with Eclipse in the sentence. Well played.

[DrivaMain]

You can’t have proper endgame with the broken beyond repair balance and the massive resistance from the casual part of the community that DE loves to cater with every time something challenging gets added. I am not against having endgame content, but Waframe in it’s current state cannot have proper endgame content.

[Aldain]

41 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Also it is just amazing how you managed to describe min-maxing exponential results with Eclipse in the sentence. Well played.

I ate a lot of alphabet soup as a youngling and it caused my vernacular to grow to an unprecedented degree.

[-AncientWarrior-]

Ahhh once again, you bring up things in this great game of ours that really are relevant and important for the playerbase AND Devs to participate in.  "End-game" firstly should be renamed to "Harder-content-and-tactics-required-for-better-rewards-game" ;)   Now I agree with virtually everything said in your post, and well done its a great read well thought out and as I said I think relevant to our game today.

I also believe that DE dropped the ball in simplifying how we move through the game ranks.. New or lower ranked players shouldn't be able to go to the higher areas of the game, they should have a path to which they can follow to get there, like what we had too before.  When I started I did every node, every planet to learn about the game, movements weapons and enemies, I farmed every weapon and frames as I went, again learning the game mechanics.  DE reduced this pathing to almost nothing..which equates to newish players not having an understanding of the game mechanics but still going into high levels (and being carried) - no learning here.  They pick up 1 decent weapon and they are off .. 6 months later they have left the game..

As far as the actual harder mission if we can call them that, Eidolons, PT, Disruptions they are all easily done solo.. no team play, strategies or tactics, squad setups etc required.  The old raids were fun, although buggy, but fun, I remember us putting the squad together, selecting the frames to make an effective squad etc etc.. This is something that's missing from WF now, there is no real reason to even put a squad together let alone get tactics to run the said missions. 

Now that we are in the Railjack territory, SS was great start to being a new type of Raid.. I liked the game play as well as the relay part of it (the ability to "send" support to teams from the relays), making the squads up etc, and now imaging this with 8 players 4 on ground 4 in RJ (like what DE initially showed us) but with players being able to change positions (from RJ to ground squad and vica-versa), man that would have been awesome. It would also bring meaning to Co-op gaming especially for more tactical players/squads.

This game has incredible scoop for being amazing co-op battle game with planet and space based battles, unfortunately DE's too into to making it easy for newish players at high levels, why not at-least have certain locked higher levels that when you achieve them they open the next phase of our WF universe.  Just like when we moved through the planets as a noobie you finish 1 planet to advance to the next.  Logical and workable that gives players the small wins as they go.  And they higher up the MR they go the better the rewards are and the more of the WF universe opens up to them.

Anyway enough from me, and thanks again for this post  ..

 

[GEN-Son_17]

6 hours ago, FSK41 said:

I cannot agree with everything said in the post but I  certainly support that there needs to be more endgame content for people who are done farming everything. A better (no paper) enemy scaling ,  some endgame rewards (I personally dont mind LOW  droptables as long as A its tied to endgame and not available in some damn bounty or other low level mission/ B worth it , if you want to sell me Infested arcanes as endgame i wont buy it , it doesnt need to be powercreep, it can be cosmetics, certain buffs that do not IMPACT the gameplay as much as a new Arcane Energize or a Kuva Bramma locked behind level 9999 content etc. a small increase to for example the focus system ( the zenurik energy regen lasting 1 minute instead of 30 seconds for example or   gives convenient content that isnt power creep, old players are lazy and would welcome these little changes to give them a feeling they have something that the average player after 500 hours does NOT) There are countless examples and possibilities for rewards. 

 

All in all I SUPPORT the message of the post (even tho i disagree with some aspects) 

This is my thinking as well. 

[GEN-Son_17]

Great ideas and observations OP!

As a vet who has just about everything and has also played for a very long time, I'm always concerned about how the endgame + rewards discussions play out. Including Arbitration and ESO, Warframe's endgame modes fall victim to many players with over 1500 days worth of experience playing the same game mechanics. This is why I think DE has the right idea of building Railjack, the necromechs, new archwings and the Duviri concept. All of this combined will give vets completely new mechanics to dive into and open new doors to endgame play, raids, pvp (necromechs and Duviri), etc.

I also wholeheartedly agree with applying restrictions on content until certain requirements are met, such as:

1) No open worlds until after the starchart is completed (which sets up higher leveled content concepts).

2) No certain quests until all open worlds are unlocked (which opens up better story progression and can help DE with focusing less on universal player accounting and more on higher leveled game loops).

3) No Steel Path until all normal mode stuff is unlocked and MR16 is reached. This helps to prevent carrying and misunderstood gameplay while also freeing up for more aggressive enemies.

With restrictions in place, the rewards can be better allocated toward higher tier content. New players WON'T KNOW what 60/60, corrupted, exilus, dual stat, riven or set mods are until later in the game where they're needed. Following this model, DE could very easily determine what new mods could be and when those mods should be added. This also opens room for tier-up mods in Steel Path, allowing an additional one or two points to key mods but requires Steel Essence, for example.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

7 hours ago, Zexal said:

Hi Tenno!

Today I wanted to talk about endgame. I will start by saying that everything that will be expressed is the result of my experience and that I have agreed with a few of my regular squad mates to speak for all of us (which is about 20 people that are still active, coming from different countries). This group involves multiple profiles such as a “new player” who understands the base mechanics and that has grinded enough to get to our definition of endgame, to the tryhard veteran.

 

We are aware that our opinion isn't representative of the whole community nor it is of the minorities.
I’d like to encourage every one of you to participate to this thread and to keep it constructive in your replies. 

 

I think that we can all agree, and tell me if I'm wrong, that each person has its own definition of endgame.
To me and our group, a “true” endgame involves strategies, difficulty, time, and skills. It is something that needs optimization and knowledge. And it obviously is something to look up to once you are done with the base game (main and secondary quests, reputation, helminth, steel path, focus, etc.). We will develop our thoughts, suggestions and opinion based off of this definition.

I would also like to say that we will only talk about current content in the game, meaning that I won’t mention raids (or at least not in the state they were in) or void keys.

Currently, as what could be defined as the most endgame content in Warframe, we have :

• Eidolons
• Profit-Taker
• Disruption
• Speedrun

For an 8 years old game, that’s not a lot. Endurance runs are now super restricted and are useless. Why would you bother staying 8 hours in a survival mission when there’s no challenge at all? Added the fact that you can get perma banned.

 

Why are these contents so good and endgame related?

Eidolons

In our group, we have seen and played eidolons pre-nerf and the current version.

The previous version, to push it as far as you could, involved time investment : You had to forma your whole entire loadout, know your placements, respect a certain order, know multiple timings, know how to manage your Madurai stacks, …

Now, with the nerf, you can literally take whatever you want, and it will work. The meta has slightly changed, and even with the Multi-threaded Rendering issue fixed, you’re still able to do a 6x3 night cap.

So, what could be improved there?

There’s still a few issues. Vomvalysts spawns and pathfinding have been destroyed since Scarlet Spear (make them rush again!), Hydrolyst’s rain is still spawning wherever it wants to, lures are often soft locked if you dash on them with the Magus Lockdown, …

In terms of mechanic, Eidolons are fine as they are now, I would just fix the aforementioned issues.
You still have to know a lot of things and invest time and energy. But they are now offering more diversity, which isn’t a bad thing. The only challenge is to succeed doing a 6x3 during the night, which, to us, is fine.

 

Profit-Taker

Regarding the Profit-Taker… Well, it’s by far the best boss in Warframe. Copying builds won’t work here, because you actually need and have to play. First, you have to grind for the reputation, which means that you have to get there and grind for it. Then you have to forma your loadout, and not any loadout, but a dedicated loadout specifically for this activity. You also have to understand how the modding system works, so, replicating someone else’s build won’t be enough.

The whole status/element mechanic is great, it really makes sense there for us to have one weapon from each category in our loadout. A primary, a secondary, a melee and an archgun. Also, what a great introduction to the archguns : they have a purpose!

You have to know how to manage corpus units while fighting the Profit-Taker, keeping in mind that you’re getting shot from every angle.
Not only that, you also have to know how to aim at pylons (hi Zenith users) or have a dedicated amp.

Overall, this boss involves everything that we mentioned in our definition of endgame.

It is also something that you can speedrun.

 

Disruption

Disruption has been great since its introduction to the game. An endless mission type with a simple but well-thought rotation system, great drop tables and that are almost everywhere.

To us, this game mode is the most polished that we have. Involving skills, theorycraft, knowledge, mobility, strategy, and time. 

In two hours, you can reach the level cap (9999) with ease.
Unfortunately, today, reaching this cap doesn’t mean anything because of the new health and armor scaling. Sure, you still have Steel Path to get slightly more resistant units, but they’re not as strong as they used to be. You're less of a target, and you have many ways to avoid death. 

What’s challenging in disruption? Beside reaching the cap, you have to memorize each demolyst spawn, and they can change during the run. Is it something to improve? Well, no. It’s a fun mission to do, reaching the cap is awesome and you’re rewarded for your investment.

 

Speedrun

As I am not a speedrunner, I have asked someone that speedruns on a daily basis to share his opinion on this activity.

Does it meet our definition? Yes.
Is there things to do related to speedruns? Actually, yes.
A lot of speedrunners are complaining about multiple bugs affecting them. It doesn’t matter if they are a minority or not, these bugs are also affecting regular casual players.
 

List of known bugs :

• Using Razorwing will make your fps drop in solo if you go too fast or even for no reason. It gets worse if you run with multiple Titanias in your squad, forcing your squadmates to uncast.
• Titania is also randomly flying upwards, on her own. This bugs also affects Cloud Walker (Wukong).
• Titania can’t kill nullifiers.
• Titania’s hitbox is messed up.

 

We have these contents, but it seems that it’s hard to develop a real and meaningful endgame in Warframe. Does it mean that we can’t have one? I honestly doubt it.

We thought of multiple things to discuss and to propose, so DE can pick these ideas, and maybe, someday, implement them into the game!

 

Why are we still waiting for an endgame?

We thought about this during days, discussed about it during the last few months and yet, we still have no answer.

Once you’re done with the base objectives, you have to make up the ones that you’d like to complete. The few endgame related content that we have is getting simplified more and more, but why is that?

We came to the conclusion that Warframe is old (obviously) and was never meant to be this big. If you know the history of Warframe, you know that it was DE’s last resort to save the company. Even they said it : they didn’t think that it would be successful.
So now they are stuck with a community that is composed of so many players, and thus, too many profiles. How can you still entertain older and new players? Well, simplify everything! Right? 

As seen multiple times on the forum, veteran players, tryhards or not, are leaving. Not because there’s no endgame, but because everything is getting too simple and too accessible.
There used to be a path to follow in Warframe to get to a certain power level, but now, you can get everything right from the start.

Unfortunately, and we thought that the current situation in the world didn’t help either, people just want to get in a game and play every content that they can, which we completely understand.

 

How does this new player situation affects the endgame content?

We observed on a small part of the community that new players are often discouraged by the amount of content that the game offers. So, is it worth to simplify everything? No. It’s not.

Can DE make something about it? YES!!! Fortunately, yes, it is something that they can fix.

As stated in a previous and personal thread right here, reworking the new player experience would be a solution. Sure, the introduction has been reworked to match the current game and its evolution (in a certain way), but new players are still left in the dark regarding what to do.

As said earlier, people want to play the game instantly. Give them a small tutorial about the whole modding system (without going in depth), the interface, ... Make them navigate through the orbiter and its segments. The codex is obsolete, and so is the introduction quest.
Yes, that would mean reworking the introduction again, but “just” by removing the mission type discovery through the research of the segments. Just add a direct tutorial with on-screen indications after the current introduction. 

From the small part of the community that we observed, we can say that they don’t read or listed to the dialogues. It may be interesting to work on this. New players will be less lost and more inclined in staying instead of giving up after being asked to scan three cephalon fragments!  

It will take some time and a lot of work, but that would be a first step.

 

Is it the only thing to do? Hell no!

Something that we also observed, is the accessibility issue. Keep things locked behind mastery and reputation! It’s working, look at the Profit-Taker. Even though we think that this specific lock is too high since a lot of people complete the prerequisite to properly complete this boss.

Helminth was supposed to be locked behind MR16. It should’ve been kept that way. We also think that considering how the game has evolved, there should be a rebalance of locked items, no matter how old or new they are.

New players don’t have a clear path to follow, and that's why they’re leaving. Being carried here and there isn’t fun, and making them rush to what we call “the endgame content” also make them leave.

In our opinion, DE should give them a clear path to follow. Junctions are obsolete : they give you quests, but which one is a main quest and which one is a secondary? What do we have if we do this quest instead of the other? Not a lot of work should be put into that, but highlighting the star chart would be a solution. Just use the current Quest Guide here! Trace a path in yellow on each planet to indicate the path to follow for a main quest, use an orange trace for secondary quests, and green highlights for mandatory objectives. That’s just a random idea that could be developed in something far better.

Because of the fact that everything is simplifed and accessible, we are stuck with the base content and repetitive nerfs. The last huge nerf being the Steel Path and the Steel Essences.

 

Endgame = Rewards

This is something that we thought of. 

Let's talk about Eidolons again. Before Scarlet Spear, Eidolons rewarded arcanes and people wanted to do them not because they were fun, but because of the carrot on a stick. We are aware that the few remaining hunters are doing them for fun, and not for arcanes. It is good to have diversity in the game, but unfortunately, reward-wise, Eidolons don't have any purpose anymore. 

Does it mean that we should get endgame content with no rewards? No! 

Look at the Profit-Taker, besides a few mods, relics and other drops, there's nothing worth selling there, and people are still doing it for fun and for credits! And I personally think that we're missing this in the latest released content : FUN. 

But let's take Disruption as another example : you can target what you want during rotations, and that is great. You are able to target-farm whatever you want, in the fastest way possible. That's also part of the endgame we're looking for. 

 

We would need something fun, requiring skills, a bit time consuming, team-play, strategies, optimization and locked behind mastery or reputation and not necessarily rewarding... Right? Precisely! 

For a general idea or call it whatever you want, take the Third Orb in the Orb Vallis. There's so many possibilities! 
Make it an 8-players boss : four in Railjack, four in the vallis. Use the Profit-Taker mechanic and the balls on the orb to be complementary. Each one would be weak to a specific element. 

Use the Railjack squad to be a support team, attacking a corpus ship and shooting on Venus, making the orb's shields weaker and triggering a new fight phase using archguns. Let this same squad send ammo or energy pads. And make the last phase Necramech-only! (I am not a fan of them, but at least they would be useful)

We don't know how difficult that would be to do, but Scarlet Spear happened and Railjack has been reworkd twice. Anything is possible then!

As for the rewards (because for this kind of boss they are needed), unreleased arcanes were mentioned in a hotfix last year (it was here then, but it seems that it got edited, or it's just the wrong hotfix) could be an idea.
Add a new weapon, two mods, radiant axi relics and that's it! 

 

Aside from the Third Orb, allowing long runs again while changing the reward system could be fun! The MR29 test was interesting : modifiers while running could be interesting to implement during survivals. Each five minutes you get a new modifier and you still have to survive.
That would be a bit challenging, while allowing the previous scaling to come back for these specific runs. That would also meet our definition of endgame.
A modifier on survival missions, just like nightmares or steel path should be easy to do. 

 

We mentioned speedruns, and Outriders released a few days ago. It rewards players based on the time that they spent in the mission. The quicker you are, the better the rewards.
It has been done in other games, but that's not the point.
Tied to the nightwaves, adding capture or rescue missions to speedrun to get 50-35-25 NW credits once or twice a week could be fun! 

 

If we really need rewards, we thought that the whole system should be revised. For example, let's say that you're doing a capture on Earth, and as an end-of-mission reward you get 50 endo. Make it scale with the Mastery Rank. The same capture for a MR30 player would reward 1500 endo (50*30). At some point, it might become ridiculous. But there should be some kind of reward scaling in base missions tied to the MR of a player. 

During long runs, after five waves, while keeping the base reward (endo/credits), you can also make something like (50*30)*15. 15 being half of the mastery rank, so you don't end up with super ridiculous amounts of endo.

Again, these are just ideas, the main issue being the fact that everything is getting simplified and rewards aren't rewards anymore but just pure grind with no fun.

 

With the evolution of the game, we feel like grinding replaced fun, and rewards are just an argument to justify this grind. Take Arcana bounties, the rewards aren't even that good to justify the grind behind it. It is fun to do a few times, but then you get to a point where it isn't fun anymore.

 

What can we do about it?

We can discuss about it here!
Maybe someone from DE will notice this thread, our opinion and also yours.
Leave your thoughts and ideas, but keep it safe and constructive!

You left out Arbitration and Steel path.

You tried to provide a definition to endgame, but that’s pointless. It’s not even true in half the games that exist.

The end game is just the game that proceeds the core of the game. 
 

I just really don’t understand how people can play this game for thousands of hours and then have tantrums about how the game has no end game 🤦 

[S1mplyFresh]

-

[Megalomaniakaal]

11 hours ago, Zexal said:

Speedrun

As I am not a speedrunner, I have asked someone that speedruns on a daily basis to share his opinion on this activity.

Quote

I think that you first need motivation, be curious and optimize your stuff. There is no prerequisite to speedrun, you just have to be interested in different techniques, to grind and to practice a lot!
A lot of people think that speedrun is RNG-based when it actually based on your reflexes and your adaptability rather than your muscle memory. As no tile is the same, it allows people to improve.
A good speedrunner is someone who possess the qualities that I have previously mentioned : working on his reflexes, adaptable, curious, with deduction skills.
You don’t need to be super advanced in the game, however, it is something that you can do once you have nothing left to do.

Does it meet our definition? Yes.
Is there things to do related to speedruns? Actually, yes.
A lot of speedrunners are complaining about multiple bugs affecting them. It doesn’t matter if they are a minority or not, these bugs are also affecting regular casual players.

Could you please define what constitutes a 'speedrun' in warframe? Completing a extermination/rescue/capture/sabotage ASAP? Something else? Currently it's saying nothing at all.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

25 minutes ago, Megalomaniakaal said:

Could you please define what constitutes a 'speedrun' in warframe? Completing a extermination/rescue/capture/sabotage ASAP? Something else? Currently it's saying nothing at all.

I am a speedrunner. It's setting challenges for yourself, a lot of which already exist on what players have determined are the ideal missions to run for these challenges. Some popular ones include Cambria Spy, Regna Rescue, Void Capture, Profit Taker, Lephantis Assassination, Dojo course parkour and so on. There exists sites with the best recorded times for these and enthusiasts constantly try to better their times for the enjoyment of it. It's a test of reflexes, map knowledge and adaptability, as well as recognizing how to optimise gear for a particular mission. This also carries into how we play the game in general and in that it becomes an adopted playstyle, much more frantic and skillful than your typical public group rushing to the end of the mission.

[Jarriaga]

16 hours ago, Zexal said:

I think that we can all agree, and tell me if I'm wrong, that each person has its own definition of endgame.

I've had this discussion before, and this sentence in particular is what holds DE back with regards to designing endgame content. In reality, most other games (Including real life chess) have a rather consistent definition of what the "Endgame" is: The activities that you should be focused on while in the later stages of the game after most of the content has been experienced and the majority of the game's tools are at your disposal. Content, game modes, activities and challenges set by the game/developers (Not the players) that are simply not doable otherwise because you will not have the necessary tools.

This definition of "Endgame" is rather consistent across games in which you do not hear complains about lack of an Endgame.

In Devil May Cry for example, the Endgame is to get the highest possible score at high difficulties such as Dante Must Die, which requires for you to constantly change your combos and weapons based on enemy match-ups so you don't waste time, avoid damage, and increase the style score multiplier. This is generally not possible without unlocking all abilities and combos, and this is not a player goal because the game will give you a negative grade if you take too long to complete a mission because you don't have access to the stronger abilities locked in the progression system.

Even chess has a set definition of an Endgame that resolves around the same concept: The final stage of a chess game when few pieces are left on the board.

Warframe doesn't have a defined Endgame because there is no ultimate goal that requires experiencing most of the game in order to succeed at it as it is impossible to access or complete without said tools.. This in turn results in personal goals or interpretations of what an "Endgame" is that ignore the consistency of execution found across other games including chess. It would be much, much easier for all of us to suggest Endgame ideas if we would just use the most consistent definition. The execution can then be ironed out, but at least we'd have a base to work with.

The irony here, is that by the definition presented above, Eidolon hunting is the closest thing to an endgame we have in your list because it requires for you to have experienced a significant portion of the game's content in order to succeed at it at the most basic level. On your own, without being carried, it is literally impossible to kill an Eidolon until you've at least done The Second Dream (And ideally The War Within) because you can't damage Eidolons at all otherwise.

- Disruption doesn't fit in the general Endgame definition because it can be experienced very early on in the game (Mars, Olympus). You can make an Argument that individual sub-variations such as Kuva Disruption do require clearing out most of the game in order to try the game mode (As you need to unlock the Kuva Fortress), but the game mode is the same as in Mars. The difference is the rewards. On top of that, the game doesn't normally reward you for long runs. It doesn't scale what you get unless it's on a relic run.

- Profit-taker is a content island that does not require you to clear and experience most of the game in order to deal with it. Operators do make the fight faster, but they are not required. This fight was designed so you could laser-focus your progress in Fortuna, ignoring the rest of the game, and still beat it. You won't be able to have access to Little Duck's store, but you can still beat it unlike Eidolons.

- Speed-runs do not fit the definition because the game and devs don't reward you for clearing a mission faster than usual. There's no bonus to credits, mods, affinity, or resources. Yes, clearing a mission faster nets you more time to do it again, but this is a personal goal the game is not rewarding you for.

And even when there is an activity or game mode that fits the definition of Endgame (Such as Eidolons), WF's "evolving" nature can render it obsolete by virtue of adding new mechanics or systems that don't take into account the previous endgame. For example, Eidolons now lack Mecramechs (You can use them, but are not required) and RJ integration. Since adding RJ integration to Eidolons makes no sense, this is why the definition uses the term "most of the game's tools" instead of all, although ideally, a higher-tier endgame would necessitate all.

Sadly, I don't think this will ever happen because DE won't dedicate the necessary resources that such a game mode would entail and require for upkeep as it gates off newer players by design, and we all know newer players are the focus most of the time because they are the biggest spenders. This was made clear when DE decided to sell Necramechs and then Railjacks. DE are allowing you to cash bypass entire progression systems and questlines, which means there's no need to even consider what tools a late player/endgame/ready player has as their disposal because early-game players can pay for said tools.

There will never be a developer-designed endgame mode in Warframe because it would require leaving behind new players. It's a matter of time before they start selling Steel Path Access Keys by the same token, because they always want "more people enjoying the things you enjoy".

This is why players set-up their own personal challenges to define what their own "endgame" is, but just because you set a personal goal doesn't mean that the game itself has been designed around your personal goal being a challenge the devs want you to partake in. My personal challenge was reach MR30. Now I have nothing to aim towards, and even if I did, it would not be recognized, incentivized and/or rewarded by the game. 

[Teridax68]

17 hours ago, Zexal said:

We would need something fun, requiring skills, a bit time consuming, team-play, strategies, optimization and locked behind mastery or reputation and not necessarily rewarding... Right?

You mean like pretty much every other attempt DE made at introducing "endgame"?

We can talk as much as we want about the new content we'd want as our new "endgame", but the problem is that, as mentioned in the OP, everyone has their own definition (I consider absolutely none of the features you brought up to be "endgame", and speedrunners in particular are a minority among the playerbase). Moreover, it's pretty much impossible to have the kind of content as described in the quote, because unless the entire bit of content is its own minigame in the style of the Exploiter Orb fight or Nihil (both of which are generally unpopular), we're going to be able to trivialize whatever the game throws at us. Once we do so, we're going to grind that bit of content until it stops being fun, and once we've gotten all of the rewards from that bit of content, we're going to abandon it. If the content offers no desirable rewards, and isn't properly baked into the rest of the game, it's going to be forgotten pretty much right off the bat.

Thus, before we can start fantasizing about what we want from an endgame, we need to address the following problems:

• Any content the game throws at us gets trivialized, because the state of our balance and ability design currently does not allow us to be challenged in a manner that doesn't involve invalidating our power.
• Any content that we receive has only a limited life span, because the game ingrains into us the notion that we should play content specifically for the rewards, rather than for intrinsic enjoyment.
• Most content we receive can easily be forgotten once completed, because this game is structured as a series of content islands rather than a cohesive whole.

Until this gets addressed, whichever attempts at endgame DE continue to make are going to fail, for the same reasons they've failed in the past with ESO, Arbitrations, Kuva Liches, Profit-Taker, and even Eidolons.

[Vaml77]

Endgame to me is railjack/arbitration....but DE messed up with the "retrofit" thing. I doubt they will fix things like energy linked between warframe/ship and mods of railjack and some terrible weapons like vort, laith and now cryophon changed....was just terrible.

Disruptions, profit taker i want distance.

Now my endgame is just arbitration...sometimes. 

[ReddyDisco]

the wait for update sure has been long this time.

[Yamazuki]

Warframe's only real end-game is rivens, and since that's largely ignored by most people, there isn't one. End-game is something that cycles on these types of games, content that's repeated until the next new thing that's repeated, etc. However, that's impossible to achieve on Warframe. While people want to whine it's all the casuals and the imbalance at fault, that is all largely irrelevant to the fact DE can't make content repeatable from a reward standpoint that doesn't immediately push away just about everyone.

Rewards in this game are almost all too low in value to ever waste time on getting. In other games, even when you have the rewards, there's a lot worth trading. Arcanes only held any value due to the artificial limitation on Eidolons, forced operator, and trash drop rates. Any content that isn't artificially limited immediately sees its rewards lose value. Any of the valuable rivens are only valuable entirely due to artificial limitations.

Currently, the only relevant repeatable content for most people would be something like opening relics, as that's generally the way to trade, and other than bothering with arcanes or gambling, every other activity yields virtually 0 plat for the time required.

Most other rewards worth trading are just temporary farms tied to an event, or something like Nightwave with the wolf drops when he had his own node.

[killerJoke66]

imo starting with giving better scaling rewards for disruption is a good go , from what i understand most players like this mode and it has to my knowledge no weird internal coding issues like survival has atm (correct me if im wrong here) , just my 2 bits..

[Kaggelos]

19 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

 

After saying that, I recently played DOOM 2016 and DOOM Eternal and what I found was something really interesting:

There was no rewards at all!

I mean, sure I can get event skins and things like that but I found my self playing missions over and over just for fun, it was the first time in ages that I didn't care about the rewards and yet I was in heaven (no pun intended) what takes me to the next point.

DOOM Eternal kept me playing because fighting such unique demons felt good with all those fantastic weapons and a perfect soundtrack with such a fast paced gameplay. Warframe has a really good map design (could be better tho) and has a unique gameplay where you can be in almost every part of the room but the problem comes from the enemies, weapons and soundtrack.

Enemies:

They are just awful, they represent a threath just because the player recieve a lot of damage and deals none to them, I already touched this topic in another post so I will quote:

 

Weapons:

I think it has to be with the previous point now before someone reminds me: DOOM isn't Warframe, Warframe could have a use for each weapon like in DOOM certain enemies have weaknesses to certain weapons but unlike DOOM, Warframe only lets you carry 0.01% of the weapons catalog meaning that those weapons should be enough to help you get through the mission.

The problem comes from the massive difference between primary and melee (the secondary should be a aid, not the main damage source) and after playing DOOM I began to love the nullifiers, why? because if I didn't wanted to be nullified I would have to stop spamming E, grab my weapon and shoot the bubble drone so I realised that this kind of enemy was the thing, pressure units that you can bypass with diferent strategies:

For a nullifier you can use the Miter, be nullified for kill it inside the bubble and recast, shoot the bubble, shoot the dron, grab a pet and wait for it to kill the nullifier, proc rad/mind-control/enthrall some nearby enemy to kill it and so.

As you saw with the nullifier most of the options left the melee as the bad option and IMO thats what the primary should be for, another option to kill enemies just as effective but can be more effective with enemies that clearly tell you that a firearm is the best option like nullifiers or liches.

Anyways that should've been on the previous point XD, I'm fine with the melee but surely DE should start balancing weapons (primary weapons mainly) based on stats and not on usage %.

 

Sountrack:

Don't get me wrong the sound team did a great job with everything but the BGM is old, the only time when you can listen the music is while you are chilling or when those strings starts to get really into your mind on the infested tilesets.

This was one of the things I most hated about DLC 2 of DOOM Eternal, the BGM was too weak on intense moments, I like to replay Arc Complex just because the music, I like to replay Ludwig's boss fight on Bloodborne just for that orchestra, Warframe needs music that starts to bump some blood.

 

So where am I going? Simple: rework the entire game, seriously, most of the game feels old like Ceres, the Sargent, infested tilesets, BGM, enemy AI, some UIs, missions and so and anyways, when you are remembering/fixing some old things you start to get creative.

Agreed 100% on everything.