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An open discussion about endgame in Warframe


Zexal
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For me, currently, endgame is Steel Path missions, rank 5 Liches, Profit Taker (all these done solo), Eidolons (in a team). Sometimes Arbies (with a squad), but it takes about half an hour for them to get dangerous, and i dont like wasting my time. RJ has some great potential, so we'll just wait and see ^^

Also fashionframe :-P

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Reward and replayability are important if we want to talk about end-game.

I'm afraid that adding more content that requires team comp will just split even more the community.

One of the strength of Warframe is you can just take your favorite frame and you will most likely succeed

Eidolons is a good example, you can try to join a PUG and do 2x3 (3x3) if you're lucky). But an organized group will do 6x3. Are people really farming Eidolons anymore after Scarlet Spear and Orphix Venom?

I stopped farming Eidolons when I maxed out my focus, and I was able to max out Energize as well while doing it (R3). Then they raised the cap of arcane, but I wasn't planning on farming Eidolons again (that was before Scarlet Spear).

So which reward could they bring so that player would farm for a long time?

As for replayability, I would like to know what people would expect. There are some good ideas here like the contested starchart. Maybe some PvPvE. I don't think the 3rd Orb will fix anything if they do it in the same way, Exploiter Orb is nice but not a lot of players are doing it unlike Profit-Taker (but I guess it's because PT is quite easy and only takes 5min).

Warframe already has a lot of missions with some kind of currencies:

  • Relics: prime parts and forma (the most popular one I would say)
  • Invasions: some rare resources to craft some dojo weapons, and some unique weapons
  • Kuva Siphon: Kuva to roll riven
  • Arbitration: vitus, unique mods and arcanes
  • Eidolons: arcanes and focus farm

The biggest grind other than MR was focus grind. Would they bring something similar to keep players?

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On 2021-04-10 at 12:26 PM, Zexal said:

Regarding the Profit-Taker… Well, it’s by far the best boss in Warframe. Copying builds won’t work here, because you actually need and have to play

Um, yes it does work. There's a reason everyone tells you "just run Inaros" because Inaros's massive HP lets you just ignore 90% of the fight and focus on just shooting the shield. In theory, Profit-Taker's magnetic proc spam is supposed to shut down nuker frames. In practice, players who can't nuke the level 60 crewmen will just ignore the level 60 crewmen with Inaros. And Profit-Taker herself barely does any damage (especially compared to Exploiter) so it's pretty easy to copy builds from experienced Inaros tankers and just steamroll through Profit-Taker

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Posted (edited)
On 2021-04-10 at 10:38 PM, VoidArkhangel said:

So where am I going? Simple: rework the entire game, seriously, most of the game feels old like Ceres, the Sargent, infested tilesets, BGM, enemy AI, some UIs, missions and so and anyways, when you are remembering/fixing some old things you start to get creative.

I couldn't agree more with that. It will take a lot of time but small changes can make a difference.
Look at Sprag and Ven'kra Tel : they're finally reworked but we're still waiting for a quest/event to see that. So that means that they still have some inspiration!

13 hours ago, syl42 said:

Reward and replayability are important if we want to talk about end-game.

I'm afraid that adding more content that requires team comp will just split even more the community.

One of the strength of Warframe is you can just take your favorite frame and you will most likely succeed
Eidolons is a good example, you can try to join a PUG and do 2x3 (3x3) if you're lucky). But an organized group will do 6x3. Are people really farming Eidolons anymore after Scarlet Spear and Orphix Venom?

I mostly agree. And just to let you (and everybody know) the first 6x3 has been done solo a few hours ago! 😂 (Right here)

On 2021-04-11 at 4:37 AM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

You left out Arbitration and Steel path.

You tried to provide a definition to endgame, but that’s pointless. It’s not even true in half the games that exist.

The end game is just the game that proceeds the core of the game. 
 

I just really don’t understand how people can play this game for thousands of hours and then have tantrums about how the game has no end game 🤦 

Arbitrations have been simplified twice and specters have been "fixed". It was an endgame content when it launched, but now, it's just like any other regular mission.
DE said it themselves : Steel Path is not even close to endgame, it is just for players who wants slightly more difficult enemies. Also, SP could have been considered endgame when Odin was still around, before the total nerf of Steel Essences.

We didn't forget about it, we were here for every change that happened to these game modes, and that's why we didn't mentioned them. We wanted to focus on things to improve, and not negative things that happened to each game mode.

17 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Warframe's only real end-game is rivens, and since that's largely ignored by most people, there isn't one. End-game is something that cycles on these types of games, content that's repeated until the next new thing that's repeated, etc. However, that's impossible to achieve on Warframe. 

I can't completely agree with you, I saw a large part of the community being interested in rivens. Saying that it's the real endgame is really subjective, but I won't deny that it could be someone's engame. 

17 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Rewards in this game are almost all too low in value to ever waste time on getting. In other games, even when you have the rewards, there's a lot worth trading. Arcanes only held any value due to the artificial limitation on Eidolons, forced operator, and trash drop rates. Any content that isn't artificially limited immediately sees its rewards lose value. Any of the valuable rivens are only valuable entirely due to artificial limitations.

Currently, the only relevant repeatable content for most people would be something like opening relics, as that's generally the way to trade, and other than bothering with arcanes or gambling, every other activity yields virtually 0 plat for the time required.

Most other rewards worth trading are just temporary farms tied to an event, or something like Nightwave with the wolf drops when he had his own node.

And here, I completely agree!

Quote

So which reward could they bring so that player would farm for a long time?

As for replayability, I would like to know what people would expect. 

[...]

The biggest grind other than MR was focus grind. Would they bring something similar to keep players?

I honestly doubt that focus kept people from doing Eidolons since you can easily max your daily cap in ESO... In terms of rewards... We thought about scaling rewards (endo, credits, nitain, whatever) and regular rewards (unreleased arcanes, cosmetics). Since our original thought was to lock everything behind rep/mastery, it wouldn't be an endgame for tryhards, but something that could be universally done if you actually play, so there would be no advantages for tryhards, but just fun! 

41 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Um, yes it does work. There's a reason everyone tells you "just run Inaros" because Inaros's massive HP lets you just ignore 90% of the fight and focus on just shooting the shield. In theory, Profit-Taker's magnetic proc spam is supposed to shut down nuker frames. In practice, players who can't nuke the level 60 crewmen will just ignore the level 60 crewmen with Inaros. And Profit-Taker herself barely does any damage (especially compared to Exploiter) so it's pretty easy to copy builds from experienced Inaros tankers and just steamroll through Profit-Taker

Maybe I wasn't explicit enough when I mentioned PT, but when we were talking about it, it was from an endgame perspective, meaning that it took every aspects of our definition. 
Sure, you could take this frame, but will you be efficient? No, you won't. Simply because of his mobility and his abilities.
There's a lot of reasons why we use Saryn or Chroma. The first one is because of her abilities and speed, and the second one is for her buffs and ability to double credits. Both of them can tank the whole fight, and combined with the Operator you can't die at all, even if you slip at some point.
What can Inaros do? Well, nothing. Not dying when crewmen are shooting at you when you're using Inaros isn't called tanking, it's just called low-level gameplay. Also, there's no such thing as "experienced Inaros tankers".

Edited by Zexal
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vor 21 Minuten schrieb TARINunit9:

Profit-Taker's magnetic proc spam is supposed to shut down nuker frames.

This is completly wrong. Players who know the fight can see that Profit Taker only uses his magnetic attack when you are too close / beneath him. Experienced Players use this to thier advantage and use Warframes that buff thier damage.

 

vor 32 Minuten schrieb TARINunit9:

And Profit-Taker herself barely does any damage (especially compared to Exploiter)

Also big doubt on this one.

 

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il y a une heure, Zexal a dit :

I honestly doubt that focus kept people from doing Eidolons since you can easily max your daily cap in ESO

it's much more efficient to do Eidolons for focus farming. You get 150k per 3, and it's not capped by the daily cap. If you can do 2x3 like a noob like me, it's 300k, and you can do that multiple times a day. My daily cap is also around 300k. And you also get a bunch of arcanes by doing so. And you're not restricted by the lens you put on your frame or weapons, you can allocate that focus wherever you want.

Edited by syl42
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23 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

weird internal coding issues like survival has

Care to elaborate? I know the life support drops can be scarce unless you have a loot frame or a drop chance/resource booster but other than that I don't think I've noticed anything in particular...

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7 hours ago, Andy. said:

Also big doubt on this one.

Protif Taker's most powerful attack is an electric proc. That's it. All other damage toward the players comes from the level 60 enemies

7 hours ago, Andy. said:

This is completly wrong. Players who know the fight can see that Profit Taker only uses his magnetic attack when you are too close / beneath him. Experienced Players use this to thier advantage and use Warframes that buff thier damage.

You're acting like I said the Magnetic procs even work, when I explicitly said they didn't work

7 hours ago, Zexal said:

What can Inaros do? Well, nothing. Not dying when crewmen are shooting at you when you're using Inaros isn't called tanking, it's just called low-level gameplay. Also, there's no such thing as "experienced Inaros tankers".

That's the point of my post. You claim that PT is the best boss in the game? I say nay. I say PT is so badly designed all you need is Inaros's health bar. Inaros is a bad frame? Well... Yes! Yes he is. You are correct. That's how bad PT is!

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17 minutes ago, Megalomaniakaal said:

Care to elaborate? I know the life support drops can be scarce unless you have a loot frame or a drop chance/resource booster but other than that I don't think I've noticed anything in particular...

just like you mentioned with the drop rates of capsules theres enemy pathing , it was already bad before DE touched it with the uranus survival grineer tunnel/prison strat (maybe exploit to some) , and then theres the occasional cuttage on spawns from enemies because well probably coding or some randomness element with their behaviour(simply not spawning in the first place regardless of your kps/dps) ,and then sometimes they spawn (especially infested on eris) in an un-alerted mode so that they dont rush to you and get stuck on an enterance of a door or couple doors unless you manually find them and clear them ... 
The list probably goes on and on but those are the ones that i remember 

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Just now, Megalomaniakaal said:

Ah, perhaps I haven't noticed anything 'strange' because I don't camp.

 

... you dont have to camp to witness those anomalies , they are consistant if one does have enough sample size . 

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Just for clarity, by camping I mean staying in a single tile and not necessarily standing still in a single spot. As for enemy spawns working in a sine wave I don't think that is particularly strange. In combination with level increases it's supposed to make for a less linear 'difficulty' curve, plenty of games use this logic.

 

 

edit: I have noticed some bugs of course. But those are outright bugs(and some times rather nice to have cheats while at it). For an example sometimes after a host migration when you become host the enemies act as if you don't exist/are perma-invisible. But that's a clear bug that likely nobody will report since it's too damn good.

But I figured you weren't talking about straight up bugs since you didn't call them that.

Edited by Megalomaniakaal
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1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

I say PT is so badly designed all you need is Inaros's health bar.

Hear Hear, I hate fighting that walking trash heap so much, not only because of the variable mono-damage-type shield (in a game where there are literally ELEVEN GOD DAMN DAMAGE TYPES it can switch to) but because it is more a fight of destroying all of the reinforcement beacons before you get utterly swarmed with hundreds of pointless mooks who primarily cause damage to your framerate instead of you.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb TARINunit9:

he point of my post. You claim that PT is the best boss in the game? I say nay. I say PT is so badly designed all you need is Inaros's health bar. Inaros is a bad frame? Well... Yes! Yes he is. You are correct. That's how bad PT is!

So you are bascially saying that the game & all its bosses are bad? Everything in this game can easily be done with Inaros.

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1 hour ago, Andy. said:

So you are bascially saying that the game & all its bosses are bad? Everything in this game can easily be done with Inaros.

No, I grade bosses on a curve based on when a player is expected to encounter them.

For example I think Sargas Ruk is a brilliantly balanced boss for a newcomer. You have verticality to play with, the boss doesn't do too much damage but still has dangerous procs if the newbie isn't paying attention, he's chunky and intimidating.

Profit Taker is a terrible boss for basically everyone, newbies and veterans alike, because she is simultaneously too freaking boring and too freaking sensory-overloading. PT herself just sits there on her fat robotic buttocks waiting for you to kill her, but is surrounded by a veritable Survival mission of enemy spawns who will just keep shooting and shooting and shooting, and making loud noises when they spawn over and over and over, because the enemy teleport sounds are designed to be payed attention to, they are a critical part of bounties because they point important enemies put, but you aren't supposed to pay attention to them during Profit Taker, but if you don't they will just spawn trenchers and jackals and raknoids and they will just staggerlock you, but you need to let them spawn so they raise the alert level which spawns archgun ammo, and all of this crap just so you can kill a boss who is pathetic and easy and just sits there and doesn't shoot you, and just F*ck Profit Taker this boss fight is so stupid. 

There is a reason Exploiter Orb stripped out EVERYTHING except Exploiter herself, it was a MUCH better exploration of the concept

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1 hour ago, Andy. said:

So you are bascially saying that the game & all its bosses are bad?

Yeah, all of Warframe's bosses are pretty bad imo.

My favorite boss is actually Ropalolyst, Ralph actually has some form of interactivity other than vomiting damage at it until it dies or arbitrary nonsense like a Shield that rolls the dice on what it can be damaged by.

Everything else is basically either a tank'n'spank or grabbing a Rubico Prime and shooting the weak point for massive damage.

Edited by Aldain
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13 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

No, I grade bosses on a curve based on when a player is expected to encounter them.

For example I think Sargas Ruk is a brilliantly balanced boss for a newcomer. You have verticality to play with, the boss doesn't do too much damage but still has dangerous procs if the newbie isn't paying attention, he's chunky and intimidating.

Profit Taker is a terrible boss for basically everyone, newbies and veterans alike, because she is simultaneously too freaking boring and too freaking sensory-overloading. PT herself just sits there on her fat robotic buttocks waiting for you to kill her, but is surrounded by a veritable Survival mission of enemy spawns who will just keep shooting and shooting and shooting, and making loud noises when they spawn over and over and over, because the enemy teleport sounds are designed to be payed attention to, they are a critical part of bounties because they point important enemies put, but you aren't supposed to pay attention to them during Profit Taker, but if you don't they will just spawn trenchers and jackals and raknoids and they will just staggerlock you, but you need to let them spawn so they raise the alert level which spawns archgun ammo, and all of this crap just so you can kill a boss who is pathetic and easy and just sits there and doesn't shoot you, and just F*ck Profit Taker this boss fight is so stupid. 

There is a reason Exploiter Orb stripped out EVERYTHING except Exploiter herself, it was a MUCH better exploration of the concept

Sooooo....I get a feeling you don't like Profit-Taker....😂

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14 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

No, I grade bosses on a curve based on when a player is expected to encounter them.

For example I think Sargas Ruk is a brilliantly balanced boss for a newcomer. You have verticality to play with, the boss doesn't do too much damage but still has dangerous procs if the newbie isn't paying attention, he's chunky and intimidating.

Profit Taker is a terrible boss for basically everyone, newbies and veterans alike, because she is simultaneously too freaking boring and too freaking sensory-overloading. PT herself just sits there on her fat robotic buttocks waiting for you to kill her, but is surrounded by a veritable Survival mission of enemy spawns who will just keep shooting and shooting and shooting, and making loud noises when they spawn over and over and over, because the enemy teleport sounds are designed to be payed attention to, they are a critical part of bounties because they point important enemies put, but you aren't supposed to pay attention to them during Profit Taker, but if you don't they will just spawn trenchers and jackals and raknoids and they will just staggerlock you, but you need to let them spawn so they raise the alert level which spawns archgun ammo, and all of this crap just so you can kill a boss who is pathetic and easy and just sits there and doesn't shoot you, and just F*ck Profit Taker this boss fight is so stupid. 

There is a reason Exploiter Orb stripped out EVERYTHING except Exploiter herself, it was a MUCH better exploration of the concept

Seriously though, Profit-Taker is really an awesome boss. Constant action, good damage dealer, boss-grade tanky, great reinforcements, nice mechanics and an absolute blast to fight with friends!

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1 minute ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Seriously though, Profit-Taker is really an awesome boss. Constant action, good damage dealer, boss-grade tanky, great reinforcements, nice mechanics and an absolute blast to fight with friends!

Remove all the adds except for Terra Mankers and the occasional big Raknoid, and give Profit Taker some actual guns, and you might have a point. As it stands she is a godawful disappointment of a boss sitting in an even worse mission

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1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Remove all the adds except for Terra Mankers and the occasional big Raknoid, and give Profit Taker some actual guns, and you might have a point. As it stands she is a godawful disappointment of a boss sitting in an even worse mission

Ahhh...the best and beautiful thing about Warframe: Enough variety to please and disappoint simultaneously.

 

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5 hours ago, Megalomaniakaal said:

Just for clarity, by camping I mean staying in a single tile and not necessarily standing still in a single spot. As for enemy spawns working in a sine wave I don't think that is particularly strange. In combination with level increases it's supposed to make for a less linear 'difficulty' curve, plenty of games use this logic.

 

 

edit: I have noticed some bugs of course. But those are outright bugs(and some times rather nice to have cheats while at it). For an example sometimes after a host migration when you become host the enemies act as if you don't exist/are perma-invisible. But that's a clear bug that likely nobody will report since it's too damn good.

But I figured you weren't talking about straight up bugs since you didn't call them that.

i cant point my fingers on what you tried to say there so it would be my guess that you think i didnt mention them as straight up bugs ... 

what do you think , enemies not spawning or stuck in a door is a normal survival gameplay or supposed to be ? no its not , i dont need to say theyre 'straight up bugs' the reason why they ever get fixed is because its was an old old coding thing and if they truly want to fix it as of right now it would take ages , or they need to revamp the whole * game , in which case either 2 scenarios or likely not to happen because its an unneeded time and resource for them , iirc they even said themselves that they dont care about survivals , they have no plans to foster it and thats why i suggested knowing that in mind that banking on the new-ish disruption with not so many issues they can implement or start implementing some actual end game stuff .

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On 2021-04-10 at 4:05 PM, Aldain said:

While I admire the effort put into this post, I honestly can't bring myself to read all that, so I'm just gonna leave my thoughts on the topic.

Overall no matter the definition there is an inherent issue to be had in many games, and that is balance.

The balance of Warframe has been off for years now, many have argued about which direction the game should go in (and some have even given the "argument" that PvE games don't need nerfs) and it hasn't quite found a satisfying conclusion as of yet.

I don't think we can discuss anything about endgame with the current overall imbalance that needs to be addressed, both long time and new players are suffering due to the statistical imbalances throughout Warframe due to the inhibiting factors it has caused for how DE can design content. This has resulted in content that has no solid base expectations of the player, especially in the damage department, and more often than not relies on making the player wait or protect an immobile target for a period of time.

While the discussion of the various factors and qualifiers of endgame content is all well and good, it will be distinctly hard to reach a consensus (or even a compromise) while there is a massive gap between the playerbase's power curve and effectiveness, as min-maxing in this game yields exponential results that completely eclipse the average output by a staggering degree.

I'm only posting this as a reminder of that gap, which is oft forgotten when discussing the topic and winds up skewing the bias in one direction or the other.

This 100% we’ve been saying this for how many years now

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It would be difficult for DE to justify spending months making content for less than 5% of the playerbase, when their wash out rate is still towering above “the vast majority.”

I don’t think there is a right answer here, I mean players seem perfectly content spending thousands of hours in this game, do they really need to be catered for?

Not to mention those tend to be the self same players that refuse to spend money on the game and judge people who do. An extremely toxic element working against DE’s business model.

It’s in DE’s best interest to court new players. Because not only do new players outnumber vets a thousand to one, they are also willing to spend their money.

Edited by _R_o_g_u_e_
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