An open discussion about endgame in Warframe

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

32 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Guess I'm going to randomly butt in here (going to read the thread later, probably): "But it's a PvE game" is such a cop-out. Warframe had PvP in various forms since 2013, and neither does it have to be either/or nor does it have to be 50/50.

Examples:

• World of Warcraft. I've played it for a long time back in the day, and it had both Raids and PvP. Last I heard it's still going strong to this day.
• Fortnite: I guess the PvP part was just too successful and the PvE part sorta got sidelined for it (that's my general impression, never played it). Unlikely to happen with this game, anyway.
• StarCraft/WarCraft: Both PvE and PvP strategy games. The modding aspect was so successful that there are entire game franchises now revolving around at least one of those modes: the aforementioned DOTA and League of Legends among them.

Just because they've had it in the past, dosent mean we need to have it in the future. Warframe at its core is not a PvP game, and it's the #1 reason why I've been playing it.(and I'm probably not in the minority of players either)

The fact that this game is a power fantasy, PvP if it was supported would be massively, hilariously broken.

Everyone would just use the Meta (like the majority does right now) and how is that interesting or any fun? 

Plus rewards: I don't want to have to participate in PvP to get exclusive rewards that are not found anywhere else. Where have we seen this problem before 🤔

The point that I will agree with you on 100% is Raids, in a previous devstream they did bring this up and it sounds like it's in the pipeline but judging by that conversartion: it's likely going to be implemented in Railjack or Railjack at least will have a part in it.

Honestly if they can get the Squadlink mechanic working like in the demo (battle of Endor) then I think it could work but they also need to add Raids that don't have anything to deal with Railjack and I just don't see that happening (at least on its initial return)

Thing is: I have feeling even done right, your still not going to make everyone happy and around we go on the complain ferris wheel again.

[Zimzala]

Traditional 'endgame' is Raids and PVP to most gamers. WF is not traditional in this regard and therefore makes players think something is 'wrong' when IMO it's just designed in a different way from the ground up at this point.

IME, humans that love PvP (the real hardcore PvP crowd) are literally not capable of understanding or even allowing non-PvP lovers any air.

The hardcore PvP crowd literally think of people who prefer PvE as lesser human beings. I have dealt with this now for more than 30 years in various games, from PnP to our current virtual worlds. "Care Bears" is perhaps the nicest thing I can repeat here that I have been called for not having an overabundance of testosterone and aggression while gaming.

No amount of conversation, debate, facts, logic, emotion, ROI, or any other form of data or communication has ever, in all my years of gaming, seen a change in this outlook and behavior.

So, they don't care if adding PvP to a game has the potential to ruin the rest of the game, drive off the 'care bears', or even make the company fail.

IME, the 'hardcore' raiding community is much the same, TBH, just look at some of the 'old school raiding games' that lasted not more than 5 minutes because there are just not enough of those players to support a game these days that's not already established in the genre. GaaS games based on hardcore raiding are no longer what the general gaming population desires, from all the industry data out there in the wild that I have read. All of the GaaS games that come out of the gate with the idea that they will be the New Raid Experience seem to fail and everyone just goes back to WOW.

So the real issue is that both PvP and Raids have specific, established, GaaS games and 'house rules' that the PvP and Raid crowds 'expect'.

Nothing short of starting from scratch could add these tings into WF, based on the data available, IMO.

How on earth can people think that's good ROI? To pour millions of $ into a game redesign just because a few loud voices on the Internet want it, when history says it's a bad investment at this point?

I am not against either mode of play, not even a little, I can enjoy PvP and Raids in the right situations, I do now.

PvP would literally have to be "pick one of these X-number of loadouts" with no creative agency, or there would be no balancing it without impacting the PvE code, just like the most popular PvP games are built now.

Raids sound nice, but with P2P technology, it's again questionable ROI, when they already tried and failed here as well. I am hopeful they can make 'more engaging scenarios' for those that like them, but progression raiding is it's own thing, IME, with the rewards from it destroying any balance outside of the Raids themselves, something that is already an 'issue' for some players.

Just because there are gamers that like PvP and Raids, does not even mean those players would stay any longer in WF unless the modes were as good as the game devoted to those modes, IMO, which is, again, starting from scratch.

Would I love to have good games with these features in the World of Warframe? You bet I would!

Is that a venture with positive ROI? That's the question. With the flooded market of games, who will throw the dice and gamble tens of millions of dollars, hoping that the Warframe IP is enough to do what other have tried and failed to do? It's all about the Benjamins...

[PublikDomain]

6 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

So, they don't care if adding PvP to a game has the potential to ruin the rest of the game, drive off the 'care bears', or even make the company fail.

Because it doesn't have that potential... Warframe already has PvP, and it remains optional and the game isn't dead because of it. How can an optional system "ruin the rest of the game"? How can supporting different types of content which they have already built make the company fail?

21 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

How on earth can people think that's good ROI? To pour millions of $ into a game redesign just because a few loud voices on the Internet want it, when history says it's a bad investment at this point?

Because you can point to any of the popular competitive games as examples of PvP being a good source of long-term content? Here are the current top 10 most active games on Steam:

1. CS:GO: competitive shooter
2. Dota 2: competitive MOBA
3. Apex Legends: competitive battle-royale shooter
4. Rust: competitive sandbox/survival shooter
5. PUBG: competitive battle-royale shooter
6. TF2: competitive arena shooter
7. Valheim: cooperative sandbox/survival hack-n-slash - the only non-PvP-focused game on this list
8. Rocket League: competitive sportsball game
9. Siege: competitive shooter
10. GTAV: competitive sandbox shooter

Go figure, 9/10 of them are competitive games. Video game history says quite plainly that PvP is a fantastic way to keep players engaged for a long time.

3 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

or there would be no balancing it without impacting the PvE code

You do realize that PvP gear already has its own separate stats and mechanics and has since 2015, right? We've had player-run dedicated servers since 2016 as well. These concerns are unfounded.

11 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Raids sound nice, but with P2P technology

And you do realize that Raids have already existed in the game, supported by the very same "P2P technology"? These concerns are likewise unfounded. Raids failed because DE built JV poorly and didn't want to provide continued upkeep, not because of technological networking limitations. And they're considering building a Raid for the 3rd orb:

Quote

I keep seeing Raid go by in Chat, so - ehm - the Trials stuff, we are looking at potentially resurrecting Trials with the 3rd Orb and making the 3rd Orb into a Trial. So, that's in progress, as in on paper. So that's something we are definitely looking at and definitely wanna bring back into the game.

-DE Scott, sometime in February

Warframe has a lot of content already developed that could provide a good endgame experience with minor changes. And it's not just PvP and Raids, like some people want to laser in on, content like Invasions or Relays are already here as well and could provide a much more lively starchart to continue playing in. PvP and Raids are just two of the many potential avenues for endgame content, and if a player doesn't personally don't like them then with a healthy endgame they don't need to play them because there would be many other endgame activities to participate in. It'd be narrow-minded and selfish to believe that every potential piece of endgame content needs to cater to your personal whims.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

20 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Because it doesn't have that potential... Warframe already has PvP, and it remains optional and the game isn't dead because of it. How can an optional system "ruin the rest of the game"? How can supporting different types of content which they have already built make the company fail?

Because you can point to any of the popular competitive games as examples of PvP being a good source of long-term content? Here are the current top 10 most active games on Steam:

1. CS:GO: competitive shooter
2. Dota 2: competitive MOBA
3. Apex Legends: competitive battle-royale shooter
4. Rust: competitive sandbox/survival shooter
5. PUBG: competitive battle-royale shooter
6. TF2: competitive arena shooter
7. Valheim: cooperative sandbox/survival hack-n-slash - the only non-PvP-focused game on this list
8. Rocket League: competitive sportsball game
9. Siege: competitive shooter
10. GTAV: competitive sandbox shooter

Go figure, 9/10 of them are competitive games. Video game history says quite plainly that PvP is a fantastic way to keep players engaged for a long time.

And yet Warframe has existed for the past 8 years without any major PvP and that's all done BY DESIGN. It's not intended to be a PvP experience, it never has and hopefully never will be.

Go figure that 9 of the 10 games you listed are all designed to be exactly PvP games. (I'm never in an open GTA server, that is just the definition of toxicity)

History has absolutely nothing to do with it, by that logic every game should have PvP. 

If you want PvP content, then why are you still playing warframe? Because its literally not what it's core focus it in any way what so ever and that's the point, always has been. 

[PublikDomain]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

And yet Warframe has existed for the past 8 years without any major PvP and that's all done BY DESIGN.

We've had PvP since 2014. BY DESIGN. Solar Rail Conflicts were eventually phased out under the Armistice and replaced with Conclave, which has existed since.

Quote

- New End-Game System - the Dark Sectors! The first of the end-game projects to ship, the Dark Sectors were an area of space once inhabited, cut off, that players can reconnect with by building Solar Rails! Building Solar Rails allows for expansion and dominance into the Dark Sectors of the Solar System.

Ironically, it was specifically introduced as a "new end-game system". Go figure.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

We've had PvP since 2014. BY DESIGN. Solar Rail Conflicts were eventually phased out under the Armistice and replaced with Conclave, which has existed since.

Ironically, it was specifically introduced as a "new end-game system". Go figure.

And how is that working out??? 

It's still not the core focus of the game, how long has it been since they made that change so how exactly is that by design when the last PvP mode added......was Lunaro??? (Or frame fighter but is that really anything Serious?)

If that's your argument, it has to be the weakest argument for PvP to be included. 

Warframe is not a PvP game by design, just because it has a couple modes that barely anyone plays because they have zero interest in PvP dosent mean it's required when if you compare it to the rest of the game, it's the smallest bit of content in a long line of updates since 2014.

[CrimsonXX]

While there's interesting points brought up and ideas that can help future concepts: I stand by what I've said in the past when seeing the myth/illusion called "endgame" brought up. That its just that, a myth/illusion that for an amount of time detoured the game in chasing after it; instead of expanding the world. Whatever "endgame" is come up with within a week or two will be obsolete and will end up being talked down about. Because that's how that entire thing goes. Meanwhile in the name of chasing that solo'ers and anyone below mid-tier gets thrown to the wolves, so that others get to boost up their own ego's. If its going to be pursued it should be something truly optional and shouldn't be a focus, instead that should be on continuing to expand the world (maybe getting to Tau w/ new factions or w/e) without chasing "endgame" difficulty.

[PublikDomain]

27 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

And how is that working out??? 

Poorly, because DE never supported it. And because DE never did more than the bare minimum, people don't play it. And because people don't play it, DE continues to not support it. It's a catch 22, and it's fully in DE's power to break that cycle whenever they feel like it. If they supported it, even just a little, then it could be good and people could play it. This could provide an additional avenue of endgame content for the game. From their recent AMA, they know this and have already compiled feedback on ways to improve Conclave but haven't bothered to move on any of it.

And like I keep repeating, PvP is only ONE potential avenue of endgame content out of many. If you don't like it, don't play it, simple as that! Just because PvP doesn't have Cram Duahcim or Zimzala personal seal of approval doesn't mean it shouldn't be supported. Not every endgame activity needs to cater to you.

ETA: And just to cut it off at the pass, no, the game doesn't need to cater to me, either. If you have an idea for endgame content - any idea at all - then I fully support it. Let me know and I'll adopt it wholeheartedly. Like fashion and want more options? Improvements to Captura! Let's go! Dojo decorating? Let's get better decorating tools! Like being social? Let's get better social mechanics! OP likes endurance content, so if they want more endurance content then #*!% yeah! Add it! I don't play it, but I think it should exist anyways.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

59 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Poorly, because DE never supported it.

And I hope they continue not supporting it.

Because warframe at its core is not a PvP game. That's not what this game is about, it's literally that simple. There's plenty of other games that are PvP so if you want it. 

 

Play those instead. 

[PublikDomain]

57 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

And I hope they continue not supporting it.

Because warframe at its core is not a PvP game. That's not what this game is about, it's literally that simple. There's plenty of other games that are PvP so if you want it. 

 

Play those instead. 

And there you have it: the argument against endgame. A selfish, self-centered worldview incapable of empathy. "I don't like it so it shouldn't be in the game", as if the game is made for you and you alone. "I don't see the value in a system so it's good that it doesn't get developed", like you're the sole person that gets to dictate the content of the game. I'm not impressed.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

10 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And there you have it: the argument against endgame. A selfish, self-centered worldview incapable of empathy. 

No, what you have is someone who understands that Warframe at its core IS NOT a PvP game. Your whole argument for its addition (outlined above) is literally "Well other games do it, so should warframe" and "it adds replay value"

I've been playing since it launched on Xbox and since you've also mentioned the PvP updates I'm sure you have also been around for a while, so that right there debunks half your argument for its inclusion since you've likely been playing since 2014 right? 

That's pretty replayable don't you think 🤔

Just because I'm sharing my opinion on the matter dosent make it self centered, especially when your idea of an endgame isn't Endgame content that's not being ask for by the majority of the community.

It's why PvP is being ignored by DE in the first place or else Conclave wouldn't be in the state that it's in.

20 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

"I don't see the value in a system so it's good that it doesn't get developed", like you're the sole person that gets to dictate the content of the game. I'm not impressed.

So you get to then? Your doing exactly the same thing, except wanting PvP is probably at the very bottom of playerbased requests.

And the thing is: DE dosent see the value of further development because it's the vast majority of its playerbase (you know paying cusotmers) don't see it either.

 

It's not a PvP game, DE has literally said that from the very beginning. It has never been a critical pillar of the game. 

I couldn't care less if your impressed or not because honestly it dosent change this one fact.

PvP is not Warframe.

 

[TheArmchairThinker]

On 2021-04-15 at 4:37 AM, PublikDomain said:

I've put 2,784 hours into War Thunder, a F2P competitive vehicular combat game, and I'm not even half-way through unlocking all of the available vehicles.

And let's look why you haven't unlocked half of everything available.

Is it because the vehicle unlock price very high compared to how much you gain? Or is it because of another reason?

If long-term means a long grind, DE can make more "hema research" that requires you millions of credits and resources to unlock one item and there you go, long-term content

[TheArmchairThinker]

On 2021-04-15 at 5:34 AM, DrivaMain said:

I don’t trust DE at handling PvP. DE tried to make a PvP game back in 2016 called amazing eternals, the balance was terrible. DE then lost interest and pulled the plug. I don’t think DE wants to do another PvP game anytime soon.

Then you have another problem trying to add challenging endgame. Resistance from the player base. Challenge phobia casual crowd are big and vocal, they’ll shoot down any attempts to make this game more challenging. Another sad fact is DE always listens to them.

And I don't think DE can make a group exclusive activity without complaint considering we have one Tenno saying the third orb should be solo friendly. Man I wish I remember the name of that Tenno

[DrivaMain]

13 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And I don't think DE can make a group exclusive activity without complaint considering we have one Tenno saying the third orb should be solo friendly. Man I wish I remember the name of that Tenno

Man I wish I have the strength to be extremely vocal and be immature.

There still a lot of lone wolves out there that demands solo friendly content. If they don't exist, why DE invest a lot of dev time developing a system that was designed for solo players? I can assure you, Raids will be DoA in Warframe if they don't make it solo friendly.

[TheArmchairThinker]

5 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Man I wish I have the strength to be extremely vocal and be immature.

There still a lot of lone wolves out there that demands solo friendly content. If they don't exist, why DE invest a lot of dev time developing a system that was designed for solo players? I can assure you, Raids will be DoA in Warframe if they don't make it solo friendly.

Isn't raid or anything endgame require a team though? If it's possible solo, that means it's not an endgame, is it?

[DrivaMain]

22 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Isn't raid or anything endgame require a team though? If it's possible solo, that means it's not an endgame, is it?

There are solo endgame contents out there. Example, extremely difficult boss fights that rewards endgame tier rewards, Speedrun challenge content, etc. 

[TheArmchairThinker]

5 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

There are solo endgame contents out there. Example, extremely difficult boss fights that rewards endgame tier rewards

Such as?

5 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Speedrun challenge content

I don't think I've seen this one, and isn't speedrun not an endgame by players in this forum?

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

No, what you have is someone who understands that Warframe at its core IS NOT a PvP game. Your whole argument for its addition (outlined above) is literally "Well other games do it, so should warframe" and "it adds replay value"

And yet PvP has been a part of Warframe for 7 of its 8 years. PvP is a part of Warframe and there's no getting around that, you can plug your ears and pretend it doesn't exist but it does.

And no, there argument isn't for its addition, because it's already been added. It was added 7 years ago. The argument is for the continued support and fixing the known issues with the mode so it can be more playable and provide one of many potential avenues for endgame content.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

That's pretty replayable don't you think 🤔

It is, and there's still to this day a small but dedicated Conclave community. And it's only small because DE hasn't put any effort into the system so there's no draw for new players. Then you have the whole "Conclave is dead" meme and people who pretend it doesn't exist and it's no wonder people won't try it, or when they do with how barebones the systems are it's no wonder they don't stick around.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

So you get to then?

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

ETA: And just to cut it off at the pass, no, the game doesn't need to cater to me, either. If you have an idea for endgame content - any idea at all - then I fully support it. Let me know and I'll adopt it wholeheartedly. Like fashion and want more options? Improvements to Captura! Let's go! Dojo decorating? Let's get better decorating tools! Like being social? Let's get better social mechanics! OP likes endurance content, so if they want more endurance content then #*!% yeah! Add it! I don't play it, but I think it should exist anyways.

Do you see me saying "no" to anything like I get to decide if something gets in or not? No, no you don't.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And let's look why you haven't unlocked half of everything available.

Is it because the vehicle unlock price very high compared to how much you gain? Or is it because of another reason?

If long-term means a long grind, DE can make more "hema research" that requires you millions of credits and resources to unlock one item and there you go, long-term content

For that game in particular, it's a few things:

1. I just don't have interest in some of the vehicle trees or types. I don't particularly care for Russian or British vehicles so I don't play them. I don't have any particular interest in naval vehicles either, though I dabble a little for my favorite nation.
2. Later vehicles are very grindy and the game's monetization heavily pushes for P2W/P2P - if you're not paying for premium you're not making money or progress.
3. And relating to that the developers are scumbags so I don't play much anymore, which prevents me from unlocking things or adding more time to my hour count. And I mean it: Gaijin Entertainment sucks. They go for every scummy monetization process they can. P2W, paid premium, a player-player market where vehicles go for hundreds of dollars, locked loot boxes that require keys, overly grindy timed events, paid battle passes, gated premium bundles, etc. You name it, they do it. It makes it hard to continuously play the game - which is itself pretty fantastic - when so many things remind you of the development practices behind it.

"Content" like the Hema research is a potential long-term goal, but once it's unlocked you're done: as with all one-off content, it's only content until you complete it. This kind of content requires constant refreshing and additions, which makes it not a very good candidate for a sustainable endgame. Like with Nightwave, DE has to keep creating new stuff or else there's no stuff left to collect. That's why an endgame that focuses on community/competition/constructiveness will last longer, because DE doesn't need to make anything new: the players themselves are the content.

[Jajk0o]

Game have many mechanics for good competitions. Like pvp race at kdrive, parkour race with frames, 4v4 but who kill faster boss or complete some mission like exterminate. I think its not hard to do and balance, anyway its easier to do than new stuff like railjack. 

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

Endgame in Warframe is a never-ending cycle of

1. DE introduces harder endgame content
2. Players overcome harder content to the point it is no longer challenging
3. players demand more endgame content
4. rinse and repeat

Remember that DE has to cater to both casual and veteran players.

[White_Matter]

tl;dr

As for the topic  : End game ? What end game ?

The closes things WF had for end game were the raids and endless voids and that was like 6 years ago. WF has been driving away from end game ever since. 

End game requires exclusivity and linear progression/upgrades. Requires to have challenge, and rewards in proportion to that. WF falls short in both. 

WF will never have an end game because it simply can't. The foundaiton the game is built on doesn't allow it.

[White_Matter]

delete

[Mr.Fluffins]

Ok, so the list of endgame activites in Warframe that I can recall:

1) Sorties

2) Steel Path (Steel Path MOT survival in particular)

3) Arbitrations

4) Profit Taker

5) Trydolon hunts

6) Lich farming

Railjack used to be somewhat challenging with its own flavor of gameplay and somewhat difficult enemies, but now it is really just a clunky extra step in between regular missions.

Seems like a pretty diverse list to me. In most games I know, the end-game consists of a couple of dungeouns/locations/raids/bosses that people farm 24/7. So Warframe does have a rather big variety of endgame activites compared to other games. You know what Warframe DOESN"T have compared to most games? Soft progression resets, when a game realeases new gear that completely invalidates the previous top tier (by a large margin), and then introduces bullet-spounge new bosses or dungeouns that can only be realistically tackled with the new gear. Other games have seasonal rotations (Path of Exile), that reset your progress every 3 month. Imagine Warframe had 3-month league cycles - wast majority would never experience even 60% of the content without going at it hardcore. Or if Warframe introduced "exalted" mods, which would be like Prime mods but with better stats and even more expensive to max, or "legenedary" versions of all guns which would do 10x DPS. And then they would make the "Uber" levels that could only be properly beatable with the new gear... Now then Warframe would have "proper" modern endgame, wouldn't it? Think about what you ask before you ask it, and how the competitors on the market handle it.

Warframe never did either "soft" progress re-set (like most MMO expansions do, Path of Exile, Destiny 2) nor a "hard' progress re-set (Destiny 1 to Destiny 2). There was some slow powercreep, but considering the age of the game, it was VERY slow. You can still take boltor prime, dual zorens, trinity prime and wreck most of the enemies and missions no problem, can even be a part of a casual Trydolon hunt.

So we have a TON of players with dragon hoards of loot and items, who obviously are going to blaze through any new content that is introduced. And the moment these "veterans who are craving for challenge and endgame" are faced with something NEW they have to learn and progress through (pre-corpus expansion Railjack for example), they start crying tears about how unfair, unbalanced, broken, impossible to solo it is. When their favorite guns are even slightly touched (catchmoon example), not even nerfed to the ground, just made a bit weaker. they once again start crying on the forums. When the game introduces mechanics they can't power through with OP gear (grendel missions), they start crying again. Devs introduce steel path - "oh they are just bullet spounges", devs introduce liches 'oh my god he took one out of 4(6) revives from me, this is UNFAIR AND LAME." And any regular content is facerolled, because the playerbase could destroy lvl 500+ enemies (which the game wasn't, and still isn't even balanced around) many years ago...

The 'veterans" will never get the "endgame" they want, unless Warframe goes to the "new super gear that invalidates all old gear" route of soft progression wipes.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

8 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And yet PvP has been a part of Warframe for 7 of its 8 years. PvP is a part of Warframe and there's no getting around that, you can plug your ears and pretend it doesn't exist but it does.

And no, there argument isn't for its addition, because it's already been added. It was added 7 years ago. The argument is for the continued support and fixing the known issues with the mode so it can be more playable and provide one of many potential avenues for endgame content.

It is, and there's still to this day a small but dedicated Conclave community. And it's only small because DE hasn't put any effort into the system so there's no draw for new players. Then you have the whole "Conclave is dead" meme and people who pretend it doesn't exist and it's no wonder people won't try it, or when they do with how barebones the systems are it's no wonder they don't stick around.

Do you see me saying "no" to anything like I get to decide if something gets in or not? No, no you don't.

And again I ask you: How has it turned out? If it honestly had a significant part in Warframe, we would have seen more updates centered around it wouldn't we?

Conclaves impact overall has about as much of an impact as Lunaro so it's not just plugging my ears and pretending it dosent exist when the fact is the vast majority of Warframes playerbase (And DEs customers) are not participants in the first place.

It's literally in Warframes description, it's a co-op game first and foremost, just because they added a PvP mode dosent take away from what Warframe, at its core is about.

And ontop of that, do you trust DE to handle a PvP mode? Do you remember "The Amazing Eternals"? How did that also work out for them? (Spoiler alert, not good)

"Conclave is dead" isn't just a meme, it actually is.

I ask you this: If DE came out tomorrow and said we're removing Conclave, how many players would stop playing? Because for the past 8 years, it's something that hasn't really been cared for in the first place.