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Warframe enemies make no sense.....


CrimsonSpawn

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I remember a devstream last year, where Scott was mentioning that the infested would get a damage boost, so that players would have to keep their distance from those enemy types, at the time infested were pretty weak (well, more than they are now) so you couldn't just ram them over and would have to sort of be vary of them at close range. Now, not saying it worked but the idea did sound quite nice, that the infested are very powerful at close range and so you need to keep your distance while engaging them. It also made sense with the way infested enemies are always trying to close the distance between you and them, also ospreys exploding gas when you get too close to them. Now this is very important, since its having a profound impact on what kind of weapons I'm going to take into infested missions. Basically your telling me, hey, bring a weapon that has a fire rate, no falloff and you can use from a distance.

But then...... you introduce ancients and it makes some sense, the energy leaching and releasing of gas at close range, excellent (your reinforcing the whole, STAY AT A DISTANCE FROM THEM) but then.... you give them the harpoon function. Now your telling me, "you know what, stay at a distance, don't stay at a distance... I don't care"

Same thing with the corpus, I have absolutely no idea how the devs intend for us to approach this enemy type. Now the high fire rate and hit scans weapons mean that being at a distance is not the way to go... rather get close to them, since they are pretty weak. Telling me, being at a distance is a disadvantage so bring weapons that work in the close range. But then you throw in nulifiers an attack drones that drop no mo shield grenades, and all of a sudden the close range is the most disadvantageous area?

Same thing with the grineer, Should I bring high fire rate weapons? close range? does fall off matter?

And if there is no coherent strategy in dealing with each particular faction and the same weapons that are efficient against one faction are as efficient against all other factions, then why have different factions in the first place. Sure status and dmg types matter across, but they don't require any skill on the player's part as all is required is to switch mods. So you basically, have a copy/paste of each enemy type but.... with different skin. Looking as though each faction exists only for the lore of the game.

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why search for meaning when it is not possible and other things matter?
and in warframe there are so many tools with cc, healing, immunity etc. that "balance" is not possible at all.

people should just read less fairy tales and not make life pointlessly difficult for themselves.

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14 minutes ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

I remember a devstream last year [...]

But then...... you introduce ancients and it makes some sense, the energy leaching and releasing of gas at close range, excellent (your reinforcing the whole, STAY AT A DISTANCE FROM THEM) but then.... you give them the harpoon function

I am sorry, but are you under the impression that Ancients have been introduced between last year and now? I don't know how to tell you this, but... Ancients are as old as the Infested faction.

 

Also, I really don't get your criticism. Infested enemies are intended to be deadly at close range. Therefore they rush you (running towards you decreases the distance) and they can pull you in (dragging you to decrease the distance). So, when Scott says "we want them to be deadly at close range"... yes, we know, what's why you gave them a harpoon.

What are you expecting? That harpoons should only be used by enemies that are weak to close-ranged combat?

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I think you are interpretending to much into the "function" of the enemies. You don't have to switch your weapon type to fit it against the enemies. You choose the weapon combination which you need to kill& survive the enemies. But if you are looking for a "function" for the enemies. This is how I would interpretend them.

Grinner:

  • Extremly tanky
  • weak damage output
  • very Hard to kill, but easy to survive (perfect for beginners, because armor is in low level not so effective)

Corpus:

  • Midly survivalbility
  • middle strong damage output.
  • quite easy to kill, but a mistake can result to the death of the player.

Infested:

  • one-hit targets
  • they are able to one-hit warframes
  • alone weak, together strong

Corrupted:

  • The "elite" of the three above
    • They could need some new units.

Sentient:

  • The "endgame" enemies.
  • Highest survivalability
  • highest damage output
  • The only enemy faction which can compete with warframes.
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12 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

I am sorry, but are you under the impression that Ancients have been introduced between last year and now? I don't know how to tell you this, but... Ancients are as old as the Infested faction.

No no no no, was just using that as a an analogue that could be relatable for you to understand the point I was trying to make,

12 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

and they can pull you in (dragging you to decrease the distance).

The dragging you in bit is fine, the issue is that that's not what the ancient's bastille is. Let me give an example, suppose a charger runs at me and grabs my feet and starts to drag me to the rest so that they can simultaneously beat on me..... Here, I could see that the enemy was coming at me, I had multiple choices and could stop it from occurring and if I failed, I would say, "ok, should've avoided him or seen that coming" it also reinforces the whole STAY AT A DISTANCE FROM THEM. but that's not what the ancient does.

I'm already at a distance from the ancient, dealing with this enemy type as is intended and then it will throw the bastille that I have no way of blocking or even seeing and then drag me in, take all of my energy and at high levels insta kill me. The next time I'm gonna jump into the infested and kill the ancient. Since, the message I got across was not, maintain your distance, but rather, kill it first and instantly. And maintaining my distance is useless since its going to drag me in anyways, so might as well ram into it and kill it swiftly.

The point was that the devs are saying that they want some coherency in how we should deal with the enemies but then why have they made decisions that go against the coherency their trying to make? Hence, doesn't make sense.

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vor 29 Minuten schrieb CrimsonSpawn:

Why be lazy?

1. it depends entirely on your perception ... human assessments are based on comparisons that are also anchored in time. there are also senses that are absolutely out of sync. concrete example: one sees grass as red and others as green. there are also people who see grass as gray.
2. "Why" is the most pointless question in my opinion. here one can philosophize day and night. and a concrete result is not possible.

p.s .: what color is grass and WHY? (day and night and when it snows)

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12 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

This is how I would interpretend them.

I have to agree, this makes some sense, enemies are build around the new player experience. Which is probably why I'm frustrated by it but even then, I think the Nox treatment could be given, where generic enemies are present at easier maps and as you progress further then more enemies that require greater strategy and planning begin to pop-up.

12 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

I think you are interpretending to much into the "function" of the enemies.

I just feel as though there should be some order, rhyme or reason as to how we should deal with the enemy factions and since there are multiple then why not have multiple ways of dealing with them. Honestly, I was recently doing survival missions (completing NW of killing SP enemies for this week) all I had was a Sepfahn zaw build for 30% plus status and low crit and I used the exact same build for every single enemy type and all I could think of was, "the only difference I'm seeing between these missions is the terrain and the map". so all of these weird thoughts started coming into my head and I know its proabably because I'm tired of waiting for the new update but I just think, it not like warframe has any shortage of weapons/mods/warframes and diversity is not an issue and its not like the warframe community is lacking in creativity. So why not?

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53 minutes ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

but then.... you give them the harpoon function. Now your telling me, "you know what, stay at a distance, don't stay at a distance... I don't care"

The problem with the harpoon isn't the concept. The concept is great: they have counterplay to YOUR tools that you have to work for

No the problem is that it's jank as hell. Not only will they lead their shots PERFECTLY, but the devs mistimed when the harpoon is actually fired. OK so if you throw a ball in real life, the direction you're throwing is set in stone partway through the throw. You can't adjust after a certain point. Ancients don't play that way. Ancients will go through the ENTIRE throwing animation, in direction A, and only at the VERY END will the harpoon actually appear, going in direction B. It's jank and terrible and the devs should have been fixing it years ago

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14 minutes ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

No no no no, was just using that as a an analogue that could be relatable for you to understand the point I was trying to make,

.... suuure. You still opened a thread about "coherency" with an "analogue" that sounded like you knew nothing of the game.

So that was a good start.

16 minutes ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

The point was that the devs are saying that they want some coherency in how we should deal with the enemies but then why have they made decisions that go against the coherency their trying to make? Hence, doesn't make sense.

... no.

The "coherency" is that Infested should be dangerous at close quarters. And guess what? You have spent the whole post arguing that they are, that an ancient will kill you. That is 100% coherent.

What you are complaining about, at the end, is that the enemies have some cheap strategies to drag you into their preferred style of engagement. That not only Ancients are dangerous at close quarters, but can also force close quarters on you. Which... yes, it is cheap. That f****g harpoon is definitely cheap, we agree on that.

 

And if you say that the next time you are going to jump into the enemies and kill the Ancient before he can harpoon you... good? Not only the devs have found a way to make an enemy threatening, but they have found a way to make it SO threatening that you will willingly prehemptively switch into THEIR preferred style of engagement.

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12 hours ago, Battle.Mage said:

1. it depends entirely on your perception ... human assessments are based on comparisons that are also anchored in time.

Yes but its not like those comparisons are just up in the air and have no meaning, if you see grass differently to me then that has meaning, either you are color blind or may have a deformity. You may say, how can one tell if the green they see is different to the green that I see... well for that consult an ophthalmologist and he'll explain. Similarly, if you perform a task in X amount of time and perform the same task in Y amount of time and X is greater than Y and I completed the task before you. While it may be said that I performed better than you, since I was relatively faster; the fact that the task occurred is concrete, the manner in which it occurred is concrete and the time it was completed is concrete. The only thing being in question is if it was good/bad in the manner it occurred and was completed. However, if you exhibited greater rest times throughout the task's lifecycle then it can be inferred that you showed laziness and that was the cause of why your task took longer.

12 hours ago, Battle.Mage said:

 "Why" is the most pointless question in my opinion. here one can philosophize day and night. and a concrete result is not possible.

p.s .: what color is grass and WHY? (day and night and when it snows)

This is a huge fallacy, firstly because why answers the question of Value. As in what value does this hold. By assuming why to be a pointless question is to assume  discovering of value to be pointless cause.

Secondly, grass is green due to the large presence of chlorophyll, you may ask why is their a large presence of chlorophyll or why does chlorophyll have to occur in grass or why not in tree bark etc. People assume that this is the reason why 'Why' questions are pointless as they shall result in an infinite loop of questions. Taking the example of physical matter, Question of why can be simplified to questions of composition. Why is grass green, because it is composed of chlorophyll, as we can keep on breaking down the structure to the sub-atomic level, one can ask? can we continue to break down these structures infinitely? (barring limitations of light) well, no. Since if grass was composed of chlorophyll and chlorophyll was composed of another organism and that of another organelle and that of another and that of another and that of another and that of another.... we're entering into and infinite loop of compositions, which in reality would mean that the grass cannot exist but it does, Therefore, there must be a point where these compositions have well stopped and that is where the questions of why would be well, pointless.

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12 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

The problem with the harpoon isn't the concept. The concept is great: they have counterplay to YOUR tools that you have to work for

I somewhat agree, we have to be able to avoid it.

12 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

And if you say that the next time you are going to jump into the enemies and kill the Ancient before he can harpoon you... good?

Well no, since its going against the whole STAY AT A DISTANCE thing their trying to build, this is openly promoting me to move in and get UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL.

12 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

Not only the devs have found a way to make an enemy threatening, but they have found a way to make it SO threatening that you will willingly prehemptively switch into THEIR preferred style of engagement.

Well no, since getting UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL. ensures that I will survive, its not like I'm rolling the dice when I decide to slam attack an ancient. it would be a different thing if getting UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL was a risky thing and it was a daring feat to attain, slamming onto the ancient. Its actually hilarious, that the developer intended that the enemy be feared in close combat but in actual gameplay getting close to them is safer move to then staying at a distance.

12 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Actually the original intent was to increase the damage output of all enemy factions across the board.

DE thankfully just reduced that down to just buffing and infested damage.

I feel as though just increasing dmg output is gonna lead to more picking of frames that don't die easy and not really enriching the gameplay.

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Warframe has only once created an enemy that needs to actually be engaged by a slight change of strategy. And that was Nullifiers. And players are still whining about them.

The way the game has shifted over the years has only cemented the enemies into a simple function; the quicker they die, the better it is for the player, so shovel them at us and the only engagement the players should have is choosing whether to shoot them in the head, or use an Ability and then shoot the survivors.

There is no cohesive way to engage with a faction because they aren't meant to be engaged with.

No single enemy is supposed to be in range, or on screen even, for longer than it takes to wind up and kill them. On modes like Survival, because of the RNG drops of Life Support, you need to be killing enemies in multiples per second, or using a loot ability to make the drops appear more often. Defense lasts longer the longer you take to kill, so does Exterminate, and even the modes where killing is not the objective like Interception, Mobile Defense or Defection, killing enemies in a wide area quickly is an extremely helpful function.

What you're looking for in this is engagement.

And while the Warframe game engine has all of the elements that should require it, such as shields that block directional damage, or fields that remove powers, enemies that group up or find cover depending on where we are, or high-rate-of-fire emplacements that knock players back, DE have never actually enforced these so that they actually have solid impediments to the player. Heck, DE even adjusts spawns of Eximus units to try and prevent the player's tactics overall, with more Leeches spawning if they're using Abilities to kill, and more Arctic Eximus if we're using high rate of fire ranged or melee, so that they can slow us down. But does this actually hurt us? Nope. These are maybe half a second longer to kill than the enemies around them. That's it.

This means that the player never needs to fire off their brain for that extra second to engage them.

And it's not helped by the drop system from enemies being exactly. the. same. no matter the level or complexity of the enemies. Because even if DE did implement more engagement, forcing the players to adapt and change tactics on the fly, what reason do we have to do that? The heavies drop the same resources as the chargers, with the rare exceptions of mods, meaning that even if the enemy is more difficult to kill, or takes more engagement to kill, what would be the incentive?

DE would need to rework their enemies entirely, as in from the ground up, to give them actual structure and power over us before they would be a cohesive whole that we could use strategies against.

As much as DE pretend there's a rock-paper-scissors balance to the three main factions, with one having shields and projectile weapons, one having armour and hitscan weapons, while the third is all offense with melee and status units... that's only from a design philosophy standing. It's not from a functional standing.

Because we're not playing rock-paper-scissors, we're playing rock-paper-scissors-nuke. And Nuke always wins.

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1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

I think you are interpretending to much into the "function" of the enemies. You don't have to switch your weapon type to fit it against the enemies. You choose the weapon combination which you need to kill& survive the enemies. But if you are looking for a "function" for the enemies. This is how I would interpretend them.

Grinner:

  • Extremly tanky
  • weak damage output
  • very Hard to kill, but easy to survive (perfect for beginners, because armor is in low level not so effective)

Corpus:

  • Midly survivalbility
  • middle strong damage output.
  • quite easy to kill, but a mistake can result to the death of the player.

Infested:

  • one-hit targets
  • they are able to one-hit warframes
  • alone weak, together strong

Corrupted:

  • The "elite" of the three above
    • They could need some new units.

Sentient:

  • The "endgame" enemies.
  • Highest survivalability
  • highest damage output
  • The only enemy faction which can compete with warframes.

I hate the Corpus Trenchers because of how un-Corpus they are.

 

Theyd make perfect Infested or Grineer enemies, but definitely not Corpus

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12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

There is no cohesive way to engage with a faction because they aren't meant to be engaged with.

The only issue I have with that is that why don't the devs just own up to it then? Our game doesn't require you think much and is as easy to play as watching paint dry. I get that it may not seem all that good for their brand but even then.... HONESTY>

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Warframe has only once created an enemy that needs to actually be engaged by a slight change of strategy. And that was Nullifiers. And players are still whining about them.

I feel as though nulifiers have been badly executed, the whole thing with the Corpus should be, "You gotta get close to them, either dodge their projectiles or bite their bullets" and once you get close enough, Kill em All. The nulifier bubble on the other hand is just an incentive to stay away and attack from a distance, so incoherence.

Imagine a ferrox type weapon that a specialized Corpus unit possess. They usually use it as a sniper laser but will occasionally throw it at you and once it lands will turn into a nulifier bubble that you can't escape. the only way to get out is to destroy the point where the weapon landed, all the while being shot at by corpus units. Not only would this complement the whole, be vary of them at a longer distance but incentivize getting to them as carefully as you can.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The heavies drop the same resources as the chargers, with the rare exceptions of mods, meaning that even if the enemy is more difficult to kill, or takes more engagement to kill, what would be the incentive?

Well the human brain releases endorphins when you accomplish something. That is why some players feel good when they see large damage numbers, because in their mind, the builds that they've invested and grinded in have helped them achieve something. Similarly by requiring strategies to overcome enemies, they have become harder as now the player's success is no longer solely on the build they came in with but how they perform in the actual gameplay. Success shall seem far more difficult to achieve and thus more valuable and thus more rewarding to play.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

DE would need to rework their enemies entirely, as in from the ground up, to give them actual structure and power over us before they would be a cohesive whole that we could use strategies against.

I would agree but I feel as though they would just introduce limitations such as enemies that can now block your melee or enemies with a shield that require punch through or enemies that you can't proc status on or enemies with a force field you have to shoot. But it would be very nice if they took a, "how should the player fight this enemy? and why that is an enjoyable experience for them?" approach, as opposed to, "how frustrating can I make this for them?"

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25 minutes ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

I would agree but I feel as though they would just introduce limitations such as enemies that can now block your melee or enemies with a shield that require punch through

Ex. Bloody. Actly.

And you're kind of proving my earlier point by reacting in such a negative way to the concept.

Engagement shifts mean that an enemy does exactly have an immunity to a form of damage, such as melee, or a shield that blocks ranged (and not even Punch Through stats work), or are resistant to most damage types and extremely vulnerable to one.

Thing is, the game has these, they just don't make them powerful against us. They don't apply these as rules, only suggestions.

That's exactly what engagement is, having enemies that you cannot approach in one way and have to approach in another, while your abilities are the tie-breaker if multiple enemies are swarming and preventing your use of all other methods. DE's biggest mistake with enemy engagement was 'The Sword Alone' update, and concept, because it means that all enemies have to be able to be killed if you have a melee and nothing else.

By literally dumbing down the engagement, they have shifted over time to the point that there is none at all. New Amalgam enemies? Doesn't matter, they're on screen for only a few seconds anyway, and you change nothing about how you approach them compared to regular enemies. New variants of Corpus or Grineer? Same again, you still can charge in and hit them with a sword and get results on par with, or exceeding, the effects of guns.

DE have fed this chain until its at the lowest common denominator.

And that's why they would have to start again and redesign their combat engagement from the ground up.

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vor 42 Minuten schrieb Birdframe_Prime:

Ex. Bloody. Actly.

And you're kind of proving my earlier point by reacting in such a negative way to the concept.

Engagement shifts mean that an enemy does exactly have an immunity to a form of damage, such as melee, or a shield that blocks ranged (and not even Punch Through stats work), or are resistant to most damage types and extremely vulnerable to one.

Thing is, the game has these, they just don't make them powerful against us. They don't apply these as rules, only suggestions.

That's exactly what engagement is, having enemies that you cannot approach in one way and have to approach in another, while your abilities are the tie-breaker if multiple enemies are swarming and preventing your use of all other methods. DE's biggest mistake with enemy engagement was 'The Sword Alone' update, and concept, because it means that all enemies have to be able to be killed if you have a melee and nothing else.

By literally dumbing down the engagement, they have shifted over time to the point that there is none at all. New Amalgam enemies? Doesn't matter, they're on screen for only a few seconds anyway, and you change nothing about how you approach them compared to regular enemies. New variants of Corpus or Grineer? Same again, you still can charge in and hit them with a sword and get results on par with, or exceeding, the effects of guns.

DE have fed this chain until its at the lowest common denominator.

And that's why they would have to start again and redesign their combat engagement from the ground up.

From the ground up would be easy, but it will more or less destroy the warframe combat. 

It would be better if DE does what can they do best. Makes God's (Warframes) fight God's (Sentient). Everyone is stupidly overpowered on their own way and this makes them equal again.

I mean it's possible, but will DE try it?

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There is actually some strategy and abilities to use against each faction that make a considerable difference. God bless the helminth system.

You seem to specifically have gripes with the infested. I don't blame you. Those bledy ancient distrupters with their grappling hooks that drain your energy in one hit. Those pesky drones that leave fart clouds that 1 shot you through shields. Well my friend, I give unto you the power of silence.

Banshee's subsume ability disables enemy abilities. Grappling hooks are gone. No more fart clouds. The drones just hover around you powerless. Chargers loose there spit attack. I believe the only unit that can attack from range is the tar moa that can cover the floor in goop. Otherwise the infested are forced to only melee.

Extra tip: Radiation procs or an ability like nyx's chaos will essentially turn off enemy aura's meaning no more damage resistance from healers and no more energy drain auras. Combining silence with nyx's chaos turn infested into confused vegetables.

Alternatively just use revenant. His mesmer skin makes him immune to knockdowns, energy drain attacks, gas clouds and death in general (not immune to the drain auras, batteries not included).

Corpus and grineer are a bit easier to prep for imo and there are plenty of ways to combat them buuuut...

Corpus: nullies suck but a fast firing weapon knocks out those bubbles no problem. Alternatively there is a mod you can get for the mitter called neutralizing justice (i think), which one shots nullie bubbles. They do big damage from range and some of there aoe stuff is a one or two shot on higher difficulties. Either grab a very tanky frame or you need to move around a lot to avoid those aoe attacks.

Grineer are pretty straight forward. Loads of armor strips in the game to deal with them.

Damage is pretty meta in this game but don't underestimate cc and defensive abilities. Zephyr's turbulance for example pretty much nullifies 90% of corpus/grineer/corrupted damage output and using a subsume ability like shooting gallery can stun melee enemies charging at you rounding out her defence.

I like the diversity of the enemy types and I believe there are many ways to deal with each faction. Even if they don't seem to make sense at first you gotta force them to make sense sometimes xD 

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50 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Makes God's (Warframes) fight God's (Sentient).

Sentient Vs. warframe. Sentients are immune to most warframe abilities while sentient homing crap gets you every time. Not to mention the laser spin of doom. Sentient are not just resistant but outright IMMUNE. At that point the only thing a warframe has is a gun and how many hits it can take before it keels over. Considering how DE loves making enemies immune to warframe abilities, they are as far from gods of war as can be. Just another random mook with a gun.

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afaik harpoon mechanic existed way before than just few years and they copied the exact scorpion animation on them as well ... the leather human made scorpion harpoon .. anyway we dont have smart ai rn anyways theyre just bunch of stat balls and you should see it that way too , elevates unnecessary expectations from them , tho if theyre gonna implement good ai then they have to tone down their numbers and making our cc weaker which is a lot work i reckon and you know how game devs in general  like to offer simple solutions to complex problems .. yah its a dead end haha 

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11 hours ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

I'm already at a distance from the ancient, dealing with this enemy type as is intended and then it will throw the bastille that I have no way of blocking or even seeing and then drag me in, take all of my energy and at high levels insta kill me. The next time I'm gonna jump into the infested and kill the ancient. Since, the message I got across was not, maintain your distance, but rather, kill it first and instantly. And maintaining my distance is useless since its going to drag me in anyways, so might as well ram into it and kill it swiftly.

You can block them mate, I won't say it's easy. It takes practice and enemy awareness in 360 degrees around you. You can also shoot them when they do it, or roll or if you're fast will also do the job. 

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