Arcane Energize and energy economy deserve a "little" nerf

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

47 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Not really, I can see flaws but I also can still enjoy the game regardless, since "end game" for me just spice things up. I've never said "we" or you were suffering or anything besides that the game has balance issues, and anyone capable of thinking can see it, it's even admited by devs on multiple devstreams. So keep your assumptions about me wanting to save you, save players or the game inside your head, where it belongs.

Every game has balance issues. It means people will always find something to complain about.

[(PSN)lydon123]

1 hour ago, Skaleek said:

As long as you don't go in another thread and complain about challenge and lack of difficult content.

That was A.I specific. No need to ignore context and drip salt ;)

[vanaukas]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Every game has balance issues. It means people will always find something to complain about.

Of course, I also never said anything that resembles the opossite opinion on that. But this kind of balance issues directly negates any attempt of devs wanting to do "challenge" content as they try to do every single time, and that challenge content it's watered down a few updates later because for new players it's impossible to do, then it becomes trivial for everyone else that's not a new player wich leads to the "boredom" of players wich also pushes the devs to try a different approach to end on the same cycle of "hard" enemies and then lowering them down. You are too new (according to your own post you've been here like 1 year or 2) to have seen this repeteadly, but it's a consistent pattern at this point.

I don't want to imply that the game is dying or anything under that paranoia umbrella (because I don't believe that), I'm just trying to have an opinion based on facts rather subjective stuff like "fun" (I'm baffled to read so many responses based on that), and it's a fact the balance issues with things like only slash doing procs of true damage, ability spam or melee having zero restraints on use, wich directly trivializes almost every content, the only content that cannot be touch by those problems is content immune to status procs, immunte to abilities, immune to melee using weak points... If devs have to take so many countermeassures to do a challenge, isn't showing a problem?

In any case, devs are free to keep ths cycle going as much as they can, but nerfs to the stuff I've mentioned will keep coming (as other pointed out here, energy regen/gain has been nerfed many times for example) regardless of the "fun" on ability spam, regardles of the "fun" on dealing true damage and regardless the arguments in favor of no balance because "it's pve", nerfs will come due the fact that they cannot sustain longer development times if players trivializes everything and rush inan few days content that was developed under months (or even years) of hard work. Maybe you'll say I'm speculating, but they've also had mentioned it in devstreams.

[vanaukas]

34 minutes ago, (PSN)lydon123 said:

That was A.I specific. No need to ignore context and drip salt ;)

Current AI is very capable of doing a lot  of stuff that's constantly suggested by players (like enemies ambushing the player, enemies flanking, enemies taking cover, enemies making use of their own powerful units created to counter frames, etc) but since we can delete them so fast or stop them completely they can't "upgrade" them since it's just pointless. This had ben said by 2 different devs (Pablo and Scott), wich are directly involved in the game design, so I honestly don't understand the "AI issues" people usually spout like if it was a single issue on its own rather a systemic issue related to frame powercreep, due the "needs of fun" of a large portion of the player base, wich consist on clearing content as fast as they can to later complain that there is nothing else to do in game.

[XzWasPzX]

I dont care if someone said it before, so I'm gonna repeat it: NO and thousand times NO

[XzWasPzX]

hace 1 hora, Krankbert dijo:

It doesn't. I'm sorry you're bad at it.

Well, tbh the Infested in Steel Path might get most players in serious troubles If you loose control of the situation, energy leeches, health leeches, knockdowns... The damage increase they received has been really good to make them challenging again. Corpus also, and corrupted, are dangerous because of the nullifiers, and their strategy to make control zones. I'd say there is challenge if you know where to find it, but usually takes too much time to reach it. 

[(PSN)lydon123]

10 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Current AI is very capable of doing a lot  of stuff that's constantly suggested by players (like enemies ambushing the player, enemies flanking, enemies taking cover, enemies making use of their own powerful units created to counter frames, etc) but since we can delete them so fast or stop them completely they can't "upgrade" them since it's just pointless. This had ben said by 2 different devs (Pablo and Scott), wich are directly involved in the game design, so I honestly don't understand the "AI issues" people usually spout like if it was a single issue on its own rather a systemic issue related to frame powercreep, due the "needs of fun" of a large portion of the player base, wich consist on clearing content as fast as they can to later complain that there is nothing else to do in game.

There is also constant discussion about the Ai and players suggesting how bad it is. You could google 'warframe ai', and there is a long line of threads, many in the last two years that discuss the ai in warframe. I would be willing to bet there are more posts critiquing the ai than there is suggesting it is capable.

I remember there being a post that quoted pablo in saying that we could have the best ai out there but it would not matter because we can just freeze them in a massive aoe and shoot them in the face. We would first have to nerf warframe abilities and that could cause a lot of friction in the player base.

Seems we can't have both meaningful difficulty and fun overpowered abilities. This kinda went off topic. I really wish there was a way to have both and keep everyone happy.

 

[Kaiga]

[Zeddypanda]

2 hours ago, (PSN)lydon123 said:

Seems we can't have both meaningful difficulty and fun overpowered abilities. This kinda went off topic. I really wish there was a way to have both and keep everyone happy.

 

This reminds me of an anecdote from the developers of Halo. While making the first game, they had playtesters evaluate how smart they found the AI to be. Several tweaks and improvements to the AI did not improve the evaluation, but doubling health did.

It also reminds me of how praised the fights against Kuva Liches are, even though they're just the same morons as any grineer but with an inflated health pool, a dangerous gun, and a melee punisher.

[AlexMercer]

no

[wizardeiges]

NO! stop trying to get the game changed to be trashestiny or dark souls. 
Don't change what isn't broken. The game is a power fantasy,not a suffering simulator.

All you ever do is complain about the power fantasy and the core of the game. Clearly you aren't having fun so why waste your time with it.

[Prexades]

Part of me wants a better system than the old 'collect orbs for energy', with all the numerous bandaids of Arcanes, Zenurik focus etc. But then again, the entire system of health orbs is tied to it and would have to be changed as well and the kits of multiple Warframes with it. Probably a bigger headache than it is worth.

[(PSN)Adometro]

You forgot to nerf exodia brave

[wizardeiges]

What manner of trolling is this? MR 1 with 1 hour time played. Either a spare account or nefarious acting from a competitor trying to ruin the game. 

[TheArmchairThinker]

9 hours ago, Krankbert said:

It doesn't. I'm sorry you're bad at it.

And what is challenge then, if not the game throwing odds against you with enemies being tougher and deal more damage than you do, scarce or limited resources you need to manage, and so on on other games?

[TheArmchairThinker]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Adometro said:

You forgot to nerf exodia brave

I'd say exodia brave energy gain is pretty small for a total of 20 energy on heavy attack direct kill and doesn't refresh so it's still on acceptable level to me

[CaptainMinty]

All of the "No." responses on this thread absolutely are not seeing the problem that the current energy economy creates.

Currently, I have 0 reason to worry about energy on almost any frame I pick. It might as well be infinite for them. And considering how powerful most Warframe abilities are, this creates a massive problem. If I have nothing stopping me from spamming my auto aim ultimate, then nothing that isn't immune to it should even bother existing. They exist at my leisure. Which isn't really the point of an enemy now is it? Sure, fodder enemies will almost always exist. But right now I shouldn't have the energy to Reckoning that one Butcher just because screw him he doesn't deserve my guns he deserves a full ultimate all on his own.

And for those of you who say this game is a power fantasy game, I would like all of you to watch One Punch Man. Pay attention to Saitama's plight a little more and you'll see the issue with a power fantasy. Energy should be a resource to utilize against heavy opponents. Ultimate abilities should be your go to heavy damage for the tankiest bads and the thiccest lads. Bosses and other whatnot.

While OP may be wrong on several points, they are right to bring up the topic as Warframe has a very dire Energy problem and the amount of enemies currently immune or partially immune to powers show just how problematic it is. How many bosses can be stopped by Limbo's Stasis for example?

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

10 hours ago, (PSN)lydon123 said:

Seems we can't have both meaningful difficulty and fun overpowered abilities. This kinda went off topic. I really wish there was a way to have both and keep everyone happy.

 

Potentially a tighter energy economy could allow that. Creating a scenario where players generally dispatch enemies with weapons and cheap small scale powers. Big flashy powers need to be reserved for when the enemy become overwhelming in number or a powerful enemy turns up. Unless you meant being able to spam OP powers in which case yeah that and challenge aren't at all compatible.

[(PSN)thowed]

What happened to the guy with all the youtube subscribers?  I enjoyed his topics much more.

[vegetosayajin]

3 hours ago, (PSN)thowed said:

What happened to the guy with all the youtube subscribers?  I enjoyed his topics much more.

You summoned him, why would you do that...

[TheArmchairThinker]

On 2021-04-14 at 4:28 AM, Prexades said:

Part of me wants a better system than the old 'collect orbs for energy', with all the numerous bandaids of Arcanes, Zenurik focus etc. But then again, the entire system of health orbs is tied to it and would have to be changed as well and the kits of multiple Warframes with it. Probably a bigger headache than it is worth.

You still have trinity and energy restore to bring so trinity becomes a good partner for team or energy restore for solo

[Aldain]

Were I to change the energy economy I'd put a heavier cooldown on energy restores, halve the gain from energize/Zenurik methods and give all frames a small amount of natural energy regen.

But that's just me.

[Chicken-Biryani]

On 2021-04-13 at 11:50 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how you can play with almost zero care on managing your energy to spam abilities and reversing the odds, and heaven forbids we can have a game where you can play the game without engaging the game or putting a care on your resources, let's nerf the energy economy for today.

1. Arcane Energize

Seeing how you can easily get 150 energy burst from collecting an energy orb, it makes energy management trivial so I'm changing its function

- Changed from 60% chance to get 150 bonus energy to you and nearby allies to 'Chance to gain 100% more energy on energy pickup'

Why? By changing it to gain extra energy instead of high flat amount of energy, energy economy will be still manageable but not at the point of making them non-problem

2. Energizing Dash

5 energy per second that lasts 30 seconds is deemed too fast for energy gain so I'm balancing the gain

- Changed to 2 energy per second that lasts for 50 seconds

3. Energy Restore

- Unable to deploy another restore until the second burst

Why? To prevent spamming and making energy economy obsolete

More will be monitored

It's optional, if you don't want to use energy arcanes. It's totally possible to forego them and use something else. After all, the difficulty is in your hands. If you want to break the meta, it's as easy as changing your own loadouts. 

Or are you simply looking to farm upvotes on the forums with oft-repeated clout generating posts?

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

On 2021-04-14 at 3:58 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

And what is challenge then, if not the game throwing odds against you with enemies being tougher and deal more damage than you do, scarce or limited resources you need to manage, and so on on other games?

Challenge boils down to engagement, and engagement boils down to having to react to stimuli in specific timeframes, or suffer a degree of consequence. A game where everything one shots you with hitscan weaponry isn't challenging for example, just unfairly difficult.

Warframe's biggest issue is that it allows to outsource every mechanic to a passive procedure through gear, and not only does it give you such an option, it actively encourages it with enemy design and mission structure. Offense can be simplified from using aim and matching weaknesses to overkill area damage, with all enemies except very few outliers being susceptible to that, and most missions revolving around KPM. Survivability quickly goes from mobility, dodging and positioning to passive immortality through DR stacking and abilities, to the point where with some setups you can't die even if you wanted to in reward-relevant content, and the game does nothing but reinforce that playstyle with hitscan/AoE weaponry from enemies, and zero attacks that are threatening but telegraphed. The whole energy economy, which should provide those "feel good" bursts when using abilities, is entirely passive and RNG dependent, with the only relevant exceptions being Garuda, Nidus, Lavos, Spellbind harvest Titania and maybe Harrow, whose mechanics could offer a baseline idea for how an active ability economy, free of external RNG sources, could look like.

[Kaggelos]

Meh, i'd remove all energy and health orbs from the game (including arcane energize), and make us have another, reliable, active and stable way of gaining both health and energy.

All Warframes will have by default their own energy passive regen, up to about 50% of their max Energy Pool. The rest will have to be filled either by killing enemies, all of which, depending on their type and level, will give you a small amount of energy (i aint gonna figure out the numbers, others are better suited to do this than me).

Same with health. Also, no Magus Elevate. Spamming a key to get health is just bad. Make me get health by being actually good in the game. Or at least make it not percentage-chance based, but with a cool down and guaranteed health gain.

Methods for energy regen that incentivize active pursuit of this mechanic will remain as is, like killing enemies with heavy attacks with zaws and gaining energy (thats an arcane), or even hunter adrenaline, if you like to live dangerously.

As for Energizing Dash, im not sure. Either make it a waybound passive for all focus schools, or remove it entirely, as you'll have other, equally reliable methods of gaining energy.

This btw will also solve the early game energy economy (or rather the non-existent energy economy of early game).