Arcane Energize and energy economy deserve a "little" nerf

[Kaggelos]

On 2021-04-13 at 9:20 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

3. Energy Restore

- Unable to deploy another restore until the second burst

Why? To prevent spamming and making energy economy obsolete

Agreed 100% on this. It's really... well, aesthetically unappealing looking at all those energy pads being spammed like lmg rounds xD

[TheArmchairThinker]

20 hours ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

Challenge boils down to engagement, and engagement boils down to having to react to stimuli in specific timeframes, or suffer a degree of consequence. A game where everything one shots you with hitscan weaponry isn't challenging for example, just unfairly difficult.

Warframe's biggest issue is that it allows to outsource every mechanic to a passive procedure through gear, and not only does it give you such an option, it actively encourages it with enemy design and mission structure. Offense can be simplified from using aim and matching weaknesses to overkill area damage, with all enemies except very few outliers being susceptible to that, and most missions revolving around KPM. Survivability quickly goes from mobility, dodging and positioning to passive immortality through DR stacking and abilities, to the point where with some setups you can't die even if you wanted to in reward-relevant content, and the game does nothing but reinforce that playstyle with hitscan/AoE weaponry from enemies, and zero attacks that are threatening but telegraphed. The whole energy economy, which should provide those "feel good" bursts when using abilities, is entirely passive and RNG dependent, with the only relevant exceptions being Garuda, Nidus, Lavos, Spellbind harvest Titania and maybe Harrow, whose mechanics could offer a baseline idea for how an active ability economy, free of external RNG sources, could look like.

And even if we want to say challenge, let's put yourself in enemy's shoes. How can you engage your enemies when you're

- Cut down to pieces out of nowhere and no enemies in sight

- Helplessly hanging on a spear impaling you through your spine

- Frozen solid

- Coated with molten glass and turned into a glass statue

- Constantly burned

- Blown up with explosive detonating from the other side of the wall

- Burned from 50 meters away

- Contaminated with miasma out of nowhere

- Forcefully put to sleep

- Having infectious spores sticking to you and drain your life away

- Helplessly hanging in midair before getting sucked into a vortex

- Being a sacrifice on an altar, unable to do anything

- Petrified and smashed into pieces

- Slowed down and have your molecules primed

- Gunned down with high firing speed revolver with infinite ammo

- Blinded

- etc

Would you kindly tell me how can you engage a single enemy when affected by one or two of those things I listed above?

[Redfeather75]

I like how there are many options to energy and how you can choose one or two or more depending on how ability focused your build is. I likes it.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2021-04-13 at 12:20 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how you can play with almost zero care on managing your energy to spam abilities and reversing the odds, and heaven forbids we can have a game where you can play the game without engaging the game or putting a care on your resources, let's nerf the energy economy for today.

1. Arcane Energize

Seeing how you can easily get 150 energy burst from collecting an energy orb, it makes energy management trivial so I'm changing its function

- Changed from 60% chance to get 150 bonus energy to you and nearby allies to 'Chance to gain 100% more energy on energy pickup'

Why? By changing it to gain extra energy instead of high flat amount of energy, energy economy will be still manageable but not at the point of making them non-problem

2. Energizing Dash

5 energy per second that lasts 30 seconds is deemed too fast for energy gain so I'm balancing the gain

- Changed to 2 energy per second that lasts for 50 seconds

3. Energy Restore

- Unable to deploy another restore until the second burst

Why? To prevent spamming and making energy economy obsolete

More will be monitored

No.

 

If YOU dont like having good energy supply in your builds feel free to nerf YOUR builds.

 

Dont ask DE to break everyone else's toys so you can play the game the way you think it should be when there is nothing from stopping you from doing it now.

 

This post and posts like it are like asking McDonalds to stop putting cheese on everyone else's burger just because you dont like cheese on YOUR burger.

 

Never mind that you dont need to order cheese on your burger.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Le 13/04/2021 à 08:20, TheArmchairThinker a dit :

Seeing how you can play with almost zero care on managing your energy to spam abilities and reversing the odds, and heaven forbids we can have a game where you can play the game without engaging the game or putting a care on your resources, let's nerf the energy economy for today.

1. Arcane Energize

Seeing how you can easily get 150 energy burst from collecting an energy orb, it makes energy management trivial so I'm changing its function

- Changed from 60% chance to get 150 bonus energy to you and nearby allies to 'Chance to gain 100% more energy on energy pickup'

Why? By changing it to gain extra energy instead of high flat amount of energy, energy economy will be still manageable but not at the point of making them non-problem

2. Energizing Dash

5 energy per second that lasts 30 seconds is deemed too fast for energy gain so I'm balancing the gain

- Changed to 2 energy per second that lasts for 50 seconds

3. Energy Restore

- Unable to deploy another restore until the second burst

Why? To prevent spamming and making energy economy obsolete

More will be monitored

If you feel that you have too much energy you should just play steel path survival against infested more than 20min.

Problem solved.

[Evanescent]

The energy economy is a joke, yes. 

At this point energy management is just not an issue in the game anymore. I'd be in favor of bringing it more in line, but I expect many will fight to keep infinite energy as a fantasy, even if works to the detriment of the game.

You would need to go over the frames case by case with a fine tooth comb, checking sustain and so on. Promoting teamplay by giving frames roles can never be a bad thing. 

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

If you feel that you have too much energy you should just play steel path survival against infested more than 20min.

Problem solved.

Exactly. And everyone that plays isn't using a full group spamming dispensary and Garas 3 augment.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

6 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And even if we want to say challenge, let's put yourself in enemy's shoes. How can you engage your enemies when you're

 

Yeah, your list is mostly a disingenuous repetition of "hard cc and death". It's honestly fairly easy to imagine a setting where enemies can do something, and it all starts with a system where the player has some weakness. By that, I don't mean the dark souls strawman people like to throw around here, I mean that there's a baseline set of comparable outputs a player should fall into, regarding damage, cc and survivability, against which enemies can be tuned. For damage and survivability, that just means moving some numbers to be closer together, and scaling down multipliers. For CC, first and foremost you need to move away from a system where the energy economy either disallows you to do anything because you are always out, or is so abundant that it's not even an issue and you can spam infinitely. A "charge" system where each ability has a set of charges with fixed recharge rates has been thrown around before, or much more simply, you could remove external sources in favor of a passively regenerating energy pool. A system like that is easily controllable by not being RNG-dependent, and it also leaves massive room for combos and depth, with maybe specific mechanics that boost charge rates/energy regen, give free casts, etc, and interactions with melee/gunplay to incentivize using all three systems in unison. Warframe needs to tone down the extremes, both in the new player experience, where abilities might as well not exist, and endgame, where energy is a non-issue.

Once the frequency of ability usage is in a certain predictable range, it itself imposes limitations to permanent CC/AoE damage, but you can go further and design actual heavy units that have resistance. Resistance, not immunity: immunity makes you feel powerless, and that is ultimately not fun, much like seeing infinite 0s on invulnerable enemies. CC Resistance could take the form of a "step-down" system, where hard CC on the unit, like a freeze, becomes a soft CC, like a slow, and soft CC abilities get further reduced in effectiveness, on top of diminishing returns in duration on boss enemies. This as well leaves room for specificity and cool interactions, like multiple casts of the same Hard CC breaking through the resistance and becoming actual Hard CC on the heavy unit, so on and so forth. 

You've admitted yourself in a previous post that your threads are basically trolling to ridicule those who believe in toning down the players for a more engaging experience, so you exaggerate the need for nerfs in an attempt to generate outrage, but you completely miss the fact that tuning the game so it approaches any semblance of balancing not only can be done without touching its identity, but it actually improves on it and makes the whole much more harmonious, without the need of the endless, arbitrary limitations the devs frantically put together on every new activity to avoid us trivializing everything and optimizing the fun out of the game. 

[SpicyDinosaur]

On 2021-04-13 at 2:20 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how you can play with almost zero care on managing your energy to spam abilities and reversing the odds, and heaven forbids we can have a game where you can play the game without engaging the game or putting a care on your resources, let's nerf the energy economy for today.

1. Arcane Energize

Seeing how you can easily get 150 energy burst from collecting an energy orb, it makes energy management trivial so I'm changing its function

- Changed from 60% chance to get 150 bonus energy to you and nearby allies to 'Chance to gain 100% more energy on energy pickup'

Why? By changing it to gain extra energy instead of high flat amount of energy, energy economy will be still manageable but not at the point of making them non-problem

2. Energizing Dash

5 energy per second that lasts 30 seconds is deemed too fast for energy gain so I'm balancing the gain

- Changed to 2 energy per second that lasts for 50 seconds

3. Energy Restore

- Unable to deploy another restore until the second burst

Why? To prevent spamming and making energy economy obsolete

More will be monitored

That and ways of self healing need a big nerf imo. I would settle for a little nerf at least but you can see the toxic response from vocal players on the forums already. More people need to be willing to speak up about making the game less of a snore fest.

[project_eulogy]

This is similar to the Nerf Saryn thread cuz folks in a PUG are mad at getting out shined by a Saryn.

 

Here's my suggestion:

-Stay in your lane
-Stop using Meta, create your own challenges
-Solo/Squad up, don't use matchmaking

Your agitation is another's serenity.

Been playing since 2016, MR30. Never once have I used Arcane Energize, despite heavily raiding in clans like RV. Create your own challenge. There's so much broken in this game, they have other priorities than hindering fun. They do that enough as it is.

An analogy my grandpa used before he died some time ago, was: if you don't like the coffee creamer, don't use it. there's no reason calling up Nestle and demanding they change the flavor of that particular creamer since they have such a vast amount of choices.

Pick a different coffee creamer.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

3 minutes ago, project_eulogy said:

Your agitation is another's serenity.

I can't wait to see the forums when Guns 2.0 is out because of what that means to melee.

Arcanes don't need a nerf. At all. I find there overall impact don't make them necessary to use to complete anything in game.

I went years with not giving them any thought, and the overall impact I see on them now? It's about the same, I couldn't care less about there existence or care about it in the state it's in. 

11 minutes ago, project_eulogy said:

An analogy my grandpa used before he died some time ago, was: if you don't like the coffee creamer, don't use it. there's no reason calling up Nestle and demanding they change the flavor of that particular creamer since they have such a vast amount of choices.

Pick a different coffee creamer.

A wise man 👍

[Loza03]

46 minutes ago, project_eulogy said:

This is similar to the Nerf Saryn thread cuz folks in a PUG are mad at getting out shined by a Saryn.

 

Here's my suggestion:

-Stay in your lane
-Stop using Meta, create your own challenges
-Solo/Squad up, don't use matchmaking

Your agitation is another's serenity.

Been playing since 2016, MR30. Never once have I used Arcane Energize, despite heavily raiding in clans like RV. Create your own challenge. There's so much broken in this game, they have other priorities than hindering fun. They do that enough as it is.

An analogy my grandpa used before he died some time ago, was: if you don't like the coffee creamer, don't use it. there's no reason calling up Nestle and demanding they change the flavor of that particular creamer since they have such a vast amount of choices.

Pick a different coffee creamer.

To use that coffee creamer analogy to explain why this doesn't entirely apply:

So, sure tons of different Coffee Creamers available. But unfortunately, the game shop that you play your weekly Warhammer/DnD/whatever session at only stocks the one kind that the shop owner likes and doesn't let you bring outside foods or drinks in. You have to go there to engage with the thing you like and you hate coffee without creamer even more, so you're stuck.

The other options exist, and you can choose them, but the universe isn't exactly making it easy on you unless you say to the shop owner 'Hey, could you get in this other creamer that I like, maybe?'

 

A ton of stuff in Warframe is designed with the idea you have vast amounts of energy reserves available, or other facets of 'the meta'. A lot of newer or reworked frames are energy hungry, a lot of new content is (trying to be) balanced around the Meta with the assumption you're using it and frankly, matchmaking quick play is a core part of a Co-op game experience which Warframe ultimately is. And the game, for a lot of people, just isn't very fun when you do that. But that's the game DE are making, and the game people enjoyed is becoming a smaller and smaller percent of the total despite the fact that a reasonable compromise can exist.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

9 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

If you feel that you have too much energy you should just play steel path survival against infested more than 20min.

Problem solved.

I mean isn't the entire point of Steel Path in the first place?  To make it overall more difficult.

I mean we're both stating the obvious here 🤣

 

[Angwah]

1 hour ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Is this a thing now? Where you follow me around and attack me personally? Honestly, I don't think you have anything of value to post. So I am going to make sure I don't have to see your posts at all.

Ah yes. Zimzala and Madurai really do have nothing to contribute to any discussion except to defend the status quo and attack anybody who dares make suggestions. And if the status quo changes they'll defend the new status quo, even if it turns out to contradict their old positions, so it is not as they really have opinions of their own, except of course that your opinion is bad. Putting them on ignore is a good option indeed if you do not find their posturing funny.

Anyway, yes, the energy economy needs a rework. Currently, there is almost no middle ground between the two extremes of purely depending on blue orbs dropping or having infinite energy. Even worse, the infinite energy is implemented in the most boring way possible, namely just pushing a button. Both no energy as well as infinite energy sucks. 

[Zimzala]

12 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Ah yes. Zimzala and Madurai really do have nothing to contribute to any discussion except to defend the status quo and attack anybody who dares make suggestions. And if the status quo changes they'll defend the new status quo, even if it turns out to contradict their old positions, so it is not as they really have opinions of their own, except of course that your opinion is bad. Putting them on ignore is a good option indeed if you do not find their posturing funny.

Um, show me?

I love change. I love that WF changes constantly. I have not love for the Status Quo in virtually any way, I am a promoter of change in RL as well.

I attack ideas, the people behind them choose to take those attacks as personal, that's on them, it's all part of maturing and learning how a debate works, IME.

How is asking "Why?" and wanting to understand the motives behind the changes a poster suggests defend the Status Quo?

How is disagreeing an idea is a 'good thing', you know sharing an opinion, defending the Status Quo?

How is wanting to live in Reality, to talk about the things that really can be done with the resources available, with real ROI for WF/DE, defending the Status Quo?

So, show me. Show me where I do what you claim.

I do not always care to share my ideas about how things could be better for one reason and one reason only...DE does not pay me. If I am going to share real, concrete, actionable ideas to improve the state of game that makes a ton of cash, I want my cut. 

So sure, I may not 'contribute' in the way you and others 'approve', but challenging ideas is not defending the Status Quo.

I have several posters on ignore and I encourage anyone that feels they need to to put me on ignore as well, but, do it for real reasons.

I attack and challenge Ideas, not People, and I love change, I love to see WF change, I love to experience the growth.

[SpicyDinosaur]

11 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Ah yes. Zimzala and Madurai really do have nothing to contribute to any discussion except to defend the status quo and attack anybody who dares make suggestions. And if the status quo changes they'll defend the new status quo, even if it turns out to contradict their old positions, so it is not as they really have opinions of their own, except of course that your opinion is bad. Putting them on ignore is a good option indeed if you do not find their posturing funny.

Anyway, yes, the energy economy needs a rework. Currently, there is almost no middle ground between the two extremes of purely depending on blue orbs dropping or having infinite energy. Even worse, the infinite energy is implemented in the most boring way possible, namely just pushing a button. Both no energy as well as infinite energy sucks. 

Good idea. I've done that now, maybe it will prevent me from having to deal with personal attacks.

[2ndPersonPlural]

We're in a situation where you can either use an annoying and gimmicky method to give yourself more energy than you could ever need, or always be out of energy.  Energy economy needs a rework.  There's no use for Streamline or Flow at all, arcane energize farming is terrible but treated as mandatory, and everybody uses Zenurik.  It's a bad situation.

Buff Streamline or add more efficiency mods, buff Energy Siphon, take a second look at ability costs, and for god's sake reverse the Railjack flux energy changes.  THEN you can nerf the "big three" energy generation gimmicks.

[2ndPersonPlural]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

No.

 

If YOU dont like having good energy supply in your builds feel free to nerf YOUR builds.

 

Dont ask DE to break everyone else's toys so you can play the game the way you think it should be when there is nothing from stopping you from doing it now.

 

This post and posts like it are like asking McDonalds to stop putting cheese on everyone else's burger just because you dont like cheese on YOUR burger.

 

Never mind that you dont need to order cheese on your burger.

The problem isn't just that energy economy is bad.  The problem is that new content is being built around the bad energy economy, meaning these annoying infinite-energy tricks are slowly becoming mandatory.  For a long time I did exactly what you said, relying on energy siphon and streamline and other more balanced energy sources bc I didn't like "press this key for energy".  It was fine when they added arbitrations, open worlds with stronger enemies, railjack, high level quests, etc.  It's breaking down in steel path, because DE is now just assuming everybody has an infinite energy button on their keyboard.  I'm fine with these options existing, except that they eliminate other play styles.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

6 hours ago, 2ndPersonPlural said:

The problem isn't just that energy economy is bad.  The problem is that new content is being built around the bad energy economy, meaning these annoying infinite-energy tricks are slowly becoming mandatory.  For a long time I did exactly what you said, relying on energy siphon and streamline and other more balanced energy sources bc I didn't like "press this key for energy".  It was fine when they added arbitrations, open worlds with stronger enemies, railjack, high level quests, etc.  It's breaking down in steel path, because DE is now just assuming everybody has an infinite energy button on their keyboard.  I'm fine with these options existing, except that they eliminate other play styles.

Its not "mandatory" and even if it was you're asking DE to not only break my builds, piss all over my time investment, but by your own admission break the game.

 

Because youre taking away something "mandatory" at that point.

 

I doubt theyre going to re work energy mods + at least half the warframes + half the game just to make you happy when its gonna piss off so many people.