No! No more RNG within RNG within RNG within an unexplained surprise "mechanic"

[Zorbiter]

11 hours ago, -AncientWarrior- said:

You know I have read this about 4 times and I still dont actually know what you are try to get across..  you're unhappy about the grind or the Lichs or relics/requiems ?   You say lichs should have an opt/in/out.. they do already.. you say DE are making it increasingly difficult when infact they have made it far less difficult in the last 3 years.. DE cater to new players by making everything available to them very early on allowing them much better weapons and frames so they go into higher mission faster.. as for the videos for new players Utube has thousands of WF videos for all player levels for all missions.. sorry I know you're trying to make a point I just dont see what the point is.. 

 

And really based on the first statement I'd suggest, politely, that you shouldnt be the one trying to explain to your friend about WF .. :) 

I am specifically unhappy with the lich/relic/rng mechanic combined with the fact that grinding for other stuff takes longer.
In the first sentence, what I meant was, that DE makes it increasingly difficult for me to love the game. The difficulty of the game is not an issue.
I have 1 real life friend who likes to play video games, and I'd like to convince him to play Warframe. That's all. It's selfish, I know, but often enough DE is not helping.

[Zorbiter]

6 hours ago, Shadowbladedeathkiller said:

Forget the rng, this game is way too easy to be satisfying. When I played through the tutorial and had to defend my ship from the grineer I just stood on top of my ship with my sword out and auto deflected everything. When the timer was up I just casually walked through all of them while spamming e. When I had to fight Vor I just did the same thing, facetanking everything while hacking away at vor until the obligatory invulnerability mechanic came up so I could hide behind some boxes. This feels less like a game and more like a quicktime movie. 

Sorry, what?
rng is the issue.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Yeah, it should’ve been a red flag when even Shadow of War, the sequel to the game that introduced the Nemesis system, managed to ruin it with grind, so making just tackling 1 Lich into a 3 hour grind just makes the whole thing unappealing.

[RazerXPrime]

I told my friends to watch out for larvelings and not kill them to trigger the Lich. A few weeks later: oh hey I have this Lich thing taking over nodes. What the hell is that?

The Lich is to obfuscated to be opt in or opt out.

The relic farming is really, really bad. I understand you can buy them from other players, but if circumventing is the solution then it's also clear how poor the content is for the farm. I don't really want to spend 80 plat on these. I will see which ones I can get and buy the others from players so I don't have to spend too much. Regardless, the Kuva Liches should be focussed on the Lich and not on obtaining relics and getting mods. The Kuva siphon missions should just drop the mods directly.

[Zorbiter]

6 hours ago, (PSN)DoctorWho_90250 said:

For one, I understand not doing something/not engaging a product that makes you unhappy. I get that. At the same time, such advice should not be used as some pathetic attempt to shut down criticism. And no, DE doesn't take criticism. DE ignores it and goes on their merry little path with sycophants cheering them on while those who provide actual, good advice and criticism are drowned out or ignored.

OP is completely 100% correct in his original post. DE had chances to make things better, heck there was so much they could have down with the new player experience but they just remade the opening quest and called it a day. So lazy and pathetic.

Cheers, mate!
I gather that you too, like a beer or two, since you seem to understand my ramblings.
My complaint is that a certain aspect is ruining my love for the game. I do love the game as a whole, but obstructive game mechanics, for the sake of platinum purchase, have gone too far, in my opinion.

[Zimzala]

I love every aspect of the RNG used in WF.

I say More RNG is better, always enjoyed it, always will.

[Zorbiter]

4 hours ago, Institute-Marksman said:

You are, at no point or in any way forced to do Kuva Liches. They are never an objective or requirement of mission completion and can safely be ignored.

Provided you can shelve the bloodlust momentarily when you encounter a Kuva'd Grineer.

Well, call me stupid all you want. I made a terrible mistake out of ignorance. Now a level 5 lich is controlling half of the system, and I can not for the life of me get a relic containing the rune I need, let alone get the rune.
Yes, I am aware that trading exists. I still think it is poor game design, to introduce something as obstructive as the Kuva Lich system that relies so very heavily on rng within rng.

[Zorbiter]

12 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I love every aspect of the RNG used in WF.

I say More RNG is better, always enjoyed it, always will.

I salute and applaud you!

[Zorbiter]

7 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

If you're even a small bit the Space Ninja you ought be, you roll with that "mistake", figure out how to kill it (which you clearly know), and do so.  You then LEARN from your "mistake" and CHOOSE not to kill/create another Lich.

Pretty simple, really :/ 

You also get all your loot back when you kill it, plus a nifty weapon and potential ephemera.  

You can either make excuses or you can make progress.  Pick one.

So don't play :/   It isn't like you paid for the game and thus are forced to "keep at it" for some sunk-cost fallacy's sake.  

You literally owe them nothing, and you can uninstall whensoever you feel the need to do so.

DE takes criticisms... but there's a difference between "hearing criticisms", and letting the chaotic playerbase back-seat dev, which would be an unmitigated disaster. 

Well, I am rolling with it. I will get the lich gone at some point. My question is: is it worth making players uninstall the game due to unreasonable and obstructive rng reliant game mechanics, in the pursuit of more platinum purchase?

[Zimzala]

2 minutes ago, Zorbiter said:

Well, I am rolling with it. I will get the lich gone at some point. My question is: is it worth making players uninstall the game due to unreasonable and obstructive rng reliant game mechanics, in the pursuit of more platinum purchase?

And that is totally a strawman/flawed premise, as there are more options than that.

No one is making anyone do anything, it's Entertainment, enjoy it or not, but no one is forcing anyone to do anything, it's a Video Game.

[OniDax]

I mean this with all due respect, sharing your feelings regarding Warframe: find another game that is actually fun. You can still come back to Warframe every now and then, but have another game that you actually enjoy playing. That will make it easier to put up with DE's game design, because then Warframe won't be your main game and you'll be a happier person. That's what I did. I've given up expecting DE to improve the core gameplay (especially non-parkour movement and weapon animations) and reduce their dependence on RNG grind. I've given up expecting them to care about their story and bring in someone who is an actual storyteller. So, I've found another game I really enjoy playing, and I'll come back to Warframe every now and then to play with a friend whenever they drop an update that looks interesting.

[WillD4Pill]

To be fair to OP, I also killed the Larvling w/o knowing what it was. After finishing the War Within, the game doesn't explain the mechanic to you at all, so I mercy killed it purely out of curiousity. Then all of a sudden I'm faced with something that requires a relatively lengthy grind and commitment when compared to anything else in the game. Not to mention if you're at a low level like I was, then the eventual increase in enemy level to 100 can be overwhelming. I was lucky that I found out that I could cheese the levels with Limbo. I agree that a way to opt out of the lich even after killing the Larvling would help, or at least make new players go through a quest that guides them through the process via a shortened/simplified version of Lichs. This way new players can experience Lichs without the sudden dread of extreme grind.

[Zorbiter]

Just now, Zimzala said:

And that is totally a strawman/flawed premise, as there are more options than that.

No one is making anyone do anything, it's Entertainment, enjoy it or not, but no one is forcing anyone to do anything, it's a Video Game.

Who mentioned force? A specific game mechanic was introduced. As is tradition, it was barely explained in-game. A mistake was made when "press X" showed up. Rng takes the wheel and steers the bus off the cliff. That's my experience. It is subjective.
It's not a strawman to speculate what the reasoning behind the game mechanic may have been, nor is it a false premise to assume I am the only one to have been this frustrated with the russian doll philosophy regarding rng,

[Jarriaga]

OP, Liches are not going anywhere. In fact, Corpus Liches ("Queenpins") are coming next.

DE said that they'll introduce a wildcard "universal" requiem mod, but I don't think you'll get a blissful time farming it considering that it will pretty much invalidate part of the Kuva Lich grind, which will make it hard to get. In addition, if you want other Kuva Weapons, or make them the elements you want, guess what you'll have to do?

Just focus on doing Kuvs Siphons and Floods to stockpile relics, and do Requiem radshares to increase the chances of getting the mod you want. It's a matter of time before you find yourself with 100 of each requiem relic and nothing to use them on because you already have 10 copies of each requiem mod and completed the Kuva Lich grind.

[Zimzala]

8 minutes ago, ZestyChieftain said:

To be fair to OP, I also killed the Larvling w/o knowing what it was. After finishing the War Within, the game doesn't explain the mechanic to you at all, so I mercy killed it purely out of curiousity. Then all of a sudden I'm faced with something that requires a relatively lengthy grind and commitment when compared to anything else in the game. Not to mention if you're at a low level like I was, then the eventual increase in enemy level to 100 can be overwhelming. I was lucky that I found out that I could cheese the levels with Limbo. I agree that a way to opt out of the lich even after killing the Larvling would help, or at least make new players go through a quest that guides them through the process via a shortened/simplified version of Lichs. This way new players can experience Lichs without the sudden dread of extreme grind.

I had the same thing happen.

I simply did a little research and then made sure I did not ever kill the Lich to make it more powerful and avoided the nodes it controlled.

I increased my power level until I knew I could gather the murmurs, many months after creating the Lich.

It was then pretty easy to deal with the Lich.

So, it's not hard, it's not rocket surgery, it's not the end of the world even for a new player, it just takes patience, which I know is not common in gamers.

Like everything in this game, if you just take a step back and look at what's happening, the tools are there for you to clear the content.

Making Lich hunting some terrible martyrdom is silly.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, Zorbiter said:

Who mentioned force? 

 

19 minutes ago, Zorbiter said:

Well, I am rolling with it. I will get the lich gone at some point. My question is: is it worth making players uninstall the game due to unreasonable and obstructive rng reliant game mechanics, in the pursuit of more platinum purchase?

You did.

[Zorbiter]

7 minutes ago, OniDax said:

I mean this with all due respect, sharing your feelings regarding Warframe: find another game that is actually fun. You can still come back to Warframe every now and then, but have another game that you actually enjoy playing. That will make it easier to put up with DE's game design, because then Warframe won't be your main game and you'll be a happier person. That's what I did. I've given up expecting DE to improve the gameplay and reduce their dependence on RNG grind. I've given up expecting them to care about their story and bring in someone who is an actual storyteller. So, I've found another game I really enjoy playing, and I'll come back to Warframe every now and then to play with a friend whenever they drop an update that looks interesting.

I agree with you.
It is not my main game. I really love it as a whole. I just get frustrated when someone pours a ton of salt in my favourite dish. And thus I don't feel I can recommend the dish to a friend.

[Zorbiter]

4 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

 

You did.

No.

[Zimzala]

Just now, Zorbiter said:

No.

So what does this phrase mean then?

25 minutes ago, Zorbiter said:

My question is: is it worth making players uninstall the game due to unreasonable and obstructive rng reliant game mechanics, in the pursuit of more platinum purchase?

Your prose implies that a player is made to/forced to uninstall.

What does this mean other than 'a player is forced to uninstall due to these mechanics'?

It's what you said...

[Zorbiter]

7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

OP, Liches are not going anywhere. In fact, Corpus Liches ("Queenpins") are coming next.

DE said that they'll introduce a wildcard "universal" requiem mod, but I don't think you'll get a blissful time farming it considering that it will pretty much invalidate part of the Kuva Lich grind, which will make it hard to get. In addition, if you want other Kuva Weapons, or make them the elements you want, guess what you'll have to do?

Just focus on doing Kuvs Siphons and Floods to stockpile relics, and do Requiem radshares to increase the chances of getting the mod you want. It's a matter of time before you find yourself with 100 of each requiem relic and nothing to use them on because you already have 10 copies of each requiem mod and completed the Kuva Lich grind.

I am wiser now, and as long as I get the choice to just not poke the bear, Ill be okay with that. It just needs to be explained in big capital letters in-game, that it has severe ramifications if you whack that rng-fueled abomination on the nose.

[MarsInAres]

I killed my first lich in one day. I did my second lich the next. And my third, with an ephemera. It is far less tedious than some quests and grinds. I'm guessing you never tried to grind for non-primed Equinox? Have fun. Either grind and work for it, or don't get it. That's all.

[Zorbiter]

5 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

So what does this phrase mean then?

Your prose implies that a player is made to/forced to uninstall.

What does this mean other than 'a player is forced to uninstall due to these mechanics'?

It's what you said...

It means what I said. I don't know why you interpret it as "force", except yes you can make circumstance sufficiently unbearable, essentially forcing a person to avoid said circumstance.
I am just assuming that I am of the more forgiving and patient players, who have found themselves in a situation similar to mine, since I haven't abandoned the game all together.

[WillD4Pill]

10 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I had the same thing happen.

I simply did a little research and then made sure I did not ever kill the Lich to make it more powerful and avoided the nodes it controlled.

I increased my power level until I knew I could gather the murmurs, many months after creating the Lich.

It was then pretty easy to deal with the Lich.

So, it's not hard, it's not rocket surgery, it's not the end of the world even for a new player, it just takes patience, which I know is not common in gamers.

Like everything in this game, if you just take a step back and look at what's happening, the tools are there for you to clear the content.

Making Lich hunting some terrible martyrdom is silly.

I agree that OP is overblowing the issue, but I wouldn't go as far to call complaints about Lichs "martyrdom". I don't even think that's the correct contextual use of the word lol. And I will always have this complaint with Warframe: having to resort to an outside website to explain core game mechanics is poor game design and always will be. This is a problem that Warframe has always had, and is something that my friends who have tried the game will always cite as a reason they didn't stick with it.

Fun fact: The codex tab for missions doesn't have an entry for disruption.

[Zimzala]

Just now, Zorbiter said:

It means what I said. I don't know why you interpret it as "force", except yes you can make circumstance sufficiently unbearable, essentially forcing a person to avoid said circumstance.
I am just assuming that I am of the more forgiving and patient players, who have found themselves in a situation similar to mine, since I haven't abandoned the game all together.

I think you are Assuming a Ton more than that.

How does "make the player" not equal "force"? Words matter.

You are trying to inflate the cracking of one's first Lich into some level of event that it causes mental distress in a large enough portion of the payer base to make them un-install the game and impact DEs bottom line, all because YOU don't like a game mechanic.

[Zimzala]

3 minutes ago, ZestyChieftain said:

I agree that OP is overblowing the issue, but I wouldn't go as far to call complaints about Lichs "martyrdom". I don't even think that's the correct contextual use of the word lol. And I will always have this complaint with Warframe: having to resort to an outside website to explain core game mechanics is poor game design and always will be. This is a problem that Warframe has always had, and is something that my friends who have tried the game will always cite as a reason they didn't stick with it.

Fun fact: The codex tab for missions doesn't have an entry for disruption.

In this case, I do think the OP is trying to pull the martyr card. The OP is not the first to lose it over the Liches, but the same can be said about just about any mechanic in any game, there will be those that do not like it. The OP implies it's something to un-install over, which is on the martyrdom end of things IMO.

IMO, you are not much of an avid gamer if you don't know you will have to go to outside resources to get the skinny on what happens and how things work in a GaaS game, they all have extensive wikis.

I realize some gamers want to die on the hill of 'no outside data', but IME, that is simply refusing to accept reality.