No! No more RNG within RNG within RNG within an unexplained surprise "mechanic"

[vanaukas]

Just now, Zorbiter said:

I'm out.
I just found out that the runes I thought were correct, were just... there. Placeholders. The lich system needs a serious rework, even if I am a bit slow. I just can't deal with bullS#&$ of that magnitude.
Many thanks to those who offered help!
See you in a couple of years.
 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Kuva_Lich

If the tutorial in game wasn't clear, maybe an in depth one would help you. There is no placeholders in the system, you need to find the correct requiem order, diferent combinations of the requiems you "unveiled" killing thralls.

"But Vanaukas, how I'm supossed to know this?!"

Well, you have a literal log of what requiem mods have you tried on the Lich. If they are white is the correct position, if they are red with a slash on top of them, that requiem doesn't belong to that position. You can even find those mods with luck without grinding thralls, but of you already did that, killing thralls and discovering the 3 mods, then you are almost done.

[SneakyErvin]

The Lich system is really only grindy on your very first lich, after that you likely have enough mods and relics to just keep going without much fuzz, I know I did. I used the lich system as a means to also get a stockpile of void traces, which led to radiant relics for prime parts. Nothing was really lost in the process when it came to efficiency, since in the process of grinding requiem mods and traces you also get a good chunk of kuva passively.

You just need to look at the system and see what else it can offer you while you grind for the system specifically. All in all, in the longrun, it is designed pretty well for those that want to unlock all weapons and max them, which I think was the intent, since you give up little else while grinding out those weapons.

[cha0sWyrM]

On 2021-04-13 at 10:01 PM, Zorbiter said:

The Kuva Lich mechanic needs to be an opt in/out.

it already is. you need to take 3 specific actions in order to get a lich. i dont know about you...but where i come from...having to do a very specific series of actions in order to start something is considered opting in.

 

[(PSN)Jason_V_Jade]

I never liked the lich system and the kuva weapons means nothing to me, I thankfully did some readings of early and later threads about the lich and didn't like what I seen.

I have come across new players who quit due to the lich system because they created one not knowing the frustration it would bring them.

To be honest lich should be end game content not something a new player should be dealing with  at all.

Maybe a mr 20+ and or locked behind the steel path to make it true end game content

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Jason_V_Jade:

To be honest lich should be end game content not something a new player should be dealing with  at all.

Maybe a mr 20+ and or locked behind the steel path to make it true end game content

I mean, that's what long-time players told DE right from the start. Everybody was aware that this system would become problematic for some players when introduced too early. But people don't spend money/plat on the lich starter pack, or liches or the requiem mods from other players if they can't have a lich until a good bit later - or at least less do.

DE caters to new players. Everybody has to get access to everything as early as possible so they can spend currencies on it. Liches: MR8. Helminth, announced as MR15, changed to MR8 which you also can see cause a few issues here and there for newer people (because somewhat experienced people below that complained instead of ranking up - good job guys). Free roam: all three of them are on the first quarter of the starchart. The only stuff you unlock late are grind modes: SP: grind SE. Arbis: grind VE. ESO: grind XP.

As a result of that you have this wishy-washy difficulty for long-term players that is only prolonged by being grindy for non-essential/collection stuff everywhere like the Deimos vault arcana or Grandmother captura scenes for example; because it has to be clearable for newer players who get access to it early too. That's the content for long-term players to be cleared/grinded when a new update comes out.

Just to be clear, I'm not blaming new players or talking about "muh exclusivity". It's just an observation of how and what kind of content dropped over the years.

I'm maybe oversimplifying it, but that's somewhat how it looks to me. Each update it goes somewhat like this: faceroll through it and then look up which collectable will take forever to grind while smashing my face against an rng wall without anything else challenged besides my patience and luck until I never want to play the content again once I'm done.

[(PSN)Jason_V_Jade]

Yet they blocked off the steel path from new players, made it slow to gain new master ranks, ect. But lich is where they draw the line?

They sound more like hypocrites to me.

But what do I know? I am just a lowly player, lol

[Hypernaut1]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Jason_V_Jade said:

I never liked the lich system and the kuva weapons means nothing to me, I thankfully did some readings of early and later threads about the lich and didn't like what I seen.

I have come across new players who quit due to the lich system because they created one not knowing the frustration it would bring them.

To be honest lich should be end game content not something a new player should be dealing with  at all.

Maybe a mr 20+ and or locked behind the steel path to make it true end game content

I always wonder about claims like these. Ive been playing for years and dont think ive ever encountered players in game that announced they're leaving WF for one reason or the other. Yet, on the forums, posters always seem to have tons of first hand account of why other players leave warframe. Maybe i need to hang out in region chat more or something. WF players seem so much quieter compared to other MMOs, and online shooters. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Jason_V_Jade said:

I never liked the lich system and the kuva weapons means nothing to me, I thankfully did some readings of early and later threads about the lich and didn't like what I seen.

I have come across new players who quit due to the lich system because they created one not knowing the frustration it would bring them.

To be honest lich should be end game content not something a new player should be dealing with  at all.

Maybe a mr 20+ and or locked behind the steel path to make it true end game content

Perhaps you missed what happened when the Helminth was proposed to be locked behind a higher MR requirement? DE WOULD DO these things but too many casuals cry about being excluded.and regardless of if you enjoy it, there would be others that would cry, there always is.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Deeceem said:

Just to be clear, I'm not blaming new players or talking about "muh exclusivity". It's just an observation of how and what kind of content dropped over the years.

I am, it's 100% the reason why everything is catered to them and no challenge is allowed.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor einer Stunde schrieb -CdG-Zilchy:

I am, it's 100% the reason why everything is catered to them and no challenge is allowed.

I usually don't check who's complaining about difficulty or not getting access after a week of account existence. All I know is that in the case of the Helminth MR requirement being lowered there were at least some people not new who simply didn't rank past 15 who complained.

Ultimately it's DE. Probably a financial decision too. Even if I wanted I could only spend fat stacks on cosmetics at this point. New and mid-game players who are invested have more avenues to spend money and plat on.

Either way, I don't blame an entire group of people just because they are new. Single individuals who are new and whine constantly: sure thing!

[vanaukas]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Jason_V_Jade said:

made it slow to gain new master ranks, ect.

Care to explain wtf are you talking about with this?

[Tesseract7777]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Deeceem said:

there were at least some people not new who simply didn't rank past 15 who complained.

It's impossible to say how much that was or wasn't a factor in their decision, but yes there were a fair number of lower MR's who complained on the forums because they had stopped ranking up a long time ago and just plain didn't want to. IIRC, a decent amount of them did say they were around MR8. But, like I said, who knows how much that factored into the decision. I don't know what stats they looked at, or social media buzz they analyzed, or what the final reason actually was. 

[Teljaxx]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I always wonder about claims like these. Ive been playing for years and dont think ive ever encountered players in game that announced they're leaving WF for one reason or the other. Yet, on the forums, posters always seem to have tons of first hand account of why other players leave warframe. Maybe i need to hang out in region chat more or something. WF players seem so much quieter compared to other MMOs, and online shooters. 

I ragequit Warframe for several months because of how much my first Lich was pissing me off. And I very nearly didn't come back at all.

The entire system is a perfect self contained example of the main problem with this game. There is actually a decent, but small, bit of fun in it, its just buried under an obscene amount of horribly designed grinding as a lazy way to extend playtime.

The actual final fight against the Lich, when they're fully leveled up and you have their Requiem all figured out and ready to go, can be extremely fun. (Assuming you don't just cheese it with an invincible Frame or something. But that's a problem for another topic.) But the entire process of actually getting to that point is horrible. And not only that, its actually best to do most of it before the Lich even exists, which goes against the entire concept of the system.

They don't make a very good long term nemesis that you have to slowly work towards defeating, because you'll probably end up doing most of the defeating before they even exist. If you don't get at least a single full set of Requiem mods ready to go before creating your first Lich, it will just lead to even more frustration while the Lich slows the whole grind down even more by stealing your stuff, and constantly harassing you in missions. It can easily take weeks to finally get everything you need like that. But if you do start with a full set of mods, you can easily finish a Lich off in a few hours. Maybe even a few minutes, with enough luck.

95% of the whole encounter with a Lich just comes down to luck. Its rolling dice to get more dice to roll, until the game finally decides to flip the "you can win now" switch. Then that last 5% is potentially one of the best boss fights in the entire game. But its just not worth the frustration it takes to get to that point. Especially with how many times DE obviously expects us to do it to get all their loot.

I just hope that the "Queenpins" end up being better. But I don't expect they will be. They'll probably just be yet another part of this game that I try once and never go back to. So I'll have waited years for DE to release a couple hours of new content. Totally worth it...

[Tesseract7777]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I always wonder about claims like these. Ive been playing for years and dont think ive ever encountered players in game that announced they're leaving WF for one reason or the other. Yet, on the forums, posters always seem to have tons of first hand account of why other players leave warframe. Maybe i need to hang out in region chat more or something. WF players seem so much quieter compared to other MMOs, and online shooters. 

I find the people who claim they are leaving are the ones who are more likely to just be venting and keep playing anyways. 

The ones who actually quit are the quiet ones, they just go. 

In customer service, which I have worked many years in my life, this is a normal phenomenon. Most of the people who actually have a problem and decide not to buy/get services from somewhere, don't say anything, they just quietly stop coming back. Because they have already given up; they are already done with that business/service, and they are moving on -- they don't see a chance of salvaging the relationship and don't see any point in yelling as they walk out the door, they know they are already done, so what's the point? 

Whereas, those who say "I am never coming back!", they want something, even if it isn't a refund, or a discount, but just for their concerns to be validated, or for a sympathetic ear to say "I am sorry about that", or "we will try to be better in the future", or literally just to listen while they vent. 

It's the quiet ones you gotta worry about... they are the ones who will just stop coming back, and you will never know why. 

[Hypernaut1]

9 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

I ragequit Warframe for several months because of how much my first Lich was pissing me off. And I very nearly didn't come back at all.

The entire system is a perfect self contained example of the main problem with this game. There is actually a decent, but small, bit of fun in it, its just buried under an obscene amount of horribly designed grinding as a lazy way to extend playtime.

The actual final fight against the Lich, when they're fully leveled up and you have their Requiem all figured out and ready to go, can be extremely fun. (Assuming you don't just cheese it with an invincible Frame or something. But that's a problem for another topic.) But the entire process of actually getting to that point is horrible. And not only that, its actually best to do most of it before the Lich even exists, which goes against the entire concept of the system.

They don't make a very good long term nemesis that you have to slowly work towards defeating, because you'll probably end up doing most of the defeating before they even exist. If you don't get at least a single full set of Requiem mods ready to go before creating your first Lich, it will just lead to even more frustration while the Lich slows the whole grind down even more by stealing your stuff, and constantly harassing you in missions. It can easily take weeks to finally get everything you need like that. But if you do start with a full set of mods, you can easily finish a Lich off in a few hours. Maybe even a few minutes, with enough luck.

95% of the whole encounter with a Lich just comes down to luck. Its rolling dice to get more dice to roll, until the game finally decides to flip the "you can win now" switch. Then that last 5% is potentially one of the best boss fights in the entire game. But its just not worth the frustration it takes to get to that point. Especially with how many times DE obviously expects us to do it to get all their loot.

I just hope that the "Queenpins" end up being better. But I don't expect they will be. They'll probably just be yet another part of this game that I try once and never go back to. So I'll have waited years for DE to release a couple hours of new content. Totally worth it...

meh. They're just something to do to me. I had fun doing the higher level missions (even before steel path) with special enemies and a random mini-boss. Sure there were layers of RNG, yet i still never took more than a few days to casually kill a Litch. I could kill one in one day if i was determined. The RNG was never really that bad to me, despite all the complaints about "layers of RNG!!!"

It really sounds like you frustrate yourself more than anything. To this day i still dont understand (although i suspect its just youtuber parroting) the hate and vitriol about liches. It gave you something to grind in game about grinding. 

[Tesseract7777]

4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

It really sounds like you frustrate yourself more than anything. To this day i still dont understand (although i suspect its just youtuber parroting) the hate and vitriol about liches. It gave you something to grind in game about grinding. 

I've tried to put myself in the shoes of a newer player, and I can kind of see the frustration, although I think the amount of players it is actually causing to quit is pretty overblown. 

You can't accidentally create a Lich until you've completed TWW, so I'm skeptical there are that many people accidentally creating them, and even less actually full blown quitting over it. However, I wouldn't be against more safeguards to help educate players on the consequences of what they are creating before they do it, as long as it doesn't cannibalize too much development time. 

[(PSN)Jason_V_Jade]

40 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Care to explain wtf are you talking about with this?

You play this as well so you know there is a wait time between ranking up, unlike normal games there are no wait time to lvl up and each ranking up requires passing a test, ect.

Before you counter with "that isn't hard" or something like that, I know that, but they had to put in some speed bumps to slow down player progression, that's all I am saying.

[vanaukas]

35 minutes ago, (PSN)Jason_V_Jade said:

You play this as well so you know there is a wait time between ranking up, unlike normal games there are no wait time to lvl up and each ranking up requires passing a test, ect.

Before you counter with "that isn't hard" or something like that, I know that, but they had to put in some speed bumps to slow down player progression, that's all I am saying.

You mean the 24 hours timer to rank up? That's just the test, you can gain experience for the next level regardless if you finished the test or not. But the whole point of the MR system is keeping players playing for various sessions (days, weeks) rather than letting them rush through the content in one day, I thought this was obvious and you were pointing out something else.

[Teljaxx]

9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

meh. They're just something to do to me. I had fun doing the higher level missions (even before steel path) with special enemies and a random mini-boss. Sure there were layers of RNG, yet i still never took more than a few days to casually kill a Litch. I could kill one in one day if i was determined. The RNG was never really that bad to me, despite all the complaints about "layers of RNG!!!"

It really sounds like you frustrate yourself more than anything. To this day i still dont understand (although i suspect its just youtuber parroting) the hate and vitriol about liches. It gave you something to grind in game about grinding. 

Frustrating yourself is exactly the problem. There is a very clear right and wrong way to play this part of the game. And, the way DE clearly intended you to do it, and the way most players are likely to try it the first time, is the wrong way.

As I said, if you get all the mods you need before creating a Lich, you can defeat them very quickly. You just need to farm murmurs until you know the right combo. Or you can even try guessing, and hope you get lucky. Then just beat that last fight, and you're done.

But, if you create your Lich first, then try and farm all the mods, it can be one of the most frustrating things in the entire game. Its bad enough doing it without the Lich, since you first have to collect the right rare relics you need, then open them and hope you get the right rare mods you need. So having the Lich stealing your loot all the time on top of that, and potentially slowing the grind down even more, is just adding insult to injury. Then, you're rolling dice to get more dice to roll, while someone keeps stealing your winning dice.

If the RNG wasn't too bad for you, then you got lucky. I got super unlucky my first try, and spent two weeks of trying to get everything I needed to kill my Lich before I gave up for several months. And even once I came back, it still took three more days to get the last mod I needed. But, then my next two Liches only took a few hours each, since I already had all the mods I needed. This massively inconsistent time to kill is the problem here. Get bad luck? You're stuck with an unkillable Lich causing problems across the entire game for weeks. Get good luck? They come and go before you even learn their name. Either way, the system has failed at DE's intended goal of making a good nemesis.

It shouldn't take this much luck for the system to even function properly, because most players are not going to have the fun experience you want them to. And its even worse when all the signs point towards doing it the most frustrating way on top of that.

 

Also, that "its just something to do" attitude of yours is pretty sad. Do you really have so little respect for how you spend your time that you don't care about the quality of your entertainment? If so, why are you here on the forums defending it? And saying its "something to grind for in a game about grinding" doesn't excuse anything. Grinding is never good game design, its just lazy padding. Especially when its the only progression system in the entire game, like in Warframe. The way that DE uses massive endless grinds to hide just how little there actually is to do in this game is incredibly disappointing. And the way people like you condone it like this is even more so.

You know why its so easy to spend thousands of hours on this game? Its not because its actually that fun. Its because you have to waste so much time wading through grind after grind to actually reach each tiny nugget of fun that you actually enjoy. Like spending weeks repetitively collecting and opening relics, just so you can fight a fun boss for a couple minutes.

[Jarriaga]

17 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

Then, you're rolling dice to get more dice to roll, while someone keeps stealing your winning dice.

Kuva Liches can't steal Requiem Relics or Requiem Mods. 

[Hypernaut1]

54 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

Also, that "its just something to do" attitude of yours is pretty sad. Do you really have so little respect for how you spend your time that you don't care about the quality of your entertainment? If so, why are you here on the forums defending it? And saying its "something to grind for in a game about grinding" doesn't excuse anything. Grinding is never good game design, its just lazy padding. Especially when its the only progression system in the entire game, like in Warframe. The way that DE uses massive endless grinds to hide just how little there actually is to do in this game is incredibly disappointing. And the way people like you condone it like this is even more so.

You know why its so easy to spend thousands of hours on this game? Its not because its actually that fun. Its because you have to waste so much time wading through grind after grind to actually reach each tiny nugget of fun that you actually enjoy. Like spending weeks repetitively collecting and opening relics, just so you can fight a fun boss for a couple minutes.

What are you even talking about? Playing games is my "something to do". Warframe at its core is a game about grinding to get more gear to do more grinding. So yeah, Liches gave me high level grinding to do. If not for grinding- WHAT IS THERE TO DO??? Im confused. If youve spent more than 500+ hrs playing Warframe, 475 of those hours have been spent grinding. Doing the same thing over and over and over, and thats not even with PvP. What kind of game do you think you're playing??? Liches were simply a reason to play through randomly selected high level missions and fighting a miniboss. I know some players built the system up to be this A.i. that chases them all over the galaxy, creating a personally crafted nemesis- but really, it was just an excuse to get us to play high level missions and earn rewards. WF is never going to be some dynamic immersive  RPG experience. Its grinding- with side activities mixed in to break up the grinding, until you get back to more grinding. 

Whats pretty sad are people that complain about playing WF. The day i feel like im wasting my time and not having fun- i will just stop playing. Why? Because the only reason to play Warframe is to get more gear to play more WF. So if I'm not enjoying the activities, whats the point in getting more gear? Im not going to grind out Railjack if im going to complain about grinding in RJ. 

The fact that its taken you 100+ hours to realise that WF is all about padding is strange. I came to that realization after my first few hours. After doing my 3rd "defense" mission without story context, i realised "this is a game about doing the same things over and over with a few quests thrown in"

54 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

 

You know why its so easy to spend thousands of hours on this game? Its not because its actually that fun. Its because you have to waste so much time wading through grind after grind to actually reach each tiny nugget of fun that you actually enjoy. Like spending weeks repetitively collecting and opening relics, just so you can fight a fun boss for a couple minutes.

Its sad that you force yourself to play a game you feel that way about. That is a PERSONAL problem. I cant understand the mentality of someone that would play a game in which they arent enjoying the majority (75%+) of the time. WHy? its called a GAME. The point is to have fun, not to collect digital items that have no relevance outside of the game. 

You know why its so easy to spend thousands of hours on this game? Because i was enjoying it. 

[morgenstern_x1]

On 2021-04-14 at 12:08 AM, -AncientWarrior- said:

but no matter what, maybe just play the bits you enjoy and leave the rest alone

This is my approach - it's entertaining enough to log in once a day, collect the freebie, maybe do a quick solo mission, maybe not, maybe participate in an in-game event or work towards an in-game goal if there's something in which I'm interested.

Then it's play other games for the rest of the day, & repeat the process the next day.

[Zimzala]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Its sad that you force yourself to play a game you feel that way about. That is a PERSONAL problem. I cant understand the mentality of someone that would play a game in which they arent enjoying the majority (75%+) of the time. WHy? its called a GAME. The point is to have fun, not to collect digital items that have no relevance outside of the game. 

You know why its so easy to spend thousands of hours on this game? Because i was enjoying it. 

Some posters here are simply determined to tell the rest of us to "Stop Having Fun!"

IME, there is no communicating with these individuals, they have decided the rest of us are 'the problem' simply by being who we are.

What saddens me is that many people who really need to take control back from WF, can't, and feel they must attack the game and it's players, rather than just moving on to something that brings them joy.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

Just cause seeing this does kind of bother me...

#1. Accidental Lich Creation

Yes this is real. Period.

The EXTREME majority of the playerbase (whether you want to hear it or not) does NOT:

- Read patch notes.

- Read/Check the official forums.

- Read/Check Reddit.

There are COUNTLESS players who clear "The War Within" kill a Kuva Thrall and then out of PURE curiosity. (You know...cause they've never seen the enemy before.) kill it with the Parazon.

Thus they are now cursed with what is a terrible affliction to their daily gameplay.

2. Requiem Relics & Mods

The system is bad. The Murmur grind is already tedious (cause it's just boring beyond boring).

So to then need to farm specific Relics, then hope RNG doesn't screw them is a bad system. Requiem Mods need to have an option of easy acquisition beyond paying other players in plat.

If the general consesus is to say: "Just buy the mod off a player for 5 plat." (Which btw is rare on Console. Not many players farm mods that sell for that cheap. Add in how tedious Requiem Relic acquisition is...)

Then no one should be against the suggestion of giving players the OPTIONAL route of buying the mods off the Market.

Remove the Requiem Relic pack and replace it with a Requiem Mod pack. Then add each Requiem Mod in for 5p each.

Problems solved.

Present day I am sitting on 10 of every Requiem Mod. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But that's because I hate the system so I farmed, traded, and etc while in an episode of madness.

As a veteran myself I'll just be blunt.l:

- Liches should be locked higher on the MR ladder. Period.

- Liches should get a short 5 or 10 minute tutorial quest.

- Requiem Mods should be directly purchaseable. Period.

[Teljaxx]

12 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

What are you even talking about? Playing games is my "something to do". Warframe at its core is a game about grinding to get more gear to do more grinding. So yeah, Liches gave me high level grinding to do. If not for grinding- WHAT IS THERE TO DO??? Im confused. If youve spent more than 500+ hrs playing Warframe, 475 of those hours have been spent grinding. Doing the same thing over and over and over, and thats not even with PvP. What kind of game do you think you're playing??? Liches were simply a reason to play through randomly selected high level missions and fighting a miniboss. I know some players built the system up to be this A.i. that chases them all over the galaxy, creating a personally crafted nemesis- but really, it was just an excuse to get us to play high level missions and earn rewards. WF is never going to be some dynamic immersive  RPG experience. Its grinding- with side activities mixed in to break up the grinding, until you get back to more grinding. 

Whats pretty sad are people that complain about playing WF. The day i feel like im wasting my time and not having fun- i will just stop playing. Why? Because the only reason to play Warframe is to get more gear to play more WF. So if I'm not enjoying the activities, whats the point in getting more gear? Im not going to grind out Railjack if im going to complain about grinding in RJ. 

The fact that its taken you 100+ hours to realise that WF is all about padding is strange. I came to that realization after my first few hours. After doing my 3rd "defense" mission without story context, i realised "this is a game about doing the same things over and over with a few quests thrown in"

Why are you okay with any of this? You do realize that games don't have to be made this way, right? You're literally saying "Warframe isn't supposed to be a good game, so all its flaws are fine."

Do you think Doom would have been better if it was super grindy? Would it be more fun if you had to play the first level 50 times before you unlocked the second one? Would it be more fun if you had to kill 200 Shotgun Guys before you unlocked the shotgun? Would it be better if you had to kill 1,000 enemies with the shotgun to level it up enough to actually be useful? You would certainly be able to play it for much longer. But why would you actually want to?

And, more importantly, would Warframe be less fun without the grinding? Sure, there would be less to do overall, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

As usual, you are operating under the false assumption that playing a game for longer is always better. Playing a single game for thousands of hours isn't a good thing. Its an addiction. And yes, I admit, I fell for that same addictive manipulation too. I wouldn't have ever come close to playing Warframe for 2,500 hours if I hadn't. After the first couple hundred hours, I wasn't playing because I wanted to anymore, I was still playing because I had convinced myself that I HAD to. And I regret it now.

I would much rather play a game for 30 hours, and enjoy every moment of it, than play a game for thousands and only enjoy part of it. Because even if I enjoyed 90% of those 2,000 hours, that still means I spent 200 hours doing something I didn't like. And I can guarantee that my fun percentage in Warframe is far less than 90%.

10 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Some posters here are simply determined to tell the rest of us to "Stop Having Fun!"

IME, there is no communicating with these individuals, they have decided the rest of us are 'the problem' simply by being who we are.

What saddens me is that many people who really need to take control back from WF, can't, and feel they must attack the game and it's players, rather than just moving on to something that brings them joy.

Again, you dismiss my argument by assuming I'm just being an @sshole for the sake of being an @sshole. No, what I am is tired of complacent, ignorant people like you indirectly ruining my favorite hobby by supporting the greedy POS corporations that make such terrible games, thus encouraging them to keep it up.

Also, I'm not saying "Stop Having Fun!", I'm saying you're settling for only having a little fun, and having to work your butt off to get to that fun, when you don't have to. There are plenty of games that offer way more fun for way less work than Warframe, so why would anyone waste their time here? Because, you know what? I agree, EVERYONE should stop playing Warframe, and go play something more worthwhile. DE doesn't deserve our patronage anymore.

But that's getting harder to do. If this was simply a problem with Warframe alone, I would have just left, like you said. I would leave you all to your blissful ignorance, and let you all waste as much time as you want on this crappy game. But this isn't just a Warframe problem, this is a growing, industry wide problem. Almost every "AAA" game out there these days uses the same BS manipulative tactics and over monetization as Warframe does. And its not because its fun. Its because there are too many people that simply don't care enough to do anything about it. These games make all the money, so why would they ever stop making them like this?

Sure, I see plenty of people that complain about how broken, unfinished, and over monetized whatever the new popular game is, but only after spending a thousand plus dollars and hours on it. And then they do it again, and again, every time there is a new release. So nothing actually changes.

Honestly, most of the "AAA" and F2P games out there deserve to go the way Anthem did. Because most of them are just as bad, just in less obvious ways. Hell, Anthem is actually less buggy than Warframe is. You know how many times I failed a mission or lost loot in Anthem thanks to a bug? Never. You know how many times that has happened in Warframe? So many times that I lost count years ago.

So, I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun. I'm actually trying to help us all have more fun. But its really hard to do that when there are so many people like you that keep ruining their own fun without even realizing it, then blame it on everyone else.