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Is Warframe Fundamentally Flawed for Endgame Content?


mega_lova_nia

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You have a game that gives you near limitless possibilities to modify your weapons and enhance their strengths to the point of absurdity. You are given frames that broke the boundaries of game balance. Other games have a cool down system that prevented the abuse of ultimate-typed abilities. Meanwhile, warframe has an energy system which is redundant because of coop synergies, not to mention how absurd some abilities are when combined together.

It's a game of power fantasies, almost to the equivalent of cheating. The only thing that's keeping us from doing so is the long grind of reaching to that point. But even so, there comes a point where grinding can be conquered with time and patience.

This game is a game where essentially everyone wins, and whenever there's a game where everyone wins, nobody is.

Which brings the question, is Warframe fundamentally flawed for endgame? Endgame is a phase in a game where you've basically gotten all you've wanted and now it's time to face ultimate hardships. But there is no ultimate hardship when the game allows you to overcome that hardship by using absurd combinations of modifications that exceeds the limit that other games usually have. This just makes every sort of endgame content redundant in just a matter of weeks. They've tried balancing things up, applying mechanics that other games used to gatekeep some powers, increasing the damage of enemies, and yet here we are, still no permanent endgame content, and the vets are still pouting no matter what like a bunch of scrooges.

If there are still hope for any sort of mechanic then DE has to take notes from other games and try to tend to this situation before the game reached its completion. But even so, this game is still young, so let's hope for the best in the future.

But if it's truly a fundamental flaw, then what's the point of whining and complaining about endgame if there is no endgame like other MMORPGS? Instead, we should just appreciate the existence of this game itself, enjoy the little things and updates the devs gave us and just have fun for once. Because the only way that to save this game is a change in fundamentals, which means changing the game's concept completely.

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4 minutes ago, mega_lova_nia said:

. This just makes every sort of endgame content redundant in just a matter of weeks.

Which specific things are you referring to? I don't recall anything being suggested as endgame content.

 

DE would have to simply make endgame content that either negates our damage or ignores it (i.e. a jumping puzzle). There are many options for endgame content. What you need to consider is the "is it actually worth it" angle. Most content is abandoned when there are no useful rewards left.

8 minutes ago, mega_lova_nia said:

But if it's truly a fundamental flaw, then what's the point of whining and complaining about endgame if there is no endgame like other MMORPGS?

I guess the solution is that people stop pretending that this game is a MMORPG. It is a looter shooter, that's about all.

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7 minutes ago, mega_lova_nia said:

This game is a game where essentially everyone wins, and whenever there's a game where everyone wins, nobody is.

Disagree, partially because "nobody" is a lot of people when you think about. Mostly, though, because there exists a catharsis (at least for me) in hopping on with some mates, just wrecking shop for a few hours, and maybe even getting a few good drops.

9 minutes ago, mega_lova_nia said:

and the vets are still pouting no matter what like a bunch of scrooges.

Only the whiny ones, I'm over here derping around and having fun.

To be fair, though, one thing I do love about Warfframe is the lack of "true endgame", because it's a thing I hated about MMORPGs I've played. I'd play what I thought was the meat of the game, only to be told that "you need X gear set to do any further content, and it has these stats". I liked having the freedom to make subpar builds and have them still work for most of the game, or builds that sound like meta builds until I post them (I'm convinced my 2/3 Umbra Mesa sounds more impressive than it is, but I don't know or care).

Warframe isn't an MMORPG, and yet people want raids and stuff in a game where, as a mate once described it, "it's not exactly co-op, it's a bunch of people playing the same mission." Which is to say, you play with people, but you don't have to work together, exactly. Raids require you to work together, and therefore, imo, don't fit into Warframe.

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I agree with the title and some oiints but definetwly disagree about the thing that is "changing warframe entirely". I honestly don't care at this point about endgame, but I know it's impossible to reach with the balance issues it has, but devs always find a way to provide fun content. Currently I'm having a blast with void storms but I know it'll be watered down in terms of procs and damage since players whine constantly about it (I'm not talking about vfx, wixh needs to be tonned down).

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And other games don't have their endgame content redundant in just a matter of weeks?

And what are the "ultimate hardships" consist of, if not things that make people in warframe community complain? Like that one youtuber that complain Vay Hek in steel path being too tanky and we have Tenno in this forums wrecking the boss easily?

As far as I see, the so called endgame with "ultimate hardships" always consist with these things

- Bullet sponge

- Invincibiity phase

- Simon says phase or team wipe

- Bring this from here to there

- Death timer

- One hit KO

- Overleveled enemies (they're being higher level than game level hard cap)

And what the point of endgame? Get endgame loot so you can do endgame for better loot to do endgame for... loot?

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1 minute ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

You realize that is generally the point of endgame in most MMOs, right?

You realize this isn't 2005 world of warcraft and some people are kinda over spending an hour looking for proper/meta roles, wiping, in warframes case, host migrations, dealing with weak players that hold the group back etc. 

I guarantee this community will end up complaining about something they asked for. It's not gonna be some super amazing game changer that just makes everyone happy. It's gonna be great for the no life static groups which will let them pool up more tradeable items to overcharge people that can't complete the raids. We've all spammed raids. 

Either way I still think it will be temporarily fun and will appease some people.

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That depends on how you look at 'endgame'. Do you mean endgame in the RPG or the action game sense? 

Endgame, as in a recursive RNG loot endgame, Warframe isn't flawed, it simply isn't interested. Warframe, as a game, isn't like Borderlands or Destiny, or even the much-compared-to Diablo, or at least nowhere near as much as some attribute it. It's a sandbox shooter as much as it is a looter shooter, with the loot being more tools in your sandbox more than simply better tools.

What Warframe would consider 'endgame', therefore, would be fundamentally different. Perhaps more difficult or more interesting combat encounters that test the limits of your mechanical skill and buildcraft in a different way, and that provide you with some of the most interesting or powerful tools, or some way to further customise your playstyle - perhaps a way to bring up earlier weapons to modern power standards, without breaking the progression to get to that standard? Does Warframe achieve this very well? I would say 'not really', and there's certainly some mechanical features that limit its potential for it, but it's not fundamentally flawed in that respect.  Warframe is not incapable of delivering an interesting endgame/late-game experience. It just doesn't.

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5 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You realize this isn't 2005 world of warcraft and some people are kinda over spending an hour looking for proper/meta roles, wiping, in warframes case, host migrations, dealing with weak players that hold the group back etc. 

wait, it's not 2005? I'm more of a 1999 EQ type person, tbh. But that doesn't make your comment valid since this feature mentioned hasn't changed in MMOs since that time.

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Warframe cannot have endgame content with the non stop power creep. DE can do it, but they don't have the guts to anger the big and vocal challenge phobia casual crowd. The only way to balance this game is to tear it all down and go back to the drawing board. But most players are not gonna happy when that happens.

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5 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

wait, it's not 2005? I'm more of a 1999 EQ type person, tbh. But that doesn't make your comment valid since this feature mentioned hasn't changed in MMOs since that time.

Yea that's the problem, they can be fun, but massive headaches, especially when people start host migrating towards the end of the raid, because they're on wifi in their 7 person household, causing 8 people to lose their loot. 

I think they'll eventually turn the 3rd orb mother into a raid, but it's gonna be a hard road make it stable.

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I don't believe in the no-win scenario.

There is no reason to come out with a conclusion, that pre-excludes any solutions. Especially in a young industry, allegedly based on creativity.

If it's fun gameplay and the pay-out is there, people will play it. And for many parts of the game, even if the gameplay isn't fun, lol.

 

What was the deal with player created cosmetics and not being able to sell those for plat? In any case I'd pump out a lot more cosmetics and skins, if I were the developers.

Aslong as there is something to grind for, you don't need new gameplay first, way I figure, you just need to have good enough items, people are interested in, to keep them playing.

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There are many possibilities to make an end-game to wf but the community will have an immediate backlash, because it's used to always winning.
The moment anything a little bit harder is introduced to the game was the moment when screams "gaem too hard pls fix" begin(nerfing arbitrations, removing self damage etc. are examples of this user "feedback"). Not to mention if something truly difficult is brought up...The problem is not the developers, it's the users who never played Syobon Action in their life.

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as soon as there will be new end-game content forums will be flooded with mr5-10 newbs who will whine that it is too hard for them to do said end-game content (eidolons says hi), but they want those supa rewards right now and right there
and then this new end game content will be hidden in the shadow of the new super duper event (scarlet spear says hi)

this is how this game works

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The problem with your question is that it starts with the ( wrong ) assumption that the Warframe player base would even be interested in such content loop.

In reality, the player base is mostly casual players that play for the chill relaxing press-4-to-win farming power fantasy and doll dress up, and aggressively lash back to DE every time something remotely challenging is added to the game.

And this is not just the player base, content creators and influencers do the same exact thing.

DE knows this very well, and for them there's just no business case to invest on content aimed for the 5% (random number here, no idea what the real number would be) when they can instead just work on a few new cosmetics, a new frame and weapon here and there, and that pleases the vast majority of the population.

Would be awesome if Warframe had aspirational content at some point, but I doubt that will ever be a thing.

If I want to be challenged, I will go play another game. And then come back to Warframe for my chill relaxing (over) powered fantasy when I'm in the mood for that. I suggest trying that, instead of trying to change Warframe into a thing that will never be.

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12 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

In reality, the player base is mostly casual players that play for the chill relaxing press-4-to-win farming power fantasy and doll dress up, and aggressively lash back to DE every time something remotely challenging is added to the game.

source?

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7 minutes ago, scott_free said:

zbC8BWp.png

That's a nice graphic. It would be better if there was some explanation as to what it was though. Maybe a title or something. Even a link with time stamp. Just something so it isn't a random graphic.

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i don't need "game Tier 99" for the game to be fun to play. i just need the game to let me play it. without telling me to Logout because i've expended all of my funtime for the Hour/Day/Week/Month/Year.

Gamemodes/Objectives that are actually interesting to DO, just at face value. some of this and some of that, without lots of waiting and what waiting there is having something to actually do rather than just stand around.
Player Movement is a greatness of the game, make use of it in Objectives. lots of Abilities and Weapons, so make use of those in Objectives. Et Cetera.

then Mission Rewards / Enemy Drops that are actually relevant to the Player. a reason to play. i don't especially need evergreen infinite grinding Rewards to play a game, but it'll help and for a lot of other people it is necessary.

 

that's what 'endgame' could be in Warframe. being able to just play, without worrying about this or that. being able to focus on the playing of the game itself.

but, challenging stuff is cool too. i'll take that.
but in this game, 'challenging' means more of Objectives that are more complex to complete, not just Enemies with longer Health Bars or Damage buffs. the game just isn't setup in a way where individual Enemies being major threats makes sense unless they are Minibosses or Bosses. so don't try and force that. if you're going to Spawn weak Enemies, well, leave them as weak. if you want more significant Enemies, then Spawn those. but more significant Enemies isn't just more Health/Damage, again. it's a different type of Enemies that is more complex, harder to hit, harder to dodge, Et Cetera. that's a more interesting Enemy, not one that just takes some extra Bullets to mow down.

3 minutes ago, krc473 said:

That's a nice graphic. It would be better if there was some explanation as to what it was though. Maybe a title or something. Even a link with time stamp. Just something so it isn't a random graphic.

ratio of Missions played globally, for that 3 Day time slice indicated by the Chart. that Chart was captured uh, in 2019 i think.

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2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

ratio of Missions played globally, for that 3 Day time slice indicated by the Chart. that Chart was captured uh, in 2019 i think.

Thanks! I figured it was something like that but couldn't really see how it would prove any point relating to what was relevant in the question.

 

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