Disable Explosive self Knock Back.

[Skyz72]

Hey !

I do love to play with my akarius as aoe secondary but only one thing is pissing me off while playing with them.

Since the safety zone while the projectiles don't explode is now removed, i experience self knock back who can result into suddent death in high lvl missions (or just annoy).

Explosive self damage as been removed. Nice thing. But why did we keep the knock back ? Its annoying and a free constraint to use explosive weapons, especially since they can not already proc slash effect so their constraint is already to be less efficient at higher levels.

As a Volt main so i'm less affected by this due to my shield that can prevent me from the knock back (only in front of me).

But for other warframes who don't have such ability that can be really annoying to play with that.

Especially that we already broke the realism of the explosive weapons since we can't take damage from them, why would we keep the annoying knock back then ?

Warframe is supposed to be a fast smooth game to play, why ruining the joy with an unnecessary knock back ?

 

Have a nice day !

Skyz72

[Artekkor]

NO.

I don't know if you've been here during Tonkor meta, but NO. I've seen it before and i know what will happen. People will take tonkor / ogris / whatever, walk up to enemy forces point flank, put the barrel into their mouths and pull the trigger. That's exactly what happened when Tonkor was initially released as the only explosive with no self-damage. So DE had to nerf the thing multiple times.

There needs to be a drawback to AoE weapons, or they keep becoming meta for all the obvious reasons and DE have to keep nerfing them. Before knockback we had self-damage, so players kept oneshoting themselves when their teammate would decide to walk past them for a microsecond. So nobody used explosives, because why would you want to kill yourself 3 times a mission. And warframe players are not exactly known for good trigger discipline.

So DE removed self damage and replaced it with knockback which was a perfectly reasonable drawback, combined with humbled ammo capacity.

Now, we have primed sure footed of course. But at least an argument could be made that you have to pay big to get it (including upgrading the mod and formaing the warframe to fit it in).

Knockback MUST stay. The alternatives are worse and i know it by experience.
Now, to be fair, some weapons shouldn't have a knock back to them to begin with, but that's a different topic entirely.

[Skyz72]

The Knock back dont do much to the explosive weapons actually, you just need to use them a step further but it's the same damage same efficiency.

Having it or removing it just make the explosive weapons not a melee alternative.

So the actual knock back purpose is just to prevent people to rush enemies and fire everywhere without any cons, so that make the explosive a little less efficient to clean maps ?

[Tiltskillet]

37 minutes ago, Skyz72 said:

Especially that we already broke the realism of the explosive weapons since we can't take damage from them, why would we keep the annoying knock back then ?

DE -replaced- self-damage with self-stagger and fall off damage penalties.

The issue is that AoE weapons, generally speaking, are really useful compared to single target weapons.  DE apparently decided they couldn't balance that out purely with stat differences, so they've used these other "AoE: be careful or be punished" systems.

  But the current system is a mess anyway, where we're, in effect,  punished for not using frames with status immunity, or not far along enough to have Primed Sure Footed, or not using the the other AoE options like melee and abilities.   So single target weapons are no better off than they were.  And really, they're worse, because enemies are relatively weaker than before the AoE rework, so much easier to clear out with those weapons.  Meanwhile, DE also introduced Steel Path, featuring even higher mob density, which exacerbates the near futility of single target weapons.

 

[Skyz72]

il y a 3 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

DE -replaced- self-damage with self-stagger and fall off damage penalties.

The issue is that AoE weapons, generally speaking, are really useful compared to single target weapons.  DE apparently decided they couldn't balance that out purely with stat differences, so they've used these other "AoE: be careful or be punished" systems.

  But the current system is a mess anyway, where we're, in effect,  punished for not using frames with status immunity, or not far along enough to have Primed Sure Footed, or not using the the other AoE options like melee and abilities.   So single target weapons are no better off than they were.  And really, they're worse, because enemies are relatively weaker than before the AoE rework, so much easier to clear out with those weapons.  Meanwhile, DE also introduced Steel Path, featuring even higher mob density, which exacerbates the near futility of single target weapons.

 

Explosives weapons are kinda S#&$ actually in steel path (except for corpus and infected who don't have a lot of armor) you need a very very good explosive weapon to make damage there. (And fire eximus make explosive do really reduced damage.)

[Tiltskillet]

16 minutes ago, Skyz72 said:

Explosives weapons are kinda S#&$ actually in steel path (except for corpus and infected who don't have a lot of armor) you need a very very good explosive weapon to make damage there. (And fire eximus make explosive do really reduced damage.)

Just like other weapon classes, bad explosive weapons do exist, yes; and Grineer armor has a disproportionate effect on itemization choices and gameplay.

[Skyz72]

il y a 8 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

Just like other weapon classes, bad explosive weapons do exist, yes; and Grineer armor has a disproportionate effect on itemization choices and gameplay.

I'm not taling about bad explosive weapons why are you saying that ?

[Skyz72]

à l’instant, Skyz72 a dit :

I'm not taling about bad explosive weapons why are you saying that ?

by my last message i was meaning "you need a maxed weapon with very good riven" but not talking about the weapon itself

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, Skyz72 said:

Explosive self damage as been removed. Nice thing. But why did we keep the knock back ? Its annoying and a free constraint to use explosive weapons, especially since they can not already proc slash effect so their constraint is already to be less efficient at higher levels.

DE unfortunately has a "monkey's paw" mentality when it comes to implementing certain changes that players really want, but that they don't. In the case of self-damage, players had been asking for it to be removed for years, so DE finally obliged... but instead they gave us self-stagger to make up for it, despite the fact that it has many of the same problems (minus the instant self-kills that a handful of forumgoers to this day still try to justify).

Personally, I'm of the opinion that self-stagger functions neither as a balancing mechanism nor as truly beneficial gameplay: people talk about the power of AoE weapons, but the reality is that most AoE weapons are mediocre or outright bad relative to alternatives, and the AoE weapons that are strong now are so because their stats are ridiculous, as is still the case with the Kuva Bramma. As for gameplay, the problem with self-harm in both cases is that much of Warframe still takes place in small environments, there are plenty of enemies that leap at us, sometimes from behind, and our parkour takes us so fast around the scenery that it generally makes no sense to punish us in that manner for being too close. Thus, I believe removing self-stagger would not only benefit our gameplay, but would also not meaningfully affect the balance of our weapons. The AoE weapons that are too strong would still be too strong and in need of a nerf, whereas the rest would remain fine.

For those who believe otherwise, my recommendation would be the following: equip Prime Sure Footed, and see if it makes certain weapons overpowered when they wouldn't be otherwise. I have the mod on at all times on most of the frames I play, because I hate hard CC against the player with a passion, and find my play to be much smoother and more enjoyable when I'm not being staggered or knocked down, usually by spammy effects on enemies. It's certainly made explosive weapons less fiddly to use, but other than that, it hasn't affected my build decisions, and from the looks of it there doesn't seem to have been a surge in people using the old Ogris or the Tonkor or the like due to it. Thus, not only is self-stagger pointless, I also suspect there's no real evidence behind the claims often cited to defend it.

[Skyz72]

il y a 45 minutes, Teridax68 a dit :

DE unfortunately has a "monkey's paw" mentality when it comes to implementing certain changes that players really want, but that they don't. In the case of self-damage, players had been asking for it to be removed for years, so DE finally obliged... but instead they gave us self-stagger to make up for it, despite the fact that it has many of the same problems (minus the instant self-kills that a handful of forumgoers to this day still try to justify).

Personally, I'm of the opinion that self-stagger functions neither as a balancing mechanism nor as truly beneficial gameplay: people talk about the power of AoE weapons, but the reality is that most AoE weapons are mediocre or outright bad relative to alternatives, and the AoE weapons that are strong now are so because their stats are ridiculous, as is still the case with the Kuva Bramma. As for gameplay, the problem with self-harm in both cases is that much of Warframe still takes place in small environments, there are plenty of enemies that leap at us, sometimes from behind, and our parkour takes us so fast around the scenery that it generally makes no sense to punish us in that manner for being too close. Thus, I believe removing self-stagger would not only benefit our gameplay, but would also not meaningfully affect the balance of our weapons. The AoE weapons that are too strong would still be too strong and in need of a nerf, whereas the rest would remain fine.

For those who believe otherwise, my recommendation would be the following: equip Prime Sure Footed, and see if it makes certain weapons overpowered when they wouldn't be otherwise. I have the mod on at all times on most of the frames I play, because I hate hard CC against the player with a passion, and find my play to be much smoother and more enjoyable when I'm not being staggered or knocked down, usually by spammy effects on enemies. It's certainly made explosive weapons less fiddly to use, but other than that, it hasn't affected my build decisions, and from the looks of it there doesn't seem to have been a surge in people using the old Ogris or the Tonkor or the like due to it. Thus, not only is self-stagger pointless, I also suspect there's no real evidence behind the claims often cited to defend it.

We do have the exact same opinion, happy to see i'm not alone with that in mind.

[Andele3025]

13 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

DE -replaced- self-damage with self-stagger and fall off damage penalties.

The issue is that AoE weapons, generally speaking, are really useful compared to single target weapons.  DE apparently decided they couldn't balance that out purely with stat differences, so they've used these other "AoE: be careful or be punished" systems.

  But the current system is a mess anyway, where we're, in effect,  punished for not using frames with status immunity, or not far along enough to have Primed Sure Footed,

 

I mean, you can argue the same before for frames that didnt just have a soak ability. Only those are less common and mods like rage were intentionally made to not work with self damage.

[Tiltskillet]

16 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

I mean, you can argue the same before for frames that didnt just have a soak ability. Only those are less common and mods like rage were intentionally made to not work with self damage.

Good point.  It's probably not a coincidence self damage went away at the same time shield gating came in.

[Antris]

"I miss Zakti from before self stagger."

That's what came to mind when trying out Zakti Prime after finally making it recently.

They don't even have to remove self stagger per se, but just make it have a better scalability? to be more bearable. Also need to made client side as well... because its currently affected by ping.........

Something like making it not easily throw the player back, increase the speed of the animation so it doesn't feel slow mechanical and unnatural. Smaller explosions like the zakti should maybe make the frame defend with arms but not interrupt movement or do so it only deviates our path without entering into lengthy awkward animations.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

Some frames like Rhino and Nezha can't be staggered when their defensive abilities are active. Try that if it really bugs you.

Based on stats Idk how that thing is viable high level even with a riven anyway.

[(XBOX)Erkwounder]

What if you guys trying something which prevents stagger effect? There is many tenno abilities, sure feed mod and such thing which prevents that stagger effect.

I feel it is quite dump to complain how stagger affect to our tenno if it doesnt have protection against that...

 

Just saying my opinion...

[Uhkretor]

21 minutes ago, (XBOX)Erkwounder said:

sure feed mod

... interesting mod...

[(XBOX)Erkwounder]

50 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... interesting mod...

Sure footed is rigth name what i meaning on firsthand... Hope so you are happy now... 😋

[Skyz72]

Il y a 10 heures, (XBOX)Erkwounder a dit :

What if you guys trying something which prevents stagger effect? There is many tenno abilities, sure feed mod and such thing which prevents that stagger effect.

I feel it is quite dump to complain how stagger affect to our tenno if it doesnt have protection against that...

 

Just saying my opinion...

So for you its ok to cancel a mod slot who can be very usefull to cancel a unnecessary borring effect ?

I find this unpleasant.

[Uhkretor]

12 hours ago, (XBOX)Erkwounder said:

Sure footed is rigth name what i meaning on firsthand... Hope so you are happy now... 😋

... I am, actually...

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

3 hours ago, Skyz72 said:

So for you its ok to cancel a mod slot who can be very usefull to cancel a unnecessary borring effect ?

I find this unpleasant.

In a game where compromise is the rule in builds, yes.  You want AOE - you suffer the stagger if you're too close, or use a slot or ability to mitigate it.

[Skyz72]

il y a 27 minutes, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg a dit :

In a game where compromise is the rule in builds, yes.  You want AOE - you suffer the stagger if you're too close, or use a slot or ability to mitigate it.

But actually there is a lot of abilities that can make the AOE job for you like mag for example, and you want amunition you take amunition stuff you want cold damage ? take cold damage. you need tankiness ? take tank mods. need ability power ? duration ? that's all stuff that you already have more or less and who aren't making your warframe gameplay less enjoyable and fluid in the gameplay. That's not the same thing.

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

On 2021-04-15 at 8:31 AM, Skyz72 said:

Disable Explosive self Knock Back

Rhino's Iron Skin sez, "Hi"

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

On 2021-04-15 at 8:46 AM, Artekkor said:

NO.

I don't know if you've been here during Tonkor meta, but NO. I've seen it before and i know what will happen. People will take tonkor / ogris / whatever, walk up to enemy forces point flank, put the barrel into their mouths and pull the trigger.

Hows than any different from what people do already with Melee weapons and their massive range and multi-hits?

Melee ATM has the the same effectiveness as AoE, but absolutely no self-damage or self-knockback penalty, and does even more damage than most projectiles to boot.

[Skyz72]

il y a une heure, (PSN)haphazardlynamed a dit :

Hows than any different from what people do already with Melee weapons and their massive range and multi-hits?

Melee ATM has the the same effectiveness as AoE, but absolutely no self-damage or self-knockback penalty, and does even more damage than most projectiles to boot.

Totally true, even more true at higher levels.

[Skyz72]

Il y a 1 heure, UUDDLRLRBA_START a dit :

Rhino's Iron Skin sez, "Hi"

ahah yes, rhino STRONK. A really powerfull warframe for sure !