Time to Get Rid of Reactant

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

On 2021-04-15 at 1:37 PM, THE_TELINIUS said:

i think removing reactant from void storms is a good idea, but removing it from normal void fissure missions would just remove the challenge, it would just be a normal mission with a prime part as a reward

Agree. The reactant issue in Void Storms is that the enemies near the hosting player (see your Player List on your HUD) are the ones spawning reactant. Client players don't seem to get any (← insert Warframe hentai joke here).

That's one guess of mine why the Corpus Space missions with its forced ground mission component are better, since all the players are on the same map as the host (hence, reactant). The Grineer missions allow players to wander, and so the enemies not on the map with the hosting player don't drop reactant (or even get corrupted at all).

[Teridax68]

On 2021-04-20 at 1:09 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You had one buggy mission so it's "logical" to delete it from one anecdotal experience? That's not logical at all. It is logical for people to act in haste after having a frustrating time in a game. That's extremely common, kinda like when the drone gets stuck on a cetus bounty, but you don't rush to the forums and scream "delete it! Uhh... because it's logical!" Lol

That person's anecdotal experience is corroborated by many more players. Grineer Railjack Void Storms are known to take a long time for enemies to start getting corrupted and giving reactant on death, leading to a waiting game where players enter Grineer Crewships, wait for enemies to get corrupted, then get the 10 reactant and complete the mission... assuming enemies get corrupted in time, which does not always happen. Even if this were addressed (and I hope it does), it would still leave relic missions in a state where reactant is wholly unnecessary as a mechanic, and liable to create problems in the future the moment a new mission is paired up with relics and not paced right. If you disagree, by all means, feel free to list your reasons why you believe reactant as a mechanic contributes positively to gameplay, instead of looking for excuses to discredit other players.

[nslay]

53 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

That person's anecdotal experience is corroborated by many more players. Grineer Railjack Void Storms are known to take a long time for enemies to start getting corrupted and giving reactant on death, leading to a waiting game where players enter Grineer Crewships, wait for enemies to get corrupted, then get the 10 reactant and complete the mission... assuming enemies get corrupted in time, which does not always happen. Even if this were addressed (and I hope it does), it would still leave relic missions in a state where reactant is wholly unnecessary as a mechanic, and liable to create problems in the future the moment a new mission is paired up with relics and not paced right. If you disagree, by all means, feel free to list your reasons why you believe reactant as a mechanic contributes positively to gameplay, instead of looking for excuses to discredit other players.

Yeah, Void Storms don't make sense for pure Skimish missions... but, at least in Corpus Proxima, it's super easy to passively collect 10 reacant without even trying. Really, any mission with a ground objective should do the trick without even trying.

That isn't to say reactant contributes positively to the game... it's more like it usually contributes absolutely nothing to the game when it works properly. And when it doesn't work properly (solo Interception, Excavation with beginners, apparently Grineer Skirmish RJ missions)... then it's downright annoying/counter-intuitive. Waiting to be boarded or boarding Crewships just for 10 reactant is dumb... as is losing in Interception intentionally to have enough time to collect 10 reactant when solo!

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That person's anecdotal experience is corroborated by many more players. Grineer Railjack Void Storms are known to take a long time for enemies to start getting corrupted and giving reactant on death, leading to a waiting game where players enter Grineer Crewships, wait for enemies to get corrupted, then get the 10 reactant and complete the mission... assuming enemies get corrupted in time, which does not always happen. Even if this were addressed (and I hope it does), it would still leave relic missions in a state where reactant is wholly unnecessary as a mechanic, and liable to create problems in the future the moment a new mission is paired up with relics and not paced right. If you disagree, by all means, feel free to list your reasons why you believe reactant as a mechanic contributes positively to gameplay, instead of looking for excuses to discredit other players.

Then it should be about void storms specifically. I'm just pointing out the real issue of some players placing no blame on themselves ever in these situations when it comes to regular fissures. They run past whole spawns, kill enemies before they corrupt then go to extraction, come to the forums and say "Hey what happened DE!?". 

 

[RazerXPrime]

Warframe is great for teaching you about people. They will always... ALWAYS find something to complain about.

[Teridax68]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Then it should be about void storms specifically. I'm just pointing out the real issue of some players placing no blame on themselves ever in these situations when it comes to regular fissures. They run past whole spawns, kill enemies before they corrupt then go to extraction, come to the forums and say "Hey what happened DE!?". 

But that's not what you're actually doing, is it? What you're actually doing is try to pin the blame for the poor implementation of a feature on players, something you do in virtually every single one of your posts. I could perhaps agree with you on the notion that some players do really blame their own mistakes on the game, but this is neither the case nor even relevant to the issue at hand.

Also, you were asked to list the gameplay benefits of reactant, and your conspicuous silence over this says everything any reader needs to know about your real opinion on the matter. Can't you unclench just a little bit from time to time and admit when there's an issue with the game? If nothing else, you'd come across as more reasonable.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But that's not what you're actually doing, is it? What you're actually doing is try to pin the blame for the poor implementation of a feature on players, something you do in virtually every single one of your posts. I could perhaps agree with you on the notion that some players do really blame their own mistakes on the game, but this is neither the case nor even relevant to the issue at hand.

Also, you were asked to list the gameplay benefits of reactant, and your conspicuous silence over this says everything any reader needs to know about your real opinion on the matter. Can't you unclench just a little bit from time to time and admit when there's an issue with the game? If nothing else, you'd come across as more reasonable.

I've already made suggestions to improve the system. I'm not gonna repeat myself. Also, it's not about if the system benefits you, it's about the mechanics of the mission, even though: 

"Upon opening the Relic, the player will also receive a buff to one of their equipped gear which gets corrupted for an amount of time based on the tier of the Void Fissure (time = 30sec × tier). The buffed gear will emit lightning bolts and gets a corrupted texture effect.

Corrupted Warframes receive a 2x multiplier to Ability Strength and Ability Range.

This affects the total value, meaning with a maxed  Intensify for 130% Ability Strength will turn into 260% while the buff is active.

Primary and secondary weapons receive unlimited ammunition and no longer need to reload.

Melee Heavy Attacks don't consume the Combo Counter."

It's called a void fissure.....the whole point of it is that there is a literal fissure....a split, crack or eruption into the regular mission and you have to take advantage of these fissures to crack relics for the rewards inside.

 

[RazerXPrime]

18 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But that's not what you're actually doing, is it? What you're actually doing is try to pin the blame for the poor implementation of a feature on players, something you do in virtually every single one of your posts. I could perhaps agree with you on the notion that some players do really blame their own mistakes on the game, but this is neither the case nor even relevant to the issue at hand.

Also, you were asked to list the gameplay benefits of reactant, and your conspicuous silence over this says everything any reader needs to know about your real opinion on the matter. Can't you unclench just a little bit from time to time and admit when there's an issue with the game? If nothing else, you'd come across as more reasonable.

With regards to the OP and seeing this in other topics as well, people just want to rush through things and get it done quicker. Anything that blocks this "flow" is cause for complaint. The 1-2 secs of invulnerability of spawns, having to pick up reactant. These are all things about a person wanting a different experience. No I'm saying that not completely right. It's about creating a single flow in a mission. You run from start to extraction and oneshot everyone in between so you can get your relic open faster.

So is it the gameplay that's not good or maybe not enjoyable? Or is the game at fault for presenting these. Or is it the expectation of the player that is at fault. I myself see a lot of people here wanting to rush content and then complan there is no content. Or attack content for "taking longer" than other content. I mean. I just cannot grasp this way of thinking. People just want stuff now. They can't wait for something. In a game a grindy as Warframe these are poor complaints. If you don't like the underlying part of the game and simply want to taylor it to become a simpleminded rush through missions then how is this actually fun?

I myself have no real opinion on the reactant stuff or the invulnerability. I am not bothered by it. Sure the mission takes like 10 seconds longer to complete. There were also people complaining about glass enemies from nightwave. I thought they were interesting because it required you to hit weak spots. But yea people just want to fire their amprex or ignis and move tot he next room. Boring.

[keikogi]

2 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

With regards to the OP and seeing this in other topics as well, people just want to rush through things and get it done quicker. Anything that blocks this "flow" is cause for complaint. The 1-2 secs of invulnerability of spawns, having to pick up reactant. These are all things about a person wanting a different experience. No I'm saying that not completely right. It's about creating a single flow in a mission. You run from start to extraction and oneshot everyone in between so you can get your relic open faster

What I've seen most people complain about is the time and frequency the game decides to corrup enemies not the invunerability window. You can find yourself waiting in front of the enemy for more than 5 s before the game decides its a good idea to corrupt them. This kill both flow and immersion because you find yourself looking at a invisible timer instead of you know playing the game.

[Teridax68]

57 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I've already made suggestions to improve the system. I'm not gonna repeat myself.

Made suggestions... where? Because you certainly haven't made any constructive suggestions on this thread so far, and I don't see how you expect people to be aware of the suggestions you make on other threads.

57 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Also, it's not about if the system benefits you, it's about the mechanics of the mission, even though: 

You seem to have forgotten that Warframe is a game, and that its mechanics are ultimately meant to contribute to the player's enjoyment. Your interpretation of fissures is also a bit weird: we are already exploiting the fissure by going into the area that has it, and confronting waves of Corrupted and Void storms (in Railjack) as we bring a relic with us. It would make just as much sense for the relic to automatically unlock at the end of the mission without reactant. If the mission is supposed to make us do something different and challenge us... isn't that what the Corrupted and Void storms are for?

1 hour ago, RazerXPrime said:

With regards to the OP and seeing this in other topics as well, people just want to rush through things and get it done quicker. Anything that blocks this "flow" is cause for complaint. The 1-2 secs of invulnerability of spawns, having to pick up reactant. These are all things about a person wanting a different experience. No I'm saying that not completely right. It's about creating a single flow in a mission. You run from start to extraction and oneshot everyone in between so you can get your relic open faster.

Flow is in fact an important aspect of video games, more so even in Warframe, a game whose movement system in particular emphasizes fluid and freeform play. Pointing out that a mechanic breaks the flow of gameplay without any equivalent benefit is therefore a valid criticism.

1 hour ago, RazerXPrime said:

So is it the gameplay that's not good or maybe not enjoyable? Or is the game at fault for presenting these. Or is it the expectation of the player that is at fault. I myself see a lot of people here wanting to rush content and then complan there is no content. Or attack content for "taking longer" than other content. I mean. I just cannot grasp this way of thinking. People just want stuff now. They can't wait for something. In a game a grindy as Warframe these are poor complaints. If you don't like the underlying part of the game and simply want to taylor it to become a simpleminded rush through missions then how is this actually fun?

I think you need to ask yourself if the things done to extend gameplay are themselves fun: lack of content is certainly not fun, but padding that content with mechanics that are themselves unenjoyable just makes for unenjoyable gameplay all around, and is therefore not a solution to content dearth. At the end of the day, no matter how much padding one adds to the game, some players are going to blaze through it and find themselves with nothing to do, and that's something everyone has to accept. One can certainly try to produce more genuinely enjoyable content, but placing arbitrary and dull obstacles between the player and their objective doesn't actually make for better gameplay, nor does it satisfy the people looking for something to enjoy. For sure, I can agree that there is a contingent of players who feel entitled to having all of the rewards in this game handed to them without effort, but I also think there is a far larger group of people who would like content that is more inherently enjoyable, rather than stuff that deliberately breaks the flow of play for padding's sake, or stretches playtime in uninteresting ways. I wouldn't lump those two groups together, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to put in an amount of playtime proportionate to the reward one is trying to obtain, through gameplay that tries to offer an enjoyable experience to the player.

[RazerXPrime]

1 hour ago, keikogi said:

What I've seen most people complain about is the time and frequency the game decides to corrup enemies not the invunerability window. You can find yourself waiting in front of the enemy for more than 5 s before the game decides its a good idea to corrupt them. This kill both flow and immersion because you find yourself looking at a invisible timer instead of you know playing the game.

This is really only an issue in Interception missions with relatively low spawn rate for single players. I tend to stay away from those mission types and take a mission that guarantees I can open the relic. Happened too often in an Interception mission that it completed before I was able to open the relic. Even if I didn't rush to 100% interception but allowed the enemy to gain as well. It's a hassle.

In normal exterminate or capture missions I've never experienced this.

[RazerXPrime]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Flow is in fact an important aspect of video games, more so even in Warframe, a game whose movement system in particular emphasizes fluid and freeform play. Pointing out that a mechanic breaks the flow of gameplay without any equivalent benefit is therefore a valid criticism.

I understand that, and that's why I mentioned it. Although for me, breaking the flow is actually fun. So there's that.

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I think you need to ask yourself if the things done to extend gameplay are themselves fun: lack of content is certainly not fun, but padding that content with mechanics that are themselves unenjoyable just makes for unenjoyable gameplay all around, and is therefore not a solution to content dearth. At the end of the day, no matter how much padding one adds to the game, some players are going to blaze through it and find themselves with nothing to do, and that's something everyone has to accept. One can certainly try to produce more genuinely enjoyable content, but placing arbitrary and dull obstacles between the player and their objective doesn't actually make for better gameplay, nor does it satisfy the people looking for something to enjoy. For sure, I can agree that there is a contingent of players who feel entitled to having all of the rewards in this game handed to them without effort, but I also think there is a far larger group of people who would like content that is more inherently enjoyable, rather than stuff that deliberately breaks the flow of play for padding's sake, or stretches playtime in uninteresting ways. I wouldn't lump those two groups together, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to put in an amount of playtime proportionate to the reward one is trying to obtain, through gameplay that tries to offer an enjoyable experience to the player.

True, but that's subjective right? I don't mind spending 15 minutes in a Void Storm mission. I don't mind doing a syndicate mission and finding the syndicate items. In fact I enjoy change of pace. But most importantly I enjoy that I can choose how to play. I enjoy the diversity in the game. If a game determines how to play then I understand and it would frustrate me too, but Warframe only forces you in a few instances and none of the complaints are about those. The complaints are always about parts of the game where people themselves choose a play style and then are bothered if it doesn't work or when other areas aren't like that.

If I had to complain about something it would be the earth timers or the deimos iso vault rotations. Those force me to play at a certain time and not when I myself choose to play. That bothers me.

But trying to make all content fit a single mold so people can rush it. That would definitely wring the enjoyment out of the game for me. So I oppose those things.

[CephalonCarnage]

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

there is a far larger group of people who would like content that is more inherently enjoyable, rather than stuff that deliberately breaks the flow of play for padding's sake, or stretches playtime in uninteresting ways

this latter group don't have problems with reactant, as they play normally, not nuking, not wiping out everything in a second with a OP weapon or abilities. These people get 10 reactant without problem

But, OK, lets think of a way to change it. How about using the Requiem Murmur approach, where 10 dedicated enemies wil spawn and you have to kill each one with a finisher to get the reactant off them. Guess what, people will still zoom through the mission to complete it in a minute and then complain that they didn't collect enough, as I see with murmer hunts all the time - I'm hunting down remaining thralls, and they're all sitting at extraction wailing "dude, get to extract".

[sitfesz]

 

7 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

But most importantly I enjoy that I can choose how to play.
But trying to make all content fit a single mold so people can rush it. That would definitely wring the enjoyment out of the game for me. So I oppose those things.

So you can choose how to play, but we can't because we have to sLoW dOwN and you oppose our solution. You can still toggle crouch anytime ingame and crawl through the map however you like even without reactants.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Made suggestions... where? Because you certainly haven't made any constructive suggestions on this thread so far, and I don't see how you expect people to be aware of the suggestions you make on other threads.

You seem to have forgotten that Warframe is a game, and that its mechanics are ultimately meant to contribute to the player's enjoyment. Your interpretation of fissures is also a bit weird: we are already exploiting the fissure by going into the area that has it, and confronting waves of Corrupted and Void storms (in Railjack) as we bring a relic with us. It would make just as much sense for the relic to automatically unlock at the end of the mission without reactant. If the mission is supposed to make us do something different and challenge us... isn't that what the Corrupted and Void storms are for?

Flow is in fact an important aspect of video games, more so even in Warframe, a game whose movement system in particular emphasizes fluid and freeform play. Pointing out that a mechanic breaks the flow of gameplay without any equivalent benefit is therefore a valid criticism.

I think you need to ask yourself if the things done to extend gameplay are themselves fun: lack of content is certainly not fun, but padding that content with mechanics that are themselves unenjoyable just makes for unenjoyable gameplay all around, and is therefore not a solution to content dearth. At the end of the day, no matter how much padding one adds to the game, some players are going to blaze through it and find themselves with nothing to do, and that's something everyone has to accept. One can certainly try to produce more genuinely enjoyable content, but placing arbitrary and dull obstacles between the player and their objective doesn't actually make for better gameplay, nor does it satisfy the people looking for something to enjoy. For sure, I can agree that there is a contingent of players who feel entitled to having all of the rewards in this game handed to them without effort, but I also think there is a far larger group of people who would like content that is more inherently enjoyable, rather than stuff that deliberately breaks the flow of play for padding's sake, or stretches playtime in uninteresting ways. I wouldn't lump those two groups together, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to put in an amount of playtime proportionate to the reward one is trying to obtain, through gameplay that tries to offer an enjoyable experience to the player.

I shouldn't have to copy and paste my first answer. You asked where my suggestions are as if it wasn't on the first page. Please learn to read. 

"Making enemies corrupt faster would be a good idea, as well as dropping a bit more reactant, but ultimately, it's up to the player to have a modicum of patience."

I've also stared at a fresh spawn, waiting for it to corrupt, and yea....maybe my pug team was all over the map and maybe corruption is based on proximity? I don't know. Enemies corrupt fine when the team is moving as one, versus one person 300m ahead of the group....Either way, groups of enemies should corrupt faster, and just like when you kill 6 corrupted enemies and 1 or 0 reactant drop, hence the proposal for having more reactant drop.

And most fissure missions (and missions in general) take anywhere from 3minutes to 25m max. That's incredibly fast nowadays when 1 to 4 hour raids were very common on other online games. I personally think warframe respects player time very well. You can get most things in 3 days to 3 weeks tops, yet some players can't even handle that.

 

[keikogi]

24 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

In normal exterminate or capture missions I've never experienced this.

Exterminate seems to have a particularly aggressive corruption algorithm,  I usually barely spot enemies and the get corrupt. De probably should export it to other missions types.

[RazerXPrime]

16 minutes ago, sitfesz said:

 

So you can choose how to play, but we can't because we have to sLoW dOwN and you oppose our solution. You can still toggle crouch anytime ingame and crawl through the map however you like even without reactants.

Yes you take 10 seconds longer to complete the mission... honestly I don't find the complaint very valid. In the end though like I said before I don't have an opinion on this particularly. So no I don't opose the solution on this.

I do have an issue with how people approach the game in terms of rushing it. Which is the underlying issue with this complaint. Because that's been shown to have an unhealthy view of the game. Like I said in my previous comment. If DE listenes to the "rushers" and dumbs down the game so you can bulletjump through every mission with an amprex then I'm out. I find that extremely boring. Warframe has so much more to offer. But people seem to be bent on mashing everything in this rushing mold. Those are also the people that complain there's no end game and that the game has nothing to offer. Yea sure, if you rush all content and min max everything to timed efficiency and are "done" with the game becaues you played 10K capture missions, then yea... but you're doing that yourself eh? So I don't like to be punished for someone's poor handling of the game. 

I understand that not everyone plays the game like I do. In the end though it prevents me from visiting the forum and start a rant about insignificant things in the game. And my approach also prevents me from ever becoming frustrated with this game.

[sitfesz]

2 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

this latter group don't have problems with reactant, as they play normally, not nuking, not wiping out everything in a second with a OP weapon or abilities. These people get 10 reactant without problem

But, OK, lets think of a way to change it. How about using the Requiem Murmur approach, where 10 dedicated enemies wil spawn and you have to kill each one with a finisher to get the reactant off them. Guess what, people will still zoom through the mission to complete it in a minute and then complain that they didn't collect enough, as I see with murmer hunts all the time - I'm hunting down remaining thralls, and they're all sitting at extraction wailing "dude, get to extract".

That's what Teridax called padding: artifically increasing mission time with timers and timed spawns.
Murmur is terrible as well, because you have no information about the spawn count, the thralls either spawn or not and you don't know. So people got sick about getting baited staying afk and waiting for thrall spawns instead of extraction and now they just extract if they can, because there are guaranteed thrall spawns in other missions.

Same padding for acolyte spawns. The mission is complete at minute 2-3 but the spawn timer is 3-7 minutes. At worst, you afk 3 times longer than you played to meet an acolyte.

Reactants just make the mission artifically longer because it requires us to cheese enemies, but sometimes even that isn't enough. Reactants are not optimized through missions and squad sizes, we are at the mercy of the game to spawn enemies and even corrupt them. It's just another timer.

[Tehtus]

34 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

 If DE listenes to the "rushers" and dumbs down the game so you can bulletjump through every mission with an amprex then I'm out. I find that extremely boring. Warframe has so much more to offer. But people seem to be bent on mashing everything in this rushing mold

Invalid arguments. I could say quite the opposite - if DE listenes to the 'slow pokes' and keep that mechanic unchanged so I have to waste my time waiting at the exit zones for AFKers, I'm out.

 

Seems you forgot the most important part of the 'fissure missions' - it's a speed run ( apart of stationary missions like def/interception etc ) - to open as much relics as possible in the shortest time. Wanna crawl across the map? Go defense or play solo. If you decide to open your squad and join other players RESPECT THEIR TIME. I'd take my own advice and play relic runs solo, as I do with every other aspect of the game, but WF is punishing me for that as I can chose 1 reward instead of 4.

[Nickalonte]

Ok so I didn't really all post on the 2nd page but to me it kinda seems like all these new players just want easier ways to make plat or just to be given handouts?? The reactant to me has never really been a problem why complain about 2 seconds? What's your hurry bro? These are prime parts, they should be harder to get than they are considering this is an easy way to make free platinum. 

If they were to make void missions easier than it would pretty much reduce the price of the prime parts you are farming which in my opinion is not a good idea because that's how some people make their Platinum.

Here is an idea. I would like for the void fissure missions to be alot more difficult let's say you have maybe 2-3 special objectives similar to Riven objective and  "elite mobs" similar to a mini boss that drop reactant maybe 2-3 per mission that would increase the void trace amount.

As for relic rewards if I spend 100 traces to make a relic radiant and the silver reward bar is 100% full I expect to a silver reward as my prize. With that being said I don't want it easier to get these so maybe increase the cost to upgrade them too 200 traces? I usually run rad relics and still get bronze rewards about 70% of the time which seems really bad to be spending all those traces on.

Anyways this is just my opinion. Devs you are doing a fine job jeep it up! Hopefully 1 of you read this and if you do send me a message letting me know it's been seen. Just that would be satisfaction for me. As for all you others stop complaining so much and get back to the grind!

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

With regards to the OP and seeing this in other topics as well, people just want to rush through things and get it done quicker. Anything that blocks this "flow" is cause for complaint. The 1-2 secs of invulnerability of spawns, having to pick up reactant. These are all things about a person wanting a different experience. No I'm saying that not completely right. It's about creating a single flow in a mission. You run from start to extraction and oneshot everyone in between so you can get your relic open faster.

You might want to stop straw-manning people if you want an actual discussion. Arguments which open with a long explanation of what the other side "really" wants despite what they say have pretty much no merit. Doubly so when you disregard what's being said in the process.

Reactant in Void Storms doesn't work, especially in Skirmish. There isn't enough ground combat to ensure sufficient Reactant drops without players sitting on their hands and gaming the system rather than playing the game. That's not a compelling experience. Reactant barely works in regular content because the system for distributing them is bad. It requires players to sit on their hands, wait for enemies to convert, wait out an animation and then kill them. This isn't the flow of a well-designed game. This is the flow of players trying to work around bugs.

I'll give you an example. Years ago when I played Space Marine, a particular objective in the Chaos Unleashed campaign was bugged. We needed to capture a point and then kill all remaining enemies from constant spawns. However, if we captured the point while no enemies were on the map (between spawns), no further enemies would spawn and the game became soft-locked. What we ended up doing was jumping out of the capture point any time there were no enemies on the map to ensure we didn't accidentally capture it and softlock ourselves. We had to time our capture with the game's spawn system in order to avoid it bugging out. Reactant has the exact same feel of working around shoddy design to avoid breaking game systems.

Reactant furthermore fundamentally undermines entire game modes. The Excavation game mode allows players to multi-task and run multiple Excavators at once. However, this completes mission stages too fast to gather enough Reactant. As a result, people have to pause the mission objective and sit on their hands waiting for RNG Void Fissures. Similarly, Interception encourages players to move rapidly and act quickly, filling their bar before the enemy can fill theirs. Except players doing too well can cause rounds to end before enough Void Fissures have spawned. As a result, players need to deliberately let the enemy take towers such that they slow their own progress. And that's just off the top of my head. Penalising players for playing the game the way its game systems were designed to be played is bad. Forcing players to deliberately fail objectives is bad. And I don't think it's intended.

I can't really piece together WHY Reactant exists. Cynically, I can argue that it's just there to slow us down, because Prime Parts are a market place more so than a game mechanic. However, it doesn't actually DO that. Players can still gather sufficient Reactant in most missions by very trivial means. It's just not any fun doing so. It's not doing a great deal to slow us down so much as it's just inconveniencing us. So what IS it there for? What's it there for in Railjack? That system already has mission objectives which can't really be speedrun to a significant degree as it is.

[Teridax68]

3 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

I understand that, and that's why I mentioned it. Although for me, breaking the flow is actually fun. So there's that.

I can find breaking the flow fun too, but in specific contexts. If there's some extra bit of gameplay that makes me want to break from my regular loop of running and gunning and do something new, that's great. If there's something that makes me want to do something other than repeat the same mission over and over when farming a reward, that's great too. By contrast, something that forces me to stand still and wait for some game trigger to happen isn't necessarily fun, nor is something that would, say, stop me in my tracks for no reason, or force me to backtrack through the mission to deal with the game's spawning algorithm. In this respect, reactant I don't think really breaks the flow of gameplay in a good way.

3 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

True, but that's subjective right? I don't mind spending 15 minutes in a Void Storm mission. I don't mind doing a syndicate mission and finding the syndicate items. In fact I enjoy change of pace. But most importantly I enjoy that I can choose how to play. I enjoy the diversity in the game. If a game determines how to play then I understand and it would frustrate me too, but Warframe only forces you in a few instances and none of the complaints are about those. The complaints are always about parts of the game where people themselves choose a play style and then are bothered if it doesn't work or when other areas aren't like that.

There is such a thing as a collective subjective. While technically the question of "How much time counts as proportionate to getting X reward?" is purely subjective, very few people would consider it proportionate to spend a month farming Mastery fodder, for example. Similarly, most people clearly do not find it appropriate to have to wait for several minutes doing nothing inside a Grineer Crewship just to wait for enemies to start getting corrupted. It is therefore still possible to form a consensus based on personal experience, and clearly there appears to be a consensus that reactant does not really serve any beneficial purpose to gameplay, certainly when there have been no objective reasons given for why it's worth keeping.

3 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

If I had to complain about something it would be the earth timers or the deimos iso vault rotations. Those force me to play at a certain time and not when I myself choose to play. That bothers me.

Okay, so what you have here is a subjective opinion (one I agree with, by the way), one that others can potentially agree with. If I were to be uncharitable, I'd turn your argument against you and accuse you of just wanting to have the rewards from those bits of content too easily, but I empathize with not wanting to wait for arbitrary periods of time, much less organizing one's personal schedule around an arbitrary in-game clock, to be able to start doing the stuff one wants. If you want your opinions to gain traction, you're going to need support from others who may not necessarily have the same experience as you, which means extending that same empathy towards others.

3 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

But trying to make all content fit a single mold so people can rush it. That would definitely wring the enjoyment out of the game for me. So I oppose those things.

I can agree with not wanting to homogenize content unnecessarily, but if there is to be different content, that difference has to be meaningful and enjoyable. Exterminate and Mobile Defense are genuinely different mission types, yet are also both enjoyable because they both bring their own sort of fun gameplay. Reactant, by contrast, does not make fissure missions meaningfully different from regular missions, because either it's just a regular byproduct of the combat we engage in, or it's something we have to wait for, which makes the mechanic redundant at best, and anti-fun at worst. If you believe fissures would be too much like regular mission if reactant were to be removed, then you should be asking yourself now how to differentiate relic runs from regular ones, as reactant is not what differentiates them in a meaningful or enjoyable way.

3 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

this latter group don't have problems with reactant, as they play normally, not nuking, not wiping out everything in a second with a OP weapon or abilities. These people get 10 reactant without problem

This is false. I play Trinity in most of the content I play, and I still struggled with cracking my relics in Grineer Railjack Void Storms, because getting reactant required waiting for prolonged periods of time for crewships and POIs to get hit with corruption waves, if that even happened at all. Back when fissures were first released with the Void Key rework years ago, I also remember there being several mission types where it was impossible to crack open a relic, namely Exterminate and Capture, which is why DE had to massively boost the drop rate of reactant there. Even now, if a player joins a little later on a fissure mission, they are liable to find themselves in the awkward situation where not enough reactant will drop for them to crack open their relic. The problems with reactant have nothing to do with people nuking or using "OP weapon or abilities", and even if that were the case, that would still mean that reactant would need to change, because it wouldn't be balanced properly to the pace at which players run content. I see no gameplay benefit to asking players to nerf themselves or force themselves to busy-wait for the sake of a poorly-implemented mechanic.

3 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

But, OK, lets think of a way to change it. How about using the Requiem Murmur approach, where 10 dedicated enemies wil spawn and you have to kill each one with a finisher to get the reactant off them. Guess what, people will still zoom through the mission to complete it in a minute and then complain that they didn't collect enough, as I see with murmer hunts all the time - I'm hunting down remaining thralls, and they're all sitting at extraction wailing "dude, get to extract".

Great, so your one proposed solution is pointless, by your own admission. As sitfesz pointed out, what you're proposing is just more padding, not a genuine improvement to the quality of those missions.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I shouldn't have to copy and paste my first answer. You asked where my suggestions are as if it wasn't on the first page. Please learn to read. 

"Making enemies corrupt faster would be a good idea, as well as dropping a bit more reactant, but ultimately, it's up to the player to have a modicum of patience."

I have read this comment already, which is why I continue to ask you for a proper answer. Your proposal here is insubstantial, and does not even have the guts to commit itself, as you immediately try to shift the blame back onto players in the same breath, like it's some sort of involuntary reflex. Please perhaps try to come up with something constructive, ideally in a manner that does not involve you compulsively sniping at the playerbase.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I've also stared at a fresh spawn, waiting for it to corrupt, and yea....maybe my pug team was all over the map and maybe corruption is based on proximity? I don't know. Enemies corrupt fine when the team is moving as one, versus one person 300m ahead of the group....Either way, groups of enemies should corrupt faster, and just like when you kill 6 corrupted enemies and 1 or 0 reactant drop, hence the proposal for having more reactant drop.

This is more like it, as you seem to at least be acknowledging that there are some issues with how corruption waves spawn. Your proposal, however, fails to address this issue.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

And most fissure missions (and missions in general) take anywhere from 3minutes to 25m max. That's incredibly fast nowadays when 1 to 4 hour raids were very common on other online games. I personally think warframe respects player time very well. You can get most things in 3 days to 3 weeks tops, yet some players can't even handle that.

Raids in other online games are meant to be epic undertakings that reward player commitment with great achievement and valuable rewards. They are not bits of content meant to be rushed back-to-back, and for that sort of play there are quests and similarly bite-sized features, which themselves give reliable rewards. Fissures, by contrast, are meant to be run repeatedly for a chance at an item one is looking for, one that is usually only a component to the actual thing one can use, with at least one crafting barrier in-between. If you personally think Warframe respects the player's time, and want to cite other games as examples, you may perhaps want to educate yourself with a modicum of video game experience outside of Warframe before speaking with such wanton ignorance. 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2021-04-15 at 2:31 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Reactant, the stuff that serves no purpose except occasionally bugging out and being annoying; Just delete it from the game, it will be better for it.

And while you are at it, stop making enemies invulnerable - like when getting corrupted by a void fissure. Watching enemies do an animation, while waiting for them to stop being invulnerable before you can kill them in one hit, since they fail to represent even the slightest threat, is bad design.

Just saying, I don't actually expect anything to happen.

This is such a simple idea, but imagine how much more fun the game would be without having to worry about that? Small change, big result imo

I fully support this

[Traumtulpe]

23 hours ago, Nickalonte said:

Devs you are doing a fine job jeep it up! Hopefully 1 of you read this and if you do send me a message letting me know it's been seen.

I really though you were serious until I read that part. Well done.

[Steel_Rook]

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, so what you have here is a subjective opinion (one I agree with, by the way), one that others can potentially agree with. If I were to be uncharitable, I'd turn your argument against you and accuse you of just wanting to have the rewards from those bits of content too easily, but I empathize with not wanting to wait for arbitrary periods of time, much less organizing one's personal schedule around an arbitrary in-game clock, to be able to start doing the stuff one wants. If you want your opinions to gain traction, you're going to need support from others who may not necessarily have the same experience as you, which means extending that same empathy towards others.

I agree with this completely. In fact, I'd like to go farther and be a little rude on the subject - the Cetus day/night cycle is bullS#&$. It doesn't exist to foster compelling gameplay, it doesn't exist to foster thematic cohesion. It exists solely to make Arcanes more inconvenient to get as a means of driving their price in the market and limiting their availability. It's quite literally "balance by annoyance." Well, that and appointment mechanics. Warframe somehow got a reputation for being "F2P done right," which always amazes me considering how deep down the well of Mobile game monetisation it reaches. If anything, Warframe is one of the easier games out there to pay one's way to success.

Point being, I agree with the general sentiment. I too would like to get rid of Day/Night cycles altogether, or else let us set time of day on demand. I'm so sick and tired of logging in trying to hunt an Eidolon or two, finding it won't happen for another 60 minutes, playing a bit, going off to lunch and coming back with 45 minutes on the clock still. Let me play the sodding game at my own pace, damn it!

 

On a separate note: It amuses me that the argument keeps being made how if only I would slow down from my 30-minute mission completion time and stop using the overpowered meta gear I'm not using, I'd always have enough Reactant. Yeah? Say that to Survival. I routinely have trouble gathering enough Reactant in that, and do you know why? Because I'm not killing fast enough before the mission automatically times me out every 5 minutes. I NEED powerful gear in order to farm enough enemies and force the RNG. The fact that efficient play is penalised in some Fissures but rewarded in others speaks to a fundamentally flawed implementation.