Petition for PVP

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Could get some more information this summer with Tennocon being right around the corner. Cross save is something that will greatly benefit the game but they've said what the hurdles are. 

Fingers crossed  that it does come but for me personally it has little impact on where I'd be playing personally 

Trust me, I'm not ragging on the idea of cross save, but Crossplay is next to impossible given so many factors.  Cross save is more realistic.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

Trust me, I'm not ragging on the idea of cross save, but Crossplay is next to impossible given so many factors.  Cross save is more realistic.

I follow you, because I think this something that players either ignore, arnt aware of or refuse to acknowledge that this exists.

[(PSN)AdiosGamer]

But there a few Games having cross save and crossplay and no Problem!

then de needs to make price rules and disable exclusiv items.

[MystMan]

Millions of online games in existence + a few dozens with full (not partial) cross play games out there = "This is the norm"
No it's not. Wishfully thinking really hard for something to be what you want it to be while ignoring the factual obstacles won't make it true, that's not how reality works.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-more-games-not-moving-for-more-cross-platform-play <-- explains the economy issues for the companies involved, exclusive contents, unsycnhed updates, input device advantages

https://kotaku.com/cross-platform-gaming-has-been-great-1845804328  <-- this explains all the annoying corporate red tape that one has to go through

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/5sh1br/why_are_more_games_not_moving_for_more/ <-- Microsoft and Sony hate each other.  They are unwilling to be pro-consumer if that means giving each other any leeway. All about economics.

Using the exception as a rule undermines your whole argument. We are nowhere near a time when crossplay has become a common thing. Maybe in 10 years from now.

Warframe didn't even start out on day 1 with consoles available. They came much later, and to make crossplay possible, PC updates would have to be delayed severely so console updates can keep up while going through the arduous certification process.

The very few other games that managed to pull off FULL (not partial) crossplay were simpler designed and were lucky to be in a right corporate position to actually get MS and Sony to agree with one another.  I also noticed that they tend to be server-based games and not peer-2-peer, which is what Warframe is.
Crossplay peer-2-peer is a technological nightmare that is impossible AFAIK (due to incompatibility of various platform-specific networking libraries).

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

1 hour ago, (PSN)AdiosGamer said:

But there a few Games having cross save and crossplay and no Problem!

then de needs to make price rules and disable exclusiv items.

Dude, I'm sorry, but Warframe is not some games. What you're proposing isn't simple.

[----Legacy----]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

All I have to do is point to the overall state of Conclave, a mode warframe has had for 7 years to point that out or else we wouldn't be having this conversation. And look at everything else developed since then. 

Will you really keep repeating that same statement over and over again while disregarding all of the other things -like survival and defense missions- that haven't been touched in years as well?

Spoiler

Inb4 "BuT tHoSe ArE pVe"

 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

16 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Will you really keep repeating that same statement over and over again while disregarding all of the other things -like survival and defense missions- that haven't been touched in years as well?

  Reveal hidden contents

Inb4 "BuT tHoSe ArE pVe"

 

Does that change the fact that the overwhelming majority of content that has been released and is currently being produced is heavily geared to be either played Solo or in a Co-Op format? 

And anything that has been created in a PvP format is anything more than  a gimmick? Plus every other system that existed in this environment related to PvP was also removed? 

I mean what game have you been playing for the past 8 years? 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

20 hours ago, (PSN)AdiosGamer said:

But there a few Games having cross save and crossplay and no Problem!

then de needs to make price rules and disable exclusiv items.

I'm also fairly certain that these games were released after Warframe and also implemented fairly early into the games life. 

It's not they they don't want to it's just that it's tricky to pull off for them due certain design choices they made early in the games life that they didn't consider now that effects this from getting it done.

[----Legacy----]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Does that change the fact that the overwhelming majority of content that has been released and is currently being produced is heavily geared to be either played Solo or in a Co-Op format? 

How is that even relevant? That proves that the devs are enslaved creating new PvE content to keep the game alive while PvP still manages to have a playerbase despite getting no new content in years.

And i say enslaved because I'm sure that if PvE stops getting updates then warframe goes the way of the dodo, just like it already starts happening when the wait between 2 updates gets too long and people here start crying that there is nothing to do, while pvp manages to keep players despite having nearly to no maintenance.

Can you see now why "ThEy Do NoThInG fOr CoNcLaVe" is just a moot point?

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

And anything that has been created in a PvP format is anything more than  a gimmick? Plus every other system that existed in this environment related to PvP was also removed? 

So you keep twisting facts to fill your biased narrative. The only thing removed were solar rails, the current conclave is a rework of the old one that didn't even have its own balance and started back in 2015 and kept ongoing for around 2 years and, as you have mentioned yourself, keeps getting minor maintenance to this day. I won't deny it's not in the level it should since a minor balance pass or straight removal of certain weapons would do a lot, but doing that would give its current playerbase enough to enjoy itself for several years or until PvE updates break conclave again, thing that cannot be said for the PvE side of the game which will eventually die without updates.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

19 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

How is that even relevant? That proves that the devs are enslaved creating new PvE content to keep the game alive while PvP still manages to have a playerbase despite getting no new content in years.

Or it simply boils down to this: They picked a street and decided to stay in that lane, I think it's literally that simple.

23 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Can you see now why "ThEy Do NoThInG fOr CoNcLaVe" is just a moot point?

U29 for a grand total of SIX lines dedicated to Conclave. How is that a moot point? That's basically nothing.

28 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

And i say enslaved because I'm sure that if PvE stops getting updates then warframe goes the way of the dodo, just like it already starts happening when the wait between 2 updates gets too long and people here start crying that there is nothing to do, while pvp manages to keep players despite having nearly minimal maintenance 

So wouldn't you think DE has talked about this very topic? I mean it's not like they have all the data at there disposal themselves to make there own conclusions. They'd have done the work by now right? I'd says that's a reasonable assumption and conclusion to come to. So I ask you: Where is it?

They could eventually do the work but are you confident that won't eventually end up where it is now? 

42 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

So you keep twisting facts to fill your biased narrative.  

But they did remove a PvP system totally and are supporting Conclave a very small way correct? That's the narrative. 

53 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

 and its current playerbase would have enough to enjoy itself for several years, thing thar cannot be said for the PvE side of the game.

So what have we been enjoying for the past 8 years then? You said it yourself that between 2015 and 2017 the support for Conclave was better. So having been that far removed from then considering its now 2021, what happened? Because PvP is basically being buried and left to rot.

I mean look what happened to this very forum post, something that is actually appropriate to place in general discussion got moved to the Conclave page of the forum. What does that suggest to you. 

That alone should say enough right? 

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Or it simply boils down to this: They picked a street and decided to stay in that lane, I think it's literally that simple.

They want to keep the game alive, but if they stop releasing PvE content their PvE playerbase will stop coming back. I guess that's a lot more likely than "picking a lane and deciding to stay in it"

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

U29 for a grand total of SIX lines dedicated to Conclave. How is that a moot point? That's basically nothing.

Six lines that show that they still support pvp and prove that it requires a lot less maintenance than PvE. Now if DE fixed the actual bugs affecting conclave balance and made a couple of minor improvements, you can be sure that not even a single line dedicated to conclave fixes would be needed for a long time.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

But they did remove a PvP system totally and are supporting Conclave a very small way correct? That's the narrative

They removed solar rails because these used PvE's lack of balance and due to the political issues created on its side while the old conclave was reworked to fix many of its issues, like balance and and adding the ability to get 8 players in a single match (it used to be capped on 4), dedicated servers, amongst other stuff.

Your narrative is quite shallow, might want to dig a bit deeper on it before trying to push it any further.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

So what have we been enjoying for the past 8 years then?

NEW content? The PvE side of the game starts going down as soon as players get all of the new shinies and you can be sure that it would die rather quickly if DE announced that no further updates will be made to it.

And on the other hand we have PvP players who have kept playing the game despite getting nothing new in years, but you obviously keep failing to notice that.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Because PvP is basically being buried and left to rot.

Didn't you claim yourself that pvp got six lines of patch notes in a recent update? As i pointed above, that's more than what it would need if DE made a couple of improvements, and also shows that it isn't being "buried and left to rot" as you claim. You've just defeated your own narrative.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I mean look what happened to this very forum post, something that is actually appropriate to place in general discussion got moved to the Conclave page of the forum. What does that suggest to you. 

That alone should say enough right? 

It suggests me that PvE players report every single pvp related thread made in GD and the mods eventually move them here without even checking if the reports are right or not.

At least "petition" threads like this one make some degree of sense being moved to feedback since these are intended to be read by devs rather than to discuss with the community. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Your narrative is quite shallow, might want to dig a bit deeper on it before trying to push it any further.

How is the narrative shallow if we're literally having this discussion in a Petition post?

A petition

Something that you would want community members to get behind? So where's the support for it? 

The overall story and the state of Conclave is the narrative. Why else would a petition for PvP even be needed if that wasn't the case? 

We can argue about all the merit for and against but we would just go on in circles but the narrative really doesn't support an argument when every time this debate arises: it gets sent to Conclave to be discussed within the Conclave community. Theres no progress

A petition post made in General Discussion shouldn't leave General Discussion board as although my oppinion is the opposite of yours: It should be heard, and by the community.

But that's the narrative. The support is minimal and until that changes its still going to be.

I'm willing to bet there's PLENTY of feedback regarding this so would it be safe to assume that a decision has been made on it? 

Do you see it changing? Do you see anything DE is working on that changes this? 

That's the narrative 

 

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

How is the narrative shallow if we're literally having this discussion in a Petition post?

You're the one making it shallow, most likely because going a bit deeper than what you're trying to stay takes it down quite easily. And it doesn't matter if it's a petition, feedback or discussion post, that won't change that you're trying to keep the narrative as shallow as possible and then trying to move it somewhere else (like the kind of post) in your attempt to shoehorn a moot point.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

The overall story and the state of Conclave is the narrative. 

A narrative that tells just half of the story and perhaps even less. 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Why else would a petition for PvP even be needed if that wasn't the case? 

Because OP is asking for something that isn't in the game? Not sure if you read the original post or if you managed to understand what it says, but OP isn't asking for a way to make PvP like the existing conclave, he's asking for solar rails pvp to be brought back (which would be neat now that most of its issues have been solved by the PvP rework) and for clan wars involving up to 100 players (which doesn't make sense imo since the engine can barely handle 8 players in a single instance unless DE starts removing animations and stuff from other players, like in relays)
 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

We can argue about all the merit for and against but we would just go on in circles but the narrative really doesn't support an argument when every time this debate arises: it gets sent to Conclave to be discussed within the Conclave community. Theres no progress

I get it, you'd prefer the pvp related threads like this one being kept in GD where the hivemind echoes "cOnClAvE bAd, PlS dElEtE" and upvotes anything on the same tone while bashing anyone who says otherwise rather than having a real discussion with the part of the community that actually plays and cares about PvP.
 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

A petition post made in General Discussion shouldn't leave General Discussion board as although my oppinion is the opposite of yours: It should be heard, and by the community

I agree with petitions needing to be heard for as many people as possible, but that won't change that the devs themselves have staed that they don't check GD anymore so request being made there is basically screaming to the void; these are more likely going to be heard if done in the proper feedback subforums, which are open for anyone to provide feedback anyways so there isn't that much of a difference to begin with. If you have any trouble with the thread being moved here, you're free to ask the moderation team about their reasoning for it and might even be able to get it moved back to GD.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

But that's the narrative. The support is minimal and until that changes its still going to be.

Once again, support is iminimal because PvP doesn't require a decent influx of brand new content, unlike PvE where the community starts crying "content drought" a couple of weeks after an update which is how long it usually takes to beat RNG, the only challenge in PvE.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I'm willing to bet there's PLENTY of feedback regarding this so would it be safe to assume that a decision has been made on it?

Looks like the decision is keeping a pvp aspect in the game since getting a small but steady positive return from little to no investment is a positive ROI.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Do you see it changing? Do you see anything DE is working on that changes this? 

I've seen many conclave fixes that haven't been mentioned in the patch/update notes, so i wouldn't be surprised if DE was trying to release those as silently as possible in oder to avoid rubbing the PvE purists in the wrong way; De knows these can be awfully loud and don't hesitate to disregard huge posts with new content to turn the celebration of a brand new update into a huge group tantrum just because conclave gets 1 minor fix. DE knows their community good enough and there's no need to have been here for years to notice  that given how vocal can get certain segment of the community.

Also, DE is usually spread all over the place working on different stuff at once, so since conclave doesn't need huge updates -unlike the content hungry PvE side of the game- it makes sense for them to put conclave in the backburner and throw fixes to it slowly. The world wide sanitary crisis won't make things easier for them either, but it's always nice to see that they have managed to play around it and add new content to the game in order to keep it going.

Nice cherry picking btw.

[-BG-StormFighter117]

I am 100% on board with having a clan and alliance competitive system that brings some sort of purpose to the game. I personally know that several hundred if not thousands of players would be very happy to have something like that. PvP or PvE.

There are several unfortunate things to consider.

1. Roughly 99% of the PvP community is dead and gone because DE dropped conclave a long time ago and Dark Sectors have been gone for 6 years now. Anyone left thinking they're going to bring PvP into the game is crazy (and yes I've been tested). So you'll likely get a very small response in terms of starting a petition and yes, I actually had one with 300-400 players signed up and DE just removed it... 300-400 players signed up on the forums imo is something impressive as most clans have to do numerous platinum giveaways and constantly advertise where I did none of that.

2. They simply cannot go the route of PvP as they have a dedicated server issue (as seen with Dark Sectors in 2015 and Conclave currently) - The balancing was also an issue before and still is. If they make an entire new system we have to consider that Warframe will still be Warframe and the fundamentals of movement, abilities, etc will still be at play. Movement would have to be significantly reduced as to allow any enjoyment by the casual player base which for Warframe accounts for like 90-100% of the current population.

3. How would it make money? Player Retention? Why do you think they removed Raids? It had great player retention and a 50k member discord server that was crushed with confidence. Player retention is hard to measure especially when you have a top management that want to milk the game for as much money as possible (cough Leyou / I know its Tencent now but does it make a difference?)

I believe that DE can make something thats PvE that brings a strong meaning to Clans and Alliances. They could also make some sort of true endgame with it comprising of a functional economy that regulates the games currencies and resources. But something at this level would require maintenance and money to produce. From a business perspective, it makes more sense to accept a project such as a 4th open world than to do this, simply because a 4th open world is more proven to turn a profit. If you can answer how DE can balance the game properly and make a large profit that outweighing other projects then that's a real start.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

16 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Nice cherry picking btw.

How is it cherry picking when a "petition for PvP" is the very point why were even here? 

A petition. To the Dev team. For PvP. 

I don't know how much more clear the state of things can be if this is occurring. We wouldn't be even having this discussion, titled in the way it is if that wasn't the case. 

That's fair right? That's a fair assumption to make, correct? 

If your using this to plead a case to the community, then General Discussion is the best place for it to occur because, as you said it's apart of the overall game just like every other aspect of warframe.

Because with that argument: General PvP discussion can and should be held in the same space overall regardless if the developers read it or not.

Is that also a fair, rational point to make?

I think that's just an objective observation of the ongoing situation. Because this IS a petition for PvP. That says it all dosent it? 

 

 

[----Legacy----]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

How is it cherry picking when a "petition for PvP" is the very point why were even here? 

A petition. To the Dev team. For PvP. 

I don't know how much more clear the state of things can be if this is occurring. We wouldn't be even having this discussion, titled in the way it is if that wasn't the case. 

That's fair right? That's a fair assumption to make, correct? 

If your using this to plead a case to the community, then General Discussion is the best place for it to occur because, as you said it's apart of the overall game just like every other aspect of warframe.

Because with that argument: General PvP discussion can and should be held in the same space overall regardless if the developers read it or not.

Is that also a fair, rational point to make?

I think that's just an objective observation of the ongoing situation. Because this IS a petition for PvP. That says it all dosent it? 

Oh, so not happy with cherrypicking, you start repeating yourself while entirely omitting that the exact same comment from which you nitpicked a quote replies to the things you've reposted in this one.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

2 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Oh, so not happy with cherrypicking, you start repeating yourself while entirely omitting that the exact same comment from which you nitpicked a quote replies to the things you've reposted in this one.

I mean Im just kinda just stating the obvious. Whether you like that or not isn't my problem. 

If that doesn't say enough about the overall situation I don't know what will due to the fact that this is a petition post for PvP right? 

If it wasn't necessary this wouldn't be a topic for discussion in the first place. 

If that doesn't sum everything up I don't know what we'll, because it's That's simple.

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I mean Im just kinda just stating the obvious. Whether you like that or not isn't my problem. 

Seriously? At this point you're only bypassing the discussion and playing deaf to the points made by the other side when you fail to discuss them in order to keep repeating yourself instead of, you know, having an actual discussion.
 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

38 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Seriously? At this point you're only bypassing the discussion and playing deaf to the points made by the other side when you fail to discuss them in order to keep repeating yourself instead of, you know, having an actual discussion.
 

It's not just me doing that though is it? 

I've clearly said that this discussion should still take place, I haven't denied that there shouldn't be a say regardless of my personal views on it. 

Were simply going around in circles at this point but look at this objectively:

This simple topic, a petition advocating for your side to the community at large is something that should have taken place where this forum post originated. 

Only for it to be moved here to the page that's PvP centric where basically: its only going to be discussed within the Conclave community. 

What does that say about this issue overall? That a PvE centric community dosent want to hold it. 

Personally what DE needs to do is completely remarket it as a whole, basically start from scratch to garner any interest overall. Plus have some really good rewards to actually entice players to even consider returning.

New name, new everything.

There's plenty of rewards in Conclave already, but I can point to only 1 thing I would even consider having interest in: The Celestia Syandana, everything else I have absolutely no interest in.

The Celestia Syandana is a cool concept I'll give you that but every other cosmetic just dosent entice me to play. 

And that's going to be a tough sell in 2021 and being this far in.

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

-snip-

So, will you now actually reply to the couple of posts i did above which were both entirely nitpicked? or did those just take down every single one of your points entirely and left you unable to say anything that isn't repeating exactly the same post over and over again?

[(PSN)AdiosGamer]

Push 

[Ancient_Secret]

I came back to Warframe after a long hiatus (i.e. finished all my other games and no money to buy new ones LOL).

From playing around with about half the weapons trying to get MR up, I can see that some weapons/frames are super imbalanced. Like... it's not even about removing some of those from PvP, but rescaling the damage/range/spread/multi and many other factors to even make this relatively balanced.

 

**the elephant in the room**

Also most PvP based games can become really, really toxic.  From reading some moderator actions/watching some YouTube videos about toxicity in Warframe, I can say that mods definitely want this game as clean as possible.

Basically, I don't see legit PvP ever happening.  I remember when dojos first came out and PvP was super imba lol

Just my two cents. Cheers.

[Kontrollo]

3 hours ago, Ancient_Secret said:

I came back to Warframe after a long hiatus (i.e. finished all my other games and no money to buy new ones LOL).

From playing around with about half the weapons trying to get MR up, I can see that some weapons/frames are super imbalanced. Like... it's not even about removing some of those from PvP, but rescaling the damage/range/spread/multi and many other factors to even make this relatively balanced.

Separately balanced PvP has been a thing since they started Conclave 2.0 in 2015. Although it has deteriorated over time, because they didn't bother to separate it cleanly enough. Then problems got introduced with some PvE patches that were never properly addressed. Overall, it's still relatively balanced, but the outliers can ruin games.

 

3 hours ago, Ancient_Secret said:

**the elephant in the room**

Also most PvP based games can become really, really toxic.  From reading some moderator actions/watching some YouTube videos about toxicity in Warframe, I can say that mods definitely want this game as clean as possible. ...

And so you decided your first action on the forums after such a long time should be to make some blanket accusations against a small part of the community.

But at least you're in good company. That's a common theme around here.

If you have a problem with other people -- and that goes for PvE as well -- there's an easy fix: mute and/or report them.

[Hawkeye2404]

On 2021-04-29 at 8:33 AM, Ancient_Secret said:

I came back to Warframe after a long hiatus (i.e. finished all my other games and no money to buy new ones LOL).

From playing around with about half the weapons trying to get MR up, I can see that some weapons/frames are super imbalanced. Like... it's not even about removing some of those from PvP, but rescaling the damage/range/spread/multi and many other factors to even make this relatively balanced.

 

**the elephant in the room**

Also most PvP based games can become really, really toxic.  From reading some moderator actions/watching some YouTube videos about toxicity in Warframe, I can say that mods definitely want this game as clean as possible.

Basically, I don't see legit PvP ever happening.  I remember when dojos first came out and PvP was super imba lol

Just my two cents. Cheers.

In the few thousand missions I've done since I've started playing Warframe, and in the short time I've recently started playing Conclave, I can probably count on the fingers of my two hands the amount of times I've encountered toxic players in missions or squads with me. Warframe has the friendliest and most supportive community I've ever seen. 90% of the time players don't communicate at all, and almost always when they do communicate they are not toxic. The community is almost never toxic to one another in-game. Outside of the game, like on these forums, it is an entirely different story. But if you've read of or watched videos claiming that the playerbase is toxic in-game, then I've got to wonder if your sources are giving you out of date or false information, because that has certainly not been my experience. Not in the least.

[Sevek7]

On 2021-04-29 at 2:33 AM, Ancient_Secret said:

Also most PvP based games can become really, really toxic. 

Yes, but it's not really PvP itself that causes this. Any game with challenging gameplay leads to toxicity among immature gamers. This happens regardless of whether that challenge exists in a PvP or PvE form.

Warframe's PvE is non-toxic, because it's braindead-level easy. There's never a need to coordinate with your teammates, and so players generally just ... don't communicate at all during missions.

It's hard to have a toxic interaction when there's no interaction at all.

[Side note: The few instances where coordination was necessary in Warframe's PvE (Eidolon hunts, early Railjack) did have high levels of toxicity.]