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Update 30: Sevagoth + Epitaph Feedback Megathread (Closed)


[DE]CoreyOnline

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So I've been playing around with Sevagoth a for a few days now, dumping loads of forma into the guy. He's fun, but my main critique is that he is insanely too reliant on Gloom to survive. Now, normally this isn't a problem.....except when you run into a faction that prides themselves in Nullifying abilities.

 

From this point on, I'm making my judgement based on Steel Path gameplay. So, if all you do is deal with Grineer all day, even on Steel Path, you won't find an issue whatsoever, they are a cakewalk once you get a good build, since they have no way to combat gloom. Infested you just need to watch out for disruptor hookshots, mainly, because they will drain your energy to zero at that point.

Corpus on especially on the new tileset (which is now any time you are doing a "Corpus Ship" mission) are a nightmare. They deal a lot of damage because, for whatever reason, every crewman that spawns is using a Supra...you know, the weapon of a Corpus Tech? High fire rate, lots of damage, so you NEED Gloom. Problem is when nullifiers come in. On their own, no problem. But, on the new tilesets, nullifers either sport rapid fire weapons (which also do some considerable hurting), or go in with melee, with the latter having a better chance of covering a group of twelve crewman (Steel Path higher spawn rate), all sporting Supras, to ignore your gloom and gun you down. What also does not help is the range of Gloom, which makes him an open target in much larger maps where enemies can shoot well out of Gloom's range.....like in the new ship tilesets. Essentially, don't take Sevagoth on the new Corpus ships in steel path, unless you are really on your toes.

Now, I get he has a passive to revive himself....but you shouldn't have to be doing it every thirty seconds (exaggeration, but you get the idea). It gets annoying to be forced into a gimped version of a Shadow, who also can get gunned down easily if you aren't moving around like a chicken with their head cut off. Even when using the actual shadow and being tanky with natural stats and a first ability that's solid crowd control, it's not going to do anything to a group of Surpa wielding corpus underneath a bubble. Adaptation and natural armor is not going to last long if you aren't careful.


But, of course, you can avoid all this by using a niche mod for a Miter. Go for it.



The above example just emphasizes a point that many posts have mentioned. Sevagoth really needs something aside from Gloom to keep him alive, unless you intend to just die a lot and use a handicapped Shadow.  He is too reliant on one ability to really contend in survivability, and with the game introducing ability killing mechanics more and more often, he loses his effectiveness very quick. Some people have already proposed ideas as to how to do it, so I'll abstain from suggestions of my own.

Other than that, he is very solid.

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Two forma on base form, none on shadow form, one on claws. TL;DR: This frame is at best C tier and really needs some serious help.

STATS
Not great. Really squishy in base form, and a lack of aura polarity is a noticeable omission. V polarity is great, D not so much. I added a V aura and overwrote the D with another V.

PASSIVE
Literally useless. You can't really aim with it, and I can never tell if I've actually hit anything. Might as well not have a passive.

REAP
It's a fireball with a DoT. It's fine, and it's kind of fun to aim, but it gets stuck on level geometry.

SOW
A radial DoT. The Reap-Sow combo IS fun, and deals an amount of damage, but what is that amount? I really can't tell.

GLOOM
The wind-up is pointless on this. Drains way too quickly for what it is.

EXALTED SHADOW/REUNITE
It, uh, changes form. Yep. Overall, Shadow form is kind of useless, in my opinion. This is made worse by the fact that light form retains energy between transitions, shadow form does not. Not sure if this is a bug.

EMBRACE
This, though, is great. Probably the coolest and best Pull clone.

CONSUME
This is super buggy. I either vastly overshoot my target or launch into oblivion. Great when it works, but could use a more generous reticule.

DEATH’S HARVEST
Does this do anything? No serious? This seems to add a status, but what it does I have no idea. EDIT: Okay, this is a lot better than I thought it was. Basically a massive debuff.

SHADOW CLAWS
Why do these scale off Sevagoth's base form's stats instead of Shadow's if the shadow is the one using them? Using these feels actively detrimental to your damage, and the animation on these are really buggy.

FINAL THOUGHTS
I really dislike this frame. And not in a "oh man, a few bug fixes and he'll be a champ." No, this frame is just Baruuquinox with a touch of Saryn. I don't hate this frame by any means, but I just don't see a point, and I think we've hit diminishing returns with how many designs we can have. I think he's going away for a while when I finish this next leveling cycle. If there's one thing I would change, it's the fact that claws scale off normal Sevagoth.

Also Wraithe was a way cooler name than Sevagoth. Sounds like someone went all in on the edgelord juice with Sevagoth.

EDIT: Forgot to add: Sevagoth's shadow form is bugged. Switching forms on console will act like the R button is still held after you switch forms, so attempting to jump without briefly holding the button after swapping forms will often mean I cast my 1.

EDIT 2: Added some stuff after a little more time with the frame. I like him more, but he does need some fixes.

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1 minute ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

..., this frame is just Baruuquinox with a touch of Saryn....

Funny that you should say that. I used to say that this is just Molecular Prime the Warframe, plus healing.

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Sevagoth:

I originally didnt think i would enjoy the frame but after 6 forma (2 per slot and no umbra forma yet) i am really liking it, and 2 per slot is fair in my opinion as far as time and forma investment goes. Could probably make it even better with 1 more forma per slot , but it is good enough for sortie and steel path so i will probably leave it as is (but now i have a forma candidate for the nightwave if it comes).

I overall like the kit but i cant help but feel like its been Frankensteined out of potential frame rework concepts and existing abilities - but hey after so many frames released i suppose there is little that could added from a ability concept that isn't similar to something else so i dont really have a problem with it (just hope it doesnt get in the way of actual rework of other frames).

I have mostly been playing it as a debuff , CC frame with sporadic support capability.

But i am not sure about how some of the synergy works

eg. when in bleedout you switch to shadow ... but a different shadow with a different health pool and different 1 shot ability?

Or when reap is cast it is supposed to give the deaths harvest debuff, i cant tell if thats based on sevagoths stats or the shadows stats (or if it is something completely different) the wiki identifies it with sevagoth but "deaths harvest " is a shadow ability.

Also not sure of the purpose of the "hold at position swirl" when aiming as it only damages enemies once could the hold effect be some sort of radial pulse over time? would also be cool if you casting sow caused the reap shadow to cast it as well (i am basically asking to extend the wisp + radial blind synergy to reap + sow).

The % of enemy health as radial damage is also confusing , how much exactly are we talking about? does it scale with strength difficult to identify as it is also affected by range i think?

The shadow appearance also lacks in customization in my opinion , most of the ephemeras also dont seem to work properly (i expect its because they arent made for sevagoths mesh) maybe it needs to be updated.

The above things are minor and not really something i feel he needs.

But something i think he needs is something more for his 4th ability , currently its the switch ability but other than that it does little , some minor radial effect upon switching between forms would be welcome , i understand that it costs zero energy but it does cost some death well points (maybe every time you switch it costs 10% of the well and gives some additional effects?)

His claws should also ideally be based off his shadows strength , not Sevagoths as they are the Shadows claws.

The energy drain ... i think is manageable but i have top tier gear , so its easy for me , i dont think it is as easy for mid level players to sustain him so maybe some reduction in energy cost would make him more appealing? cause without his health leech aura sevagoth is rather squishy.

I mostly stay in sevagoth form as the shadow form though fun seems slower for some reason? not sure if coding bug or just my perception. I think the shadow needs something a little more to make it more worth staying in outside of using the pull to group enemies.

The claws are cool , just another claw based weapon though , its a tool , a good tool but not something that has excited me honestly. I can do just as much if not more damage with my regular melee weapons.

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My issues with Sevagoth, that are still issues regardless of build:

1. REAP has the same problem with pathing that the Transmutation probe had, it gets stuck on obstacles far too easily. You have a fix for that, why didn't you use it? It's also kinda slow, Sevagoth can bullet jump faster than it.

It also doesn't apply a status effect. Most other abilities that don't have scaling damage at least apply a status. Yes it applies damage vulnerability, but the base is 50%. With a 234% strength build I have 116% percent damage vulnerability. A status effect would give me 120% more damage with Condition Overload. Radiation status would also help with Sevagoth's survivability in higher levels, so he doesn't need to rely solely on Gloom.

2. SOW doesn't deal damage immediately on cast, it takes a second for the first tick to deal damage. I don't know if this is intended or not, and it's not a big issue, it's just not what I expected. It feels like it's not doing anything at first.

Damage doesn't scale with enemy level. It woudn't matter, but the damage from the 1+2 combo is Blast damage. It's fine in lower levels, but it's kinda useless at higher levels, even though it scales with enemy health. Grineer's armor has resistance, and it doesn't go past Corpus shields. It's the same reason that Protea's 4 isn't good as a damage ability. You may accumulate tons of damage, but the implosion won't do much to armored enemies.

3. GLOOM is fine I guess.. Heavy drain, but I guess you're not meant to have it on all the time. But compared to other healing abilities, it's just not as reliable. 

4. EXALTED SHADOW overall the shadow form is very slow. It should have a higher sprint speed than the main body, but it feels slower. Like a flying snail (0.95 vs. 1.10 sprint speed).

SHADOW CLAWS - range is lower than Valkyr's Talons, what is up with that?

Also, why do the Exalted Weapons even have a stance? We can't change it and it doesn't increase the mod capacity, it's always 60. That's why exalted weapons require 5 or 6 formas for a decent build. I get why Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush can't be used (higher base damage, frames have augments that make the exalted wepons beter etc.), but having lower mod capacity in addition to not having polarities, makes them not really worth the investment compared to normal melee weapons.

EMBRACE - enemies get stuck on obstacles pretty often. It's fine otherwise to bring enemies in melee range.

CONSUME - can't steer, can't cancel. At least Lavos's Vial Rush could be cancelled. It's also very fast compared to how slow the Shadow moves. If the lifesteal wasn't tied to this, it would be fine as a movement ability. But since the only way to heal the shadow form is tied to this rush that is hard to control, it's another unreliable survivability ability. Especially since it's the only ability you can use when you die to revive yourself.

You also can't pass through more than one enemy at once. As a result, you shoot slightly upwards if you try to dash at a group of enemies. 

What I feel would work better (and I don't think that such drastic changes to abilities are necessary, but it would be nice): change it to a drain ability, with lifesteal while it lasts, but you can then just pass through enemies, healing yourself and dealing damage. I also feel like the shadow should be able to pass through smaller obstacles, like railings and boxes, but I don't know how feasible that is in terms of programming.

DEATH'S HARVEST - it's fine, but again, status + condition overload is more effective. Also, Panzer Vulpaphyla can spread viral procs everywhere, which give an 325% increase.

Overall, I get what Sevagoth is supposed to be, both support and damage, depending on what is needed. But there are issues that make him a bit too unreliable for me, and I just wasn't having fun playing him.

He is fine in lower level missions, but we need to use higher levels (Steel Path, maybe Railjack Veil Proxima and Sorties) and the standard, because you can do the starchart pretty darn easily with any frame and even most weapons. And considering that Sevagoth drops from pretty high level  missions (Railjack still needs time to get to the point where you can do Neptune and  higher missions without a problem, and fissure missions are higher level), I was expecting he would do better in higher level content.

 

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23 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

On a side note, has anyone figured out the % that Reap + Sow deals? Does it scale with Ability Strength and Range? Seems like it is radial Radiation damage since Armor makes the damage dip hard at higher levels.

I wish i could figure this out. Everytime i use him even with over 100% Power Strength, his Ghost seems to do no Damage to enemies affected by Sow.

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After some (many) Forma on Sevagoth, his Shadow and it's Shadow Claws, I'd like to make some remarks:

- Passive: mostly ok, could have a clearer indicator of what should the player do as the Shadow. Damage Enemies? Kill them with Consume? It is not very clear once you die and have limited time. 

- Reap: the damage buff could be better. We have frames that boosts their damage 275% with just 100% power strenght, we have Condition Overload, we have Viral Procs that scale stack, and so on. So the damage buff could scale a little better. The Shadow's movement is slow, I can outrun it as Sevagoth. It could get at least a bonus speed when the player aims and directs the shadow at some point.
And it gets stuck in the geometry sometimes, could use a fix like it was done to Lavo's Transmuter Probe.

- Sow: Max range could be a little longer. Plus the edge of the AoE could be better shown for the player to understand where exactly has the ability been activated and where it has not.

- Gloom: Casting time is horrendously bad, if you are in a bad situtation and need to cast Gloom to survive you'll be dead before the casting animation finishes.
The energy consumption is also way too high for a warframe that doesn't have that much base energy to start with. Max range could also get a buff.

- Exalted Shadow: It's base "sprint" speed feels kind of low, could get a movement buff.
The fact that you start with low energy even though Sevagoth's energy may even be full doesn't help either, you'll get only ~2 ability casts before running out of energy unless you remember to use Zenurik's Void Dash before casting this ability, or get lucky enough to get an energy orb near you. A possible solution could be it having the ammount of energy that Sevagoth had when cast it, with the penalty of when you return to Sevagoth you will maintain the ammount of energy you had as the Shadow Form.

- Embrace: Enemies in other rooms that are visible on open doors cause the doors to instantly close when they are ragdolled by this ability, preventing them from coming to you. Other than that, I feel like it is fine.

- Consume: Could be somewhat steerable, like Lavo's Vial Rush. Because it isn't and it can't be cancelled, it tends to get the player stuck in some geometry on the map with a certain frequency.

- Death's Harvest: Exact same problems as Sow.

Overall Sevagoth feels like Protea and Xaku did at their respective launches: he has a lot of potential, but he needs a couple of buffs and overall improvements to really live up to what he promises.

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Two things that would greatly increase how fun Sevagoth is:

1. Change Reap into an extremely wide frontal cone that looks like his Shadow is reaping the area with a scythe. Thematic, less clunky, and faster.

2. Change his Shadow's dash (Consume) into something that can be angled and that ends on contact, like the Vanguard Charge ability in Mass Effect 2/3. That was a fun ability to use. His Shadow really needs something that makes it more fun to control. Currently Consume ain't it. An overall speed increase for the Shadow wouldn't hurt either. Or maybe make him glide or something. 

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I have to agree with much of what the OP says: Sevagoth has a great theme and aesthetic, but virtually none of it feels properly utilized on his kit, and his Shadow in particular almost feels detrimental to use due to its limitations. There's a lot I'd want to do to change the frame, but the most basic improvements I'd like to see would include the following:

  • Increase the Shadow's base speed and allow it to sprint.
  • Let the Shadow fly unrestricted in any direction.
  • Let the Shadow ignore unit collision with enemies.

That way, the ghost form could properly feel like a ghost, instead of being constantly grounded and hamstrung by slow movement speed and a total lack of parkour.

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hace 14 horas, Velaethia dijo:

Have you actually played him? It's impossible to do any objective with his passives. It's hardly OP. Yeah he can revive at high level. But first of all your shadow CAN and will die in like 5 seconds in steel path. Second some enemies seem immune to the one hit mechanic (not even bosses). The dash is super buggy and rarely seems to hit. Causing you to have to spam it over and over again. Rather than 5 hits you need like a dozen at least. And even then you rez only to die 5 seconds later. it's hardly over powered. Nidus is much more immortal and doesn't even despawn acolytes when his undying mechanic procs. 

I agree that it is kinda clunky, but as you can see here is not clunky enough for it to stop being usefull, and as to dying in 5 seconds after reviving I myself can do wel enough with gloom (pd: yes, the gameplay is mine)

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reap: needs an AI asap, even a simple one, like, if you are not pointing/aiming, reap start looking by himself for nearby enemies, also i think that it should deal damage more than just one time because right now after reap hits an enemy, it stops dealing damage to him, even if it keeps spinnign around.

sow: the damage is really bad

gloom: energy drain is monstrously high, and the gain isn't even that good..

 

shadow: i think that this is the most bugged and less performing ability for sevagoth.. the animations are really bugged, the damage is...mhe, consume is really clunky, harvest has nothign special.

anfd again, the energy is also a problem, not really that bad, but still, a little Qol change could help.
shadow in particular really needs massive changes, because it just feel awful, it's a exalted melee that feels weak to use.

 

sevagoth stats: overall, his stats/abilities stats needs a boost.

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I have to partially disagree, Sevagoth is a reasonably powerful Warframe. The two first abilities may need a bit more base damage, but works for filling the Death Well quick, Gloom is a really good ability even with the high energy drain and his Shadow, despite feeling a bit clunky, is powerful. Maybe not Steel Path worthy, but not everything can chew Steel Path easily (but I can see that he could with a few buffs).

14 hours ago, Rovaeden said:

and the claw attack is terribad even with primed reach because it only seems to hit the exact center dot of my crosshairs, there is no cleave to speak of.

And the claws actually can cleave through enemies without primed reach, it's just that you need to get close to the enemies. A buff on its attack range would be nice, even though Embrace can fix the range problem by pulling enemies in front of him.

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On 2021-04-19 at 9:52 AM, (XBOX)Orcus Imperium said:

last i fought the stalker, it IS immune to being dispelled. I can even float into nully bubbles without even worrying about them.

 

unless that ISN'T intended....

Acolyte keep disable my shadow 

 

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6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I have to agree with much of what the OP says: Sevagoth has a great theme and aesthetic, but virtually none of it feels properly utilized on his kit, and his Shadow in particular almost feels detrimental to use due to its limitations. There's a lot I'd want to do to change the frame, but the most basic improvements I'd like to see would include the following:

  • Increase the Shadow's base speed and allow it to sprint.
  • Let the Shadow fly unrestricted in any direction.
  • Let the Shadow ignore unit collision with enemies.

That way, the ghost form could properly feel like a ghost, instead of being constantly grounded and hamstrung by slow movement speed and a total lack of parkour.

The shadow is faster than average, can sprint, and can parkour exactly like any other frame.

It might not look fast because of the weird camera angle, it might sometimes end up being slower than you think it should be because it doesn't benefit from Amalgam Serration on your primary weapon, and it might be hard to tell apart the "walk" animation from the "sprint" animation since it's just two almost identical glides, but it is faster than average and it can sprint. And the "total lack of parkour".... did you even try? You didn't even try. If you had tried it you would know. Did you even get the frame to begin with? Or are you just regurgitating nonsense from some jaded streamer/youtuber who got completely tired of Warframe years ago and only still plays the game because there's money to be made from people who are unable to form an opinion of their own?

Honestly, it's hard to take any feedback seriously when some people can't get the most absolutely basic facts straight to begin with.

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Heads up, could you do something about the range inconsistency in open world areas? And I mean that on the enemy side, cause as much as I love the death forgiveness in this game, long range attacks in open world are rediculus....we have a limit on how far our bullets go, but enemies sure as hell don't...also, tone down the bombers in poe steel path...nothing I love more than to be chased around the whole map by a bomber you can barely dent let alone run away from short of finding a cave and staying there...

I wouldent really be bothered by the range issue of the enemies except extremely squish frames are easy pickings from long range in open world...sevagoth, vauban, hydroid...most of the frames that have no damage reduction other than cc are overlooked for open world content...I feel like most of the frames with 100 armor are in this category

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Coming out of Sevagoth shadow reverting to original FoV even when expanded in settings.

 

When coming out of Sevagoth's 4th ability, the view seems to revert back to it's original view - FoV of (70?) even when I have extended this to 90. Not sure if this is a bug or intended but it normally fixes itself if you switch to operator mode.

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55 minutes ago, ebrl said:

The shadow is faster than average, can sprint, and can parkour exactly like any other frame.

It might not look fast because of the weird camera angle, it might sometimes end up being slower than you think it should be because it doesn't benefit from Amalgam Serration on your primary weapon, and it might be hard to tell apart the "walk" animation from the "sprint" animation since it's just two almost identical glides, but it is faster than average and it can sprint. And the "total lack of parkour".... did you even try? You didn't even try. If you had tried it you would know. Did you even get the frame to begin with? Or are you just regurgitating nonsense from some jaded streamer/youtuber who got completely tired of Warframe years ago and only still plays the game because there's money to be made from people who are unable to form an opinion of their own?

Honestly, it's hard to take any feedback seriously when some people can't get the most absolutely basic facts straight to begin with.

You are free to check my profile, but I did in fact max out Sevagoth, and my criticisms came precisely from the fact that when I tried to perform maneuvers with his Shadow, they simply did not work. Testing it in solo play worked, though not in public missions where I'd played him until then. I don't see why I would otherwise make that claim, nor where else I'd find it. While you are indeed correct that Sevagoth's Shadow can parkour and sprint, the rest of my suggestions I think still stand, and your personal attacks are unwarranted.

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I don't know if this is a bug or intentional design, but I find it highly annoying that while Sevagoth's Shadow passively earns affinity when using Sevagoth it doesn't work the other way. Any experience earned while in the Shadow form bypasses the frame completely. Not only does this feel counter intuitive IMO, it also feels like you're being punished for wanting to enjoy Sevagoth's full kit while leveling

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8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I have to agree with much of what the OP says: Sevagoth has a great theme and aesthetic, but virtually none of it feels properly utilized on his kit, and his Shadow in particular almost feels detrimental to use due to its limitations. There's a lot I'd want to do to change the frame, but the most basic improvements I'd like to see would include the following:

  • Increase the Shadow's base speed and allow it to sprint.
  • Let the Shadow fly unrestricted in any direction.
  • Let the Shadow ignore unit collision with enemies.

That way, the ghost form could properly feel like a ghost, instead of being constantly grounded and hamstrung by slow movement speed and a total lack of parkour.

I love all of this particularly the free movement in any direction and lack of collision.
I imagine the speed would be less of a detriment if Shadow could fly and do, ya know, ghost stuff!

Still, a bit more move speed would be nice!

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Thanks to your feedback here we have just put out a hotfix on PC with the following Sevagoth changes and fixes:

  • Increased Sevagoth’s Armor from 110 to 150.
  • Added functionality to now ‘Hold’ Sevagoth’s Reap on cast to speed up the Shadow by 2x.
  • Made improvements towards Sevagoth’s Reap movement to alleviate the Shadow becoming stuck in numerous situations. He may still get stuck in some cases, but his movement should be less jerky and should no longer try to dig his head into a wall.
  • Sevagoth’s Gloom now consumes 0.75 Energy per second (base) for each enemy within Glooms range up to a maximum of 10 enemies. Additional enemies in the radius will be slowed, but not increase the cost. Equip Efficiency Mods (Streamline, etc) to reduce!
  • Added custom sound when entering Sevagoth’ pre-death Tombstone. 
  • Fixed Sevagoth’s Shadow breaking Railjack Battle Mods icon and button callout. 
  • Fixed Sevagoth gaining permanent invisibility if temporary effect expires while in Shadow form.
  • Another fix towards Sevagoth not going into Shadow form after death if Sevagoth previously died in Archwing.
  • Fixed incorrect loadout showing when Mod Linking a loadout for Sevagoth's Shadow.
     

Consoles will be receiving this in the future! Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts about Sevagoth. 

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3 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Increased Sevagoth’s Armor from 110 to 150.

Yay. The more the merrier. I did feel like he was lacking just a bit in that department.

But I must ask, and I'm sorry to be pushy, but can we review Lavos a bit as well? I feel like he needed this sort of treatment more than Sevagoth, who ended up being quite good from the start. Not that I'm complaining about Seva's changes and fixes. Keep'em coming and thank you!

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4 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

I have to partially disagree, Sevagoth is a reasonably powerful Warframe. The two first abilities may need a bit more base damage, but works for filling the Death Well quick, Gloom is a really good ability even with the high energy drain and his Shadow, despite feeling a bit clunky, is powerful. Maybe not Steel Path worthy, but not everything can chew Steel Path easily (but I can see that he could with a few buffs).

The problem is that he cannot fill his Death Well on Steel Path, his abilities just dont do a damn thing (at 175 power strength anyway)
 

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2 hours ago, ebrl said:

.... did you even try? You didn't even try. If you had tried it you would know.....

Honestly, it's hard to take any feedback seriously when some people can't get the most absolutely basic facts straight to begin with.

 



And, you're right, it is hard to take you seriously.

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