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Update 30: Sevagoth + Epitaph Feedback Megathread (Closed)


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1 hour ago, Velaethia said:

It is the weapon of his shadow not Sevagoth

While I can understand that train of thought for lore reasons, Imma go with Dragazer on this one. As he or she said, you want Strength on his default form anyway. And that also means you can cache strength with Pax Charge and conditional mods like Growing Power and Energy Conversion. Meaning you only bother to stack all of those once before you cast his 4 to get that power strength value until you're out of his shadow form.

Can you elaborate on how would you go about making it so his claws take his Shadow mod values? For example, would you make his claws a channeled ability?

Edited by metvincent
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9 minutes ago, metvincent said:

Can you elaborate on how would you go about making it so his claws take his Shadow mod values? For example, would you make his Claws a channeled ability?

They take shadow mod values because it's physically on the shadow. The shadow is a semi independent entity. It's claws are ATTACHED to it's body. And shouldn't use Seva's stats for gimicky reasons. The 4 key doesn't create the shadow. It manifests it. I guess you could argue that Seva becomes immobile channeling it's strength into it's shadow but it still awkward. The claws are already arguably a channeled ability running off of soul well like baruuk's restraint and his weapons. Also idk how y'all able to give strength to Seva cuz he dies in 2 hits and unless it's 100% slow (impossible with gloom) you can still get hit, you get hit you die in one hit steel path. So need survive mods with his current set up. Survive and energy so you can live long enough and fuel energy into the soul well so you can stop getting one hit and use a real CC. 

Like can't max out gloom and have enough energy eff to keep gloom up 100% of the time which you'd need with A LOT of jumping around to survive in steel path without any survival mods. 

Edited by Velaethia
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4 hours ago, ColdCremator said:

If it has a slightly wider cone, it'd be better.

With a cone any wider than now, it will step into a very dangerous territory. It's a pretty potent pull ability with unprecedented range. My current unoptimized build has like 50 meters of range on this ability (which shadow obviously can afford since claws scale with wraithe's power), and it already feels so silly that i still can't believe DE approved such base range on it.

 

I think embrace is the only reason to use shadow, hands down. The only good thing about claws is a forced slash proc on heavy attacks, which paired with good mods and very decent (for an exalted) base stats make it scale pretty well, but after playing enough baruuk, their (claws') absolute lack of any range whatsoever is annoying the crap out of me. It feels fo bad to be forced into spaming pull as a crutch for his extremely low range, while baruuk just gets 20 meters of range and extremely big "waves" (that aren't actually waves) by default, and as a result doesn't need extra steps to wipe rooms. Two other abilities (dash/debuff) feel underwhelming as well, to the point that i absolutely forget they even exist (dash can sometimes be used as a mobility tool, but you already have parkour for this anyway).

  

3 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

also the heavy attack tends to miss even if you are almost hugging the enemy idk why.

He does a big "step" (lol) forward during the startup, which moves him past enemies. Nikanas have similar problem with their 1st heavy attack. The only way to solve it is for DE to extend heavy attack hitbox backwards during the move, so he'd hit everything behind him too, but i doubt it will happen.

 

Edited by GREF_TM
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While I do enjoy playing Sevagoth, I do have some problems with his current Kit:

  • His amor increase still does not feel like its enough, especailly in Pluto and Neptune RJ missions. I would increase his armor to 250, and add 100 Health to both him and his Shadow. This would help keep them alive longer in those missions and others.
  • I do like using Gloom, but I feel like its range is short for what it does. I would increase its max range to 20 meters, and change its synergy of "Enemies in range increase the Death well by 0.1%" to "Enemies killed in range increase the Death Well by 2%". Gloom is used to make enemies kill you slower, and combined with Sow or Reap they die a lot faster, so they don't really contribute to its current Synergy.
  • Sow and Reap are also pretty good to use. It would be nice if Reap could target enemies more accurately when cast, and Sow could not have the diminishing damage per second on range when its cast. Another synergy I would reccomend is that: Enemies affected by Gloom and have Reap or Sow cast on them further increase the lifesteal to 7%.
  • The Exalted shadow is actually pretty good on its own. One thing I would change however, is that during the Bleedout phase for Sevagoth, both Melee and ability kills contribute to reviving him. The Consume dash is a little wonky to use, especially in close quarters.
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2 hours ago, Velaethia said:

What? We're y'all getting that the new max it 15/s??? How in your universe does 10x 0.75 equal 15? I am incredibly confused.  It should cap out at 7.5/s base which is 25% better than before the change. Still prob could be better. It seems fine in levelling Hydron but Hydron is fairly low level and gives you a break every round to recoup energy that things like survival won't give. 

The 0.75 scales upwards over time.

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1 minute ago, Velaethia said:

They take shadow mod values because it's physically on the shadow. The shadow is a semi independent entity. It's claws are ATTACHED to it's body. And shouldn't use Seva's stats for gimicky reasons. The 4 key doesn't create the shadow. It manifests it. I guess you could argue that Seva becomes immobile channeling it's strength into it's shadow but it still awkward. The claws are already arguably a channeled ability running off of soul well like baruuk's restraint and his weapons. Also idk how y'all able to give strength to Seva cuz he dies in 2 hits and unless it's 100% slow (impossible with gloom) you can still get hit, you get hit you die in one hit steel path. So need survive mods with his current set up. Survive and energy so you can live long enough and fuel energy into the soul well so you can stop getting one hit and use a real CC. 

On his current state his claws don't use his shadow form energy, only his skills do on top of having a drain per second regardless of what you do. But that didn't answer what I asked you tbh. So again, what's your idea? Making it so his shadow form claws only take his shadow form Strength mods into account?

That aside, I wouldn't really say it's gimmicky reasons, but min maxing reasons. It's the same reason why some people do this on Chroma, as an example, meaning you do all the conditional stuff once, you cast Vex armor with a LOT of increased strength through conditionals like the ones I previously mentioned, and from then on you just need to keep it up. It's niche in some scenarios, full on meta on others.

The way I see it it's like you taking maxed Umbral Intensify over Transient Fortitude; even though both give you the same ammount of power strength. One has a downside, the other one doesn't. And back when we didn't have Umbral mods, we had Energy Conversion, which had the same kinda debate. The latter having a condition which, depending on loadout, can be super easy to achieve. And it doesn't take away your duration. Which in Sevagoth's case is kinda good to keep in mind to not tank it outright, which is why you're surely using Fleeting Expertise paired with Primed Continuity or a combination of Augur Message/Continuity/Constitution. All of his skills have pretty low base duration aside from his shadow form that's not affected by it (Gloom energy drain is also affected by duration, so much so that pre yesterday's nerf you were able to straight up mod for 155% duration and 100% efficiency and it'd have about the same energy drain as if you ran 160% eff & 95% dur).

To be fair I don't like conditional mods like the ones I mentioned above either. The same way I never used Argon Scope back when it was sought after, and made irrelevant due to rivens later on. And on most of the builds I enjoyed playing on him, I never min maxed Gloom's slow. To be precise: one build has 50% slow (which feels the worst for obvious reasons comparatively speaking), and the other four builds run on somewhere around 75% slow on Gloom.

Onto the survival part, I feel this would be a completely different debate, but I'll give you my two cents regardless. Past a certain threshold in Steel Path any enemy will one shot you regardless what you do, and no ammount of armor nor health will save you from that (which is an issue I see on Sevagoth's kit NGL). That's why you surely have seen so many builds out there abusing the hell out of shield gating and Rolling Guard. But for a short hour run on endless SP you can rely on armor and health just fine, so long as you also fit some dmg reduction in there (Adaptation for the most part, but I've even tried Aerodynamic+Aviator and it worked hilariously well, albeit forcing him to a completely different playstyle by having to stay off the ground all the time to get that 76% dmg reduction). It's the same reason why a slow doesn't cut it compared to hard CC. Even with a 95% slow, any two stray shots that 40+ enemies in range manage to land on you past shield gating will blast you to smitherens.

It's actually the same argument we've been in the past with Xaku, with them having up to 75% dodge chance. Meaning there's a 25% chance any shot will kill you outright on a long SP run. And tbh Xaku still had it worse, since they don't even get to stack Adaptation to begin with because they're avoiding most shots - but not AOE lingering patches, like Scorches/Hyekka Masters, Noxes toxin clouds on death, Mutalists Ospreys toxin clouds and so on.

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5 minutes ago, metvincent said:

Onto the survival part, I feel this would be a completely different debate, but I'll give you my two cents regardless. Past a certain threshold in Steel Path any enemy will one shot you regardless what you do, and no ammount of armor nor health will save you from that (which is an issue I see on Sevagoth's kit NGL). That's why you surely have seen so many builds out there abusing the hell out of shield gating and Rolling Guard. But for a short hour run on endless SP you can rely on armor and health just fine, so long as you also fit some dmg reduction in there (Adaptation for the most part, but I've even tried Aerodynamic+Aviator and it worked hilariously well, albeit forcing him to a completely different playstyle by having to stay off the ground all the time to get that 76% dmg reduction). It's the same reason why a slow doesn't cut it compared to hard CC. Even with a 95% slow, any two stray shots that 40+ enemies in range manage to land on you past shield gating will blast you to smitherens.

I'd honestly rather anything but a slow. Slow is one of the worst forms of CC in the game and in some cases can actually make things worst... The insane base range on Nova made everyone hate me whenever I played her with anything but negative strength. I even ran a negative range and it was still slowing thing halfway across the room which is annoying in defense. it'd be better if it was a disarming aura, a stun aura, sleep aura, damage reduction. All of those are considerably more useful. Enemies don't hurt each other like they hurt us. But mind control from Rev, Nyx, or Xaku are super useful because while their damage is kinda blah it keeps them from attacking you constantly plus they can body block attacks from other enemies who didn't get mind controlled. Not saying it should be a mind control but a slow is kind of weak cc and I am fortunate it's range isn't as insane as Nova's slow or I wouldn't be able to play him in groups. Now a slow of 90-95% is pretty strong and virtually a stun but all it takes at high level is one shot to get off and you die. Though with his passive that helps mitigate things like that happening. But it's ridiculously hard to get maxed out slow on gloom and requires sacrificing everything else. Including the energy needed to sustain gloom. Because gloom is our main survival tool outside of our passive we need it up 24/7 or we WILL die. Which is why in my earlier posts suggested increasing the base slow by a bit. 40-50% would be somewhat better. 80% slow at 200% ability strength would be tolerable. Still requires a lot of jumping and map awareness. Now shadow has hard CC I love embrace but in steel path things take forever to die and being squishy makes it so damn hard to even activate. Also while the passive is nice to stop dying as I said it's a pain to use properly and it's almost impossible to clear objectives and with how fast they die in steel path all it takes is two passives for a mobile defense objective to die. 

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9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Thanks for posting this. I've been using Sevagoth in Steel Path as well and I've had no issues. The person you quoted is either trolling or has no idea what they are talking about.

Basically he put 15 formas on him, he doesn't even understand how to do a build

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Please let Reap's Shadow pull some aggro from AI (even if just the enemies it passed by) to make use of its different flight speeds. Watching my Shadow circle around my reticle while doing nothing productive, since enemies only get damaged and marked once by Reap, is disheartening.

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9 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Please let Reap's Shadow pull some aggro from AI (even if just the enemies it passed by) to make use of its different flight speeds. Watching my Shadow circle around my reticle while doing nothing productive, since enemies only get damaged and marked once by Reap, is disheartening.

Would be more usefull cc than gloom tbph >_>...

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2 hours ago, Velaethia said:

I'd honestly rather anything but a slow.

Couldn't agree more with you on that. I'll take hard CC over soft CC any day of the week. Everytime.

 

2 hours ago, Velaethia said:

I even ran a negative range and it was still slowing thing halfway across the room which is annoying in defense.

Ah, that's because Nova's Molecular Prime's expanding range scales with duration too. It's why most Slowvas tank duration outright. Also why Speedva has a bit of a harder time staying alive, because you need to slap in Overextended to tank Strength, so your NullStar charges tend to fly off a lot more compared to having negative range (which is somewhat fixable by Molecular Fission, but you still need to keep track of nullstar charges a lot more often compared to Slowva)

I don't like Sevagoth's Shadow, at all. As someone else said a couple pages ago, his shadow feels less like an angry ghost and more like a floating mop (+1 @BRZZAFK 🤣 Spot on!). It was the first skill I thought of subsuming out of his kit when I tested him out. And most of the time I mod his Shadow as an infinite revive tool, meaning full on tank. It's also riddled with bugs. Found out through testing two days ago his shadow doesn't get any of focus schools passives, which can affect a plethora of things, but most importantly the damage scaling on his claws through either Naramon or Zenurik, depending on Claw build.

Edited by metvincent
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1 minute ago, metvincent said:

I don't like Sevagoth's Shadow, at all. As someone else said a couple pages ago, his shadow feels less like an angry ghost and more like a flating mop (+1 @BRZZAFK 🤣 Spot on!). It was the first skill I thought of subsuming out of his kit when I tested him out. And most of the time I mod his Shadow as an infinite revive tool, meaning full on tank. It's also riddled with bugs. Found out through testing two days ago his shadow doesn't get any of focus schools passives, which can affect a plethora of things, but most importantly the damage scaling on his claws through either Naramon or Zenurik, depending on Claw build.

His shadow and him being literally 2 frames in one is the reason I love him so much. He is more along the lines of what I was hoping for with Khora. Before I got horribly disapointed finding out she was a regular frame with an ignorable travelling dot effect. Rather than being a key component of how she functions. Where you could take control of Vennari directly or fuse them into one entity for special abilities. Instead she's spider mom with a pet cat for some reason. Feels like two frames forced together. She's fun but not what I was expecting/wanting. Sevagoth more or less fufills that fantasy much better than Khora. He still a WIP and I hope they haven't given up on fixing him. But he fits my kinda playstyle in theory so well. I just want him to preform well in all content so I can actually use the frame who fits me.

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24 minutes ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Basically he put 15 formas on him, he doesn't even understand how to do a build

Only Main form?!

1 hour ago, GREF_TM said:

He does a big "step" (lol) forward during the startup, which moves him past enemies. Nikanas have similar problem with their 1st heavy attack. The only way to solve it is for DE to extend heavy attack hitbox backwards during the move, so he'd hit everything behind him too, but i doubt it will happen.

Both heavy attacks should start hitting as soon as it finished "charging".

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48 minutes ago, Velaethia said:

His shadow and him being literally 2 frames in one is the reason I love him so much. He is more along the lines of what I was hoping for with Khora. Before I got horribly disapointed finding out she was a regular frame with an ignorable travelling dot effect. Rather than being a key component of how she functions. Where you could take control of Vennari directly or fuse them into one entity for special abilities. Instead she's spider mom with a pet cat for some reason. Feels like two frames forced together. She's fun but not what I was expecting/wanting. Sevagoth more or less fufills that fantasy much better than Khora. He still a WIP and I hope they haven't given up on fixing him. But he fits my kinda playstyle in theory so well. I just want him to preform well in all content so I can actually use the frame who fits me.

Yeah, Venari has always been useless and the prime candidate for subsuming out ever since the Helminth system was released... really sucks, since Venari was supposed to be part of Khora's identity.

I've really been enjoying playing with Sevagoth despite his horrid energy drain on Gloom, both pre and post hotfix. I've always played every character that has a form change within their kit. For me that just always meant more abilities, which is literally that in most cases. Druid on Diablo 2 LOD, Nidalee, Elise, Jayce on LoL, the DMC series, install type of characters on fighting games, you get the idea. I'll main them all. But Sevagoth's shadow feels so clunky to use and is so filled with bugs on its current state I'd rather just not play with it.

Lemme go over a bit onto the focus schools thing and why it's so important despite no one mentioning it aside me:

Naramon's Power Spike lets you keep your combo duration, no need to explain why keeping the combo at x12 and not dropping all the way back to 0 if for some reason you don't melee any enemy in 11 seconds (Swift Momentum) while moving across rooms is a huge DPS loss . And Zenurik's Inner Might lets you slap in Focus Charge to get 90% heavy melee efficiency and mod its claws for a hybrid combo efficiency build, which is way more damaging than anything we can do with him right now even thought you're forced to mod for corrosive instead of viral (you can still do that with Reflex Coil + Focus Charge, but slotting the former is a straight DPS loss). Fixing that would help a lot of his scaling issues on long SP runs.

Why no one besides me is asking for this to be fixed is beyond me. Not to mention Vazarin's instant revives passive, or any other potential passives his shadow might not be getting outside of the ones from focus schools. Ever tried testing him at the simulacrum? His shadow goes vulnerable as you cast it even through having the immune option ticked on.

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Sevagoth:

First: A script bug I keep getting as Sevagoth: If I let the shadow's meter run out instead of manually returning to Sev, the game bugs out and starts shooting me upwards into the ceiling for a minute or so, before finally dropping me to the ground, sometimes with all abilities locked up.

Second: The shadow cast by his 1st ability can't traverse little ledges. I don't know how it can even get up stairs, because normally little ledges the height of a single stair step are enough to stop it. Also it does not go up, down, or even try to track enemies. It's so dumb, dumbfire rockets could probably beat it in an IQ test.

Lastly:

The Exalted shadow is very slow, and its melee animations are incredibly stiff and are not mixing properly. If you're moving forward and attack, no melee animation plays at all, however if you release forward movement the moment you attack, you get to see the actual forward movement melee animation that was intended to be played while you're moving forward.

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Hey,

i´m unable to switch polarities on Sevagoth´s Shadow. To be clear, i´m talking about the specific feature to switch the order of polarities in the mod screen. Every time i try i get a message saying: "Your account has not been charged, please try again later." 

 

Hope this gets fixed soon. 

 

greetings r0ckwolf

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I would like to share my thought on the Forma lathered frame, Sevagoth. 

Passive

Make it so that Sevagoth gains benefits of having the Death Well full, e.g. empower his abilities.

For example, casting Sow at 100%, causes Sow to increase in lethality.

Reap

Make it so the Reap and Sow combo is more potent or at least visible. 

Add the Death's Harvest DoT that it mentions in the tooltip, or remove it. 

2nd Ability: Sow

Add recast  and remove drop off. 

3rd Ability: Gloom:

Increase base slow to 40%, makes reaching the max slow cap a little easier. 

 

Shadow 

Claws:

Have the claws base damage be based off of the Shadow's Power Strength, not Sevagoth's.

Increased their base range. 

Embrace

Fine as is, just make the pull faster

Consume

Change the ability from being a targeted dash to a controllable dash, similar to Lavos, where the dash is based on Range. 

Death's Harvest

Reduce energy cost to 50. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Velaethia said:

Shadow's Claw should base their attack on Shadow's ability strength NOT Sevagoth.

Damage scaling with a main frame allows to put all the range mods for the only good ability shadow has (embrace) without losing said damage. This change will be detrimental, hard disagree.

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  • TYPE: In-Game; Xbox One (bug may be on other platforms)
  • DESCRIPTION: Attempted to swap around polarized slots on Sevagoth’s Shadow. When I selected Apply, an error message appeared saying “Reconfiguration could not be completed. Your account has not been charged. Please try again later.” The polarized slot was NOT swapped.
  • REPRODUCTION: Use “Swap Polarity”, attempt to swap a polarized slot, confirm, and then error message occurs.
  • EXPECTED RESULT: The selected polarized slot should have been moved to the confirmed location.
  • OBSERVED RESULT: Error message pops up as described above and slot is not swapped.
  • REPRODUCTION RATE: 100%; Anytime you attempt to swap any polarized slot on Sevagoth’s Shadow with a valid swappable location.
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4 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

With a cone any wider than now, it will step into a very dangerous territory. It's a pretty potent pull ability with unprecedented range

It has an 80 degree cone according to the wiki, and in practice I've had to make double pulls cuz some enemies were just outside the width. The bump up I was thinking of was simply going up to 90 degrees, but as you said, it is indeed quite potent as is and honestly doesn't need to change. I would prefer fixing Consume's jank much more than a probably unnecessary buff to Embrace.

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Previously my Gloom drain was 1.2/s-2.5/s (still don't know why is there and increase-over-time), now it is 0.19-0.38... and with 10 enemies it will go up to 3.8/s.... clearly it is more from the previous 2.5/s. I'm sorry to say, how is someone still unable to do their job right after 8 years???

BUG: Amalgam Organ Shatter cannot be used on Shadow's Claws?!?!

Edited by kyori
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2 hours ago, ColdCremator said:

It has an 80 degree cone according to the wiki, and in practice I've had to make double pulls cuz some enemies were just outside the width.

With how far back (and up!) the camera stays, it's easy to miscalculate it - depending on where you are looking at (the "natural" positioning will probably have you looking slightly downwards, to not get your sight blocked by the shadow itself) about 50% of your screen is behind and to the sides of the shadow. Atlas' Petrify is a 60 degree cone and is already very generous, the difference is that the regular camera angle doesn't even show much that's not directly in front of you.

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Sevagoth is a good warframe in concept but has problems in it's execution. 

Gloom is a nice way to keep the Warframe alive even in Steel Path missions but was balanced for endgame play.  As such it drains newly crafted Sevagoth's energy pool far too quickly.  Forcing players to add the flow mod and some efficiency just to be able to cast even one ability before Gloom drinks all the energy.  But I don't see this as that much of a flaw with Gloom as with the right build this ability helps carry the melee Sevagoth build. 

Reap is another good skill.  The fact that the shadow always attempts to path find to the aimed target when iron sighting is good but what makes it fantastic is the damage amplification debuff he gives.  This skill also makes it so that Sevagoth isn't just a melee warframe.  He still has ranged options which is nice.

Sow however has issues.  The damage is only really effective against low level enemies.   The skill has a use, which is to build up power for the shadow.  But that is it.  Now people will point out that the "reap what you sow" combo is good.  Which I would debate. It can melt lvl 100 enemies in the simulacrum but has issues when attempting the same thing in a real mission.  Partly due to the fact that Sow needs you to be close to the enemies to affect them but Reap works better at longer range. But mostly because the ranged explosion will prevent any other character hit from triggering this combo. 

 

Sevagoth's shadow however is where the real problems come into play.

Embrace is downright fun with it works.  Watching a horde of enemies floating towards you about to be blended will always be funny to me.  A few edge cases need to be ironed out but I don't see a need to fix this. 

Death's harvest isn't that bad.  The damage buff is good and the duration is just enough to be able to chew through hard targets.  But it does feel underwhelming because you don't know if the effect is ongoing or not.  If there was a better visual element tied to this ability then I would find it much better but so far it completely meh.

Consume however is the weakest part of Sevagoth.  It combines the worst aspects of Revenant's Reave and then tries to make it the core skill of the kit.  Not only is it used to keep the shadow alive when you switch to it, due to the life steal element.  It is the ONLY attack when the passive is active.  This causes the player to zip around the area getting the camera stuck and falling off any edge in a 200 meter area around you.  And the worst part is that you can have it zip through a whole group of enemies and only get 1 target; when the game is feeling cooperative with you. Chances are you will zip over their heads due to a slight change in elevation, bounce off the enemy or somehow manage to find the nearest edge.

The fact it can only hit one target was bad.  The fact it flings you in a line is bad.  The fact that it is your only attack during the passive is REALLY bad.  This skill is quite literally the poor man's Reave in every sense of the term.   It hits less people.  Heals less and is harder to control.  If I was to rework this skill I would turn it into a leap skill where you can hold the button to target where you would land and hit everyone with an AOE.  But since reworking it is much harder I would suggest taking some pages from Reave and have it hug the ground, pass through enemies (hitting them all) and shorten the range.  Ideally I would suggest having it just copy Reap but have the player control it instead.

Now that being said I am having fun with Sevagoth.  Which is good because it ate through 1 umbra forma, 1 aura forma and 16 normal forma.  And when the problems with Consume is fixed then I will love him all the more.  Sevagoth was a nice addition to the game and I thank everyone who worked on it and hope they get around to fixing the issues with this warframe so it can really shine.

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  • [DE]Danielle changed the title to Update 30: Sevagoth + Epitaph Feedback Megathread (Closed)
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