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Update 30: Sevagoth + Epitaph Feedback Megathread (Closed)


[DE]CoreyOnline

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9 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

You seem to be under the false belief that i said reap is bad. I did not. This is what i mean about your remark being incorrect.

Being the one chosen for subsume does not mean it is bad. It is just the most appropriate for my build.

 

All of the abilities work fine and if there are no changes sevagoth would still be a great mid to above average frame.

I did directly ask if you had found any viable use for his first ability in high level content. Or in the debuff from his two which is the actual ability. This thread or indeed this conversation has never been about your build and has always been about the abilities. If you have found a good use for his first ability that doesn’t leave you wide open as you direct his shadow, I would appreciate hearing it so that I can give it a shot. If not, maybe just maybe the ability isn’t working well. And that’s ok, if it’s not DE wants to know. 
 

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On 2021-04-14 at 2:36 PM, TheMightyDungeonMaster said:

 I tested him on: Steelpath kuva/corrupted/corpus survival/defense/disruption with a few of my buddies - one of them using mesa prime (i managed to out-damage him with Sevagoth) - and a few star chart / kuva lich missions + sanctuary onslaught. Again - you should not rely on base stats when it comes to looking at his survivability. His slow doesn't affect how much damage an enemy deals yes - but by my experience, it seems the AI  doesn't know how to deal with it, whiffing shots, taking their sweet time shooting and such - and consider that you wont simply be standing still, only modding for health, unless thats the type of game you want to play. 

 You shouldn't only rely on your abilities to build up meter, that is simply not a thing. As a plus, combining panzer vulpaphylla with him + cedo can make his DOT + reap a deadly combination on sub 200 steelpath trashmobs - but you shouldn't look at it as your main damage source. Your main source of DPS is the reaper form, that takes a total of 2 ~ second to build up if you have played this game for any amount of time - not only that, can be sustained for great periods of time - and be rebuilt in an instant. No enemy can possibly reliably survive the reaper form from my experience, even when levels start getting crazy, he simply shreds them without any effort with its consistent damage output, if you pull enemies towards your gloom aura, their ragdoll is affected by the slow, meaning all enemies within this area at that moment are completely docile, unable to attack or do anything - and at this point it is simply way too late. 

 Complaints such as slow being disruptive to others gameplay is simply etiquette, and i do wish it was line of sight on sevagoth for convenience, during defense missions, you can easily disable gloom, and rely on 1 - 2 to quickly build meter with the right build, or even do quick casts of it if necessary. But i think that sevagoth's biggest weakness is how much investment you need to get him to a point that i feel like hes in equal footing to frames like nidus, or in a point he feels very powerful, 15 forma average is dumb, and should have some sort of work around. 

 Plus, i dont think i'd be against a buff to Sow and Reap - but im mostly saying what im saying knowing DE's perspective on game balance and how afraid they are on improving things statistically - so in my perspective the positive case scenario is that they simply do not touch Sevagoth, instead doing a knee-jerk Nerf.

There are several issues I have with the ghost actually that make me not like it. First, when you're in the ghost form, you lose all the melee counter you built up when its timer runs out. Even Naramon doesn't prevent it like it's suppose to (Tested it in the simulacrum). The claws are okay, but not that amazing. They can't use Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds which makes them significantly worse than pretty much any typical melee weapon. Further, as to his clutch bleed out, you have to place Undying Will on Sevogoth himself to improve the time you have while in the ghost form to gather souls. This clutch save wouldn't be so bad if I could put Undying Will on the ghost instead and not strain an already full build. And if there's not enough enemies around, you're SOL.

Further, there needs to be more interaction between the Ghost and Sevogoth's Gloom. Gloom is suppose to siphon life force for the ghost's well. Then, it should replenish the well too while in ghost form so long as enemies are inside it. But the well doesn't seem to drain any slower whether there are enemies in Gloom or not. If the ghost is meant to be a significant part of his ability to survive, then means of replenishing the well while in that form should also exist to prolong it. Otherwise we're again back to the issues of how fragile his base form is.

And I agree, slow needs to be changed. Slow is a head ache in certain popular missions. I've made a suggestion for changing it to a new form of damage management that the game hasn't seen before known as damage spreading. Essentially you would take a percentage of damage you receive up front, and the rest would be stored and dealt to you as a DOT. I got the concept from Danse Macabre, which redirects damage back at enemies, but doesn't deal it all at once, and instead slowly deals the damage back until the indicator reaches 0. It would be a lot easier to heal through a DOT with his low life steal ability, especially since DOTs allow for better interactions with mods and Arcanes like Adaptation, Arcane Guardian, Aegis, Grace, etc.

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So, since Gloom continues to drain energy while in the shadow form, I think the shadow's abilities shouldn't use energy at all. Its energy pool is low, even lower than Sevogoth's, so the abilities are even more burdensome, and it means he consumes energy drops that Sevogoth really needs to maintain Gloom.

Instead, energy drops should go to Sevogoth while in his ghost form, so that when you return, you're not looking at an energy pool that's nearly empty if not empty already, because Gloom is still being channeled.

"Well just turn Gloom off before going ghost" The issue here is that Gloom costs energy to recast and takes a while then to return to its max size again, which in that time, you're getting wailed in the face by enemies that aren't being slowed.

 

Further, Naramon school is not affecting his claws properly. When the timer runs out, he loses ALL his combo counter.

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34 minutes ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

I did directly ask if you had found any viable use for his first ability in high level content. Or in the debuff from his two which is the actual ability. This thread or indeed this conversation has never been about your build and has always been about the abilities. If you have found a good use for his first ability that doesn’t leave you wide open as you direct his shadow, I would appreciate hearing it so that I can give it a shot. If not, maybe just maybe the ability isn’t working well. And that’s ok, if it’s not DE wants to know. 
 

I gave my build as an example of what I've done to enjoy his kit but I haven't explored reap enough to build something that uses it extensively. In my opinion the synergy between 1 and 2 could potentially make for some useful caster DPS builds but it has only been a day since release and I've only really dug into gloom+sow and primary focus on the shadow. 

Thanks for clarifying, by the way. I believe I may have been confused as to why you were asking about reap. Sorry if I misunderstood.

IMO Gloom is so useful that it really dominates the rest of the kit. Being his helminth ability, as well, it is simply too good to pass up if you are able to sustain the large energy cost (ember I'm looking at you). 

1+2 combo doesn't compete with gloom IMO but that isn't to say it is a bad combo. Gloom is just very very good. It is like wisp's resevoirs. Really hard to imagine building sevagoth without using gloom (right now, anyway. Like I said I haven't invested near enough time to evaluate alternative builds). 

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46 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

Further, Naramon school is not affecting his claws properly. When the timer runs out, he loses ALL his combo counter.

But he can't use Weeping Wounds or Blood Rush. Is the combo meter really useful for him?

I guess a heavy attack build could be useful but that wind up isn't great

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1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

But he can't use Weeping Wounds or Blood Rush. Is the combo meter really useful for him?

I guess a heavy attack build could be useful but that wind up is so bad...

IMO, the claws should be able to use Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush. But beyond those mods, combo counter also works with Gladiator mods, and it improves damage. So, yeah, still need Naramon to work properly.

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1 minute ago, xZeromusx said:

Sorry, I'm thinking of its improvement on warframe abilities. No, it doesn't directly improve weapon damage. But still, it does improve damage out put with Gladiator Mods.

It might impact the shadow's 2. Really hard to say tbh.

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3 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

It might impact the shadow's 2. Really hard to say tbh.

More testing is required. However, this still doesn't explain why these are the only exalted weapons in the game that aren't affected by Naramon. Excal's blade is properly affected. Although, the annoying part of Excal's blade is that you lose all combo when you deactivate the ability rather than it degrading in the background like normal melee weapons do.

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The stance animation for Sevagoth's shadow claws has a strange feeling of delay to it, i. e. melee doesn't feel responsive, because it's still doing the stance animation from the previous attack. So all that twisting and swirling for one combo attack takes too much time. Also, the claws are huge, but feel not more like a dagger in range. 

And the claws hang idle beside the torso when meleeing and sprinting as Sevagoth's shadow (visual bug).

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5 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

More testing is required. However, this still doesn't explain why these are the only exalted weapons in the game that aren't affected by Naramon. Excal's blade is properly affected. Although, the annoying part of Excal's blade is that you lose all combo when you deactivate the ability rather than it degrading in the background like normal melee weapons do.

Yeah it sounds like a bug for sure

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Sevagoth is pretty solid, but there are some minor issues that needs to be addressed.

  • His shadow form feels pretty slow, It would be nice for the shadow to have a slightly increased parkour speed and faster sprint speed.
  • His claws feels slow and unresponsive. Would you mind decreasing the base delay and bump the base animation speed a little bit?
  • Sow needs Reap to function properly, can the AoE effect of sow be triggered when a target infected with Sow is killed? Right now if you replace reap, sow will become useless.
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8 hours ago, ThatsSoWitty said:

I should clarify by "videos of his damage" I meant there is a video of Brozime surviving with Sevagoth just fine. Steel Path is a horrendous benchmark because it isn't probable or applicable for most of Warframe's player base or gameplay but if you find the need to use it to evaluate your builds, there is enough content to show that he is viable above and beyond anything on the starchart. Level 80 enemies also exceed what is available on most of the starchart and is where arbitrations start off - I would feel comfortable bringing him into arbitrations with just an aura forma and I fully expect him to function great on Steel Path (which suffers from so many issues stemming from rewards and respect of time and difficulty in relationship to the rewards, it isn't something I find any value in since the nerf with Deimos Arcana). 

Gloom is his form of survivability and if you think he is too reliant on it, there are plenty of options from Helminth at our disposal that you can replace Sow or his other abilities to your liking with. You could run something like Dispensary if you don't want to run Fleeting Expertise or Well of Life to give him more healing or even Warcry for more armor and attack speed. Having one mod out of eight being suggested hardly hurts build diversity when there are plenty of frames that require you to run every mod that raises a stat to maximize it (think Nova and duration, Xaku and range, etc.).

I honestly do feel like the issue for most people is how they are building him and they confuse what they think of as lackluster abilities or over reliance on Gloom for actually needing to adjust their builds and playstyles. I wouldn't be opposed to them buffing his survivability across the board but he's nowhere near bad, useless, or in need of any real ability changes at this time.

 

Steel path should be accessible for anyone and every warframe should do well in it. Even if he copes in steel path there should be some incentive to pick him over others. I'd imagine he was meant to be like Inaros or Nidus. So maybe not the beast damage but workable damage in steel path and literally never die ever unless you just afk. But like I die with him at level 80 or less stuff. Yeah sure you could forcibly make anything work but it should'nt need to be forced ya know? 

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3 hours ago, (PSN)SuicidalCivie said:

Sevagoths passive can be more a handicap than a skill. If I need to free / revive a hostage on a timer I really would wish to be able to just use up one of my revives and be back in the game. Don’t remember if Inaros also is barred from regular reviving when he is using his version of the tombstone, but both should get to choose instant revive as an option.

Pretty sure you can rez a downed hostage or teammate while in his passive. I know you can interact with the life support in survival. 

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2 hours ago, Alukard661 said:

As for me, my way to test new warframe's capabilities is to throw him right to steel path survival (draco, to be precise) at rank zero with basic set of mods, and level it up to rank 20 (with mission bonus it will be rank 30). If warframe survives the challenge, i can consider it a strong and useful one. Reworked Zephyr survived that, Wukong did as well. Khora made it with several deaths, but she did. Sevagoth, on the other side - failed completely.

He has almost no survivability - no high armor/health stats, nor abilities to compensate that, such as invisibility, or damage reduction. All he has right now is his third ability that gives him CC and lifesteal, but that's it. And even his third's energy consumption is too high to be active at all times. When you out of energy - you will be knocked out almost instantly. His first and second, as for me - almost useless. You can deal some damage with them, but thats not nearly enough to match with high level enemies on steel path.

Passive suffers the same problem as one of Inaros - on high level enemies you won't be able to make enough kills before timer runs out, which automatically makes it useless as well.

Good warframe consists of four main qualities+ two optional. First four is Damage, Tank, CC and Nuke. Second two are Invisibility and Healing. There are some warframes that qualifies in 5 out of 6 (Loki / Wukong). There are many warframes that has all four main qualities (Reworked Zephyr / Gara). Sevagoth roughly has only one. But instead he has his shiny exalted ult! But as any exalted ultimates right now - it is also useless. Shadow just doesn't have enough damage dealing potential to be effective in high level content. Just as ALL other exalted weaponry. Relying on shadow in high level survival is pointless - or you will run out of life support (and you have no damage to replenish it by killing enemies), or you will be simply torn to shreds by incoming damage.

Here some of my vision on how to make this warframe better:

1) Get rid of the Exalted Shadow. Buff his second to the point it can be considered good CC/Nuke ult. Place it instead of shadow.

2) In free second slot place some invisibility skill. Maybe with some additional CC/Damage Reduction.

3) Buff his stats, mainly health/armor and energy pool.

4) Repurpose Well of Souls to buff his stats proportionally to it's level. And also make it a fuel for new ultimate - Higher the meter, higher the effects of the ultimate, but it will consume Well of Souls meter along with energy bar.

5 )Optionally, replace his third with something like Vauban's vortex (or Black Hole from the original concept) with added lifesteal.

In conclusion, Sevagoth right now is rather useless generic frame with almost no applications in actual game, and can only be used as a mastery rank xp source and food for helminth. And i look forward to it's rework.

 

Exalted Shadow is the only thing that make shim interesting. Getting rid of it isn't a solution. Making exalted weapons better then regular weapons consistently is much better and would benefit multiple frames. But taking away exalted shadow would make him boring. More effective, but boring. If you don't want exalted shadow you can replace it with helmnith. But it's the only reason I play him. Because despite being in a bad position right now it makes him fun/interesting/unique. Getting rid of exalted shadow means they might as well remove him completely for me. I'd ask for a refund. Because that is why I bought him. I had hoped with a new exalted weapon in awhile they'd fix the issues with them. I was sadly disappointed but I still think his current kit is fine in theory. He needs buffs on his core stats so his life steal is actually useful. Exalted shadow needs to do more damage than any regular melee weapon can when fully modded especially with multiple forma's. 

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1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

I gave my build as an example of what I've done to enjoy his kit but I haven't explored reap enough to build something that uses it extensively. In my opinion the synergy between 1 and 2 could potentially make for some useful caster DPS builds but it has only been a day since release and I've only really dug into gloom+sow and primary focus on the shadow. 

Thanks for clarifying, by the way. I believe I may have been confused as to why you were asking about reap. Sorry if I misunderstood.

IMO Gloom is so useful that it really dominates the rest of the kit. Being his helminth ability, as well, it is simply too good to pass up if you are able to sustain the large energy cost (ember I'm looking at you). 

1+2 combo doesn't compete with gloom IMO but that isn't to say it is a bad combo. Gloom is just very very good. It is like wisp's resevoirs. Really hard to imagine building sevagoth without using gloom (right now, anyway. Like I said I haven't invested near enough time to evaluate alternative builds). 

With 309% power strength and 10 viral stacks it is possible to 3 to 4 shot a standard 130 armored enemy. However, you must have gloom active to survive. And there is the catch. Well, one of the catches. The first catch is that you must use blind rage and transient fortitude but you also need gloom which means you still need range, efficiency and duration. But you can’t have it all. which left me with 145% range 135%efficiency and 67% duration
The other catch is that I had to have 10 viral stacks quadruple the damage of the attack to take out the enemy in three hits. That’s not steel path. And that doesn’t bode well for energy consumption or its ability to scale. I think the first two abilities need a definitive buff. Max power strength and 10 viral stacks and 3 casts plus sow shouldn’t be necessary for level 100 enemies. Especially when weapon with that amount of viral proc would one shot.
 

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3 minutes ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

With 333% power strength and 10 viral stacks it is possible to 3 shot a standard 130 armored enemy. However, you must have gloom active to survive. And there is the catch. Well, one of the catches. The first catch is that you must use blind rage and transient fortitude but you also need gloom which means you still need range, efficiency and duration. But you can’t have it all. which left me with 145% range 135%efficiency and 67% duration
The other catch is that I had to have 10 viral stacks quadruple the damage of the attack to take out the enemy in three hits. That’s not steel path. And that doesn’t bode well for energy consumption or its ability to scale. I think the first two abilities need a definitive buff. Max power strength and 10 viral stacks and 3 casts plus sow shouldn’t be necessary for level 100 enemies. Especially when weapon with that amount of viral proc would one shot.
 

To be fair though, we are talking about a slot 1 ability. 

How many casts from ember, frost, volt, and oberon would it take to drop that same unit? Essentially I see Reap as a sort of projectile damage ability similar to what these frames use. Maybe that's the wrong way to look at reap though. 

There are some frames with powerful slot 1 abilities but I think they are the exception to the norm.

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10 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

To be fair though, we are talking about a slot 1 ability. 

How many casts from ember, frost, volt, and oberon would it take to drop that same unit? Essentially I see Reap as a sort of projectile damage ability similar to what these frames use. Maybe that's the wrong way to look at reap though. 

There are some frames with powerful slot 1 abilities but I think they are the exception to the norm.

except his 1 is the only one that does decent damage... so that'd be like if ember's one was their best damage and it still functions as is. 

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1 minute ago, Velaethia said:

except his 1 is the only one that does decent damage... so that'd be like if ember's one was their best damage and it still functions as is. 

You don't include his 4 and the shadow's abilities when you are considering his kit?

I mean...

Ember's night form has no damage abilities... Do you judge her based solely on night form or do you look at both forms?

 

I'd say Sevagoth's design appears to be heavily:

Sevagoth: CC and Defensive abilities
Shadow: Damage and Debuff

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