Update 30: Sevagoth + Epitaph Feedback Megathread (Closed)

[(PSN)KBDUltimateNin]

19 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

To be fair though, we are talking about a slot 1 ability. 

How many casts from ember, frost, volt, and oberon would it take to drop that same unit? Essentially I see Reap as a sort of projectile damage ability similar to what these frames use. Maybe that's the wrong way to look at reap though. 

There are some frames with powerful slot 1 abilities but I think they are the exception to the norm.

We are talking about a slot one ability but he really only has 3 and his shadow has 3 their fourth abilities let’s you switch forms but both forms should be viable.  The frames who tend to have poorer first abilities seem to be older frames. given that it also the only damage dealing part of his kit as savagoth it feels like it does a poor job in uniting his kit. The ability should be able to help fill his death well. It should be able to kill because gloom isn’t and sow isn’t. Which leaves his base form  feeling like it’s missing something in terms of first and second abilities.and it makes the synergy between reap and sow feel useless. Don’t get me wrong charging the death well is good, I would just want the ability to do something meaningful besides charging the death well

[Velaethia]

10 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

You don't include his 4 and the shadow's abilities when you are considering his kit?

I mean...

Ember's night form has no damage abilities... Do you judge her based solely on night form or do you look at both forms?

 

I'd say Sevagoth's design appears to be heavily:

Sevagoth: CC and Defensive abilities
Shadow: Damage and Debuff

Well since his 4 is an exalted weapon it's literally better to use a regular melee weapon. Literally only use his 4 to apply it's 3 and then go back and nuke with real melee.  Obviously I don't want to scrap exalted shadow but efficacy wise it'd be better if his 4 was just shadow's 3. 

Also you mean equinox not ember right? Equinox night form has hella cc. That sev/shadow lack. 

Sevagoth CC and Defensive 

Shadow Damage and Debuff. 

Yes I agree I want it to be like this. But currently Shadow doesn't do enough damage. 

[GalvatronMurder]

Sevagoth 4 breaks loading areas in Deimos, and probably other Open Worlds. Went into the area as my Shadow, and when I attempted to return, this occured. Both me and my friend are stuck here 

[Leqesai]

2 minutes ago, Velaethia said:

Well since his 4 is an exalted weapon it's literally better to use a regular melee weapon. Literally only use his 4 to apply it's 3 and then go back and nuke with real melee.  Obviously I don't want to scrap exalted shadow but efficacy wise it'd be better if his 4 was just shadow's 3. 

Also you mean equinox not ember right? Equinox night form has hella cc. That sev/shadow lack. 

Sevagoth CC and Defensive 

Shadow Damage and Debuff. 

Yes I agree I want it to be like this. But currently Shadow doesn't do enough damage. 

Yeah I meant equinox... lol... what a brain fart.

[(PSN)KBDUltimateNin]

also to make up for a weaker first ability ember has 90 percent damage reduction, armor stripping, and nuking power.  Sevagoth has slow, healing, and exalted melee. Ember is in a much much better place than Sevagoth. Wisp has 3 great abilities and then her “fun” ultimate ability. Reap cannot even be mentioned in the same breath as Wisp’s one. Gauss has a great one. Khora and Saryn. Mag’s stays useful. Protea, nyx, nova, Garuda, atlas, nidus, xaku, zephyr, ash, vauban, Nezha, Ivara, harrow, octavia, Gara, Mirage all have useful first abilities that remain useful until mission’s end. It’s no fun to have an ability that serves no purpose. And you can’t even max gloom to its full potential. It’s impossible to get max slow and have enough efficiency and duration to maintain gloom whilst having a large enough range to provide protection. Some tweaks would be nice.

[Leqesai]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

It’s impossible to get max slow and have enough efficiency and duration to maintain gloom whilst having a large enough range to provide protection. Some tweaks would be nice.

I mean... the build I was talking about is pretty darn close to what you're describing. >70% slow, nearly 40m range, 2.5s energy/s drain, like 480 energy (giving it an uptime of what... more than 5 minutes?

[FrostyNovaPrime]

To me Sevagoth feels like two completely different Warframes in one single entity. You need two different builds, each with their own different innate polarities and therefore different forma requirement. Each form gains affinity independently from one another too, you cannot level Base Sevagoth while in Shadow form and vice versa. Each form's abilities also don't really resemble each other like many other multi-form characters (asides from his ultimate to shift forms). Call of the Tempestarii had this focus of his Shadow wanting to find and reunite with his main body, but his Shadow feels completely disconnected from his Body.

 

I haven't played him enough to fully understand his kit just yet, but right now (like, 3ish forma into him) he's like many other characters with multiple forms (Equinox, Nidalee/Kayn from LoL for example) where one form is stronger than the other (Shadow being better/more consistent damage than Body). But unlike these other characters, Sevagoth's abilities don't seem to resemble each other through his two forms which again makes his Shadow and Body seem disconnected from one another.

[xZeromusx]

7 minutes ago, Velaethia said:

Well since his 4 is an exalted weapon it's literally better to use a regular melee weapon. Literally only use his 4 to apply it's 3 and then go back and nuke with real melee.  Obviously I don't want to scrap exalted shadow but efficacy wise it'd be better if his 4 was just shadow's 3. 

Also you mean equinox not ember right? Equinox night form has hella cc. That sev/shadow lack. 

Sevagoth CC and Defensive 

Shadow Damage and Debuff. 

Yes I agree I want it to be like this. But currently Shadow doesn't do enough damage. 

And honestly, Sevagoth doesn't exactly have the CC and Defensive aspect nailed down well either. Slow as far as CC and defense goes is the red headed step child of CC and Defense. In theory, it should be great. In practice, damage doesn't normally come in spread out over time. It occurs in chunks. Even if the chunks are further apart, they are still chunks of damage, and if you don't survive one of those chunks, the extra time between them doesn't matter.

Further, slow and stop abilities are despised on certain mission types. So, building him so that his slow is actually worth anything annoys your fellow players. And trying to build him so that his slow is actually worth anything is extremely difficult when the ability also makes range and efficiency a requirement, and duration is a requirement as well if you don't want to destroy his 1 and 2 with that high efficiency. You can't build a frame with all 4 attributes with only 74 or 78 resource and just 8 slots and not absolutely destroy everything else about the frame's base stat survivability either.

 

At the very least, changing the slow from slowing down enemy movement to slowing down enemy attack rate and boosting it to something like 50% would go a long ways to making Gloom feel stronger without being hated for slowing down enemy movement.

[Leqesai]

3 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

And honestly, Sevagoth doesn't exactly have the CC and Defensive aspect nailed down well either. Slow as far as CC and defense goes is the red headed step child of CC and Defense. In theory, it should be great. In practice, damage doesn't normally come in spread out over time. It occurs in chunks. Even if the chunks are further apart, they are still chunks of damage, and if you don't survive one of those chunks, the extra time between them doesn't matter.

Further, slow and stop abilities are despised on certain mission types. So, building him so that his slow is actually worth anything annoys your fellow players. And trying to build him so that his slow is actually worth anything is extremely difficult when the ability also makes range and efficiency a requirement, and duration is a requirement as well if you don't want to destroy his 1 and 2 with that high efficiency. You can't build a frame with all 4 attributes with only 74 or 78 resource and just 8 slots and not absolutely destroy everything else about the frame's base stat survivability either.

 

At the very least, changing the slow from slowing down enemy movement to slowing down enemy attack rate and boosting it to something like 50% would go a long ways to making Gloom feel stronger without being hated for slowing down enemy movement.

I agree with this in part because slow is really only useful CC when you get above 50-60% slow. But I'd argue a base of 50% is too high (maybe 40 or 45%) because getting it to like 80% is ridiculously powerful. I'm actually not sure what Sevagoth's slow caps out at but I plan on checking it out later tonight. 

[(PSN)KBDUltimateNin]

4 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I mean... the build I was talking about is pretty darn close to what you're describing. >70% slow, nearly 40m range, 2.5s energy/s drain, like 480 energy (giving it an uptime of what... more than 5 minutes?

Yes, with a build that tries to maximize the ability it is still impossible to get max stats on the ability across the board. You did a good job building for gloom, but it’s the story of base Sevagoth. It’s currently impossible to build him to use all of his abilities and his first two require his third for any level of survivability in the same manner it is impossible to build a maximized gloom. The problem is further conflated by the fact that his first two abilities seem wholly lackluster as abilities in themselves and useless if you aren’t aiming to use exalted melee. 

[(PSN)KBDUltimateNin]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

I agree with this in part because slow is really only useful CC when you get above 50-60% slow. But I'd argue a base of 50% is too high (maybe 40 or 45%) because getting it to like 80% is ridiculously powerful. I'm actually not sure what Sevagoth's slow caps out at but I plan on checking it out later tonight. 

His slow caps out at 95%. 

[xZeromusx]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

I agree with this in part because slow is really only useful CC when you get above 50-60% slow. But I'd argue a base of 50% is too high (maybe 40 or 45%) because getting it to like 80% is ridiculously powerful. I'm actually not sure what Sevagoth's slow caps out at but I plan on checking it out later tonight. 

Except when you're also building for other things, like range, efficiency, and duration, it becomes almost impossible to include strength as well without, as you said, cutting any and all improvements to his paper thin core survivability.

Further, the slow I'm mentioning is to slow enemy attack speed rather than slowing enemies themselves. Reducing attack speed and frequency is essentially what the current slow is doing. Even with as you mentioned, Arcane Eruption, you're interrupting and slowing the frequency of their attacks. Reducing attack speed does the same thing, but it would be to a greater base degree, and without the double edged sword of decreasing their movement speed and being an annoying POS in defense missions.

[Leqesai]

24 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

Except when you're also building for other things, like range, efficiency, and duration, it becomes almost impossible to include strength as well without, as you said, cutting any and all improvements to his paper thin core survivability.

Further, the slow I'm mentioning is to slow enemy attack speed rather than slowing enemies themselves. Reducing attack speed and frequency is essentially what the current slow is doing. Even with as you mentioned, Arcane Eruption, you're interrupting and slowing the frequency of their attacks. Reducing attack speed does the same thing, but it would be to a greater base degree, and without the double edged sword of decreasing their movement speed and being an annoying POS in defense missions.

Slowing attack speed without slowing movement speed? This is an interesting concept that we haven't really seen implemented as far as I know... Could be really useful.

[Leqesai]

28 minutes ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

His slow caps out at 95%. 

What...

95%? holy cow... so gloom has the highest slow potential in the game...

Ember is very interested...

I have a distinct feeling that we will see this nerfed at some point. (the upper limit anyway. there is already talk of the lower % being a little lower than ideal)

[xZeromusx]

5 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Slowing attack speed without slowing movement speed? This is an interesting concept that we haven't really seen implemented as far as I know... Could be really useful.

I'd also like to see improvements to increase the duration you can use his shadow as well, especially if this is meant to be his more damage hardy form.

We could start with having Gloom's soul siphoning still working while you're in the shadow form or increasing its siphoning strength. Because either A) The siphon stops working entirely when you switch to the ghost or B) It's such a miniscule amount that I don't notice any difference in the drain while in the shadow form with or without Gloom on.

[(PSN)KBDUltimateNin]

28 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

What...

95%? holy cow... so gloom has the highest slow potential in the game...

Ember is very interested...

I have a distinct feeling that we will see this nerfed at some point. (the upper limit anyway. there is already talk of the lower % being a little lower than ideal)

Well second highest rhino slows to 97.5%

 

I’m currently testing a build 238 power strength with an 83% slow and 170% efficiency but I just can’t get the range I need on this. I’m at 145%. It’s a hard ability to balance because you definitely want to take advantage of its maximization to slow enemy fire to basically a halt but also don’t want to get ratatata by the guys outside your range. Vial rush might be a subsume ability I’ll try tomorrow.  It might help close the distance on enemies far away. 

[Leqesai]

24 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

I'd also like to see improvements to increase the duration you can use his shadow as well, especially if this is meant to be his more damage hardy form.

We could start with having Gloom's soul siphoning still working while you're in the shadow form or increasing its siphoning strength. Because either A) The siphon stops working entirely when you switch to the ghost or B) It's such a miniscule amount that I don't notice any difference in the drain while in the shadow form with or without Gloom on.

I was thinking about the soul siphoning while in shadow form but i think this might be overpowered... You don't lose soul when the shadow dies so if you are constantly refilling the meter then what is to stop you from just popping back into shadow whenever it dies?

[Leqesai]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

Well second highest rhino slows to 97.5%

 

I’m currently testing a build 238 power strength with an 83% slow and 170% efficiency but I just can’t get the range I need on this. I’m at 145%. It’s a hard ability to balance because you definitely want to take advantage of its maximization to slow enemy fire to basically a halt but also don’t want to get ratatata by the guys outside your range. Vial rush might be a subsume ability I’ll try tomorrow.  It might help close the distance on enemies far away. 

Since mentioning the 95% I have been thinking of how to revise my current build and I am looking at this:

105% dur
175% eff
175% rng (28m)
280% pwr (95% slow occurs at 271.5% I think...)

Could go to 190% rng and 265% pwr but I have to reforma a bit to get this all sorted out.

I think 190% rng and 265% pwr is actually better but it only gets you to 92.75% slow, but the range is 30m

The extra 2m range is probably more useful than the 2.25% additional slow considering the importance of slow for both sevagoth's survivability and the shadow's/team's persistent life steal within the bubble...

 

Both builds with over 500 energy and 2.5/s drain on gloom. (over 200s uptime)

 

[xZeromusx]

28 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I was thinking about the soul siphoning while in shadow form but i think this might be overpowered... You don't lose soul when the shadow dies so if you are constantly refilling the meter then what is to stop you from just popping back into shadow whenever it dies?

That's because the ghost is the hardier of the two, the one that will be able to take a hit better. With Gloom up especially, and with his 1 drawing enemies in, the combination between pulling them into Gloom in order to perpetuate his ghost form makes sense. Plus, Sow works when you apply it to enemies, switch to ghost form, and then kill them with your ghost. Why not Gloom? Otherwise, it's a constant limbo of Sow, switch, kill, switch, sow, switch, kill, switch, sow again, and so on and so forth.

Also, the amount of soul in your meter currently prevents you from just recasting it whenever the ghost dies and the meter is below a certain amount.

[Tau.]

While I'm sure many others will cover much-needed power issues, this is one thing I absolutely can't leave unsaid for the record: Popping into kiddo form during Shadow state force-deactivating the Shadow and dropping you back off into Sevagoth is a massive technical kneecap feeling. Jarring. "Oh hey, we know you were just doing what's become a core gameplay reflex at this point but uhh, sucks to suck you gotta top off this bar deal as skinny lad before you can play that form again."

 

First thought: don't have kiddo mode force-deactivate the Shadow. Simple. It just feels janky and bad that it does that right now. 

 

Second thought: I'm not a huge fan of the Shadow being locked behind a kill-based resource bar in the first place. A short-range slightly-better-Valkyr situation isn't exactly all that powerful (in the situational impact respect). Doesn't feel all that worth the effort, outside of just fun and flavor factor, to build up a bar on a caster frame to Valk out for a bit. Effort for reward factor, you know. Thought: Simply have Shadow be a toggle. Death Well could empower or offer additional benefits to all of Shadow's abilities, scaling with and consuming the bar (similar to how Gauss' battery level affects his abilities), giving incentive to juggle between the forms, while also keeping the feels-good freedom of being able to choose what approach you want to go with. No awkward tripping over this whole, "Oops can't ult to switch, am [miscellaneous number of kills] away before I can," business.

[(PSN)KBDUltimateNin]

31 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Since mentioning the 95% I have been thinking of how to revise my current build and I am looking at this:

105% dur
175% eff
175% rng (28m)
280% pwr (95% slow occurs at 271.5% I think...)

Could go to 190% rng and 265% pwr but I have to reforma a bit to get this all sorted out.

I think 190% rng and 265% pwr is actually better but it only gets you to 92.75% slow, but the range is 30m

The extra 2m range is probably more useful than the 2.25% additional slow considering the importance of slow for both sevagoth's survivability and the shadow's/team's persistent life steal within the bubble...

 

Both builds with over 500 energy and 2.5/s drain on gloom. (over 200s uptime)

 

How? I’ve been trying to figure it out for the last 30 minutes. You can’t be using blind rage because there is no way to get back to 175 efficiency. So the only consistent strength mods left are transient fortitude (55) umbra intensify (44) augur secrets (24) and power drift(15)  which gets you to 238 power strength. You need two efficiency mods for 175 efficiency. And two mods for 175 range. Which is all the slots and no room for flow. And also like an 83% slow. What am I missing? 

[xZeromusx]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)Tazzilla88 said:

How? I’ve been trying to figure it out for the last 30 minutes. You can’t be using blind rage because there is no way to get back to 175 efficiency. So the only consistent strength mods left are transient fortitude (55) umbra intensify (44) augur secrets (24) and power drift(15)  which gets you to 238 power strength. You need two efficiency mods for 175 efficiency. And two mods for 175 range. Which is all the slots and no room for flow. And also like an 83% slow. What am I missing? 

Probably Energy Conversion, which is +50% str when you pick up an energy orb. There's also the strength boost from Pax Bolt on kitguns which is 30% and lasts perpetually on channeled abilities (Unlike the efficiency part of it which is really weird). They did say their build takes some in mission set up.

Edit: You could also add in a Nidus specter to boost your strength up with its tether.

[SireVisconde]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Orcus Imperium said:

Question, did you have issues leveling his shadow and claws?

Affinity boosts(booster or dark sector) don't seem to apply to the shadow AT ALL.

 I got myself an affinity booster and went ham with stealth kuva bramma on sedna which took me a few hours, so i didn't have any problem, as i hardly relied on sevagoth. Through this method, both his shadow and him receive equal amounts of affinity

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

23 minutes ago, TheMightyDungeonMaster said:

 I got myself an affinity booster and went ham with stealth kuva bramma on sedna which took me a few hours, so i didn't have any problem, as i hardly relied on sevagoth. Through this method, both his shadow and him receive equal amounts of affinity

Strange.

I was using gabi (ceres) to take advantage of my affinity booster, naramon's boost and the bonus dark sector exp but i wasn't getting my usual amount of exp, resulting in the claws leveling incredibly slow, even for my, more casual method.

 

Usually, with my method, a melee weapon takes 11 to 15 minutes(depending on its range and attack speed) to max out.

[iiGamma]

As stated in my other post, thank you for your hard work. 

Only real bug that i have found with Sevagoth is with his Shadow. for some reason after using a forma, you cannot swap polarity from one slot to another the way you normally can. while not overly gamebreaking, this will mess with someone like me who likes to keep certain polarities and mod types separate.

Will update with further info once discovered.