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Forma and Build Diversity in 2021


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So, to expand on the title - I think forma has lost what it once was meant to do.

Polarization of a slot was meant to increase capacity by lowering cost in that slot and allowing greater 'diversity.' Over the years, however, the number of mods has increased and, more notably, many of them have greatly increased in capacity cost, especially when the Umbra and Prime mods are taken into account.

Now, instead of polarizing slots increasing build diversity, it's gotten to the point where polarizing slots is necessary for certain builds and certain builds only, while changing either requires another built frame or another forma to replace - which then negates the original build and the cycle continues.

Acquiring forma isn't difficult, I know, but the constant leveling and re-leveling of gear feels more like a punishment now rather than an increase in diversity. While most of us aren't huge min-maxers, there certainly are builds that feel and work better for certain frames that do require an almost set amount of forma nowadays.

The Aura Forma - and more recently, the Plexus system in general - show a way of doing things that should be considered going forward, in my opinion.

Charge us 4 forma or something to build a Slot Forma that allows any polarization. That would allow the forma cost to increase but also greatly increase build diversity since we aren't locked into set slots.

Or, the Plexus system, where only certain mods had capacity values and others were changed to a separate screen that lacked capacity altogether. It's been shown it can be done now, so maybe the same could be applied to regular modding to change the 'required mods' most weapons have compared to the free slots that can effect the actual diversity of the weapon.

I just think that a change to the forma system might be a good idea going forward. I know this probably isn't the first time something like this has been suggested, but I figured I might as well talk about it since I saw some talking about the leveling system in general.

For me, it's not the leveling that's the problem, it's the trap that we're locked into without multiple frames/weapons for those builds we're leveling towards.

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23 minutes ago, SaberSentinel said:

Charge us 4 forma or something to build a Slot Forma that allows any polarization. That would allow the forma cost to increase but also greatly increase build diversity since we aren't locked into set slots.

Or, maybe another way could be implemeting a version of the old avionic grid system on mod slots: you spend some endo to rank up the slot 3ish times, then any mod there benefits regardless of polarity?
I don't think either is ever going to happen though, unfortunately, forma and boosters being good plat revenue.

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48 minutes ago, SaberSentinel said:

increase capacity by lowering cost in that slot and allowing greater 'diversity.'

... It was never like that. People simply like to think so.

Forma are used to refine builds, not allow build diversity. If their purpose was to allow such diversity, we wouldn't have to choose polarities to begin with, they would only increase capacity.

48 minutes ago, SaberSentinel said:

the number of mods has increased and, more notably, many of them have greatly increased in capacity cost, especially when the Umbra and Prime mods are taken into account.

Players aren't meant to put 5 Prime mods, 1 Riven mod and 2 Umbral mods in a weapon to have a functional build.

Do they give higher bonus? Sure, they do... But its a trade-off. Players need to choose which Prime mod to use and which Mods are going to be replaced by the specific Riven mod.

 

I'm not trying to invalidate feedbacks from anyone. I'm trying to point out that "Forma" and "build diversity" in the same instance of life is an illusion fabricated by people.

Edited by Uhkretor
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48 minutes ago, SaberSentinel said:

Or, the Plexus system, where only certain mods had capacity values and others were changed to a separate screen that lacked capacity altogether. It's been shown it can be done now, so maybe the same could be applied to regular modding to change the 'required mods' most weapons have compared to the free slots that can effect the actual diversity of the weapon.

I guess it could help in case of mandatory and bandai mods.

 

However in case of diversity you need more DIFFERENT and POWERFUL mods. If there are not too much of such mods then... it will be just another "more power" thing.

For difference aspect:

We have bunch of HP/arrmor mods, Adaptation, Rolling guard. For shield gating we have Augur set & the Aura. Not to much to choice.

For power aspect:

We have bunch of mods that have low values so you require few of them to see a change. E.g Cunning drift with 15% range.

12 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Players aren't meant to put 5 Prime mods, 1 Riven mod and 2 Umbral mods in a weapon to have a functional build.

Do they give higher bonus? Sure, they do... But its a trade-off. Players need to choose which Prime mod to use and which Mods are going to be replaced by the specific Riven mod.

I bet there are some number of builds that require lot of forma. In the Xaku I've put 5 forma (2 umbra) to have some space for augments.

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50 minutes ago, quxier said:

I bet there are some number of builds that require lot of forma. In the Xaku I've put 5 forma (2 umbra) to have some space for augments.

... Any refined build has, at least, 10 implemented Forma for maximum gains... Which is exactly how my chosen Main is set at.

When you're making a build just for the sake of diversity, you get ruined 90% of the time. The "Diversity" factor is only applicable when you're trying out unranked mods (not prime, riven, or umbral mods) in order to create a baseline for refinement.

 

... I shouldn't really need to explain this, but its always nice to serve as a refresher for those interested in having one...

 

Then, you start polarizing in order to refine the build.... Usually, builds tend to change mid-refinement due to base needs changing for a certain player (90% of the times, its always when a player moves away from obvious crutches) and, whenever that happens, the build refinement process needs to stop in order to test other unranked mods to see how it goes from that point forward.

Unlike what people may thing, searching for builds made from other players and applying to their equipment isn't covering their needs or adding anything to build diversity. The only thing that happens whenever someone does that is simply shifting the problems and needs from the players that made those builds placed on top of the problems and needs of the same player that's applying builds that aren't originally theirs -- which is an aggravating factor that they don't need to have.

 

... But, speaking of mods...

50 minutes ago, quxier said:

bandai mods.

.... Those sound interesting, let me order some from Bandai before their stock expire... haha

 

... On a more serious note...

50 minutes ago, quxier said:

However in case of diversity you need more DIFFERENT and POWERFUL mods.

Isn't "Diversity" as much of a high maintenance variable as the needs of each individual player?

... The needs of "Player A" aren't the needs of "Player B" which, in turn, aren't the needs of "Player C" which, in turn, aren't the needs of "Player D"... And it goes on.

 

When the needs of two players are exactly the same then its a coincidence and the same build may work for both...

... "may work"... because even between those two players, there is a fatal difference that no one apparently acknowledges -- Players are different, and their capabilities (or skills) are different at a really fundamental level, and there is no build that's able to cover that.

 

The only thing that has a potential to add build diversity is players making their own builds, without resorting to builds from other players... Unlike what people may think about it, these builds will cover all differences, including the ones that exist at a really fundamental level.

 

 

Does Forma help? They do, but only serve for build refinement. Asking for Forma to apply a universal polarity, or asking for a

1 hour ago, SaberSentinel said:

Slot Forma

Which applies pretty much the same thing I've just mentioned, will apply a limit DE's income.

Aura Forma and Stance Forma exist for the sole reason due to having just one slot... Now the other slots? there are 8 for Melee weapons and Archwing weapons, and 9 for Warframes, primary weapons and secondary weapons.

Some people are sitting on hundreds of built Forma. Even I have that many...

 

Now, think about those that have no Forma, and put yourself in DE's shoes... Would you really limit your potential income? Or would you just let Forma do their thing?

 

 

... Look, I get it... Its easier to just swap out mods and not worry about polarities, like its done with Auras and Stances... But "easier" isn't profit.

Edited by Uhkretor
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1 hour ago, JimmuTanno88 said:

I don't think either is ever going to happen though, unfortunately, forma and boosters being good plat revenue.

Yeah, which is why I suggested even the initial proposed cost for such a thing was 4 forma to represent each polarity a regular forma would do. Something with that kind of benefit also needs to balance the monetization structure already in place, but even a high cost would be worth it for the extra freedom in modding. Your idea is nice too!

39 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

snip

And this is already a thing, but Prime mods aren't even the worst offender for capacity cost in the frames themselves, that's the corrupted mods. Their whole thing is to have upsides and downsides and present a clear choice to players, but require forma to use. 'Refining' a build is good, but it's come to the point where often only one build is left.

To suggest otherwise at this point is to ignore the vast amount of mods with higher than 10 capacity costs. You can own multiples of mods at different ranks to try and offset the differences for builds.

It also doesn't limit their income. Paying for luxuries makes sense, so offset the luxury to players with the cost. Some vets have hundreds of formas saved up. Some of the general playerbase does. That doesn't mean everyone does, or that whales wouldn't want to pay for the quick fix either if they've run out.

To actually add to the argument would be a suggestion that such a 'Slot Forma' would be limited to one or two slots per frame, as that would make such a thing an actual boon to build diversity (as in focusing on specifics in the build itself like dur, eff, str, or range, not the player like you brought up) without making things completely insane by removing all the work put into items already with base forma.

For saying you're not trying to invalidate feedback, you've only argued against changing anything and not suggested any alternatives.

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10 minutes ago, SaberSentinel said:

you've only argued against changing anything and not suggested any alternatives.

I did, didn't I...?

 

... Or did I? Anyone that properly read my post can already see that I didn't close avenues...

 

... Instead of asking for a Slot Forma, why didn't you ask for an Exilus Forma, for example, which is what I see as a valid alternative to what you're asking for? That certainly has a higher chance of sticking and be implemented than a Slot Forma.

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4 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... Instead of asking for a Slot Forma, why didn't you ask for an Exilus Forma, for example, which is what I see as a valid alternative to what you're asking for? That certainly has a higher chance of sticking and be implemented than a Slot Forma.

It's a viable alternative that sticks to the core of the thread and does more than simply argue against. While I may not think it would do that much because there's only one mod in that slot that carries a huge cost at an odd polarity, it would still enable an extra 4 or so capacity for many builds without making too much trouble for the regular slots themselves.

I did read your posts. Your other statements were all rather closing avenues, yes, but this one was accepting of the suggestion while also suggesting an alternative that would be more likely, which is the spirit of debate. Have a like!

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The current polarization system punishes build flexibility and made players not going to bother to experiment to find a build that suits their playstyle. I would like to be able to forma a slot multiple times to unlock more available polarities. For example, I give slot 1 a vazarin polarity with the first forma. Then,  I applied a second forma the vazarin polarity option no longer exist so I choose madurai polarity. Finally, slot 1 has vazarin and madurai polarity installed and I can switch to whichever polarity available.

 

Edited by DrivaMain
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To @SaberSentinel's point.

DE: New Mods release, or "System X.0" (guns, melee, etc.) release.

Tenno: Update (or break) old favorite Warframe build!

  • Option 1: Re-forma/level X times.
    • Repeat until satisfied.
      • Update next favorite Warframe...
    • Regrets? Or simply unsatisfied after X tries?
      • Just F it, Option 2.
  • Option 2: F it and just build a duplicate Prime! Oh wait...
    • Get all parts again... (crack old relics... or just buy parts if you're not broke...)
    • Get new warframe and/or loadout slots... (or replace your least used but still favorite loadout if you can't buy a slot anymore...)
    • Re-forma/level X times...
  • Option 3: build diversity 2021++
    • Consider the aura forma and plexus system learnings to improve the current - 8 year old? - modding system, assuming that there will be more mods and "system X.0" coming for another 8 years or so?
    • +1 to diversity and constant improvement, not punishment or more grind after 8 years.

✌️

 

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I hope we hear some news regarding this.. With certain loadouts, I have to forma my frames each time I want to try a new mod. EACH. TIME.

And I think this is bad. It often leads to discouragement of changing mods, in a game where switching up stuff is often downright promoted by the devs. 

The sad thing is, double dipping also doesn't help with that either. People lose it when talking about its removal but literally can't see the benefits it can bring. 

Example:

As in an ability (some, just an example) as of now has 30m at max range with 4 range mods equipped. With removal it can mean it's rebalanced to hit 30m with just 1 to 2 mods equipped. 

It's just sad that DE released hundreds of mods the last half decade and NONE of them are used because of players having to double dip the hell out of everything for up to being effective and impactful in gameplay. (yes, we have frames that are unnoticeable in gameplay and have no effect if not double dipped to hell) [I'd even be fine with only allowing 1 dip, as in 2 mods, which would free 2 slots at least] 

I hope both gets addressed at one point. Because it's really getting hurtful to the game. 

I know they're aware of the issues of double dipping, hence it was mentioned in a devstream, I just hope they don't drop the ball and be like 'only melee should not be allowed to double dip'. 

Having to put half a dozen mods doing the same effect into frames is BAD. 

---

I know that this would require a huge new balance pass, but in the end for diversities sake, it'd obviously be better. 

Edited by (XBOX)TyeGoo
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I know formaing things isnt always entirely necessary, but imma be honest here, if i'm going to be walking into unknown content, or trying to challenge myself on content I'll be walking in with something thats up to the challenge. It was less necessary before to have forma'd gear but now with the release of steel path and other things that have higher level content and high defenses it almost gets to a point where you need it. 

Personally after 8 years, you'd expect builds to have been blown wide open with all manner of possibilities being possible, and builds being able to be swapped out quickly and painlessly because it's just not fun to not be able to experiment with the best builds for you when theres so much option but so much limitation. If anything the mod cost should just be removed and let people slot in whatever they want and then balance around that

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Forma I think always had power creep baked into its design, rather than build diversity: Corrupted mods were pretty much the prototype for this with their massive stat bonuses and often equally large capacity costs, and with them people started putting in Forma and choosing their dump stats for min-maxing purposes. The problem with Forma as an enabler to build diversity is that polarities don't lend themselves to that: by design, polarities make mods of a certain type easier to slot, and everything else costlier, so when you're polarizing a mod slot, you're reducing your build diversity in exchange for more raw power. As a result, it's actually very difficult to experiment with builds in Warframe, because unless one only enacts half-measures and only slots in some mods, one will need to spend Forma and time to bring one's item to a state where one can try something different that may not even be better.

Personally, I think it'd be ideal if we didn't have Forma or polarities at all, and mods had their drain reduced so that we'd get to mix and match them at will, but that's unlikely to happen given that Forma is one of DE's cash cows (which is likely why they introduced the the feature in the first place and subsequently released powerful mods with high drains to make us use it). With this in mind, my take on potentially increasing our build diversity without harming the devs' revenue would be the following:

  • Change how polarities work, so that slotting in a mod of the "wrong" polarity does not increase that mod's drain.
  • Allow polarities to stack on the same slot, so that any slot could have multiple polarities.
  • Potentially implement a new, universal forma that would allow us to give any mod we choose a universal polarity, and would require a Aura Forma and a Umbra Forma to craft.

So effectively, polarities would be purely beneficial and wouldn't restrict our builds, plus we'd be encouraged to put much more Forma into the stuff we like for purposes of experimentation, but also bragging rights. Your favorite warframe could, for example, have a universal polarity on every slot. Not only could this give veterans something to do with their time, it could also be desirable to DE if that means they get to sell more Forma.

Edited by Teridax68
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There are trade-offs in modding that open diversity for archetypes with skills/abilities like Railjack, Warframes, Archwing, and Companions. The examples I listed that are not Warframes suffer from gameplay and mod restrictions that house only 1 viable build, but the ability to mod differently is present. For weapons, there is only 1 goal: kill more efficiently. With this in mind, I don't believe there will ever be a system for modding that doesn't boil down to "1 best build for this weapon". Forma is already a great system to me personally, and I don't really want it changed. Modding choices are already opened up with mods like Internal Bleeding/Hemorrhage which are very much worth a slot on forced-impact weapons. Design decisions like these are what promote more diverse builds across the arsenal, not more Blood Rushes or Condition Overloads. Changing Forma will not change what people mod for, changing mods will.

Edited by Voltage
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