Warframe Should Be Challenging

[bnuy]

On 2021-04-23 at 5:39 AM, Teridax68 said:

snip

I very much agree, but I do think a balance pass on weapons with the current imbalance in the damage system and build diversity wouldn't accomplish much. Armour scaling is an issue that needs to be addressed, and slash/toxin shouldn't bypass armour/shields because this actively punishes build diversity. If the entire armoured faction of different types can have that unique resistance aspect entirely bypassed then the entire faction is essentially the same health bar just of differing values. Same thing for shields, they need to play more into the resistances of health/armour/shield types and move away from the damage reduction scaling and stacking on enemies.

On 2021-04-23 at 11:42 AM, Steel_Rook said:

snip

This would all be lovely to see, armour changes, EHP squish, weapons balance pass. I would seriously freakin' cry if we got this all in an update and it was done well. Better enemy design also makes the game plenty more enjoyable. Enemy units with good design are things like the Nox, Saxum, and despite what other people in this thread say, the Nullifiers. I see these all as good design, one issue with Nullifiers however is that their weakness drone is in a random spot, it should always be one the side facing the nearest player or the player that is currently aiming at the bubble but move around slowly and reward proper aiming. This would mean you are always able to hit the Nullifier weakpoint so long as you take the time to aim at it.

One issue I have with their "enemy design" is doing arbitrary invulnerabilities like making the big Deimos infested immune to Viral procs. Viral is an issue that needs to be addressed, but you don't do this by slapping immunity onto enemies, it's just band-aid "fixes", aside from that though I think the enemy design as of late has been much improved.

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, Maggy said:

and despite what other people in this thread say, the Nullifiers.

The reason why nullifiers are hated is because it downright negate your powers instantly on certain frames. It would be better that on contact it reduces the effectiveness significantly instead of downright dispel. Fortunately, that already exist! I'll take nidus stack as an example, if you enter a nullifier bubble it drains. If we apply that to every Warframe power nullifiers would have been more balanced.  I'll list 2 more example on existing warframe powers if they change it like that :

• Vex Armor : on nullifier contact duration is cut in half at 2 second interval.
• Cataclysm : on nullifier contact bubble shrink to 50% of current size and current duration is cut in half

[Steel_Rook]

5 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

The reason why nullifiers are hated is because it downright negate your powers instantly on certain frames. It would be better that on contact it reduces the effectiveness significantly instead of downright dispel. Fortunately, that already exist! I'll take nidus stack as an example, if you enter a nullifier bubble it drains. If we apply that to every Warframe power nullifiers would have been more balanced.

There's a lot of crap which wipes out abilities when it shouldn't, including falling out of bounds and using your Archwing.

However, you are right - Nullifiers need to be less binary. In particular, I would institute the following rules:

• For abilities with variable health (Frost Snowglobe, Limbo Cataclysm, Gara Mass Vitrify), deal severe damage over time to them on contact with a Nullfier bubble.
• For abilities with variable bonuses (Atlas Rubble Armour, Nidus Mutation), reduce bonus value rapidly on contact with a Nullifier bubble.
• For abilities with variable duration (so most of them), reduce duration rapidly on contact with a Nullifier bubble.
• For enemy "grapple" abilities (Bonewidow Meathook, Grendel Feast) disable the "grappling" effect after a short (1s) contact with a Nullifier bubble.
• For abilities with multiple of the above, apply all relevant effects.

The long and short of it is this: Let Nullifiers nullify our abilities, but over a short period of time as opposed to instantly. Most Warframe abilities scale in one or more of their aspects. Nullifier bubbles could reduce those aspects rapidly on contact, as long as the player remains inside. Bubbles could in fact cascade this reduction speed the longer the player stays in the bubble to ensure that even abilities with exceptionally high stats aren't particularly resistant.

[Duality52]

9 hours ago, Maggy said:

despite what other people in this thread say, the Nullifiers.

I'm leaning towards the Juno Elite Crewmen to be a lot worse than Nullifiers. Their AoE Supras negate a number of mobility options and defensive abilities such as Garuda's Dread Mirror. Furthermore, they're the bane of Sentinels in the Corpus Ship tiles. They, along with any Terra Crewmen and some Empyrean Crewmen have a hidden 75% heath damage resistance to:

• Blast
• Cold
• Viral
• Magnetic

[bnuy]

4 hours ago, Duality52 said:

I'm leaning towards the Juno Elite Crewmen to be a lot worse than Nullifiers. Their AoE Supras negate a number of mobility options and defensive abilities such as Garuda's Dread Mirror. Furthermore, they're the bane of Sentinels in the Corpus Ship tiles. They, along with any Terra Crewmen and some Empyrean Crewmen have a hidden 75% heath damage resistance to:

• Blast
• Cold
• Viral
• Magnetic

I really dislike DE randomly tacking on arbitrary resistances outside of the base resistance types... It reeks of an attempt to band-aid fix the Corpus to be more tanky like the Grineer without directly buffing their scaling or other issues, which is irritating.

5 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

There's a lot of crap which wipes out abilities when it shouldn't, including falling out of bounds and using your Archwing.

However, you are right - Nullifiers need to be less binary. In particular, I would institute the following rules:

• For abilities with variable health (Frost Snowglobe, Limbo Cataclysm, Gara Mass Vitrify), deal severe damage over time to them on contact with a Nullfier bubble.
• For abilities with variable bonuses (Atlas Rubble Armour, Nidus Mutation), reduce bonus value rapidly on contact with a Nullifier bubble.
• For abilities with variable duration (so most of them), reduce duration rapidly on contact with a Nullifier bubble.
• For enemy "grapple" abilities (Bonewidow Meathook, Grendel Feast) disable the "grappling" effect after a short (1s) contact with a Nullifier bubble.
• For abilities with multiple of the above, apply all relevant effects.

The long and short of it is this: Let Nullifiers nullify our abilities, but over a short period of time as opposed to instantly. Most Warframe abilities scale in one or more of their aspects. Nullifier bubbles could reduce those aspects rapidly on contact, as long as the player remains inside. Bubbles could in fact cascade this reduction speed the longer the player stays in the bubble to ensure that even abilities with exceptionally high stats aren't particularly resistant.

This sounds like some amazing changes for nullifiers, I'd also really like the one I suggested above about the drone placement, so you can always target the weakspot. These two changes together would make Nullifiers actually well balanced and engaging to be put up against, instead of just downright frustrating a majority of the time.

[ES-Flinter]

Am 27.4.2021 um 15:14 schrieb Steel_Rook:

The long and short of it is this: Let Nullifiers nullify our abilities, but over a short period of time as opposed to instantly. Most Warframe abilities scale in one or more of their aspects. Nullifier bubbles could reduce those aspects rapidly on contact, as long as the player remains inside. Bubbles could in fact cascade this reduction speed the longer the player stays in the bubble to ensure that even abilities with exceptionally high stats aren't particularly resistant.

Actually I would it more like that the abilities get just stopped (&reactivated if leaving the bubble) instead of getting weaker. I can't give a reason why it's better I would just like it more on this way.

Am 27.4.2021 um 15:14 schrieb Steel_Rook:

There's a lot of crap which wipes out abilities when it shouldn't, including falling out of bounds and using your Archwing.

I agree on archwing, but why falling out of bounds? In other games does it normally result in an instant death and imo is there also no reason which justify to not get punished. Failing parcour or not having the right abilities, mods while fighting in the near of a cliff is the own fault and should be punished this way. (Otherwise will falling our of bounds also become a survival mechanic.)

[Andele3025]

On 2021-04-27 at 3:14 PM, Steel_Rook said:

The long and short of it is this: Let Nullifiers nullify our abilities, but over a short period of time as opposed to instantly.

Just to note, nullify(/suppress/cancel/negate as it are its synonyms in the form its used instead of as legal or mathematical sense) does not mean turn off/end, as such just by name i agree more with the other fella in the sense of they should just suppress the effects while in the field. It would make combas stronger than nullies if they actually did as their name said (negate instead of remove/dispel the abilities), but thats (99%) fair (the 1% being easily solved by DE making the wave require true perma LOS and not be usable by them right on spawn).

On 2021-04-27 at 5:01 PM, Duality52 said:

I'm leaning towards the Juno Elite Crewmen to be a lot worse than Nullifiers.

Juno, much like Terra Elite and Railjack enemies just lie about their level. They have stats not supported by the rest of the game being a massive inconsistency.
Even deimos infested are per hit DPS cap aside essentially just infested after the jugulus got fixed to not beat heavy grineer 2x their level.

3 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

but why falling out of bounds?

Methinks its because a lot of older tilesets have really harsh definitions on what "out of bounds" means (even if its a pit you could just double jump out of god forbid the amount you could bullet jump out or where the ceiling is in said bullet jump height away from reset). Tho that should be fixed by fixing the maps rather than falling not resetting you.

[Kontrollo]

It's quite funny how fast this went from "Warframe needs more challenging content" to "nerf Nullifiers".

I agree with the former and disagree with the latter.

[Tinderox]

Did you guys play cuphead? Cuphead a very easy attacks to evade. The twist is that this are 3 or 4 attack patrons at the same time, and our brain can handle so much information.

Is like we are superman. we are gonna end this mission easy, but we cannot be in 2 places at the same time.

Railjack did it, but did it wrong. In railjack if you had a railjack wound, you must return to your railjack and repair it. the point is that you must walk again all the time to the mission point, instead of use the omni to return to the last point.

Im saying that if we want to make warframe more challenging we need submissions, need to do 2 or 3 things at the same time in the way to end the principal mision, whitout affect the flow of the game so much(like railjack did)

For example. try to play an interception missions( at a lvl you play) whitout a cc frame. You must to have more than 2 zones controled to not lose point and 3 to gain the mission. That is challenging

[bubbabenali]

And I want Diablo 3 to be a tactical random encounter rythm shooter. 

I guess you can't always get what you want. 

[Bakaguya-sama]

I like how a lot of people automatically thinks "Make Warframes more challenging" = "Make Warframes Dark Souls". It's like some sort of mental conditioning.  

How about:

 "Make Warframes enemies not permanently CC'd or spawn killed from 3 rooms away",

or "Make some Warframe weapons/skills not do 100+ times the damage of the alternatives"

or "Make Warframe eHP values less insane so we don't need 99% damage reduction/ immortality cheeses on both the players and the enemies" 

There's like a giant chasm the size of the Pacific ocean between Warframe and Dark Souls. Warframes is much closer to Cookie Clicker than it is to Dark Souls. There's plenty of space to slide that scale around.  

Also, we would not need Nullifiers if Mesa, Saryn, Limbo and Vauban did not exist in their current form. Of course, Nullifiers spam is unfair to other Warframes that doesn't have map wide nuke/CC, but hey, that's part and parcel of of an unbalanced game.    

[ES-Flinter]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Bakaguya-sama:

I like how a lot of people automatically thinks "Make Warframes more challenging" = "Make Warframes Dark Souls". It's like some sort of mental conditioning.  

How about:

 "Make Warframes enemies not permanently CC'd or spawn killed from 3 rooms away",

or "Make some Warframe weapons/skills not do 100+ times the damage of the alternatives"

or "Make Warframe eHP values less insane so we don't need 99% damage reduction/ immortality cheeses on both the players and the enemies" 

There's like a giant chasm the size of the Pacific ocean between Warframe and Dark Souls. Warframes is much closer to Cookie Clicker than it is to Dark Souls. There's plenty of space to slide that scale around.  

Also, we would not need Nullifiers if Mesa, Saryn, Limbo and Vauban did not exist in their current form. Of course, Nullifiers spam is unfair to other Warframes that doesn't have map wide nuke/CC, but hey, that's part and parcel of of an unbalanced game.    

A difficult curve/ level like in the super Mario bros games would be nice. Or is this also to difficult for some players?🤔🤔🤔

Btw you did forget to mention Octavia. She's even for a warframe op.

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

I like how a lot of people automatically thinks "Make Warframes more challenging" = "Make Warframes Dark Souls". It's like some sort of mental conditioning.  

I haven't seen anyone bring up Dark Souls yet, though. Most of the suggestions here don't go that way, either. If anything, they're closer to "Make Warframe Left 4 Dead" or more broadly "Make Warframe into an actual shooter." The game, as it stands right now, has all the tools and mechanics of a proper action shooter but we as players never really need to engage with most of any of them. The majority of fights are resolved in the Arsenal, with our actual real-time input borderline irrelevant. You're not going to get "challenge" out of that kind of system. This is the same problem that the old Tab Target MMOs of the early 2000s had, and why they almost inevitably boiled down to a "meta." When numbers are the only thing that matters, then there can be no challenge. It takes only a few people to figure out the optimal solution and render the rest of our tools irrelevant.

The goal of making Warframe "more skill based" is to move the determinator of success or failure out of our Orbiter and into the missions themselves. It's to make us succeed on fail depend on our actions, not our builds. It's to give us something to DO in missions, rather than coasting through the visuals while the game ostensibly plays itself. Players should be expected to do more in the missions they play. Players should be allowed to automate or entirely remove less of the game's content. Players should be rewarded for trying to engage with the mechanics and play this game like a shooter and discouraged from playing it like a glorified Clicker Heroes knockoff.

This is why I keep drawing a distinction between "difficulty" and "challenge." Making the game more difficult doesn't necessarily make it more challenging. It's entirely possible to make Warframe more challenging without making it more difficult, or indeed while making it easier in the long run.

[Rantear]

11 часов назад, Steel_Rook сказал:

The game, as it stands right now, has all the tools and mechanics of a proper action shooter but we as players never really need to engage with most of any of them.

Well, Warframe was just a generic shooter initialy, alot of AI behaviours probably still exists from those days.
I prefer the current power-fantasy setting more, as it's more feels more entertaining, but our enemies never really left the generic shooter era.
Large raknoids in Orb Vallis are probably the only enemies that would fit the current setting, but even they need some work.

11 часов назад, Steel_Rook сказал:

 Most of the suggestions here don't go that way, either. If anything, they're closer to "Make Warframe Left 4 Dead" or more broadly "Make Warframe into an actual shooter."

Never really seen it like that; honestly, don't even think that it is correct interpretation, but neither is Dark Souls one, although trying to adapt some of the Dark Souls boss fights into Warframe would work far better, than trying to make it into a horde shooter or a sluggish generic one.

 

Anyway, regardless how long, discussions about difficulty in Warframe never get anywhere.
There's always same two sides of the spectre:
1st side:
Basically wants the game to satisfy their humiliation fetish:
Only ever suggests more one-shots, bulletsponges, nullifier-like enemies that work like parasitic eximi, and worships Steel Path.
Basically, if it would've been considered bad game design by most people, those people would love it, as long as it's unfair to the player, and bonus points if there's no work-arounds, other than higher number. Usually meta slaves with rivens and top arcanes, "games 2 izi", anyone who's not with them is a dirty casual, and should learn to build properly (git gud or buy my arcanes!).

2nd side:
Those who doesn't like the so-called artificial difficulty:
Usually want to fix some unfair to the player behaviours, also crave for difficulty, but never suggest anything specific, only "skill pls, no numbers", which is understandable, DE are the ones who supposed to make enemies with interesting mechanics. Also people on this side seems to frequently request completely rebuilding almost every mechanic in the game, just so that their, quite blurry, vision of the game could be realised. (honestly, it's time to realise that you're asking for too much work on the DE's part)

Sadly, Steel Path and new stupidly overtuned enemies, that pop-up with almost every update nowadays seem to suggest that DE caters more to the first side, they still won't be happy tho, and will continue to claim that DE only makes content for noobs.

There's also 3rd side, almost never seen:
People who realised, that if you don't max your mods, don't overtune your frames, don't use arcanes, and don't put 8 forma on every new piece of equipment, game actually becomes quite challenging in some areas.
DE won't bring challenge, so those people just make challenge for themselves. (as long as it doesn't hurt muh efficiency ofc)

[xZeromusx]

On 2021-04-23 at 2:54 PM, Kingsmount said:

I advocate the opposite.  Delete Nullifiers and Energy Drain.   Energy Drain is bullS#&$ and equivalent to, but even more severe, than "Ammo Drain" or "Combo Drain / Attack Speed Drain".  

The baseline gameplay should be more like Dynasty Warriors than Dark Souls.  All "Muh Challenge" does is force people to use specific weapons and cheese, invalidating a lot of frames and rendering most weapons unviable. 

Challenge should be reserved for bosses, puzzles, and "elite" enemies that should be few and far between, say every couple minutes or with scripted spawns at certain objectives.  Elites being proper minibosses, not larger grunts with poorly designed game mechanics such as the bullS#&$ Energy Leeches and Parasites that look  functionally identical to every other enemy in the crowd, and  provide no feedback what so ever that they're guzzling your energy harder than Chrome guzzles RAM, which they could be doing from behind walls, under the floor, or above the ceiling, and automatically with nothing you can do to avoid it (As opposed to for example, a line of sight tether projectile that physically latches onto you). 

Enemies in general could stand to be overhauled so there are few if any Hit Scan attacks, all being Projectile,  and special effects and AoEs get properly projected.

This, all of this. I LOVE the horde shooter aesthetic where we feel like gods among mere mortals. So, when a peon with a bubble or a  doggo uglier than a pug drains all my energy "just because", I am left just scratching my head like "why are these attributes not reserved for minibosses defending the objectives?"

We can do challenging in this game while keeping the game entirely accessible to the casual player and maintaining the horde destroying enjoyment. Pretty much ALL of the Eximus abilities could and should be rolled into minibosses that spawn at objectives, or become field effects at an objective or used in various interesting ways in endless missions.

 

OP's mention of spy missions being harder: Imagine if there was an energy drain field around one of the spy objectives which you can maybe try to disable while in the area. No more Ivara just prowling through everything.

Or take Defense missions. The Kuva Defense mission is actually kind of interesting. Every wave adds a new level of complexity as turrets appear, fire hazards appear, "the ground is lava", etc. That is cool. Or take the Grineer Shipyard Defense tile set where you can get randomly struck by lightning. That could have been taken to so many interesting directions. For one, it's raining, so there should be water hazards as well for slip and fall. Perhaps add more weather related hazards like hail that can cause impact and cold damage and procs. That is less monotonous than wave after wave of the same map. And it is WAY better than having maps where the enemies have to walk a mile to even reach the target objective. We didn't need more complex defense maps with 30 levels and miles of AI pathing, we needed more complex mechanics in those maps.

Same for Interception as Defense. Towers could generate a buff within their radius when Tenno hold them and a debuff when the enemy holds them. The buffs could maybe be fire rate, reload speed, a small amount of energy generation. The debuffs could be eximus auras.

The disruption missions did something like this with the random buff or debuff to the entire mission. And I think that could be expanded on to also make survival missions more interesting too. Have a different mechanic like those in disruption missions occur every 5 minutes. Maybe not as extreme as "energy drain" for 5 minutes or "abilities nullified" for 5 minutes. But 5 minutes of increase pack spawns, or 5 minutes of traps could be a lot more interesting than just 5 minutes of the same enemies with a little level buff.

Speaking of Disruption, I think they attempted to do minibosses, but the attempt leaves a lot to be desired. There are great aspects to disruption which makes it a lot of fun though too. The random buff/debuff stuff for instance. Some of the debuffs, as I said, are a bit extreme. Energy drain mission wide for instance (This really should have been an aura around the towers themselves instead). However, the minibosses are where I think they didn't quite hit their mark. It's not the ability nullification pulses either. It's the tunnel vision the demolysts have. They go straight for the tower, and you have only their travel time and like 2 seconds once they reach the target to stop them. What is the point of including a timer on each tower if the minibosses will reach it way before that timer? Instead, it should be a DPS timer. Buff the minibosses health and shields way more. Turn it into a REAL fight. You have to kill the demolyst before the timer runs out, with it running around nullifying your abilities periodically, attacking you, etc. All while the tower causes a random buff/debuff. And if the timer reaches 0 and the demolyst isn't dead, it goes straight for the tower and detonates.

I mention Survival, Interception, Defense, and Disruption specifically because endless type missions are really where I think the game becomes the most monotonous and boring. Defense, Interception, and Survival could also use minibosses as well just like Disruption. Steel Path did a great job of incorporating mini bosses with acolytes. However, these minibosses shouldn't spawn at random times in these endless missions. Players will need time to deal with them. One of the worst culprits for this is probably our most love-hate meme: Vor in the Void. The minibosses should spawn at the wave's start in endless missions.

Further, the minibosses would be a perfect source for the rare resources. Just like how bosses drop rare resources for their planets. Minibosses should have a guaranteed drop for them as well. So, you can go into a Void mission knowing you'll get at least one argon crystal if that mission can spawn a miniboss.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

IMO, this is a much bigger issue than making enemies stronger/give them more tools ... or even make warframes weaker/nerf everything. I've posted in several other topics of this sort, trying to bring up this point:

For all its appearances, Warframe is not a game about killing enemies. It is a game about opening mobile loot crates and pinatas, some of which also shoot back. Our primary objective through it all is to gather loot, not to kill enemies, regardless of the objective type. We're running missions for the loot. There is no bonus for how we kill enemies, the skill involved in not triggering alarms, or sniping with all headshots (besides the damage bypassing shields on corpus). I personally like it this way, but would not be averse to creating optional bonus objectives always present within the game (or in certain game modes), where people can try to achieve these other objectives or playstyles during them.

Warframe has a core design requiring killing hordes of enemies to amass tons of resources to build things or killing hordes of enemies to get a CHANCE at a super rare drop (in the .0X decimal range). If it took us longer to kill enemies, they'd have rebalance the drop rates of everything, or the grind would become excessive. It's excessive now, even with drop rate increasing frames and boosters. There is no outcome of rebalancing the game for "more engaging encounters" with hordes of grunt enemies that does not adversely effect the wider tapestry of the game's design.

However, I do not see the DE devs implementing bonus objectives or said "more engaging encounters" with proper risk/time/reward. There are a few (not many) good ideas that I've seen in this thread, but it's more revolving around changing the in-game mission objectives, rather than re-balancing the game so we're NOT the demigod elite super ninjas that can single handedly take out enemy armies and win an unwinable war against constantly adapting and assimilating enemies.

I like Warframe the way it is, challenge-wise. I'd play games like Destiny if I wanted every enemy to be a head-shot aim testing scenario filled with bullet sponges, where your abilities are basically on long long long timers, so you're basically a guy with a gun.

[Steel_Rook]

8 hours ago, Rantear said:

Well, Warframe was just a generic shooter initialy, alot of AI behaviours probably still exists from those days. I prefer the current power-fantasy setting more, as it's more feels more entertaining, but our enemies never really left the generic shooter era. Large raknoids in Orb Vallis are probably the only enemies that would fit the current setting, but even they need some work.

By this point, I regard the term "power fantasy" as a conversation ender. It means almost nothing, so everyone projects whatever they want into it. You can still have elements of a power fantasy in a fundamentally "skill based" game - incidentally another conversation ender. You could give Warframe combat more complexity, give players more to actually do and still maintain the power fantasy angle. There's a reason I keep bringing up Division 2 in these sorts of discussions. It's an objective example of a game where difficulty can vary between impossible/frustrating and power fantasy/curb stomp entirely based on how well the player performs in the moment. Enemies are given deliberately frustrating mechanics like grenade spam, incendiaries, high damage and cover negation but nearly all of those tools can be turned against them. Smart players can troll the enemies far harder than enemies can ever troll them. Things like interrupting grenade throwers so they drop grenades on themselves, breaking weak points to hurt enemies in an AoE, breaking weak points to deny or alter abilities, etc.

Warframe enemy design overwhelmingly has none of these things. Enemies have hitpoints and - most of the time - exactly one weak point. There's very little enemies can do to the player besides apply DPS. On the rare occasion when they do other things, there's rarely anything the player can do about it. Most of this game's combat can be abstracted down to DPS in / DPS out with the player interaction removed entirely and very little of substance would change. The player isn't in control of the mission, so much as a passive passenger along for the ride. We push buttons, yes, but all too often with about the same level of involvement as pressing Play on a YouTube video. Technically an interaction, but not in any meaningful way.

You can have your "power fantasy" and I can have my "skill based gameplay" at the same time. Complex enemy design and complex combat mechanics are the tools needed for both. They allow developers to create more interesting content, they allow players to interact with the game to a more meaningful extent. Enemies can be made much stronger in order to create the illusion of danger, players can be made much more capable to create the illusion of power and interactions can be made much more important to create the illusion of agency. We shouldn't settle for a passive experience.

 

8 hours ago, Rantear said:

Anyway, regardless how long, discussions about difficulty in Warframe never get anywhere.
There's always same two sides of the spectre:

That's a very reductive view of the argument, bordering on disingenuous. No, there aren't just these two sides to the argument. Stop trying to categorise people into boxes and ascribe to them the arguments from their corresponding box. Myself and others have made specific suggestions in this thread already, with few if any falling into either of those two boxes. Difficulty is not a matter of masculinity. It's a matter of game design.

[Rantear]

4 минуты назад, Steel_Rook сказал:

That's a very reductive view of the argument, bordering on disingenuous. No, there aren't just these two sides to the argument. Stop trying to categorise people into boxes and ascribe to them the arguments from their corresponding box.

Well, i don't think i've ever seen it affect developer decisions, not here, not in any other game.
You spend much more time on forum than me, surprised you didn't notice it, there's really no differences when this topic arises.
If there are new independent ideas, they usually get drown out in the sea of cookie cutter opinions, unless DE has someone who does nothing, but reads every forum post 24/7, i doubt they'll ever be seen.

13 минут назад, Steel_Rook сказал:

Difficulty is not a matter of masculinity. It's a matter of game design.

Oof, fellas, is it feminine to have a humiliation fetish?
You should've just ignored that part, you just made it sound waaay worse than it already was. 😅

Also, first part of your reply was just a complete rambling, generic ideas that have been posted on all of the social media channels hundreds of times, or have been present in other games for ages, definetly worst thing that you could write after telling me to stop categorising people....

25 минут назад, Steel_Rook сказал:

You can have your "power fantasy" and I can have my "skill based gameplay" at the same time.

Even assuming that those could be mutually exclusive is soooo wrong, but i guess "power fantasy" is quite the ambigious term. I mostly define it as differences between Warframe's "generic shooter" past (that's why i started my previous reply with that), and "bullet-jumping magic space ninja" present.

Спойлер

When on forums of specific games, i tend not to include any other games in thought process, if possible, but there's no way that you would've known that.

Anyway, it's a pointless discussion, years of forums dwelling taught me that much.

[Steel_Rook]

6 hours ago, Rantear said:

Well, i don't think i've ever seen it affect developer decisions, not here, not in any other game.
You spend much more time on forum than me, surprised you didn't notice it, there's really no differences when this topic arises.
If there are new independent ideas, they usually get drown out in the sea of cookie cutter opinions, unless DE has someone who does nothing, but reads every forum post 24/7, i doubt they'll ever be seen.

Myself and others brought up the idea of knockback recovery via tech rolls, similar to one-on-one fighting games. We did this for a couple of years. Warframe Revised brought us a new version of knockback which... Allows us to tech-roll out of it, in two separate ways no less. You can either hit Jump in the designated time window to recover instantly, or you can hold a direction and roll out of the knockback faster. There's your example. It's a change which makes the game objectively more skill-based as it requires manual input to use, it's a change made in response to player requests. Not necessary MY player requests, obviously, but this existed on the forums long before it was in the game. I see no reason to stop trying, nor chide people for trying.

And that's just the obvious example which came to mind. Plenty of player requests have made it into the game over time.

 

6 hours ago, Rantear said:

Also, first part of your reply was just a complete rambling, generic ideas that have been posted on all of the social media channels hundreds of times, or have been present in other games for ages, definetly worst thing that you could write after telling me to stop categorising people....

I posted plenty of more specific ideas earlier in the thread. You skimmed over them and showed no interest in addressing them, choosing instead to insist that none of it matters. I feel no particular compunction to repeat myself for the sake of someone who doesn't care for substance. If you want more specific ideas, look through the thread. They're there.

 

6 hours ago, Rantear said:

Anyway, it's a pointless discussion, years of forums dwelling taught me that much.

Well, with conduct like that, I can see why you'd have that impression. When you take an active role in sabotaging discourse, then of course you'll come away with the impression that discourse doesn't happen. Personally, I tend to put people who consistently derail threads on ignore. It causes the forums to run a lot smoother.

[Rantear]

3 часа назад, Steel_Rook сказал:

Myself and others brought up the idea of knockback recovery via tech rolls, similar to one-on-one fighting games. We did this for a couple of years. Warframe Revised brought us a new version of knockback which...

I was talking purely about difficulty, which in this case requires changing basics of the game, how is this relevant?
Altrough such addition doesn't really have a category i guess...

Also that's weird, when that update with self-stagger came out, i tried it like a hundred of times, and it didn't work, did they actually implement it?
(you kinda exaggerate with your "more skill-based" alot of people probably don't ever use it)

A couple of years..... Well that makes sense then i guess, i usually don't waste that much time on the forums to notice such thing. 
That's quite the achievment, even tho really inefficient one, but sometimes even having direct dialogue with the devs changes nothing.
Although it really does sound like people just kept repeating same thing over and over, and then one day it just finally crossed with what devs had in mind.

3 часа назад, Steel_Rook сказал:

I posted plenty of more specific ideas earlier in the thread. You skimmed over them and showed no interest in addressing them, choosing instead to insist that none of it matters. I feel no particular compunction to repeat myself for the sake of someone who doesn't care for substance. If you want more specific ideas, look through the thread. They're there.

You usually write entire walls of text, i didn't even skim over them, obviosuly i showed no interest in addressing them, since i don't even know what ideas there are to address.

You can quote your own posts for that exact reason, which also will bring more attention to them, if it happens that someone actually relevant checks the thread.

^Kinda common sense, don't you think?

It mainly doesn't matter because it's your ideas, you don't make the game, you don't decide anything here, regardless of your forum presense, you already proved that yourself, as it takes years for even something unsubstational to be added.

I also didn't use "generic" as juxtaposition to "specific", but in the sense "unoriginal".
(juxtaposition... is that the right word? sorry ESL person here, translator only shows it)

Спойлер

Specific ideas.... not sure about them, not many devs would really take them, at least i think so, it's a creative job after all.

3 часа назад, Steel_Rook сказал:

Well, with conduct like that, I can see why you'd have that impression. When you take an active role in sabotaging discourse, then of course you'll come away with the impression that discourse doesn't happen. Personally, I tend to put people who consistently derail threads on ignore. It causes the forums to run a lot smoother.

Nah, I gave you the wrong idea here, i'm usually a lurker, I almost never take an active role at all.
It is purely my observation from... possibly hundreds of threads at this point. (not only in Warframe).

Also the one derailing here is you, my initial post was at least somewhat on topic. I expected an entirely different reaction to it.
That someone would challenge some of the points, as it usually happens, like "if one-shots are not a challenge, then what is?" or "if our ideas are generic, what you gonna suggest, smartass?" lol, but you decided to go personal, and now the mood is gone.....
Anyway I guess that was stupid of me to expect that, well, insomnia does that to me, gotta learn from my mistakes, or sleep more....

[ES-Flinter]

Before the thread dies and gets forgotten. Solo play is also quite strange in warframe.

I mean Solo play normally means : "do mission x, but do the work of a four player group alone and without any extra help." But in Warframe does the task become easier (#lower enemy spawns). Am I the only one who hates that the challenging part of Solo-play just get completely destroyed?

[Lutesque]

On 2021-04-23 at 4:32 AM, (PSN)thefallenloser said:

 

Mobile defense should actually be mobile, and not defense points. Defend a target that moves throughout a mission.

Like the Sortie/Arbie Defense Operative ? 🤔

On 2021-04-23 at 4:32 AM, (PSN)thefallenloser said:

 

Capture is definitely the most egregious of offenders, as it consists of running into a mission, one-shotting a random enemy, and leaving. Enemies should try to actively defend the target while they escape. perhaps leaving behind environmental hazards and locking down the doors to buy themselves extra time.

I'm against any and all changes to Capture purely because even though it's definitely a problem.... It's a problem we all make use of....

Since Captures are the shortest mission types that naturally makes them more appealing In the face of every other mission type in this game being long drawn out affair....

On 2021-04-23 at 4:44 AM, Duality52 said:

DE Scott did admit that they want to develop more interesting enemies, but they would lack any meaningful impact. Thing is, it's incredibly difficult for DE to design any "challenge" against us considering the fact that we're not ninjas, but actual gods. We're so overpowered that if Warframes are brought into any other shooters, they will completely smear away any "challenge" that gets thrown in their way due to:

So I mean... That's the thing....

Can DE convince the Warframe Community that some Sacrifice is required to actually fix this game ?

Because in my case I'm willing to sacrifice everything in my inventory if it means the game play could be more Dynamic....

On 2021-04-23 at 4:55 AM, DrivaMain said:

They only want to get the new shiny as fast as possible.

I don't even know how to go about addressing this specific issue.... This is human nature we're fighting here.... I can't think of ways convincing players to slow down.... Infact.... I'm likely the one telling everyone to Speed Up...

On 2021-04-23 at 5:05 AM, vanaukas said:

So much this. It's always "but this isn't challenge, it's boring" at every single attempt to develop ineteresting enemies. High dmg? Weak spots? Invulnerability phases? Ability reistance? High eHP?

 

On 2021-04-23 at 5:06 AM, DrivaMain said:

Don't forget these lines..

"this isn't challenge, It's unfair"

"One shot attacks isn't challenge"

"5 second telegraph isn't challenge, THAT's UNFAIR"

It's important to understand that boredom and difficulty are not mutually Exclusive.... Infact most recently I was playing Lightfall and the game gets more boring as it gets harder.... Why ?

Because they increase the challenge by not letting you utilise any of your new toys even outright Deleting the whole Gimmick the game is based around for extended periods of time....

This Definitely made the game harder but just minimising safe zones and making platforms smaller is definitely not going to be more fun.... 

You can apply that to Warframe aswell.... The game is obviously unbalanced.... And you could balancing everything to make it harder but having Butchers and Charges stick around for a while longer before dying isn't going Satisfy any one....

What Warframe is lacking first and foremost... Is Counter Play.... Counter Play or even just actually interaction between the mechanics would go a long way to making the game more enjoyable.... Once that's done... Then we can start worrying about Balance....

On 2021-04-23 at 5:26 AM, Cerikus said:

Remember Lua Spy was REMOVED from Sortie, because it was "too difficult". 

I'm pretty sure it was removed because the engine couldn't handle the Multiverse Shenanigans in a Non-Solo Setting.... It was way too easy to break especially for Griefers....

Lua Spy isn't really difficult... It's just Convoluted and even then only the final Vault is convoluted... The first two are actually Manageable with some Help.

On 2021-04-23 at 5:26 AM, Cerikus said:

I don't mean this in a bad way, but a typical Warframe player just cannot / doesn't want to handle any challange.

That's because the new player experience gives everyone more than a enough "Challenge" for a life time hence nobody wants to experience any more Hardship after that...

Now maybe if they Fixed that players would be more open to challenge in other areas of the game....

Just my Theory....

On 2021-04-23 at 12:35 PM, Loza03 said:

So, a oneshot can be fairly challenging

I Firmly Disagree 😐.

Don't get me Wrong... I've played games were one hit equals death..alot of platformers actually work this way most of them being alot of fun... But I can never say that challenge can properly exist in a One Hit kill Environment....

On 2021-04-23 at 12:35 PM, Loza03 said:

 

I've started to feel like Warframe lacks those meaningful choices, which might lead into at least some of what @DrivaMain has pointed out. Railjack ground units were 'challenging' at release, because they had massive health bars, were resistant to armour-stripping or armour-avoidance weapons, and had hitscan weapons that could oneshot squishier frames. Sure, they were difficult. Maybe even challenging. But these mechanics didn't encourage making interesting choices, they encouraged following the restrictive meta. You'd need to bring a powerful Hybrid weapon in order to deal with the huge health bars of the Grineer units, built for Corrosive because the other option (viral/slash) didn't work, and you'd either need to play a tanky frame or a squishy frame that could lock down the whole environment and keep it locked down 24/7 because hitscan can't be dodged, it's just an RNG roll to hit.

This whole bit reminds of this Lil Rant Matthew Matosis' went on in his Devil May Cry Commentary which can be summarised by saying: "It's fair... So long as you play a specific way....".... 

Give me a moment to look for it (it will take a while to locate 2 Minutes of Footage in a 3 Hour Video 😱).... 

 

Here we go... Just skip to 1:14:15 😉...

Never mind... No need to skip... If I embedded it properly then it should just start at the right place...

On 2021-04-23 at 2:39 PM, Teridax68 said:

•  
• Change enemy hitscan weapons to fire projectiles, and rework the targeting algorithm of enemies so that they have perfect accuracy, but only when we're standing still or walking in extremely predictable patterns (e.g. flying in a straight line from one end of the room to the other). Using our parkour and other sources of mobility properly to rapidly move around a tile should allow us to dodge and evade incoming attacks.

They can go one Step further and do what Batman Arkham Knight does and let the Enemie's targeting Be Transparent.... Showing exactly the Trajectory the Projectile in Question will take before the enemies even shoot.... 

I'm surprised so few games do this or only do it for potentially Big Attacks while Batman does it for EVERYTHING.... Well... Everything as far as the Tanks go.... 😛.

On 2021-04-23 at 4:12 PM, ES-Flinter said:

I never though about this (ash main, I never get hit), but I agree with you. Changing hitscan weapons into weapons with bullet flight time, would definitely remove the rng aspect of it it. Until now is the dogding solved with damage reduction on different maneuvers, but seeing the passing projectiles fly away like in matrix would be epic. 🤤🤤🤤

 

That's the dream !!! 🤤

On 2021-04-23 at 8:07 PM, ES-Flinter said:

The to difficult part can be solved with better rewards (it worked on eidolons),

No it can't (and it didn't) 🤨....

You can't fix an actual mechanical issue just by Bribing Players.... Sure you can change people's perceptions of those activities by changing the rewards but whether a mission is actually engaging or not doesn't actually change by swapping out the S#&$ty Endo Drop in and replacing it with Umbra Forma Bundles.

This is why I call it Bribery.... You're just Paying players off to sweep a problem under the rug ... And the knock on affect this type of Solution has is extremely unpredictable based on what you decided to bribe the players with.... 

Umbra Forma will definitely get players to shut up for a while but once they reach a point where all their Warframe's have 3 Umbral Polarities then not only are you right back to square one.... You've now unbalanced the game even harder than before with no goodies to further bribe your current players who have a new baseline of higher expectations.

On 2021-04-24 at 11:08 AM, (PSN)mahoshonenfox said:

The enemies or obstacles are not the challenge of the game. Its the RNG... The RNG is the challenge of the game. Especially if its a multi layered RNG. 

This Too !!!