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Update 30.0 Converted Kuva Liches still suck

(XBOX)Vamma Takayn

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We finally have the command intrinsic and we finally were able to dive deep into the update and see what it would be like to have a companion that was unconventional. and alot of us were looking forward to it and seeing what results we would come up with. This was entirely underwhelming and not what we were hoping for.

in this post we are going over what we got and what we were hoping for. I give props to DE for telling us ahead of time in the patch notes that the Converted kuva liches (although declared an ally if converted aboard the rail jack) are not in anyway customizable and this was very disheartening and here are all the listed reasons as to why.

I am going to be comparing the converted kuva liches in this post to crewmates and specters I will be listing the pros and cons of all three. this is to place things on a comparison scale so the average player can make a determination if they even want a converted kuva liche before dedicating their life to converting 1 to have as a crewmate.

                   Lets go over the main reasons why a player wants a kuva liche. what does a player gain by converting a kuva liche and why would a player choose this over simply killing a kuva liche.

1) killling a kuva liche gives the player a weapon and, if the liche has an ephemera, an ephemera. they are the only two benefits for killing a liche

2) the benefits for converting a liche is A) for selling, B) as a crewmate aboard a rail jack, or C) obtaining the ephemera. 

since a player can get the ephemera by killing or converting this benefit is negligible if the player simply decides to kill or convert, so the player defaults to a different reason for which is better of the two options. option 1) obtaining the weapon. option 2) selling and before selling a crewmate. the weapon is big motivator and clearly a good choice to own a weapon automatically in my book this far outweighs the other two options. the selling part is a hard sell, as the reason someone would even want to buy your liche is if it has something of value to another player (an ephemera or a weapon and the weapons stats) as time progresses owning the weapon becomes less and less valuable because players can always grind these things out eventually grinding the weapon out wont mean anything to the majority of the player base this goes the same for the ephemeras. more people get them with no limmit and therefore decreases in value. even selling anything on xbox is already a pain and no one truely does it as the chats are filled for the most part with trolling players, offering 2 fish for a weapon you spent hours grinding that everyone already has. with that being the issue obtaining any liche that has something good already is a challenge liches are still 300% start to finish RNG. I did a recent live stream of the entire process of simply converting a liche from start to finish. even cutting out 90% of the beginning grind the stream lasted for 4 hours where a majority of the time was spent collecting murmmurs just to not be able to sell the liche in the market because everyone has it or the stat is too low and no one wants it doesn't sound fun. causing the majority of the player base to opted for killing. however, if having it as a crewmate proves to be effective then converting would still be a viable option.

in our clan with only a few players where we collected the data we tried to draw some conclusions about converted kuva liches espeacially as crewmates. unspoil for our clan's data.


all kuva liches converted can be found in the codex of the orbiter, the rank at which you killed or converted the kuva liche is recorded here. selecting the liche shows the rank of the liche. one question we wanted to truely answer was, "does the kuva liche deal additional damage when its converted at rank 5 versus a lower rank?" so we collected all the recorded data and put them onto a chart for ease of presentation. with the command intrinsic "unusual crewmate" all converted kuva liches are immediately populated into the rail jack crewmates equip menue and when you equip them it shows health, shields, and the weapon percent. Let TD = total damage of base equipped weapon damage damage. let PD= the percent resultant of the lich elemental. for the purpose of simplisidy we will be excluding damge from crits and elemental DOTs and elemental procs as all those are relatively universal from liche to liche and cancel each other out. digging in a little more the overal damage of the kuva liche is ((TD ) + (TD x PD)) x 3. therefore we determined the most important variable was the liches PD. which is entirely RNG. the player could choose the weapon, but without grinding out forever couldn't determine the percent the liche would offer. Out of our 51 converted kuva liches, we found only 1 had a perfect 60% and was converted. 8 converted kuva liches had percents higher than 50%, but werent perfect 60%. 6 converted liches had rolls between 40% and 50%, 9 converted liches had rolls between 30% and 40%. with the remaining 28 with percent's less than 30%. from here. we corelated the converted liches damage % with the rank at which they were converted at. again since the major factor in thier damage is determined from this percent we concluded from the graph there was indeed no correlation between the damage of a converted kuva liche and the rank at which it was converted (figure 1)


Figure 1. important note that there was only 1 converted at rank 1 and 1 converted at rank 2. we feel these two data points are the most in accurate, but the precise in its occurance since the probability of guessing a liches order on the first attempt is only 1/886.


When you equip a kuva liche to the crew spot you can see the converted kuva liches health and shields. it doesn't however show the armor capacity here. so we removed the armor stat from our study and only presented the health and shield stat of converted kuva liches. we also noticed some RNG in the health stat we had rank 5 converted kuva liches with health stats as low as 10,458 and as high as 18,766. like wise amongst the rank 5 converted kuva liches the highest sheild stat found was 6,949 and the lowest shield stat was found to be 2,344. the lowest health stat came from the rank 1 converted kuva liche at 2,600 and the lowest shield stat at 886. its important to note that our sample size for the rank 1 converted kuva liche was 1 and the sample size for the rank 2 converted kuva liche was 1. and therefore these 2 stats are our most inaccurate stats leading to probable error. however, with only 1 being rank 2 and 1 being rank 1 it was found this ammoun is accurate to our sample size. in Figure 2 you can see there is a positive corelation to health capacity with kuva liches converted at higher ranks. additionally, we found a similar positive corelation with shield capacity of converted kuva liches as they relate to rank as shown in Figure 3.


Figure 2 above shows health capacity as it relates to the rank at which the kuva liche was converted.


Figure 3 above shows the positive correlation of shield capacity as it relates to the rank at which a kuva liche was converted.


In conclusion, our study supports the claim that kuva liches converted at higher ranks have a greater capacity for surviving in higher tier rail jack missions, however, our data does not support the claim that kuva liches if converted at higher ranks deal more damage to the enemy. this study in no way determines the value of kuva liches being placed aboard the railjack and also doesnt determine weather or not its ideal to place aboard the rail jack or if damage and health of a liche will result in a mission success.


although from our study liches are clearly tanky. Kuva liches lack 75% of the functionality of crewmates. the reason why this is important is that the crewmate completely removes the need for for a kuva liche and the pressence of a kuva liche when playing solo doesn't remove the need for additional crewmates in the higher tier missions. additionally there are some factors that discourage the entire use of crewmates and liches all together.

to show this arguement beyond just functionality we will compare the stats of the kuva liche, the spectre, and the crewmates.

we will go over the list of Pros first then the Cons to each one in the spoiler




            1) spectres can be spawned on command in any mission

            2) spectres stay indefinitely in the mission they are spawned in until they die and are not revived

            3) spectres give affinity when they make kills (figure 1)

            4) spectres can be told to hold position

           5) spectres take on the items and configurations of your loadout

           6) spectres can cast abilities

           7) spectres health and sheild scale with enemy level making them viable in endgame missions including rail jack

            8) spectres are easy to get in standard missions

            9) spectres can be different from tier of spectre or the same

            10) spectres  can be improved with the different tiers of spectre

            11) spectres teleport and or travel where ever you are in mission including volatile


Figure 1) am ember spectre out of view on the right using and arca plasmor that kills 2 grineers left the explosion from the spectre and the trail from the ember can be seen in view, as you can see from the top right of the screen i am the only one in the squad and i have just gained affinity (the white numbers near the explosion) from the kills the ember spectre have made.

Crewmates (as purchased by ticker)

          1) they can be upgrade via "competency gain" increasing stats like health, sheilds, speed while piloting, heat accretion, accuracy, revo efficiency, heal rate increase, and damage

          2) they can be forced spawned into any regular mission

          3) they grant affinity in normal missions.

           4) they can hold position or follow when forced into a mission

           5) they can be assigned roles aboard the rail jack

            6) they can heal the rail jack (this is very important)

            7) they can be given a weapon from your loadout

           8) they can have sigils, syandana's and be completely customized aesthetically

           9) they can be revived in railjack missions

           10) ranking is independent of star chart progression

            11) cheaply purchasable from ticker 

            12) requires little to no grind for purchase

Kuva Liches

          1) have a crazy high health capacity (even a converted rank 2 liche with only 6000 health held its ground in high level rail jack missions)

          2) has the helmet of the progenitor warframe (this is a cool feature and the only chosen player feature aside from the kuva weapon it weilds)

         3) can defend the rail jack on board the railjack in missions

Yep, thats about all the pros.



       1) in rail jack missions can only defend the rail jack similar to a liche

        2) colors and aesthetics are non-customizable

        3) require more access to the star chart to obtain better varients

        4) only 1 of each spectre type in mission (kills the other warframe spectre with the deployment of another spectre)


      1) grants no affinity for kills while playing solo in rail jack. this is particularly important, because intrinsics are based on affinity gain in rail jack evidence of no affinity from gun men or kills is present in figure 2. affinity is gained from making successful kills, repairing the ship, completing the objectives reviving crewmates, if any crewmate takes this away from the player the player is at a loss. a study our clan did was we gathered 4 players together and played solo on rail jack i played with crewmates, and the players with out the crewmate command intrinsic played without them, we all played the same volitile veil proxima mission. we recorded our intrinsics. i recieved only 5 intrinsics, players that did the entire thing solo reported recieving 10 intrinsics. then we squaded up at the end of the mission we all reported of intrinsic gains anywhere from 40-70 intrinsics. our squad of 4 people multiplied our intrinsic gain by 10 simply ditching any resemblence of crewmates from our rail jacks squading up and getting in a party. we even came to the conclusion the crewmates by taking the kills repairing the ship and completing objectives on our behalf were actually taking intrinsics from us. making it better to play with no crewmates and complete a mission then to have the crewmates on board. see figure 3 for intrinisc gained from 1 player kill.

     2) piloting with a crewmate isn't particularly helpful. a crewmate when piloting will fly in a random path. this makes it particularly difficult to aim at corpus crew ships and 1 shot them behind thier sheild, because the crewmate doesnt fly behind the corpus crewship shield. additionally at the end of a volatile rather than the crewmate flying in the direction you need to line the rail jack up with the points it continues this seemingly random path travel. this could be fixed by adding a piloting mechanic where the crewmate lines the player up on the end game objective for volatile missions so they can use the foward artillary on the objective. that way the player doesnt have to essentially play this solo, shold they have a fully ranked pilot crewmate.

    3) the crewmates don't have shoulder emblems (big sad).

    4) does not follow you into the final segment of volatile

    5) when using the "on call intrinsic" the crewmate only spawns in for 30s then has a 10min cool down. this is one reason why converting liches felt awful.

    6) stats are primarily based on the crewmates ticker has availiable for purchase.


Figure 2 above shows a fighter that was destroyed by a crewmate acting as gunner showing no affinity number poulating out of the explosion. followin the mission it can be confirmed no affinity was gained for the player on behalf of the player. this presents a particularly frustrating proble of the crewmates essentially "stealing the affinity" from the player.



Figure 3) above shows the value of affinity gained when a player on the pilot seat makes the kill. 

Kuva Liches

       1) cannot be customized aesthetically with color pallets to match the crew. leaving 90% of customization of the liche left up to RNG. no equipped ephemeras, no matching colors, no nothing. this is very disappointing. wants to be part of the crew, but doesnt want to wear the uniform.

      2)  If you want a high health and shield you have to kill the liche at rank 5 essentially punishing the player for killling the liche sooner.

       3) weapon damge the kuva liche has in RNG and therefore its damage is RNG

       4) in part the kuva liche rank is RNG do to the puzzle containing a random probability of being 1 of 8 mods. 

       5) no affinity gained from kills in any game mode (explaination why this is bad is shown above)

       6) cannot be upgraded

       7) cannont be assighned a role

        8) cannot heal the ship. so the boarders are all dead, but so is the ship *slow clap.

        9) is utterly useless if you have no boarders on your ship

        10) cannot be force spawned in using the "on call" intrinsic" which means the lice still only spawns in if you use a revive

         11) does not travel with you into the final segment of volatile

         12) takes hours to get one for it to be a tanky item that literally uses your rail jack as a taxi, and your chauffeur. (in this case the grind doesn't match the reward hours of game play little to show for it)

         13) the kuva liche literally still spawns in for 30s on your death in normal game play and says "welp. that was fun".

         14) also affinity steals in railjack via kills



so inspite the heavy awesome stats from the liche, the lack of utility makes players cringe at the thought of even converting one if it just sits on a rail jack all day and doesn't listen to you. what was the point of the hour long grinds?


so what needs to change?

Kuva liche changes that need to happen to make them worth the grind.

    1) kuva liches need to wear the uniform (they need to be colored to match the crewmates)

    2)  kuva liches matching elements should be able to be valenced fused like the weapons to give them better stats. this should increase the weapon stat, the health and shield capacity.

    3) kuva liches need to be assighned orders. they are grineer for pete's sake if they can fly one and repair thier own they can put out the fire on your ship.

    4) when he kills in rail jack affinity needs to be given to the players in the squad.

    5) kuva liches should follow the player on board to the oblisk or the pillar or the grineer galleons after all they are part of the crew and the crew needs to destroy those things

    6) kuva liches should also be put "on call"

    7) kuva liches when they spawn in should stay until the mission is done (if we are friends he wouldn't abandon me before the job is done even if its until the end of the round on endless missions like a "you can stay but its too much for me" message prompt.

-does this seem to take out the benefit of the crewmate? ----YES! IT should players grind out hundreds of these each one taking hours to convert THEY SHOULD BE BETTER! its the benefit should match the reward. why does the crewmate that I bought 2 seconds ago can be placed on call? why does it get customized? why doesnt the liche where the uniform? if its on my ship it wears the unifrom. the grind to get should match the reward from it. crewmates shouldnt be better in all aspects. spectres shouldnt be better in all aspects.

spectre changes that should happen

      none really these are very good as is

crew mates changes that should happen for quality of life

     1) the pilot mechanic needs to change a little, maybe like the reticle mechanic on sevagoths first so the crewmate when the player is on the forward artillery the crewmate heads in the objective.

     2) the crewmate needs shoulder emblems

     3) when the crewmate repairs, makes a kill, destroys a fighter, completes and objective the players on board should get affinity that way its a true "solo mode"

     3) the "on call" should be through out the remainder of the mission for pete's sake if he's "my second in command" he can fetchin learn how to delegate.

     4) crewmates should follow the player on board to the oblesk or the pillar or the grineer galleons after all they are part of the crew and the crew needs to destroy those things.

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15 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I want to able to mod my Lich's weapons, isn't that too much too ask? Getting a lich requires more effort than regular crew members. The rewards doesn't match with the effort needed.

I'd love to be able to switch out their weapons & abilities while also being able to add/change their armor, colors, syandana & ephemera, ya' know, like you should be able to with normal companions.

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I have one converted kuva lich as an experiment.

he was at rank 5 when converted, 5,5k shield, 15k health

he has a kuva nukor with 26% magnetic bonus damage

I was hoping that he can wipe out boarders, so I pair him with 2 engineer crews.

so I go to void storm in veil proxima, 2 missions, all dissapointing.

my dissapointment:

1. he has so low damage on his weapons and his abilities.

when I came back from ground mission, there still a bunch of boarders, and my engineers are all bleeding out, so I have to revive my engineers and clear out boarders, to save the missions, what a pathetic defender he is.

2. he cannot heal over time, vazarin cannot heal him either, so after a several boarder attacks, he dies without bleeding out phase so I cannot help him at all, and end up with 2 crews for the rest of the missions.

so, my conclusion, at current state, kuva lich crews are indeed sucks.

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On 2021-04-23 at 6:53 PM, Zennophati said:

I have one converted kuva lich as an experiment.

he was at rank 5 when converted, 5,5k shield, 15k health

he has a kuva nukor with 26% magnetic bonus damage

I was hoping that he can wipe out boarders, so I pair him with 2 engineer crews.

so I go to void storm in veil proxima, 2 missions, all dissapointing.

my dissapointment:

1. he has so low damage on his weapons and his abilities.

when I came back from ground mission, there still a bunch of boarders, and my engineers are all bleeding out, so I have to revive my engineers and clear out boarders, to save the missions, what a pathetic defender he is.

2. he cannot heal over time, vazarin cannot heal him either, so after a several boarder attacks, he dies without bleeding out phase so I cannot help him at all, and end up with 2 crews for the rest of the missions.

so, my conclusion, at current state, kuva lich crews are indeed sucks.

I have come across these findings before, but wasn't recording them, so I lack sufficient records to support your claim, but I have noticed this trend as well.

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