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Sevagoth has "slow aura" - give something like this to Xaku as well


quxier

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Xaku also has his passive boosted to 75% while his 4 is active as well. And his 4 is duration based, with no energy drain, allowing you to still benefit from Energy Pulse and Energizing Dash. The trade off, less slow, applied in a larger base area when casted, while ignoring 75% of projectiles and 75% of AOE damage, coupled with his other abilities having their durations extended through the end of his 4, and his 2 allows him to essentially turn on Auto kill mode on. All while still having great energy generation options.

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5 hours ago, xZeromusx said:

Xaku also has his passive boosted to 75% while his 4 is active as well.

5 hours ago, xZeromusx said:

while ignoring 75% of projectiles and 75% of AOE damage,

25% still can kill you easily (if not prepared). As fair I remember, if you want active gameplay (e.g. shoot or use melees) then you have to use carnis set which is slow and it's still not even100%.

6 hours ago, xZeromusx said:

And his 4 is duration based, with no energy drain, allowing you to still benefit from Energy Pulse and Energizing Dash.

And it's 25 more energy per cast, the same as Gloom, can benefit from Zenurik or energy drops.

6 hours ago, xZeromusx said:

coupled with his other abilities having their durations extended through the end of his 4

And those abilities don't necessary need that much duration, especially 1st.

 

And don't forget about void buff and speed buff (which is almost non-existent).

 

Their 4th do a lot of things but are not got at anyone. Gloom on other hand is pretty good at slowing & energy consumption.

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59 minutes ago, quxier said:

25% still can kill you easily (if not prepared). As fair I remember, if you want active gameplay (e.g. shoot or use melees) then you have to use carnis set which is slow and it's still not even100%.

And it's 25 more energy per cast, the same as Gloom, can benefit from Zenurik or energy drops.

And those abilities don't necessary need that much duration, especially 1st.

 

And don't forget about void buff and speed buff (which is almost non-existent).

 

Their 4th do a lot of things but are not got at anyone. Gloom on other hand is pretty good at slowing & energy consumption.

75% complete damage avoidance is nothing to down play at all. For Gloom to reach 75% slow, you have invest a pretty significant amount of strength into Sevagoth's build. And the ability also requires investment into range to also be effective in a significant enough area. Then needing efficiency on top of everything severely limits Sev's build option. You are right about one thing: Xaku doesn't need a lot of duration. is 4's base duration is 25 seconds, which is significant already. Also, The Vast Untime costs 100 energy, double what Gloom costs to simply activate Gloom. However, Gloom's cost is not just measured in activation, but in its drain as well when enemies are inside. At 7.5 energy per second max, the cost is not insignificant. If we were to assume the same duration as The Vast Untime, the cost comes out to a whopping 237 energy, assuming at least 10 enemies are always inside its AOE. Obviously, that's not always going to be the case, but Gloom exceeds The Vast Untime's energy cost the moment 10 enemies are in its radius for only 7 seconds.

Gloom is great at slowing enemies and healing, but its energy cost is still incredible. It also has a 16m base range compared with The Vast Untime's 25m base range.

Further, with Auras like Brief Respite and Augur mods, as well as the shield gating meta, duration based abilities have a significant leg up. Gloom's necessity for efficiency means that its activation cost is usually low, making benefiting from Brief Respite and Augur mods difficult. The Vast Untime however doesn't necessitate efficiency mods. Because you can still benefit from Energy Pulse and Energizing Dash while The Vast Untime is active, there's no reason to invest into efficiency. The base 100% will do. This translates to heavy shield recovery using Brief Respite and Augur mods, which translates to shield gating, and better survivability for Xaku.

Gloom, on the other hand, can only recover energy from Energizing Dash and Energy Pulse while there are no enemies in its radius. The moment an enemy enters the radius, when you'd actually really need the energy recovery to off set the active drain of the ability, the recovery from them ends, making using Zenurik less beneficial to Sevagoth than Xaku. Further, energy channeling abilities don't feed into your shields. And because Gloom favors a healthy amount of energy efficiency, Sev's other abilities are also not very good for recovering shield.

Xaku benefits heavily from a lot of range. It allows for a larger radius for his slow. Grasp's kill radius becomes very effective at larger range, Accuse can cover more area, and Gaze can strip armor from more enemies in a larger radius. Xaku isn't hurting at all when you couple shield gating with healthy shield generation, auto kill mode in a large area, as well as perpetuating his abilities with The Vast Untime, corrupting enemies in a large radius, as well as stripping them of armor in a large radius. I can help you with a build for Xaku that I find works excellently even in SP.

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14 hours ago, quxier said:

25% still can kill you easily (if not prepared). As fair I remember, if you want active gameplay (e.g. shoot or use melees) then you have to use carnis set which is slow and it's still not even100%.

Or you run Adaptation to compensate for that 25% chance of getting hit.

I run my Xaku in Steel Path easily with Adaptation, and they can tank quite decently.

14 hours ago, quxier said:

And it's 25 more energy per cast, the same as Gloom, can benefit from Zenurik or energy drops.

But Gloom is a support ability while The Vast Untime is a nuke mode for Xaku, meaning that they get stronger with a press of a button.

14 hours ago, quxier said:

And those abilities don't necessary need that much duration, especially 1st.

But if you want to have their Grasp of Lohk for a long time and keep the added control with Gaze, then you'll need that added duration.

And, with enough energy, that added duration can get over 10 minutes.

14 hours ago, quxier said:

Their 4th do a lot of things but are not got at anyone. Gloom on other hand is pretty good at slowing & energy consumption.

As I said, Gloom is a support ability, requires to have a good energy consumption to keep healing, as Sevagoth is a Support/Melee frame, while Xaku is a CC/DPS frame.

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20 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Why does Xaku needs a slow aura, when he has a damage aura via Grasp, dead enemies > slowed enemies :P

Xaku doesn't need a slow aura. You're correct.

On 2021-04-24 at 3:43 PM, quxier said:

Xaku's slow buff is smaller (25% vs 35%) and is one-time-action (you either kill enemies or new enemies come making "slowness" useless).

Make it like Sevagoth's Shadow's Gloom - enemies around Xaku will be slowed down.

Nitpicking here but Shadow does not have Gloom , Sevagoth does. Shadow is the offensive half and Sevagoth is the CC+support half.

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On 2021-04-25 at 2:55 PM, xZeromusx said:

75% complete damage avoidance is nothing to down play at all.

I'm not sure. In simulacrum it indeed takes more hits (with adaptation) but in actual gameplay I haven't seen HUGE difference.

On 2021-04-25 at 2:55 PM, xZeromusx said:

For Gloom to reach 75% slow, you have invest a pretty significant amount of strength into Sevagoth's build.

For Xaku to reach 100% armor strip and only 50% slowness you need 200% strength. And in my opinion with Sevagoth you have more spare mod slots than Xaku.

On 2021-04-25 at 2:55 PM, xZeromusx said:

And the ability also requires investment into range to also be effective in a significant enough area.

Sevagoth, in my opinion, doesn't require (a lot) of range. Unless you want to cover whole Plains. It's even detrimental for the Gloom.

Quote

Then needing efficiency on top of everything severely limits Sev's build option.

And here I'm using 90% efficiency + Arcane energize (5/6) and Zenurik from time to time. If I can kill enemies then I can keep my Gloom for a long time.

On 2021-04-25 at 2:55 PM, xZeromusx said:

Gloom. However, Gloom's cost is not just measured in activation, but in its drain as well when enemies are inside. At 7.5 energy per second max, the cost is not insignificant. If we were to assume the same duration as The Vast Untime, the cost comes out to a whopping 237 energy, assuming at least 10 enemies are always inside its AOE. Obviously, that's not always going to be the case, but Gloom exceeds The Vast Untime's energy cost the moment 10 enemies are in its radius for only 7 seconds.

By comparing energy cost then, indeed, this ability is more expensive. However we must take into account what it does. It's not that simple. It depends what you do.

On 2021-04-25 at 2:55 PM, xZeromusx said:

Further, with Auras like Brief Respite and Augur mods, as well as the shield gating meta, duration based abilities have a significant leg up. Gloom's necessity for efficiency means that its activation cost is usually low, making benefiting from Brief Respite and Augur mods difficult. The Vast Untime however doesn't necessitate efficiency mods. Because you can still benefit from Energy Pulse and Energizing Dash while The Vast Untime is active, there's no reason to invest into efficiency. The base 100% will do. This translates to heavy shield recovery using Brief Respite and Augur mods, which translates to shield gating, and better survivability for Xaku.

The thing is Sevagoth doesn't need shield gating. If enemies cannot hit you then you need just more "power".

On 2021-04-25 at 2:55 PM, xZeromusx said:

Xaku benefits heavily from a lot of range. It allows for a larger radius for his slow. Grasp's kill radius becomes very effective at larger range, Accuse can cover more area, and Gaze can strip armor from more enemies in a larger radius. Xaku isn't hurting at all when you couple shield gating with healthy shield generation, auto kill mode in a large area, as well as perpetuating his abilities with The Vast Untime, corrupting enemies in a large radius, as well as stripping them of armor in a large radius. I can help you with a build for Xaku that I find works excellently even in SP.

Range plays important role but it's not the must.

And as for slowness it's so-so or even detrimental. Enemies can still come to you so you still have to recast it (efficiency).

13 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Or you run Adaptation to compensate for that 25% chance of getting hit.

I run my Xaku in Steel Path easily with Adaptation, and they can tank quite decently.

I don't run SP that Adaptation plays important role and 75% is just "there to prolong the pain".

13 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

But Gloom is a support ability while The Vast Untime is a nuke mode for Xaku, meaning that they get stronger with a press of a button.

How do you nuke with Vast untime? With 200% strength and even with Gaze (100% armor strip) it couldn't harm 150 Corrupted heavy gunner.

13 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

But if you want to have their Grasp of Lohk for a long time and keep the added control with Gaze, then you'll need that added duration.

And, with enough energy, that added duration can get over 10 minutes.

Of course. But:

- with 100% Gaze & GoL on active you create bot that plays for you with minimal effort. That's fine if you like it.

- other abilities doesn't need duration (you can kill Accused enemies; unless Deny kills enemies with Void beam you still have enough time to kill them) or have enough duration that's not very neccessary (Xata's whisper)

If you want to play more active then added duration is not very important.

13 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

As I said, Gloom is a support ability, requires to have a good energy consumption to keep healing, as Sevagoth is a Support/Melee frame, while Xaku is a CC/DPS frame.

Ability isn't only one thing or another.

9 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Why does Xaku needs a slow aura, when he has a damage aura via Grasp, dead enemies > slowed enemies :P

9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Xaku doesn't need a slow aura. You're correct.

It matters of preference. With Gloom I still have to play a game even it's not very dynamic. With GoL everything dies.

If I may say Xaku doesn't need bot but needs better slowness ability to make you play.

8 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Nitpicking here but Shadow does not have Gloom , Sevagoth does. Shadow is the offensive half and Sevagoth is the CC+support half.

Ah, right, my mistake.

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1 minute ago, quxier said:

It matters of preference. With Gloom I still have to play a game even it's not very dynamic. With GoL everything dies.

If I may say Xaku doesn't need bot but needs better slowness ability to make you play.

What?

What do you mean by this?

Xaku's kit is very good. They are A-tier before helminth is considered and S-tier with pretty obvious helminth interactivity. Xaku is one of the best frames in the game. They don't need a slowness ability at all.

 

Also, Gloom is a great ability and goes far into giving some frames S-tier capabilities but such an aura is not needed on anything but very specific setups on very specific frames.

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24 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

What?

What do you mean by this?

Xaku's kit is very good. They are A-tier before helminth is considered and S-tier with pretty obvious helminth interactivity. Xaku is one of the best frames in the game. They don't need a slowness ability at all.

 

Xaku can easily kill everything but it doesn't mean it's fun to play (and that's important). If you like that kind of style then that's fine. I don't want to destroy other's people fun. I, however, find it very boring. I want to do something more when I kill enemies.

So, I wouldn't mind if GoL were nerfed (damage wise) and the Vast untime changed into aura. Of course I won't suggest nerf. I just want VU to do something on their own (I'm not talking about "time freeze") because it does many things but it's not excellent at anything. I, at least, want to see slowness to be "something".

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Also, Gloom is a great ability and goes far into giving some frames S-tier capabilities but such an aura is not needed on anything but very specific setups on very specific frames.

Gloom-level aura sure, but something weaker? Why not.

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33 minutes ago, quxier said:

 

Xaku can easily kill everything but it doesn't mean it's fun to play (and that's important). If you like that kind of style then that's fine. I don't want to destroy other's people fun. I, however, find it very boring. I want to do something more when I kill enemies.

So, I wouldn't mind if GoL were nerfed (damage wise) and the Vast untime changed into aura. Of course I won't suggest nerf. I just want VU to do something on their own (I'm not talking about "time freeze") because it does many things but it's not excellent at anything. I, at least, want to see slowness to be "something".

Gloom-level aura sure, but something weaker? Why not.

So you want to change xakus kit because you dont find it fun to play. Who is making you use xaku? Just play a different frame if you dont like their gameplay. 

Frames should not be universally liked, and the change you suggest is simply not needed and would contradict how xaku works in their effective builds. Putting gloom on xaku is what you should do if you want a slow aura, not changing their kit to add it by default. 

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21 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

So you want to change xakus kit because you dont find it fun to play. Who is making you use xaku? Just play a different frame if you dont like their gameplay.

Not exactly.

First I like Xaku but not whole kit.

Secondly, I don't want to change it to fit my play but, in my opinion, fix something that should be from the start. There is "slowness" effect that you need high strength to even see it. I think things like aura around frame would be nice too show it.

39 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

would contradict how xaku works in their effective builds.

How it would contradict? I'm curious.

41 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Putting gloom on xaku is what you should do if you want a slow aura, not changing their kit to add it by default. 

It's too expensive but I might put my one and only Sevagoth into it.

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47 minutes ago, quxier said:

Not exactly.

First I like Xaku but not whole kit.

Secondly, I don't want to change it to fit my play but, in my opinion, fix something that should be from the start. There is "slowness" effect that you need high strength to even see it. I think things like aura around frame would be nice too show it.

How it would contradict? I'm curious.

It's too expensive but I might put my one and only Sevagoth into it.

Xaku is a DPS frame. 

Your suggestion to change their 4 to be a CC ability, while reducing the damage output of Grasp of Lohk is directly contradictory to the theme of the frame.

 

Your opinion that something needs fixed in Xaku's kit is just blatantly incorrect. You expect Xaku to work differently than they do. Xaku is a DPS frame through and through. They strip armor/shields, have scaling damage, can apply damage boosting, can buff damage... 

You see the theme? Everything they have is bent on killing potential. Changing the 4 to output a slow aura is entirely pointless when their kit is designed to kill enemies exceptionally fast. It is simply not needed to slow enemies down...

Your expectation of how Xaku -should- work is not consistent with how they -do- work. You're taking an A-tier frame and applying C-tier changes to them.

 

Edit: also it should be noted that slow auras without considerable amount slowed are pointless. Anything less than 60% is not that heplful imo. 

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3 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Xaku is a DPS frame. 

Your suggestion to change their 4 to be a CC ability, while reducing the damage output of Grasp of Lohk is directly contradictory to the theme of the frame.

 

Your opinion that something needs fixed in Xaku's kit is just blatantly incorrect. You expect Xaku to work differently than they do. Xaku is a DPS frame through and through. They strip armor/shields, have scaling damage, can apply damage boosting, can buff damage... 

You see the theme? Everything they have is bent on killing potential. Changing the 4 to output a slow aura is entirely pointless when their kit is designed to kill enemies exceptionally fast. It is simply not needed to slow enemies down...

Your expectation of how Xaku -should- work is not consistent with how they -do- work. You're taking an A-tier frame and applying C-tier changes to them.

I see what you mean. I thought this would be some huge problem if they changed VU.

As for DPS, it's not only DPS.

Xata's Wisper is small crowd control ability (you need high status)

Part of GoL (it's not big after nerf but it's still there) disarm enemies.

Accuse mind control enemies.

Deny hover them in the air if they survive.

 

3 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Edit: also it should be noted that slow auras without considerable amount slowed are pointless. Anything less than 60% is not that heplful imo. 

Yes, Xaku have "problem" with this as well. I think I've posted about it some "Xaku threads". However this may be "balance factor" - to get high slowness you would need sacrifice some mod slots instead of energy (as for Gloom).

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On 2021-04-26 at 6:43 PM, quxier said:

How do you nuke with Vast untime? With 200% strength and even with Gaze (100% armor strip) it couldn't harm 150 Corrupted heavy gunner.

With enough range you can get 10 or more guns with Grasp of Lohk, and with 200% strenght they can kill enemies that are too close to you.

And if you don't like Grasp of Lohk, Xata's Whisper gives extra Void damage to weapons, and (at least in my experience) that extra damage can melt enemies with a decent primary or secondary.

On 2021-04-26 at 6:43 PM, quxier said:

Ability isn't only one thing or another.

Actually, some abilities are two things at the same time, and Gloom is a support ability with some soft CC with the slowness.

And I say soft CC because hard CC is what Vauban can do, disabling all enemies in an entire room. Usually most frames have soft CC or normal CC, not many have hard CC.

On 2021-04-26 at 6:43 PM, quxier said:

- with 100% Gaze & GoL on active you create bot that plays for you with minimal effort. That's fine if you like it.

- other abilities doesn't need duration (you can kill Accused enemies; unless Deny kills enemies with Void beam you still have enough time to kill them) or have enough duration that's not very neccessary (Xata's whisper)

Well, first, GoL is a close to mid range bot, yes. People have issues with this and someone said that GoL should shoot when you attack, defeating the passive protection porpouse of GoL. I would say to nerf the shooting range of GoL to have it be more defensive and make players more active, but people would complain a lot about that, so GoL won't be changed in the near future, the ability is fine as it is.

And second, having an anti-defense field for over 10 minutes is extremely helpful, as well as having GoL that time too. Deny can help, but usually controlled enemies vs enemies aren't strong because their damage doesn't scale as well as their health, shields and armor, and Deny is too expensive for what it does (costs 75 energy and feels like a 25 energy ability). The only ability that doesn't require that added duration as much is Whisper, being a cheap ability with great base duration, but 10 minutes of not recasting 3 of the 4 abilities is a big deal (of course, if you have enough energy to spare, Xaku isn't great in Sanctuary because of this and short missions doesn't require all their abilities at all).

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On 2021-04-28 at 1:36 PM, ElecDeathblade said:

With enough range you can get 10 or more guns with Grasp of Lohk, and with 200% strenght they can kill enemies that are too close to you.

And if you don't like Grasp of Lohk, Xata's Whisper gives extra Void damage to weapons, and (at least in my experience) that extra damage can melt enemies with a decent primary or secondary.

I meant VU won't nuke but other abilities.

On 2021-04-28 at 1:36 PM, ElecDeathblade said:

10 minutes of not recasting 3 of the 4 abilities is a big deal

Ok, but it's not the end of world if you need to press few buttons every few minutes.

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2 hours ago, quxier said:

I meant VU won't nuke but other abilities.

Yeah, but I said a nuke mode for Xaku, not a literal nuke like Equinox's Maim.

The ability actively makes Xaku stronger, slowing enemies and making them more vulnerable to void damage instantly on a press (take in consideration that GoL deals pure void damage) and makes Xaku recieve less damage for the duration of the ability.

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