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Gloom has Enemy Limit Energy Cost... What About Equinox' Pacify & Provoke?


Rasdan
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Both abilities are similar in terms of energy drain.

  • Gloom has energy drain with a cap of 10 Enemies.
  • Pacify & Provoke has energy drain but no enemy cap.

 

However, these two abilities are different in energy gain:

  • Gloom is a channeled ability, thus any source of energy regeneration and Trinity 2 is revoked. Only Energy Orbs and Damage>Health mods work on it.
  • Pacify & Provoke isn't really a "channeled" ability. You can still gain energy from all sources. With high energy drain build, Zen Dash is highly recommended.

I suggest DE to streamline both of these abilities. Pacify-Provoke with a hard cap and works like every channeled abilities.

 

I'm satisfied enough that all sources of slows (Nova 4, Sevagoth 3, Equinox Peaceful Provocation, and Zen Blast) all stacks multiplicatively. Making it redundant to stack them.

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4 hours ago, Rasdan said:

I suggest DE to streamline both of these abilities. Pacify-Provoke with a hard cap and works like every channeled abilities.

 

No, thats a massive nerf.
Just let equi keep her stored 4 and 3 augment values and 1 have a instant swap. Cap at 5 energy for pacify could be a thing but really it doesnt matter when it would take 25~ enemies on any sensible build to reach that.
 

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1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

No, thats a massive nerf.
Just let equi keep her stored 4 and 3 augment values and 1 have a instant swap. Cap at 5 energy for pacify could be a thing but really it doesnt matter when it would take 25~ enemies on any sensible build to reach that.
 

A nerf? How? With the current drain values she would loose like 0.5 energy per sec... Doesn't seem anything game breaking for me. And how keeping stored damage of her 3rd when switching would improve her? The gameplay would simply be 1 minute in night, storing damage for her 4th, switching and nuking (8 seconds at best) and then switching again and repeat. That would only benefit her night form.

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17 minutes ago, (PSN)LordWengeanCe said:

A nerf? How? With the current drain values she would loose like 0.5 energy per sec... Doesn't seem anything game breaking for me. And how keeping stored damage of her 3rd when switching would improve her? The gameplay would simply be 1 minute in night, storing damage for her 4th, switching and nuking (8 seconds at best) and then switching again and repeat. That would only benefit her night form.

It isn't a nerf at all. The person is mistaken.

The energy drain from pacify can quickly outclass Gloom. Considering it also has a lower upper cap to the reduction in speed AND an augment slot requirement it makes absolutely no sense for it to be more expensive to maintain than Gloom.

Being able to spam energy pads does not make the poor energy consumption okay now that we've seen a good energy drain model implemented for Gloom.

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28 minutes ago, (PSN)LordWengeanCe said:

A nerf? How? With the current drain values she would loose like 0.5 energy per sec... Doesn't seem anything game breaking for me. And how keeping stored damage of her 3rd when switching would improve her? The gameplay would simply be 1 minute in night, storing damage for her 4th, switching and nuking (8 seconds at best) and then switching again and repeat. That would only benefit her night form.

By losing access to all non-flat forms of energy gain when not prepping 4.
And by keeping 4 and augment 3 values when form switching would actually make form switching a part of the gameloop instead of discarded in 99% of cases to just go ham on one forms effects. Also no it would benefit Equinox because she is one frame.

16 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The energy drain from pacify can quickly outclass Gloom.

If you're failing to proceed with the gameloop or being passive. Turning it into a regular channeled ability is still a massive nerf tho.

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8 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

If you're failing to proceed with the gameloop or being passive. Turning it into a regular channeled ability is still a massive nerf tho.

I hard disagree to this. In a team of 4 it is fairly common for large numbers of enemies to enter the radius of pacify; especially if you are playing steel path survival missions.

The energy drain is less an issue in sparsely populated game modes and/or regions but it definitely has drain potential that outclases gloom significantly.

I tested Gloom and Pacify on Equinox and Gloom is simply better in every way. More manageable drain, higher slow potential, life steal on hit, no augment.

By capping the drain you wouldn't need these extra energy sources. Gloom is far easier to maintain than pacify using the same build for both abilities (30m range, max slow, max efficiency).

Edited by Leqesai
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5 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

By losing access to all non-flat forms of energy gain when not prepping 4.
And by keeping 4 and augment 3 values when form switching would actually make form switching a part of the gameloop instead of discarded in 99% of cases to just go ham on one forms effects. Also no it would benefit Equinox because she is one frame.

If you're failing to proceed with the gameloop or being passive. Turning it into a regular channeled ability is still a massive nerf tho.

I currently have a configuration built around Gloom, Pacify and Mend and I assure you that energy isn't missing at all. Giving Pacify a cap on energy spent isn't going to change much for efficiency.

Giving Equinox the ability to retain stacks on her 3rd on switching (that isn't the most effective ability to slow enemies, considering also that you need to use an augment mod) isn't going to promote the "gameloop", is, as I said before (and like you pointed out) a way to passively play Equinox, that is switching form only to nuke. By letting her keeping stacks you only promote one form over the other in the end.

And about Equinox being "one frame"... seriously? She's one frame due to old mechanics.

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2 minutes ago, (PSN)LordWengeanCe said:

I currently have a configuration built around Gloom, Pacify and Mend and I assure you that energy isn't missing at all. Giving Pacify a cap on energy spent isn't going to change much for efficiency.

Giving Equinox the ability to retain stacks on her 3rd on switching (that isn't the most effective ability to slow enemies, considering also that you need to use an augment mod) isn't going to promote the "gameloop", is, as I said before (and like you pointed out) a way to passively play Equinox, that is switching form only to nuke. By letting her keeping stacks you only promote one form over the other in the end.

And about Equinox being "one frame"... seriously? She's one frame due to old mechanics.

You are using Gloom and Pacify together actively? I assume you are not using the augment then because in my testing it didn't seem to affect the overall slow that much. It sounds like you've gone all in on a defensive setup with equinox. Is this correct?

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Just now, Leqesai said:

You are using Gloom and Pacify together actively? I assume you are not using the augment then because in my testing it didn't seem to affect the overall slow that much. It sounds like you've gone all in on a defensive setup with equinox. Is this correct?

No, not using augment. 

Yes about defense. Until now Gloom is the only ability that can avoid certain death on SP for Day Equinox and a nice addition to her Night ability pool by my experience.

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14 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I hard disagree to this. In a team of 4 it is fairly common for large numbers of enemies to enter the radius of pacify; especially if you are playing steel path survival missions.

The energy drain is less an issue in sparsely populated game modes and/or regions but it definitely has drain potential that outclases gloom significantly.

I tested Gloom and Pacify on Equinox and Gloom is simply better in every way. More manageable drain, higher slow potential, life steal on hit, no augment.

By capping the drain you wouldn't need these extra energy sources. Gloom is far easier to maintain than pacify using the same build for both abilities (30m range, max slow, max efficiency).

Unless you go hog on range (over 200% which would be way over the 30m range you noted) you should, with any reasonable loadout, be more than capable keep cleaning up to have way sub 25 enemies in radius. Lower drain, gives DR, doesnt prevent non-flat energy regen letting you use sleep more vs non-aug slow and lifesteal is entirely on you for preference with helmy.

Making it a channeled ability is just a flat nerf tho no matter what way you spin it.

7 minutes ago, (PSN)LordWengeanCe said:

I currently have a configuration built around Gloom, Pacify and Mend and I assure you that energy isn't missing at all. Giving Pacify a cap on energy spent isn't going to change much for efficiency.

Giving Equinox the ability to retain stacks on her 3rd on switching (that isn't the most effective ability to slow enemies, considering also that you need to use an augment mod) isn't going to promote the "gameloop", is, as I said before (and like you pointed out) a way to passively play Equinox, that is switching form only to nuke. By letting her keeping stacks you only promote one form over the other in the end.

And about Equinox being "one frame"... seriously? She's one frame due to old mechanics.

The nerf isnt giving it a cap, its about turning it into a channeled ability, since even without a cap it doesnt matter unless you're afk or failing massively/have a bad loadout.
And yes it would improve her gameloop because youd actually form swap, you know, the crux and core idea of the frame?
AND YOU CANT PROMOTE ONE FORM OVER THE OTHER WHEN ITS ALL PART OF THE SAME PACKAGE CALLED EQUINOX.

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6 hours ago, Rasdan said:

Gloom is a channeled ability, thus any source of energy regeneration and Trinity 2 is revoked

You need "upgraded" Zenurik Operator + special Syandana (or whatever it's spelled) to get energy from Zenurik dash & from Orbs. /joke

While you are Glooming you can get energy from Zenurik's dash or orbs. I'm not sure how it works when you have enemies around you.

ps. not sure if it's important in this topic but... It's good to know

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22 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

AND YOU CANT PROMOTE ONE FORM OVER THE OTHER WHEN ITS ALL PART OF THE SAME PACKAGE CALLED EQUINOX.

How keeping stored 80% slow on her Night promotes her Day form? How strength bonus from her Day affect Equinox in her Night form?

Edit: I need to better explain myself. To me Equinox should be able to actually get benefits from both forms simultaneously. It may sound too overpowered but when you actually play with two frames simultaneously, and not one at the time, things may get complicated. Said that I still need to understand how strength on her day form is useful to her. The real reason to keep damage stored on her 3rd is to keep enemies slowed at max percentage when switching to night, promoting night form. 

Edited by (PSN)LordWengeanCe
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20 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Unless you go hog on range (over 200% which would be way over the 30m range you noted) you should, with any reasonable loadout, be more than capable keep cleaning up to have way sub 25 enemies in radius. Lower drain, gives DR, doesnt prevent non-flat energy regen letting you use sleep more vs non-aug slow and lifesteal is entirely on you for preference with helmy.

Making it a channeled ability is just a flat nerf tho no matter what way you spin it.

The nerf isnt giving it a cap, its about turning it into a channeled ability, since even without a cap it doesnt matter unless you're afk or failing massively/have a bad loadout.
And yes it would improve her gameloop because youd actually form swap, you know, the crux and core idea of the frame?
AND YOU CANT PROMOTE ONE FORM OVER THE OTHER WHEN ITS ALL PART OF THE SAME PACKAGE CALLED EQUINOX.

You are certainly passionate but i still hard disagree to your assessment of the energy drain on pacify being a nerf if changed to work like gloom. 

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44 minutes ago, (PSN)LordWengeanCe said:

 It may sound too overpowered but when you actually play with two frames simultaneously,

You arent playing two different frames, its the same toolkit. Only if it switching forms to use the abilities appropriate for the situation werent also cancelling everything you did, her core game loop might actually be efficient then instead of people going hog on one form and sticking to it effectively dropping from a 7 ability frame to a 3 one.

45 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

You are certainly passionate but i still hard disagree to your assessment of the energy drain on pacify being a nerf if changed to work like gloom. 

>disagreeing on objectively factual case nerfing a ability wouldnt be nerfing it despite it losing mechanical functions of resource gain for no reason compared to its current state

Ok.

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7 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

You arent playing two different frames, its the same toolkit. Only if it switching forms to use the abilities appropriate for the situation werent also cancelling everything you did, her core game loop might actually be efficient then instead of people going hog on one form and sticking to it effectively dropping from a 7 ability frame to a 3 one.

Ok, maybe I just play Equinox wrong then and maybe I just got wrong the duality thing she's got going on. My bad. Anyway you're talking about modifying the mechanics of an augment mod, that is totally optional and, like many would agree, not that useful when compared to other abilities (like Gloom or even Rest) and that's not going to change the fact that, when I'm not using that mod, I'm using only one of her forms. Warframe doesn't give much situational options in one game, if I go survival I prefer a tank (Night) if I go defense I need to kill enemies quickly (Day). There would be no incentive to switch form, it would only benefits one build, used maybe by 5 people out of 25. And that "improvement" would as well let players use only 3 of her abilities (Pacify, Metamorphosis, Maim) and repeat.

Anyway, about energy, non flat Energy gains are not that indispensable. The only two that avoid being drained in seconds are Rage mod and Arcane Energise, from which I still get that extra energy. So I don't know what you were going for when you called it a nerf. And Zenurik is not that viable when used on a non-caster frame but a channelling one.

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48 minutes ago, (PSN)LordWengeanCe said:

Ok, maybe I just play Equinox wrong then and maybe I just got wrong the duality thing she's got going on. My bad. Anyway you're talking about modifying the mechanics of an augment mod, that is totally optional and, like many would agree, not that useful when compared to other abilities (like Gloom or even Rest) and that's not going to change the fact that, when I'm not using that mod, I'm using only one of her forms. Warframe doesn't give much situational options in one game, if I go survival I prefer a tank (Night) if I go defense I need to kill enemies quickly (Day). There would be no incentive to switch form, it would only benefits one build, used maybe by 5 people out of 25. And that "improvement" would as well let players use only 3 of her abilities (Pacify, Metamorphosis, Maim) and repeat.

There isnt really a playing wrong thing and im talking more about actually synching her kit so that at the levels the other person mentioned (30+ min in kuva steel path survival) you actually have a clean gameloop that can be as effective as just sticking to one form without being extremely finnicky (think of how nagging old saryn was on a spore build that wasnt stacking them on molt or the tons of mini problems Titania had with not just razorfly upkeep but also enemy control lantern being a non-storing invul, etc).
Its because doing mid action swaps is such a both a delayed action but more notably disruptive to buildup thing that people treat the 2 halves as separate frames when its all part of the same kit.

And there already is a incentive to keep switching (mid mission), both for maximizing damage amp via provoke>pacify and in keeping the swap buffs up.
And for 4 it already has the augment that lets the swap keep all stored value so if someone wants to ignore 4/7th of the kit thats on them and already a option (and with that limit you dont need strength at all nor over 40% duration so you are 2 mod slots open from typical builds).

48 minutes ago, (PSN)LordWengeanCe said:

Anyway, about energy, non flat Energy gains are not that indispensable. The only two that avoid being drained in seconds are Rage mod and Arcane Energise, from which I still get that extra energy. So I don't know what you were going for when you called it a nerf. And Zenurik is not that viable when used on a non-caster frame but a channelling one.

How is zenurik not viable when my problem is the very point that a ability that with some basic effort you can have up 24/7 due to it or a few alternatives wouldnt be able to do so anymore without ignoring a massive damage+safety boost from sleep (as youd swap to a mid or even negative efficiency HA/Rage setup and wouldnt bother trying to use night 4 nore care to try and maximize maim pops) if it did become a channeling skill.
 

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Sorry but I still don't get how that would be an improvement for her Day form.

Don't want to get rhetorical but if she's only one Warframe (one Warframe with 2 toolkits) why should two different abilities of her be compatible? Is like saying that Mirage 1st and 4th should receive an augment that lets them be compatible somehow (sorry but I don't have a fitting example). Is like saying to render Equinox's 3rd and her "6th" ability compatible somehow. 

Not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have her stacks always up after switching form but if she's one frame she's one frame and her abilities shouldn't be necessarily compatible with one another. And I strongly believe that that isn't going to improve her that much overall.

And about the OP topic, that is energy consumption, giving a cap to her 3rd would be useful. At the current state, when you actually need it you can't always afford it. Five energy per sec, although nice, isn't the only way to keep energy up.

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