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My thoughts on the Warframe Community and why I believe alot of it's problem comes from a paradox of Hedonism


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Today I want to discuss the Metaphor and Fragment of Hedonism that is Warframe’s Community. The utilitarian philosopher Henry Sidwig was first to note in The Methods of Ethics that the paradox of Hedonism is that pleasure cannot be acquired directly. Now this is my first point, Hedonism paradox is the ideology that TRUE pleasure cannot be acquired by striving for pleasure. Happiness is often imprecisely equated with pleasure. If, for whatever reason, one does equate happiness with pleasure, then the paradox of hedonism arises. When one aims solely towards pleasure itself, one's aim is frustrated. Now that I set the basic laws of Hedonism and the main focus of Warframe in my opinion and this essay.
To start I think Warframe is a great but flawed game, it is extremely great but I want to start a discussion. That of meaning and thought instead of your average “HAHA INAROS BAD AND BOTTOM TIER. WISP FUNNY WORD MEANING THAT OF SPRITES BUT HAS A DOUBLE MEANING REFERRING TO HER BOTTOM” Okay so I think the idea of playing Warframe is completely that of Pleasure Paradox. I think I am speaking for a lot of people that the grind of Warframe is monotonous and a constant act of catharsis. Even fake difficulty for some users (their words.) where I do not believe these things I think it fully outlines the act of seeking pleasure but even when you are met with what you wanted it just doesn’t feel enough. Warframe’s state is all about seeking something, getting it, putting work into it, and being rewarded for the work you did. Alot of players get this and have mentioned how they feel like that’s fun for them, quite literally it was a direction for Warframe.
But the problem arises when Warframe is not taken in moderation and pleasure seekers drive after everything either taking the easiest route or doing it far too much. Greek thinker Epicurus was also a hedonist and tied it to a virtue ethics system based around moderation. He argued that moderation leads to the most happiness for the individual in the long run. I argue he is right, using Warframe as evidence for this theory. Players push themselves far too much in Warframe to get everything or set their standards to unreachable standards because they seek pleasure in warframe and keep getting met with momentary happiness and then they feel that’s not enough and set their standards abit higher and then higher until the updates stop being good enough for their delusional requirements for a good update and start ignoring facts and common sense to excuse their delusion. I think this is a factor of Hedonism Paradox. I rest my case.

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18 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Nice word salad. Maybe use better formatting if you intend for people to actually understand it.

I understood it completely, so I think that's a You problem, not an issue with the prose.

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I think my only qualm with this post is the use of the term "Warframe Community", as if there's some majority of players that might hold this negative perspective; there are so many different attitudes, play styles, and viewpoints here.  So I would say that in the use of that terminology, too broad of a net is being cast.

But that said, I've certainly seen plenty of people who push themselves too far and treat Warframe like a destination, as opposed to a journey.  I've found that my time with Warframe is the happiest if I respect the journey just as much as the destination, which is to say that my moment-to-moment pursuit of a goal needs to be something I'm enjoying.  If I'm not enjoying myself, it's time to take a break and try again some other time.

Tangentially related: I don't like meditating, and I never want to do it...but I have found that when I take 10 minutes to meditate, it often changes the to-do list in my head; the items that I felt compelled to do, but that wouldn't truly be necessary or bring me joy, disappear from it, and it's easier to find something to do that will bring me joy.  For anyone who feels like they've gotta get everything as fast as possible in Warframe, I wonder if something like this might help?

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6 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Nice word salad. Maybe use better formatting if you intend for people to actually understand it.

It seems pretty obvious that the author is likely a non-native speaker, and considering that fact they did a great job of communicating their ideas.  It takes a bit more work on the readers' part, granted, but if you don't want to listen to anyone unless their English is perfect, you'll miss out on some wonderful interactions with some wonderful people. <3

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17 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Tangentially related: I don't like meditating, and I never want to do it...but I have found that when I take 10 minutes to meditate, it often changes the to-do list in my head; the items that I felt compelled to do, but that wouldn't truly be necessary or bring me joy, disappear from it, and it's easier to find something to do that will bring me joy.  For anyone who feels like they've gotta get everything as fast as possible in Warframe, I wonder if something like this might help?

I know a large number of Gamers that need to 'hear' this from someone they will actually heed.

IMO, a whole lot of people have forgotten games are Entertainment, not Tasks, because so many think they have to 'play them all, right now' because of peer pressure, corporate ad campaigns, etc.

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On 2021-04-27 at 2:25 PM, (PSN)Unstar said:

I've certainly seen plenty of people who push themselves too far and treat Warframe like a destination, as opposed to a journey.  I've found that my time with Warframe is the happiest if I respect the journey just as much as the destination, which is to say that my moment-to-moment pursuit of a goal needs to be something I'm enjoying.  If I'm not enjoying myself, it's time to take a break and try again some other time.

I completely agree with this. I personally think a fair majority of the desire for/discussion around endgame in Warframe is related to a destination vs journey thing. I do see a lot of players seeming to view the primary game play elements as frustrating barriers to the real desirable experience they are looking to reach after finishing the game's content.

This certainly isn't to disregard the matters of difficulty/replayability/increased story immersion/etc that are often discussed. Rather, ime if the journey of getting to the end of a game or portion of content isn't mostly enjoyable for a player, they are unlikely to enjoy anything that would be attained upon reaching the end of it (whether it's new playable content, fashion, better gear, etc.)

Anyways, don't want to pile on anyone. Just really get the feeling I'm playing a different game from others sometimes, haha. Think it really depends on what the individual finds satisfying in a game vs. the degree to which Warframe itself is compatible with what they're looking for

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I think you are over simplifying the Psychological Trap that is Warframe....

It's true that yes the Warframe experience essentially boils down to "Do This... Get Rewarded".... However you need to understand that people have what you call a "Root Cause" that dictate why they grind the things they grind for.... 

Warframe is designed around breaking down and Daisy Chaining Smaller Grinds based on the Root Cause that you are grinding after....

For example.... Someone might want a Delux Skin or Syandana.... This serves as their Root Cause Motivation for grinding.... Since this stuff costs platinum.... You will drawn to content that will yield items that you can sell for Content.... But that content has requirements of its own.... Sure you can get Stuff to sell by Doing Fissures but what do you need to do Fissures Consistently.... Oh.... You need Relics.... But that content where relics drop Consistently might require you to have better mods and equipment, hence you then look for which content allows you to do that.... Then you find that you need credits so you need to do index on top of that....and so on and so forth....

 

Ofcourse from an Outside perspective it seems like people are just running around being dissapointed even when they get what they want..... But seriously.... Nobody actually wants Endo.... What they want is the resources that allows them to upgrade the mod which allows them to use the gun that allows them to consistently do the content  where they can farm the resource that they can use to stock pile the McGuffins that they can eventually sell on the Market.... To get the PLATINUM to finally buy The Syandana !!!

This is Warframe in a nutshell.... Doing 27 Things you're not interested in to get the one thing you want...

 

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2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I think you are over simplifying the Psychological Trap that is Warframe....

It's true that yes the Warframe experience essentially boils down to "Do This... Get Rewarded".... However you need to understand that people have what you call a "Root Cause" that dictate why they grind the things they grind for.... 

Warframe is designed around breaking down and Daisy Chaining Smaller Grinds based on the Root Cause that you are grinding after....

For example.... Someone might want a Delux Skin or Syandana.... This serves as their Root Cause Motivation for grinding.... Since this stuff costs platinum.... You will drawn to content that will yield items that you can sell for Content.... But that content has requirements of its own.... Sure you can get Stuff to sell by Doing Fissures but what do you need to do Fissures Consistently.... Oh.... You need Relics.... But that content where relics drop Consistently might require you to have better mods and equipment, hence you then look for which content allows you to do that.... Then you find that you need credits so you need to do index on top of that....and so on and so forth....

Ofcourse from an Outside perspective it seems like people are just running around being dissapointed even when they get what they want..... But seriously.... Nobody actually wants Endo.... What they want is the resources that allows them to upgrade the mod which allows them to use the gun that allows them to consistently do the content  where they can farm the resource that they can use to stock pile the McGuffins that they can eventually sell on the Market.... To get the PLATINUM to finally buy The Syandana !!!

This is Warframe in a nutshell.... Doing 27 Things you're not interested in to get the one thing you want...

IMO, what you describe is still a Masochist over a Gamer, not that they are mutually exclusive.

For example, I would just spend money on a cosmetic over interacting with others to sell parts for plat.

The parts of the game you imply one would do as chores, I just don't do, I just play the parts I find Fun, pure Hedonistic behavior.

What you describe is just playing WF, IMO, and if that's not Fun, then don't do it.

IMO/IME, it's all about ones personal outlook. If one views an activity in game as a Chore, that's on the player, if one views it as Fun, that's on the player.

If one finds things to be a Chore in a game, I suggest finding another game, not trying to justify doing something one does not enjoy with ones free time.

To the specific point taken to the logical extreme, no one wants any of the virtual items, levels, glyphs, etc. they just want to be Entertained.

Either the game is Entertaining for the player, or it's not.

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1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

IMO, what you describe is still a Masochist over a Gamer, not that they are mutually exclusive.

No what I just described is your Average Tenno..... Pick anyone out at Random and this is likely how they go about playing the game....

A masochist is what I used to be.... Get Everything, Do Everything....

It comes as no surprise that I  Removed the game eventually.... I just couldn't do it anymore. 

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

For example, I would just spend money on a cosmetic over interacting with others to sell parts for plat.

I suppose you would but the thing is neither of us know what the actual Ratio is between Spenders and Free Loaders is....

I myself am Technically both since I have two Warframe accounts... One where I did spend real money and the other where I didn't.

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

 

The parts of the game you imply one would do as chores, I just don't do, I just play the parts I find Fun, pure Hedonistic behavior.

They don't have to be chores.... I reckon most players have no strong feelings good or bad torwards the majority of the Activities in the game... 

Hence they can still justify doing them simply because: "Meh... I don't Mind..." Hell I bet this is what DE Strives for when they come up with content ideas.... Crap that people don't mind doing. 

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

 

IMO/IME, it's all about ones personal outlook. If one views an activity in game as a Chore, that's on the player, if one views it as Fun, that's on the player.

The problem is people's personal Outlook is subject to Manipulation...

I know it's fun to sit on your High Horse and claim people are the Masters of their own experience therefor if they are miserable then it's their Fault.... But this way of thinking is what allows Questionable Design Decisions like the Crap Farm Ville  use to do to manipulate players to survive as long as they did....

I think it's important to ensure the right amount of Blame is going to right people.... 

Some of it will go the Devs, some will go to the Player Individual.... And some will go the players (as a community)...

 

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

 

If one finds things to be a Chore in a game, I suggest finding another game, not trying to justify doing something one does not enjoy with ones free time.

Makes for a great forum post and fortune cookie but isnt particular helpful for two reasons:

1) in all Likelyhood that is probably what most gamers do already... I reckon most human beans are pretty smart and so if something just doesn't do it for them they can move on just fine without needing to be told.... I reckon they exercise this phenomenon constantly without fail.... Ofcourse it can be hard to believe that when you see a bunch of Cry Babies such as myself here in the Forum's but I don't think that's an indication of anything....

2) No game is perfect.... Further more since developers experience their Creations in a completely way from the players.... They may not be able pin point exactly what's wrong with their Creations.... This is why Feedback is important....

Obviously whether players realise it or not even something as simple as just quitting and playing something counts as feedback.... However without a Salty Forum Post explaining why that player quit the developers won't have much to go on when or if they decide to make changes based on this Data.... 

So running around telling people to play something else doesn't Help Warframe....  Sure it removes all the Salty Cry Babies and I'm assuming that's the real real reason why people peddle that Advice all the time.... But ultimately it's not helpful.

 

Ofcourse... This doesn't mean there aren't situations where it doesn't apply so I guess I should come up with way to Differentiate when that advice makes sense and when it doesn't:

If someone is constantly complaining about something that clearly isn't a good fit for a particularly game, for example if I keep crying about Warframe not having a Mideivil Aesthetic then yeah... That's obviously a go play something Candidate right there....

But if someone is complaining about something that actually makes sense within the game's context, like Nullifiers running the experience.... Then yeah it's not particularly helpful to break out the Play Something Else advice.... 

And trust me... I know.... I actually did follow this Advice and all that does further my conviction that Warframe is on the wrong because it's the only game that doesn't fix those issues....

2 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Either the game is Entertaining for the player, or it's not.

I sincerely hope you don't apply this logic to your relationships with people aswell 😱 !!!

Much in the same way that their aspect of a person characteristics you like more than other or even aspects you dislike.... The same applies how we view everything else including Video Games....

It's even worse factor in that we have a terrible way of Quantifying the things we like versus the things don't so for all we know there might be people who don't realise there are more things they dislike about Warframe than they do like.... 

 

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28 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

 

I sincerely hope you don't apply this logic to your relationships with people aswell 😱 !!!

 

I pretty much live my entire life by the philosophy of "I do what I want, when I want, for as long as I want, with whom I want". Said the phrase as a mantra for about 38 years now IIRC.

As for the rest...

IMO, you have found that WF does not work as Entertainment for you and that's awesome, I wish others would do the same with their Personal Agency when an entertainment vehicle is no longer entertaining.

WF is far from perfect, like most Entertainment IME, but it's fun and entertaining to me. Perfection is over-rated, IME.

If a game is not fun and entertaining for someone, regardless of the reason, then my suggestion will always be "then don't play/do that (part)", IMO, that's just common sense.

The rest is all noise in some attempt to peel back the layers of the mechanism that creates the dopamine hits, or what I just refer to as "the minutiae". I have nothing to say about the minutiae of WF, I have no desire to deconstruct it in some effort to tell myself the time I spend playing the game is productive, because if a game brings my Joy and Entertainment when I want it, then I am not wasting my time from my POV, it's just that simple.

IMO/IME it's just common sense to not play games, or parts thereof, for entertainment that one does not find entertaining. I stop playing WF and start playing other games most days. I end up playing 2-3 games a day, depending on what I find fun in the moment.

Why people try and twist this into some missive about game companies manipulating gamers is silly. Duh? All of these things are built to capture ones attention and keep it, that's the point of making interesting interactive entertainment, and if that's what someone is looking for then they can decide if it's what they want or not.

WF is just another video game, regardless of how some players choose to treat it.

It's all about outlook, IMO.

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The true path to enjoying life is not to recklessly pursue all pleasures and to abandon or destroy anything else, but to relieve yourself of the burdens resting on our shoulders. To do that, people must become aware of what weighs them down most heavily.

You are your own worst enemy.

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