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Small improvement to murmur farming


xZeromusx

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I like the current Kuva Lich system for the most part. You search out larvalings, farm murmurs, figure out the requiem combination, kill the lich, profit.

But the current system favors blindly testing combinations until you can unlock all three of the requiems. When the lich spawns in a mission, and you still don't know the proper combination, you have two choices: blindly test what you do have, or fight them off until they go away. They'll corrupt enemies near by while you fight them, and you can get murmurs that way, or you can get 10 for blindly testing the combination you currently have. If you do fight them off, you get no murmurs from them though, regardless of if they corrupted any enemies nearby, assuming there were any nearby to corrupt. Meanwhile, if you do decide to blindly test, and fail, you get 10, but you also level them up, which can quickly become annoying.

So, make fighting them off as incentivized as testing a requiem combination. I.e. reward 10 murmurs regardless of if you fight them off or test a combination.

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7 hours ago, xZeromusx said:

So, make fighting them off as incentivized as testing a requiem combination. I.e. reward 10 echoes regardless of if you fight them off or test a combination.

Disagree, something that rewards you - and your Squad - for taking a chance is a good thing IMO.

Also, if you're not comfortable fighting level 5 Liches, maybe don't go after Liches just yet.
Take your time, work on your Mods and stuff, get some Frames that help melt Liches more easily.

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4 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Disagree, something that rewards you - and your Squad - for taking a chance is a good thing IMO.

 

This:

OP's proposal is essentially: get 10 free murmurs whenever anyone's Lich shows up just for shooting them 3 times.

 

Think of it this way OP: the 10 murmurs for a failed stab is Not Meant to be your primary source of murmurs, its just a 'consolation prize' to help you out a little because the Lich just levelled up. From that perspective, if you don't stab and they don't level up; why should you expect to get anything?

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On 2021-04-27 at 7:57 PM, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

They're called murmurs, not echoes. Nobody has ever called them echoes.

Ahh, I think I got my game vocabulary mixed up, probably from Dark Souls or something. Thanks.

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Disagree, something that rewards you - and your Squad - for taking a chance is a good thing IMO.

Also, if you're not comfortable fighting level 5 Liches, maybe don't go after Liches just yet.
Take your time, work on your Mods and stuff, get some Frames that help melt Liches more easily.

I'm MR 30 and I'm prefectly capable of taking on a level 5 Lich. Not everyone is though. However, this is less about simply their difficulty and more about how the system incentivizes just performing a test to farm murmurs faster. 10 murmurs is a good chunk of progress. It is also the fact that, in a squad, your allies are expecting you to perform the test rather than fight the lich off so they can also get that chunk of murmurs for their progress AND so that their lich also has a chance to spawn during the mission.

Giving more incentive to do the fight instead allows players to not feel pressured to simply test so their squad can quickly move on with the mission and their farm. People will literally just yell at you to test the combination blindly so they can get murmurs for their farm.

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Think of it this way OP: the 10 murmurs for a failed stab is Not Meant to be your primary source of murmurs, its just a 'consolation prize' to help you out a little because the Lich just levelled up. From that perspective, if you don't stab and they don't level up; why should you expect to get anything?

10 murmurs for a failure is a good chunk of progress towards murmur farm. Further, the Lich will level up and spread their influence any time you complete all of the nodes they currently control, regardless of if you've tested a combination or not. Most people end up leveling up and spreading their Lich's influence before that point because of the incentive and pressure to test blindly, particularly when in a squad so that everyone can get that chunk of murmurs as well as move on with the mission and have a chance for their lich to also spawn during the mission.

If you do play in a squad and decide to not test, and fight off your lich, you cause other players to take longer to farm murmurs as well by dragging on the fight for absolutely no reward. Thinking of the 10 murmurs as a "consolation prize" is where I think you're mistaken. When murmurs are the tool through which we decipher the code to acquire the kuva weapons, they are not a "consolation prize". They're progress towards our reward. They are incentive.

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I see what youre saying, having a choice in warframe that allows for different reward outcomes creates conflict with public matches. People will likely go for the most efficent option, and react badly to anyone who doesnt want to go the same route. 

I am actually okay with your idea because A.) It reduces toxicity and B.) You still get the benefit of possibly guessing the mod right, which is like getting a bunch of murmurs to find out a mod. So theres still a risk-reward system within it (big reward), and it keeps the peace. It's a great idea unquestionably

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4 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I see what youre saying, having a choice in warframe that allows for different reward outcomes creates conflict with public matches. People will likely go for the most efficent option, and react badly to anyone who doesnt want to go the same route. 

I am for this idea because A.) It reduces toxicity and B.) You still get the benefit of possibly guessing the mod right, which is like getting a bunch of murmurs to find out a mod

So theres still a risk reward system within it, and it keeps the peace. I can only see this as a win win. Nice idea!

Exactly. Time wise, I think that just blindly testing a sequence will still be the better option, as you're not fighting the Lich 3 times. However, as long as your allies get 10 murmurs either way, with the possibility of converted thralls while doing so, I don't think they will be as angry about helping you fight instead of test.

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Peer pressure is irrelevant.

It's My Lich and If I don't want to level them up yet, then I simply won't stab. None of those pub randos are entitled to a free 10 murmur off my choice.

I don't feel any pressure at all from this, its a non-issue for me.

 

Further, I am courteous with other players' choices, when a Lich spawns that is not my own, I do not attack it unless they ask.

 

there is none of this 'dragging on the fight for no reward' situation, because there is No Fight. I don't fight other peoples' lich expecting to gain anything, and I expect them to act the same towards mine.

 

There's no problem, you just need people to be more considerate. and actually communicate.

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31 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

None of those pub randos are entitled to a free 10 murmur off my choice.

[...]

There's no problem, you just need people to be more considerate. and actually communicate.

uh-huh. I guess you instrantly tell people when your lich shows what you expect, or do you just carry on the 2 minute speedrun leaving them to wonder whose lich it is and why you're not stabbing it, which is the expected behaviour.

I have seen this - people have said "don't stab it, let it spawn thralls" before now, but its very rare. Maybe solo runs are mjore appropriate for you.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Peer pressure is irrelevant.

It's My Lich and If I don't want to level them up yet, then I simply won't stab. None of those pub randos are entitled to a free 10 murmur off my choice.

I don't feel any pressure at all from this, its a non-issue for me.

 

Further, I am courteous with other players' choices, when a Lich spawns that is not my own, I do not attack it unless they ask.

 

there is none of this 'dragging on the fight for no reward' situation, because there is No Fight. I don't fight other peoples' lich expecting to gain anything, and I expect them to act the same towards mine.

 

There's no problem, you just need people to be more considerate. and actually communicate.

Still though, their idea generates a win win situation where you still get risk reward and far less toxicity. It ultimately creates a more enjoyable experience for everyone

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6 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

 

I have seen this - people have said "don't stab it, let it spawn thralls" before now, but its very rare.

Yes, that's me. I'm that guy who really does state intention.

I usually say specifically:

"Don't hurt lich, let them stay and spawn thralls. Use Operator void dash to Push Grineer towards Lich for thrall conversions."

and my Operator has magus lockdown on, so when they see a bunch of paralyzed Grineer all tied up next to the Lich they usually get the idea.

Pretty cool tip that you can Move grineer towards the Lich manually so they convert faster huh? most people seem to appreciate learning that when I demonstrate it.

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В 28.04.2021 в 05:57, (XBOX)Rez090 сказал:

They're called murmurs, not echoes. Nobody has ever called them echoes.

A localization issue probably.
In Russian they're called "whispers"


On-topic:
I'm pretty sure when you fight them off, they lose a bit of aggression, not sure why you would want it tho, but hey, they tried to give us a reason!

I would love if Liches instead of converting thralls, just outright spawned them each time you down them, that certaintly would make the encounters more interactive.

Спойлер

Hmm, maybe i should create a separate topic for that on Monday.
Eh, probably will get buried immediatly.

 

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I can't find my old thread, but I still think Requiem mod tests should follow the rules of the old board game Mastermind. Check all mods at the same time, tell me only how many I got correct and how many I got correct and in the right place. That actually turns the "guessing game" into a proper game, as opposed to... Well, just guessing.

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