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Could Punch Through do with a rework?


Zahnny

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So recently I got the Argonak, a weapon that highlights the silouettes of enemies, and with it, Amalgam Argonak Metal Auger, which allows it to highlight enemies with Punch Through, so you can see them through walls (strangely, not through closed doors despite being able to shoot through them.)

I though that this might be the weapon that gives me a reason to use Punch Through, so I used all the mods I could find reaching a 6.7 Punch Through stat, and don't get me wrong. I'm still making lots of shots I would otherwise not be able to make with other weapons due to the weapons passive, but I can't help but feel that the Punch Through is lacking. That even a stat value of 6.7 is still not able to shoot through a lot of terrain when it becomes too thick.

That this is ideally what the Zenith should have been (a weapon with infinite punch through when the short range radar disc is out).

Yet all I can think of is how there is so much potential here that is going under utilised.

From what I can find on the wiki, the weapon with the highest innate Punch Through is the Snipetron Vandal at a value of 3.0 (taking the 6.7 above, that'd be around 9.7)

Sniper mods that give them either infinite punch through, or a high punch through value like 7.5

Snipers with a mod allowing them to gain the same kind of passive that the Argonak has. Imagine you're somewhere like the Orb Vallis, you got a team on the ground and far away is a sniper tagging all the enemies through the walls of a base and sniping them before they can even reach your team.

Idunno, I kinda wish Punch Through was as build viable as status and crit mods. Maybe even an overall rebalance of weapons to give them punch through or a higher amount.

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Don't know what you're on about. Punch through, even a little will allow you to hit multiple enemies at the same time with a single bullet. 

There's weapons with infinite body punch through such as the Ignis and then there's a single weapon with infinite punch through and that's the Fluctus. If you value punch through only through the means of shooting through all terrain then well I don't know what to tell you. Body punch through allows you to hit as many enemies in a row as you can. It allows you to deal a multiplication of the damage you're already dealing. So it's already really viable. Perhaps not on every weapon, but it's a good stat to have on a great deal of weapons.

Even more so with Mag. Well, perhaps even mandatory with Mag.

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If anything I think punch through mods need a bit of cost reduction, aside from Vigilante Offense, Seeking Fury and Shred which fairly equitable for what they provide.

I mean already spending a mod slot is bad enough, but also taking a whopping 15 drain on top of that?

As for wall/terrain punch-through I think they need to be cautious on that front, if only because it would promote sitting nigh-afk crouched in an air vent and still killing enemies with zero threat.

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2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

If anything I think punch through mods need a bit of cost reduction, aside from Vigilante Offense, Seeking Fury and Shred which fairly equitable for what they provide.

I mean already spending a mod slot is bad enough, but also taking a whopping 15 drain on top of that?

As for wall/terrain punch-through I think they need to be cautious on that front, if only because it would promote sitting nigh-afk crouched in an air vent and still killing enemies with zero threat.

Yea. Anything that promotes AFK gaming is something that DE will not implement. And rightly so.

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Punch Through is funny.  Totally essential if you like trying to make single target weapons semi-competitive in WF.  But the game content works hard against you regardless.

Anyway, I've advocated doubling PT values on most weapons and mods, and introducing small value exilus PT mods.  I don't expect this to close the gap between ST weapons and AoE, but it would be a fun boost.

And I'd also enjoy an Argonak style highlighting exilus mod.

Other people have talked about adding inherent PT to all ST weapons.  That's a little extreme for me but I can't say it's a terrible idea.

In an ongoing Epitaph thread in Weapon Feedback, @Tyreaustalked about adding a damage bonus to successive punched targets.  An idea that makes no physical sense but sounds like it could be fun as hell.

Maybe something like, "Headshots punch through automatically and the next target hit receives +X% damage."

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2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

In an ongoing Epitaph thread in Weapon Feedback, @Tyreaustalked about adding a damage bonus to successive punched targets.  An idea that makes no physical sense but sounds like it could be fun as hell.

Maybe something like, "Headshots punch through automatically and the next target hit receives +X% damage."

Huh, I actually thought of the opposite. That punch through reduces weapon damage depending on how much it has traveled prior to reaching the target, and from a 1% to 100% rating, however much punch through you had left would be how much the enemy takes. Maybe a bit more generous, but hopefully you get the idea, having more punch through would essentially be like less "damage falloff" through obstacles and enemies.

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4 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Huh, I actually thought of the opposite. That punch through reduces weapon damage depending on how much it has traveled prior to reaching the target, and from a 1% to 100% rating, however much punch through you had left would be how much the enemy takes. Maybe a bit more generous, but hopefully you get the idea, having more punch through would essentially be like less "damage falloff" through obstacles and enemies.

Punch through has no effect on damage. You hit two enemies? You just doubled your damage output.

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48 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Idunno, I kinda wish Punch Through was as build viable as status and crit mods. 

alright, i'll buy that for a dollar. that would make adjusting Punch-Through worthwhile.

16 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

An idea that makes no physical sense but sounds like it could be fun as hell.

not for Guns in general, but it could make sense for some strange sci-fi Gun with special Ammo.

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13 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Huh, I actually thought of the opposite. That punch through reduces weapon damage depending on how much it has traveled prior to reaching the target, and from a 1% to 100% rating, however much punch through you had left would be how much the enemy takes. Maybe a bit more generous, but hopefully you get the idea, having more punch through would essentially be like less "damage falloff" through obstacles and enemies.

That approach pulls well ahead on Laws of Physics but falls sadly behind on  Fun As Hell. 😉

But yeah, it's a decent idea if you want to add inherent PT to most ST weapons.  I'll take what improvements I can get, pretty much.

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Well, honestly I would just give most weapons a very small amount of Punch-Through. I'm talking like literally a tiny amount, just enough to go through an enemies dead body to hit the enemy behind them or through very thin fence-like structures. Just so some of the automatic weapons don't waste dozens of ammunition into an already dead enemy or do more damage against the scenery then the guy you're actually aiming at. It would just have to be specifically tailored to those two things alone, otherwise you'd be able to ignore stuff like Shield Lancers. 

As for reworking Punch-Through in general, I don't really see a reason to. It works just fine and is specifically limited to meters to not allow it to just kill enemies three rooms away while you sit there. However, I'm not against some QoL changes, like making PT gain a slight scaling damage bonus based on how many enemies it goes through. So say you have a 3.0 in PT, each enemy hit would add like 15% extra damage, capping at 45% extra damage on the last enemy hit. Going through objects like walls would of course not count.

If DE feels it's valuable enough as is, then it at least needs some cost reduction and some additional stats (like a small amount of extra Fire Rate or faster Reload Speed), kind of like Shred.

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What about a weapon with infinite punch through on the current magazine, but it activates from getting a regular headshot and it only highlights same enemy type as the one that got headshot. Once the magazine is empty it turns off the highlights and punch through until another headshot!

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

Well, honestly I would just give most weapons a very small amount of Punch-Through. I'm talking like literally a tiny amount, just enough to go through an enemies dead body to hit the enemy behind them or through very thin fence-like structures.
It would just have to be specifically tailored to those two things alone, otherwise you'd be able to ignore stuff like Shield Lancers. 

i'm not sure there's a value that actually works for that, as 0.1 PT already bypasses Shield Lancers.

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2 hours ago, Ker-Blammo said:

I think it's less of a problem about punchthrough, but more of a problem with how modding is as a whole. There are too many "key" mods to be able to even fit anything that gives any QOL.

Some weapons will benefit greatly from some extra range or ammo capacity, but sacrificing a mod slot is a tough choice. We got the Exilus mod slot for that, but I think we could do with another slot like this that allows QoL mods such as ammo, fire rate, punch through, range, etc.

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it's important to know that DE don't want people shooting through walls all the time, even in cases where you still have to aim. punch through as it is works ok mechanically, it's just that some walls and surfaces are inconsistent with how easily they can be penetrated: I've seen enemies shoot through solid walls with no punchthrough, while relatively light-looking fences can stop sniper rounds. 

also, Puncture damage should have innate punchthrough as it's proc. more puncture status chance = more chance for punchthrough, separately calculated from and stacking with the weapon's actual punchthrough stat. 

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I enjoy playing with semi auto weapons (Latron , grinlok, Corinth, aklex)

On such weapons punchthrough is almost always present on the build (primed seeking fury when ?)

It can potentially triple the effective damage that can be done if you line your shots and hit 3 enemies skillfully , 

Unfortunately the game is not about skillful usage and these mods don't really see that much use as triple potential damage is still lower than same damage in aoe.

I would love some better effects that could stack , like scattering / ricochet in conjunction with punchthrough.

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I feel Punch-Through is in a weird state where it ought to be stronger, but can't really be allowed to, because it punches through both enemies and terrain:

  • Punching through enemies is something that likely ought to be much more prevalent, because players ought to be rewarded for lining up multiple enemies at a time.
  • Punching through terrain runs the risk of dumbing down play, because it just lets players bypass enemy cover instead of trying to maneuver around it. In the worst of cases, it risks letting players hide behind cover of their own and shoot enemies through walls.

Effectively, against enemies it would be fine even if weapons could be given theoretically infinite punch-through, but against terrain, most weapons should probably not have punch-through at all. In the rare cases where the weapon is meant to specialize in punching through terrain, like the Argonak or Zenith as mentioned in the OP, the punch-through should always be infinite, at least against highlighted targets.

My 2-ish cents on how to change the situation:

  • Rework Puncture status so that instead of its current effect, it simply lets the shot punch through the target, potentially repeating against subsequent targets.
  • Give weapons with innate punch-through guaranteed Puncture procs.
  • Rework Piercing Roar and Vexing Retaliation to apply something other than a Puncture proc.
  • Alter the damage distribution of weapons with exploding projectiles, such as the Epitaph, to no longer have Puncture in their main projectile's damage (to avoid turning the shot into a dud by having it punch through a target instead of exploding). Alternatively, have the explosion trigger on impact with enemies even if the shot punches through them, potentially allowing for multiple explosions from the same projectile.
  • Either remove generic punch-through mods or rework them to have much more specific functionality, e.g. having Amalgam Argonak Metal Auger let the Argonak reveal enemies through terrain and grant infinite terrain punch-through.

TL;DR: Separate enemy punch-through and terrain punch-through by making enemy punch-through the Puncture status effect (and letting it be potentially infinite), while making terrain punch-through more niche and probably reserved only for certain weapons. Building for punch-through would either involve relying on Puncture damage and status (for enemies), or using specific mods with some kind of gameplay that lets shots bypass terrain under certain conditions.

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11 hours ago, Zahnny said:

So recently I got the Argonak, a weapon that highlights the silouettes of enemies, and with it, Amalgam Argonak Metal Auger, which allows it to highlight enemies with Punch Through, so you can see them through walls (strangely, not through closed doors despite being able to shoot through them.)

I though that this might be the weapon that gives me a reason to use Punch Through, so I used all the mods I could find reaching a 6.7 Punch Through stat, and don't get me wrong. I'm still making lots of shots I would otherwise not be able to make with other weapons due to the weapons passive, but I can't help but feel that the Punch Through is lacking. That even a stat value of 6.7 is still not able to shoot through a lot of terrain when it becomes too thick.

That this is ideally what the Zenith should have been (a weapon with infinite punch through when the short range radar disc is out).

Yet all I can think of is how there is so much potential here that is going under utilised.

From what I can find on the wiki, the weapon with the highest innate Punch Through is the Snipetron Vandal at a value of 3.0 (taking the 6.7 above, that'd be around 9.7)

Sniper mods that give them either infinite punch through, or a high punch through value like 7.5

Snipers with a mod allowing them to gain the same kind of passive that the Argonak has. Imagine you're somewhere like the Orb Vallis, you got a team on the ground and far away is a sniper tagging all the enemies through the walls of a base and sniping them before they can even reach your team.

Idunno, I kinda wish Punch Through was as build viable as status and crit mods. Maybe even an overall rebalance of weapons to give them punch through or a higher amount.

What you're asking for is to make Punch-through way too OP. There's a reason they don't make punch-through as OP as you want: It would make any sort of combat encounter waaay to easy. Punch Through can already be very powerful if combined with the Magnetise Void Proc. Why make it more so?

Also, there's a assault rifle with basically infinite punch-through available through the Daily Tribute system, as a potential reward for logging in for 100 cumulative days. Go Farm for it if you want a punch-through based build.

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5 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

Well, honestly I would just give most weapons a very small amount of Punch-Through. I'm talking like literally a tiny amount, just enough to go through an enemies dead body to hit the enemy behind them or through very thin fence-like structures.

DE did do that with the Kuva Quartakk and Kuva Karak, IIRC

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modding for punch through is like carrying dancing shoes everywhere, not very practical. Unless you're prone to spontaneous dance routine

tenor.gif 

3 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

also, Puncture damage should have innate punchthrough as it's proc. more puncture status chance = more chance for punchthrough, separately calculated from and stacking with the weapon's actual punchthrough stat. 

this is something i'd like to see 

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