Operators: The improvements the tenno needs

Althaline · June 2, 2022

22 hours ago, Merrcenary said:

i'm pretty sure nobody cared about this

I'm pretty sure you're entirely wrong, and being dismissive of a sizable (and quite vocal) group of players. You may not have cared about Operator melee, but others certainly did. Even a basic check through the forums would have revealed that. Removing its closest approximation entirely and declaring that it will never return or be expanded upon is a bizarre move on DE's part.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Iamabearlulz

(PSN)pedrochass2005 · June 2, 2022

4 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I dunno if "Smarter" is the right term for enemies

I'd rather say, "More Varied Behaviors": have them do more interesting things that old Doom 1993 AI where they just run up and shoot.

and yeah, its totally an excuse

There's already proof that it can be done, with the Archon boss fights.

You mean the boss where our powers,weapons,health and movement are limited? When you face them with your frame they die in seconds like every enemie.

4 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

chicken and egg problem - pablo doesn't want to make more interesting enemies because we'll kill them too fast. we kill them too fast because they aren't doing anything interesting.

so instead he does the lazy approach and makes bullet sponges, just changing their ehp numbers; which is just fail in both directions now. they live longer but simultaneously make it obvious how boring they are.

Or maybe the hundreds of enemies types including the new eximus with their unique attacks can't do interesting things because we kill/cc them too fast and if DE makes them live/figth for more than 5 seconds the community goes in uproar.

Unless these interesting things you are saying are in mission balancement i doubt it would be more than armchairdev thinking

(PSN)pedrochass2005 · June 2, 2022

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

What do the current enemies have to be actually smart about?

They have very few actual abilities that they could use "smartly", and the "community" often goes nuts if they are actually allowed to hit us. Just check the "debate" about the new Eximus units estimating how we are moving (which has generated a lot of screaming, crying and hair-pulling).

There are also different levels of "smartness":

One is at the unit level, how the unit acts, how it selects targets and what attacks and/or abilities it uses.

The next level is how nearby enemy units "interact", in order to be more effective.

The third and final level (in Warframe) would be "enemy squad composition", or some unseen commander deciding which units at his/her disposal are going to be spawned in to fight with us.

At the unit level it is partly (or "very partly") implemented in the game, some enemy "snipers" often keep their distance (like Grineer ballista, as long as they have a line of fire) and some "healers/buffers" stay within effect distance but does not attack (Ancient Healers mostly stay "a bit away" and does not initiate attacking). And many units seemingly use cover, some even throw grenades from behind cover. However, for them to act smarter they would have to get an increased toolset to apply, or in other words "real choices" to be smart about.

At the "group level" a lot could be done. Such simple stuff as coordinated rush attacks from different directions or attacking when Tenno reload or abilities time out, or get knocked down or otherwise status-proc'ced would go a LONG way to improve enemy effectiveness. However, such "smarter actions" would tend to interfere with mission progression, or even mission success, as long as that progressions relies on X enemies rushing in during Y seconds. While not an unsurmountable problem to solve, the real hinderance would be "the community", since enemies playing smartly and hanging back and/or only attacking "en masse" would "interfere" with "farming". While completely ridiculous from a "better and more interesting game"-viewpoint, part of "the community" has shown time and time again that they have egoism (often additionally spiced up with liberal dose of egotism) as their core guiding factor.

At "command level" a smarter enemy AI could really shine. Analyzing how the enemy (= the squad of Tenno) plays, which weapons and abilities they use and which units dies quickly or slowly and which manage to hurt the Tenno and then reacting by selecting which enemies get spawned in, or even changing their weaponry on the fly... well, the possibilities are huge. Such an "in-mission adaptable" enemy composition change would of course interfere with unit-based drops, so that would have to be changed a bit. And again the biggest hindrance would be "the community", I am not sure there is unit for the measure of salt that would be poured into the forums if players were actually "outsmarted" by the enemy, with their intricate glass cannon designed getting neutered by an adaptively playing enemy commander. Yikes! Wouldn't take long before we would see arguments along the line that "Warframe is supposed to be a looter-shooter, so this is totally wrong", and... well, we've all seen them before.

Making the enemies smarter, at ALL levels, has the potential to be a major improvement to the game. As an example, just imagine if the Steel Path instead of it's current "bullet sponge"-based increased difficulty consisted of only slightly tankier but much smarter enemies, with better (and changeable) equipment, that actually played together as a squad and where an unseen commander does his/her utmost to throw the best and most effective units he/she has against you, wave after wave, spawn after spawn. Steel Path would be way more fun that way.

Have to raise an additional "smartness"-point: at the minimum, give the enemies at least such a rudimentary facultative process that they can deduce that if their compatriots are dying left and right but they see no enemies, it might be because the enemy/enemies are invisible. And that you can make invisible enemies visible by throwing a simple can of paint at them, or at the spot where you think they are. Or just spray paint all around, in every direction. If that deduction is too much of a stretch for our enemies, how on earth are they able to build spaceships? Yikes!

99% of these strategies are useless the moment i can bullet jump to the sky and bombard them or just cc half of the map

Edited June 2, 2022 by (PSN)pedrochass2005

Graavarg · June 2, 2022

6 hours ago, (PSN)pedrochass2005 said:

99% of these strategies are useless the moment i can bullet jump to the sky and bombard them or just cc half of the map

You should think a bit outside the box, since that is also where "smarter enemies" currently resides. On the other hand, CC and AoE are currently the total opposite, as unoriginal as it gets and smack in the middle of "the box".

It is not all that hard coming up with a multitude of "smart" enemy weapons and abilities that can handle such stuff, like a target-seeking "Fly Smasher" anti-air stun missile/laser, or a "CC unlocker" grenade. And for the bombard spam an energy wave-based "Reload Jammer", blocking or slowing down reload speed for your currently equipped weapon by X-hundred percent for 30 seconds.

Now, I am not saying this should be implemented, just pointing out that it isn't all that hard coming up with new "smarter" enemy stuff either (it took longer to write than to make up).

Edited June 2, 2022 by Graavarg

(PSN)Vexx757 · June 3, 2022

Vexx-info: Operator vs Drifter movement

I said at one point that I didn`t like the drifters, one of the reasons is that the movement is too similar to warframe.

The solution to this is simple all that needs to happen is to change the animations to look different from warframe movement, this is one of the reasons why I like operators so much because their movement visually looks different from warframes.

Let`s compare the operator`s movement to the drifters:

Operator sprint by Aaronj-c

Op drifter sprint AND sprint with weapon 5s by Aaronj-c

The sprint of the drifter needs to visually change, her back needs to be striate like the operator is.

Operator sprint with weapon 5s by Aaronj-c

Op drifter sprint AND sprint with weapon 5s by Aaronj-c

When the drifter is walking and jogging, she has two hands on the gun, the closest thing I can think of is like Jill in Resident Evil revelations, to me it makes it look like she is trained in fire arms. Also, if the drifter ever gets a rifle the animation needs to be different also.

Operator jump by Aaronj-c

Op drifter jump by Aaronj-c

The jumping animation need to be different for the drifter, her back is striate, one leg up bent and one leg down a bit also bent, arms can stay the same (maybe).

Operator foward dodge by Aaronj-c

Op drifter forward dodge 1s by Aaronj-c

The drifter`s role can stay the same.

Operator back dodge 2s by Aaronj-c

Op drifter back dodge 2s by Aaronj-c

Drifter`s back dodge can stay the same.

Operator shoot by Aaronj-c

Op drifter shoot 5s by Aaronj-c

Shooting is fine.

Operator air shot 3s by Aaronj-c

Op drifter air shot 3s by Aaronj-c

The operator needs to have the same landing animation as the drifter/warframe.

Operator GIF 7. by Aaronj-c

Both operator and drifter should have the same side dodge animation like the side knockdown recovery from the amp.

I believe doing this will make the drifter feel different to use, he/she has the same movement as the warframes but not the same animation.

Vexx-info: Operator Cosmetics Expansion - Hairstyles

One thing I would like to see more of are more hairstyles for the operators, some cultural and some unique there could be some cultural hairstyles within warframe itself. Ever since I saw the Lotus` hairstyle in one of the short quests I wanted it on my operator so here’s hoping we will get it soon.

As to where we get them, we could get some with hair ornaments from the six main syndicated e.g. Arbiters could have a sword ornament in with it (female) while red veil could have dagger designs as a haircut (male).

Here are some examples of hairstyles I would like to see.

H1 by Aaronj-c

H10 by Aaronj-c

H8 by Aaronj-c

H12 by Aaronj-c

H3 by Aaronj-c

H7 by Aaronj-c

H6 by Aaronj-c

H9 by Aaronj-c

H5 by Aaronj-c

H2 by Aaronj-c

H16 by Aaronj-c

H4 by Aaronj-c

Or even...

Spoiler

H14 by Aaronj-c

H15 by Aaronj-c

H13 by Aaronj-c

Vexx-info: Operator Idle Animations

One thing that would be cool is to have more idle animations for operators. Currently drifters don`t have any because they don’t have any powers due to the lore, but they both need more idle animations.

I like the fact the IA have emotions in the face however I have to say this;

PLEASE COMPLETELY CHANGE THE IA FOR NARAMON, IT LOOKS HORIBLE AND IT HAS A WEIRED FACE WHEN IDLE.

Here are some examples of ones I think would be cool for them to have:

Warframe 20211114195413 by Aaronj-c

This is what the Naramon stance should be like (Excal).

Warframe 20211114200922 by Aaronj-c

Warframe 20211114195642 by Aaronj-c

Warframe 20211114200220 by Aaronj-c

Warframe 20211114195847 by Aaronj-c

Warframe 20211114200556 by Aaronj-c

Warframe 20211114201335 by Aaronj-c

Warframe 20211114200422 by Aaronj-c

There is a bug when the operator hacks a terminal they always tilt their head up and it`s like this for the duration of the mission. Please fix DE.

Operator GIF BUG by Aaronj-c

Izarria · June 9, 2022

Not long ago there was Q&A for China where Pablo answered some questions, and one of them was a question regarding Operators and melee weapons. The answer given by him was a no, as it would make them too similar to Warframes and there would be no point in having both:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNzIyUHUofg&t=417s

My issue with this answer is that it is overlooking all the differences between them, and it contradicts the changes made to Operator this patch cycle which gave them even more similarities to Warframes... Such as shields/gate and actual abilities, and amps have functionally been no different to using ranged weapons on Warfames. When it comes to melee, the way mobility is handled between Operator and Warframes alone would leave it feeling significantly different, unlike amps vs ranged weapons. Melee weapons could also have simply shared the same downtime as amps do, as it could have easily been an extension of amps; even giving up an alt-fire mode to swap between ranged and melee modes.

Regardless, the point would be the same point as to why anything else exists in the first place, for fun or enjoyment. Why do Necramechs exist? Following the logic, they're the same as Warframes... but then they are not. Their movement and associated restrictions still leaves them feeling drastically different. Why did Archwings exist? Why did Railjack have to exist? We even have actually less useful equipment such as K-Drives that are outclassed by Archwings for their given content, and the ability to teleport; even some Warframes/builds are significantly better. Yet, those were added despite being MR fodder and enjoyable to a small group.

I would like to know what other people think, and how would they like melee for Operators to function if they could have it done their way.

(PSN)isbergen · June 9, 2022

Operators had melee, and DE got rid of it. I liked Void Blast.

Birdframe_Prime · June 10, 2022

8 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Or even...

Could you stop over-sizing all of your text?

Anyone that needs to have over-sized text due to problems with vision (which is a setting you can turn on) now can't read yours because the proportional increase makes it even larger and uneven compared to the rest of the fonts around it.

Not sure why you feel the need to do this in the first place...

(PSN)Vexx757 · June 15, 2022

I`m really upset by this, this is something people have wanted for years and now DE is saying that they are not doing it.

Proof:

I`m going to address what Pablo has said:

“Basically, we don't want the operator to play the same as a warframe, because then what is the point of having both, right?”

I hate comments like this, this comment is the reason why people think the way they do, have you forgotten that this is a “game”? what do you mean what’s the point? The point is that it`s would be fun and that you have the option to choose that`s why, plus they are both visually different, ones a human and ones a super solider. You should not have to compare operators to warframe they are completely different plus it makes no sense in a 3^rd person shooter where a character can`t use melee, the operators currently can`t defend themselves on their own.

This video proves my point:

“We want you to feel one way when you're playing with your warframe and then when you switch to your operator, it should feel distinct in a way. “

What are you talking about? focus 2.0 literally did that, it focused mostly on the operator`s powers, making them good on their own and having void blast made them be able to defend themselves. (Which you removed for no good reason) now you changed it by melee bringing warframes into melee.

Since you want to go that route I’ll use it against you, what`s the point of making melee switch to warframe when you can switch back by pressing the transference button? (and this is not fun it`s just a function) this makes the operator more of a tool than before.

You force people to play operators but you can’t do a simple thing as give them better mobility and give them ways to defend themselves (like melee), you don`t need to make them like warframes you can make them like a Dax (Teshin) You even put it in a line that Cavalero says, you made it make sense or have you forgotten?

Quote:

"I watch you on the scope sometimes you know. Some of those moves, I thought only a Dax could pull them off".

This quote alone proves that the operator is capable of preforming sick combat manoeuvres.

You could make them using melee make sense by saying (which is something I came up with):

“Operator have been controlling the warframes for so long that they have learned the moves that they can perform and they use their imagination to create a weapon out of void energy”.

See? I made it make sense so there`s no excuse.

I’m sure people aren’t asking for them to be like warframes, they just want them to play good to the point people actually want to play as the operator for them to have better control but as it stands now, your changes hasn`t made people want to play them more for long periods of time on their own and the people that like the operators now like them less.

You say that you don`t want them to be like warframes but you gave operators over 1,000 health which is more than most warframes, make that make sense?

You could of just made their survivability based on what suit they wear.

“So that's why we don't really want to have like a one-to-one match of how the gear works for your operator and for your warframe.”

That`s an excuse you don`t need to make them the same the only similarities would be they both can use melee weapons, however, the way it functions can be completely different.

For example:

Spoiler

· The melee weapons that operators use is made up of void energy, which they can summon it from within themselves (visually like excel 4th ability).

· The weapons have their own stance however you can also use existing stance mods on them.

· In the equipment section you will have void melee, when selected there will be a slot (for the stance).

· The mod could represent the operator`s memory of the weapon he/she wants.

· If you choose a sword, you have the option to choose stances from the other stances that you can customise, for example, for a void sword, you can take stances from iron phoenix, crimson dervish, vengeful revenant and swooping falcon.

Spoiler

· The button presses can be like hack and slash games like DMC, GOW and Bayonetta. (Square x2, hold square, square x4 or square x2, pause square x4)

· They can`t perform slide attacks or slam attacks but can lift enemies in the air by holding melee button.

· Visually, heavy attacks are the operator thrusting their weapon into the ground.

· When killing enough enemies, they will activate void rage which increases their sprint speed and attack speed.

· The mechanics by using melee on operators can be based on skill rather than just mindless button mashing like warframes.

· Void melee can deal with sentiences and eximus enemies efficiently.

Look at what I have just done, the operators have melee but they function differently from warframes.

People have been asking for this for years and you won`t making it thing but yet (and I will always use this against you) you listen to 1% of players that wanted sentinel rivens an even smaller percentage that wanted uni vac to be removed from Titania`s 4^th by an augment and you listened to one stupid idiot that didn`t want uni medallions to be used in conclave.

You may say that it`s a waste of time but you gave use things we didn`t ask for like lunaro, k-drives (which has potential but you won`t do anything about it) Yarelli having k-drive, oh and guess what? Uni medallions which are useless and a waste of time and resources.

Having operator void melee however is something people have asked for years since their release hence why it was a question that popped up in the first bloody place!

This will not be a waste of time plus operators having operator melee will support the Naramon focus tree (which still needs improvements) and will be the best focus school to use operator melee with.

There is even a post about operator improvements that has 54 likes, over 9,000 views but none of the ideas has even been used (which is upsetting).

I have been pushing for operators to get void melee for years ever since they got focus 2.0.

So PLEASE DE reconsider and give operators void melee weapons, it won`t be a waste of time and doing things like this would be fun as heck.

Mortico · June 15, 2022

vor 6 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Vexx757:

I`m really upset by this, this is something people have wanted for years and now DE is saying that they are not doing it.

Proof:

I`m going to address what Pablo has said:

“Basically, we don't want the operator to play the same as a warframe, because then what is the point of having both, right?”

I hate comments like this, this comment is the reason why people think the way they do, have you forgotten that this is a “game”? what do you mean what’s the point? The point is that it`s would be fun and that you have the option to choose that`s why, plus they are both visually different, ones a human and ones a super solider. You should not have to compare operators to warframe they are completely different plus it makes no sense in a 3^rd person shooter where a character can`t use melee, the operators currently can`t defend themselves on their own.

This video proves my point:

“We want you to feel one way when you're playing with your warframe and then when you switch to your operator, it should feel distinct in a way. “

What are you talking about? focus 2.0 literally did that, it focused mostly on the operator`s powers, making them good on their own and having void blast made them be able to defend themselves. (Which you removed for no good reason) now you changed it by melee bringing warframes into melee.

Since you want to go that route I’ll use it against you, what`s the point of making melee switch to warframe when you can switch back by pressing the transference button? (and this is not fun it`s just a function) this makes the operator more of a tool than before.

You force people to play operators but you can’t do a simple thing as give them better mobility and give them ways to defend themselves (like melee), you don`t need to make them like warframes you can make them like a Dax (Teshin) You even put it in a line that Cavalero says, you made it make sense or have you forgotten?

Quote:

"I watch you on the scope sometimes you know. Some of those moves, I thought only a Dax could pull them off".

This quote alone proves that the operator is capable of preforming sick combat manoeuvres.

You could make them using melee make sense by saying (which is something I came up with):

“Operator have been controlling the warframes for so long that they have learned the moves that they can perform and they use their imagination to create a weapon out of void energy”.

See? I made it make sense so there`s no excuse.

I’m sure people aren’t asking for them to be like warframes, they just want them to play good to the point people actually want to play as the operator for them to have better control but as it stands now, your changes hasn`t made people want to play them more for long periods of time on their own and the people that like the operators now like them less.

You say that you don`t want them to be like warframes but you gave operators over 1,000 health which is more than most warframes, make that make sense?

You could of just made their survivability based on what suit they wear.

“So that's why we don't really want to have like a one-to-one match of how the gear works for your operator and for your warframe.”

That`s an excuse you don`t need to make them the same the only similarities would be they both can use melee weapons, however, the way it functions can be completely different.

For example:

Unsichtbaren Inhalt anzeigen

·       The melee weapons that operators use is made up of void energy, which they can summon it from within themselves (visually like excel 4th ability).

·       The weapons have their own stance however you can also use existing stance mods on them.

·       In the equipment section you will have void melee, when selected there will be a slot (for the stance).

·       The mod could represent the operator`s memory of the weapon he/she wants.

·       If you choose a sword, you have the option to choose stances from the other stances that you can customise, for example, for a void sword, you can take stances from iron phoenix, crimson dervish, vengeful revenant and swooping falcon.

Unsichtbaren Inhalt anzeigen

·       The button presses can be like hack and slash games like DMC, GOW and Bayonetta. (Square x2, hold square, square x4 or square x2, pause square x4)

·       They can`t perform slide attacks or slam attacks but can lift enemies in the air by holding melee button.

·       Visually, heavy attacks are the operator thrusting their weapon into the ground.

·       When killing enough enemies, they will activate void rage which increases their sprint speed and attack speed.

·       The mechanics by using melee on operators can be based on skill rather than just mindless button mashing like warframes.

·       Void melee can deal with sentiences and eximus enemies efficiently.

Look at what I have just done, the operators have melee but they function differently from warframes.

People have been asking for this for years and you won`t making it thing but yet (and I will always use this against you) you listen to 1% of players that wanted sentinel rivens an even smaller percentage that wanted uni vac to be removed from Titania`s 4^th by an augment and you listened to one stupid idiot that didn`t want uni medallions to be used in conclave.

You may say that it`s a waste of time but you gave use things we didn`t ask for like lunaro, k-drives (which has potential but you won`t do anything about it) Yarelli having k-drive, oh and guess what? Uni medallions which are useless and a waste of time and resources.

Having operator void melee however is something people have asked for years since their release hence why it was a question that popped up in the first bloody place!

This will not be a waste of time plus operators having operator melee will support the Naramon focus tree (which still needs improvements) and will be the best focus school to use operator melee with.

There is even a post about operator improvements that has 54 likes, over 9,000 views but none of the ideas has even been used (which is upsetting).

I have been pushing for operators to get void melee for years ever since they got focus 2.0.

So PLEASE DE reconsider and give operators void melee weapons, it won`t be a waste of time and doing things like this would be fun as heck.

+1

I'm one of those guys that liked operators before and now I don't...

I posted my opinion on the whole operator matter in many different posts but now I just don't care what DE does anymore...

But I can at least support great ideas that will be ignored anyway.

Thanks!

BDMblue · June 16, 2022

They are kinda right. Unless the melee is slow and clunky operator would basically be a warframe. More so with the melees you have shown. They all look like warframe melee weapons fast ninja type things nothing like what the drifter had.

Lutesque · June 16, 2022

On 2022-06-09 at 8:56 PM, Izarria said:

Not long ago there was Q&A for China where Pablo answered some questions, and one of them was a question regarding Operators and melee weapons. The answer given by him was a no, as it would make them too similar to Warframes and there would be no point in having both:

Embed 😭 !!!!

On 2022-06-09 at 8:56 PM, Izarria said:

Regardless, the point would be the same point as to why anything else exists in the first place, for fun or enjoyment. Why do Necramechs exist? Following the logic, they're the same as Warframes... but then they are not. Their movement and associated restrictions still leaves them feeling drastically different. Why did Archwings exist? Why did Railjack have to exist? We even have actually less useful equipment such as K-Drives that are outclassed by Archwings for their given content, and the ability to teleport; even some Warframes/builds are significantly better. Yet, those were added despite being MR fodder and enjoyable to a small group.

Don't get Hung Up on the Details.... the Reason they don't want to give Melee to Operators has got nothing to do with it being Too Similar....

The real reason is Simple.... They Just don't want to... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On 2022-06-09 at 8:56 PM, Izarria said:

I would like to know what other people think, and how would they like melee for Operators to function if they could have it done their way.

Makes no Difference to me....Operators are Lame....

BeardyKyle · June 16, 2022

7 hours ago, BDMblue said:

They are kinda right. Unless the melee is slow and clunky operator would basically be a warframe. More so with the melees you have shown. They all look like warframe melee weapons fast ninja type things nothing like what the drifter had.

I agree. I don't think Operators should have melee... although the drifter did have the knife, that was kind of nice but it was slow.

I would suggest giving them back void blast or void based physical attacks (not melee weapons) - for example a focus tree ability that adds a shoulder charge to the end of void sling.

quxier · June 17, 2022

On 2022-06-10 at 11:17 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Could you stop over-sizing all of your text?

Anyone that needs to have over-sized text due to problems with vision (which is a setting you can turn on) now can't read yours because the proportional increase makes it even larger and uneven compared to the rest of the fonts around it.

Not sure why you feel the need to do this in the first place...

+1

In old Opera browser we have slider in bottom-right corner. In Firefox I put such slider near "3 dash menu".

OP:

*waits 7 days so Birdframe_prime will forget about this topic*

*PROCEED WITH LARGE TEXT*

There should be "how to write 101 post" visible when people write topics/posts:

- hit enter (no wall of text)

- more or less proper grammar (mistakes are ok but no shortcuts like "ur")

- don't color text & text background (like... why?!)

Edited June 17, 2022 by quxier

Birdframe_Prime · June 17, 2022

9 minutes ago, quxier said:

OP:

*waits 7 days so Birdframe_prime will forget about this topic*

Vexx largely ignores me, or has me muted, since they absolutely refuse to take constructive (or even regular) criticism on their rework ideas, while I like to actually try giving real feedback on whether an idea could work or it couldn't.

(PSN)Vexx757 · June 21, 2022