Conclave should be operator based

[skyearthslayer]

Conclave is dead, but there are reasons for it that my proposal would fix. There are to many powerful weapons and warframes to be used and the movements are to fast for third person. Adding an operator mode (or a nechromech mode) would limit the speed and weapons used while also leaving room for customization on the amps. The first person mode would bring in old and new players, while also making conclave more fun and immersive. 

Now, my full idea is that you control a smaller version of a necromech in which its more humanoid in shape. On top of this, the armor could be variable or put into classes. The armor can be acquired from different factions (or bosses) and could be themed accordingly. The bosses could be killed using this operator mech. Another alternite idea is that the armor could be built using the parts from warframes acquired by these bosses and crafted on possibly Cetus.

 This Idea will make make a challenging grind based on your progression and shorten the equipment pool used in the conclave while not deminishing the personalization of loadouts. First person would make conclave better overall and draw competitive players to warframe. 

[MollAgdeduba]

1 hour ago, skyearthslayer said:

Conclave is dead

Yes it is, but the problem is not the mode itself, but that people want to play a co-op, relaxing farm game and not go in a unbalanced boring pvp. 

1 hour ago, skyearthslayer said:

Adding an operator mode (or a nechromech mode) would limit the speed and weapons used while also leaving room for customization on the amps

Spam 4 with voidrig.

Spam void dash with operator.

Before someone try to add something to the idea, i just tell that also railjack pvp will not work.

[Sevek7]

1 hour ago, MollAgdeduba said:

Yes it is, but the problem is not the mode itself, but that people want to play a co-op, relaxing farm game and not go in a unbalanced boring pvp. 

Yes, but we shouldn't pretend that this is an accident or coincidence. Warframe's community now has become only relaxed PvE grinders because DE stopped catering to all other kinds of players. There was a sizable PvP Warframe community but they left to other games because DE neglected them.

I think it's a missed opportunity. Warframe is big enough to have both crowds and everything in between. 

[Loxyen]

27 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

I think it's a missed opportunity. Warframe is big enough to have both crowds and everything in between. 

They already had that from scratch... but as you said they let em down :(

[Ancient_Secret]

11 hours ago, MollAgdeduba said:

Yes it is, but the problem is not the mode itself, but that people want to play a co-op, relaxing farm game and not go in a unbalanced boring pvp. 

Spam 4 with voidrig.

Spam void dash with operator.

Before someone try to add something to the idea, i just tell that also railjack pvp will not work.

Man, you really nailed it. 👍

I think the direction they're going in is trying to build a community, not a game.  That has pros and cons, no PvP is one of the cons. 

Spoiler

I think the closest this game will get to PvP is voting on fashion frames 😂

 

[Sevek7]

9 hours ago, Ancient_Secret said:

I think the direction they're going in is trying to build a community, not a game.  That has pros and cons, no PvP is one of the cons. 

I'm a bit confused by this. Are you saying that PvP somehow prevents the ability to build a community? 

[(PSN)zj0ker20]

14 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I'm a bit confused by this. Are you saying that PvP somehow prevents the ability to build a community? 

I actually wrote a paper about this topic for a college class.  In it, I compared the Warframe community to the Call of Duty community.  I argued that the cooperative nature of Warframe's gameplay, teaming you up with your fellow players to complete objectives and help each other, is part of the reason why the Warframe community members are generally nice to each other.   On the other hand, with Call of Duty, the main gameplay involves doing your best to kill other players, which naturally promotes hostility between players.  This is my theory, and I don't know how accurate it really is, but I've been screamed at far more times in Call of Duty then when playing Warframe.

Returning to the topic, I can see Necramechs being added to the Conclave, but I think that Operators will never be added to the general Conclave gamemodes, simply because adding them would restrict the already dwindling Conclave player base to only those who have made it past the War Within quest.  If it was added as an exclusive mode for those who had completed the quest, then maybe it could work.  Otherwise, I can't see it working.

[Stormdragon]

1 hour ago, (PSN)zj0ker20 said:

I actually wrote a paper about this topic for a college class. In it, I compared the Warframe community to the Call of Duty community.  I argued that the cooperative nature of Warframe's gameplay, teaming you up with your fellow players to complete objectives and help each other, is part of the reason why the Warframe community members are generally nice to each other.   On the other hand, with Call of Duty, the main gameplay involves doing your best to kill other players, which naturally promotes hostility between players.

If that's legit then whoever evaluated that paper should have made you fail hard, but i guess they didn't know about stuff such as the warframe community's kneejerk reactions going from the bullying to the player who tweeted about universal medallions, goes through harassing an indie dev to prevent him from making a tabletop game inspired inwarframe as a love letter to it, and goes as far as death threats to the devs over some changes to the game's core mechanics (iirc it was a slash nerf that devs decided to hold back because of said threats). Let's not even get started on the reactions of people when they see a Limbo join their mission or... god forbid! ask for PvP improvements... IN WARFRAME!!!

2 hours ago, (PSN)zj0ker20 said:

This is my theory, and I don't know how accurate it really is, but I've been screamed at far more times in Call of Duty then when playing Warframe.

As someone who has been surrounded by competitive communities of different kinds for over 22 years, i guess i can provide my experience that's the entire opposite to your theory, I'm also sure i've talked about this before so i'll just leave the quote (also linked for context if needed)

Spoiler

On 2020-04-16 at 4:42 PM, Stormdragon said:

I've been part of other pvp communities (Toxikk, GunZ, Tekken, Soul Calibur, and even sports leagues, like Basketball and Rugby) and with that experience i can tell that competitive people isn't innately toxic.

The biggest issue with toxicity is that it comes from a mixture of frustration (usually from players who want to win since their very first match but get to face an unexpected reality) and from lack of maturity and won't deny that for some people it's really easy to lose control over those things in the heat of a match/game/battle/whatever. BUT the important part of being a competitive community is being able to leave those things behind in the match and use what triggered them to get some feedback or advice from those above one or to provide the same to those below, that way the average skill rises and the game gets even better since, unlike popular belief, most good players see no fun on having one-sided battles against newbies, but find actually good when a player poses a threat or straight up offers a challenge and even provides a reason to improve further in any possible way.

So based on my experience with competitive communities, these have the potential to be a lot more healthy than that of the current warframe pve.

 

I guess you were quite lucky that -I'd assume- your teacher didn't know much (if anything) about this community and didn't do any research either in order to correct your paper, just like you decided to parrot what the warframe hivemind community wants to be seen of it instead of doing a proper research for your paper. 
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About the topic: 
PvP should be something that players can jump in regardless of their game progression and for free in order to keep the interest of players who get bored of PvE but enjoy the pvp side of the game. Making warframe's PvP operator based keeps any player who gets interested in it locked out of the mode until they finally complete The War Within (and all the grinds it involves, even though a special case could be done to take the grind down to The Second Dream, which can still be quite a grind for someone who just wants to play pvp and doesn't care about PvE); same for necramechs PvP (or adult operator PvP in case The Duviri Paradox brings them to the game) since these are locked behind an even bigger  grind than the operator itself. That's also without touching how different are all 3 operator, necramech and warframe gameplay.
 

[Sevek7]

10 hours ago, (PSN)zj0ker20 said:

I actually wrote a paper about this topic for a college class.  In it, I compared the Warframe community to the Call of Duty community.  I argued that the cooperative nature of Warframe's gameplay, teaming you up with your fellow players to complete objectives and help each other, is part of the reason why the Warframe community members are generally nice to each other.   On the other hand, with Call of Duty, the main gameplay involves doing your best to kill other players, which naturally promotes hostility between players.  This is my theory, and I don't know how accurate it really is, but I've been screamed at far more times in Call of Duty then when playing Warframe.

I think your hypothesis is correct, Warframe's community is generally nicer than the communities in PvP games. However, I think you ascribed it to the wrong underlying cause. A while back there were some papers published with large scale studies (instead of anecdotal experiences of a single person) and they found the following:

Any interaction between players where one player can hinder or slow down the progress of another player leads to toxicity among immature gamers. The studies focused on both competitive PvP games and cooperative PvE games, and found that occurrences of toxicity were (within margins of error) happening with the same frequency. (By the way: I'm surprised you didn't find these papers when doing your research - I'm guessing this is for an intro-level college course and not a serious study?)

So then why does Warframe have lower toxicity? Here I also have only anecdotal experience: My hypothesis is that Warframe's PvE is so incredibly easy that there is basically no way for one player through action or inaction to cause a mission to fail. Even if three players go AFK, the fourth player is still basically guaranteed success. As @Stormdragon mentioned, there are a few instances (like bringing max range Limbo to Hydron) where a player can slow down the progress of others. If you try that, I suspect you'll find out that Warframe's community is not very nice after all. 

I think it also has to do with the human want to believe that other people are generally good. Since Warframe's PvE doesn't require any coordination or communication, 99% of missions get done with nobody saying a word to each other at all. So we tend to assume these are nice people because it's what we want to believe, but we really have no idea what they might say if given a need to communicate.

After all, it's not possible to have a toxic interaction if there's no interaction at all.

[Loxyen]

5 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

leads to toxicity among immature gamers

good point... beside cs go, cod is pretty much one of the biggest shooter titles out there and thus it also attracts lots of immature audience below pg16/M or whatever players... cuz its cool to play a big trending adult game and what not. therefore social interaction and mutual respect are taken light heartedly/are forgotten even faster if the online ego kicks for some players

on the other hand I can say from observing and experience that pve gamer rage can be hell on earth aswell.. up to a point where personal feuds and even clan/guild/alliance vendettas led to even more grief and destruction originated from the stupidest bs... and yes looots of that in Warframe aswell

 

tbh stuff like Quake nullifies that pvp bad, all toxic theory pretty hard

[Xarteros]

I've been screeching it like a harpy for nearly a decade now:

There are ways to make PvP and Co-op overlap

• Separate players or teams into their own room/area for the most part, so players can't interfere with each other. Or, if feasible, make members of the enemy team appear as semi-transparent holograms in the colour of their team
• Obstacle course races, including procedural generated endurance modes (like dojo courses, lasers and hazards are instant death or deal % of health, last player alive wins, if you are more than X meters behind your opponent you start taking damage too)
• K-Drive races. Yuck, but hey.
• Competitive survival, where the enemies scale up way faster in difficulty and the last team alive wins. Add variants for Railjack, on-foot, archwing, operator only etc.
• Competitive Spy, where you have to race the enemy team to hack the vaults on a random tileset, but you lose points if you get spotted, trigger alarms or fail a vault
• Time trials of some of the Mastery tests, or versions where the difficulty ramps up massively over time.
• Demolyst tug-of-war, where there's a Demolyst in a long corridor tile, and it runs away from whichever team is dealing the most damage at the time. You can't move, and once the demolyst gets close enough to a team it explodes and kills them
• Dark Sector, where you have to race to defeat waves of specters so your solar rail can win the battle
• Farm Wars, where two teams play a survival or something and you can see their average loot per minute. If a team dies, or falls X% behind in loot rate, they lose.

just spitball ideas, but there are plenty of good ways that players can compete against others while still playing content more or less as it is now. I'm a massive PvE person in terms of gameplay, but I'd pretty much always opt for competing when I'm playing normal stuff, because it'd give me a reason to play actively instead of lazily.

  

[Tachmag]

Why do people keep insisting on new gamemodes for PvP? Like, Warframe is a game about Warframes, are people surprised that PvP is Warframe vs Warframe?