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Is Sevagoths Shadows Claws affecting Arbitration Drones another 'not working as intended' feature?


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(sorry if this is already addressed, but last time i used him it worked)

That's considering it's an exalted form with its own exalted weapon. 

Is it a feature or an oversight? And if it's the first, can we discuss to let other exalted weapons work as well? 

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Sevagoth's claws are not an exalted weapon...

Similar to Garuda's claws they are just the default melee equipped to the frame "shadow"

I'm not sure if it is intended that they can attack arbitration drones but it does make sense considering they aren't actually an exalted weapon.

Exalted Weapons are weapons tied directly to an ability. It is more accurate to describe shadow as an exalted warframe for Sevagoth, and they have their own non exalted weapons.

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I think it makes complete logical sense from a gameplay perspective that the claws can damage arbi drones while the other exalted weapons can’t. Shadow only has the claws. So it would be unfair to the player if every time a arbi drone showed up they’d have to change back to Sevagoth because shadow can’t do anything. It’s not like the other frames with exalted weapons where they can instantly switch to their gun and shoot the drone.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Leqesai:

Sevagoth's claws are not an exalted weapon...

Similar to Garuda's claws they are just the default melee equipped to the frame "shadow"

I'm not sure if it is intended that they can attack arbitration drones but it does make sense considering they aren't actually an exalted weapon.

Exalted Weapons are weapons tied directly to an ability. It is more accurate to describe shadow as an exalted warframe for Sevagoth, and they have their own non exalted weapons.

Ghost is an ability though. Which is affected by nullifiers and cancelled or prevented by mechanics cancelling or preventing abilities. So shouldn't abilities not be able to interact with the drones at all outside of coded 0dmg environmental interaction? (Lavos second ability for example) I.E. his claws should be able to interact, but not damage them?

I find this all very weird that until now no ability was allowed to be used on drones.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Ghost is an ability though. Which is affected by nullifiers and cancelled or prevented by mechanics cancelling or preventing abilities. So shouldn't abilities not be able to interact with the drones at all outside of coded 0dmg environmental interaction? (Lavos second ability for example) I.E. his claws should be able to interact, but not damage them?

I find this all very weird that until now no ability was allowed to be used on drones.

The claws are not an ability...

The shadow is an exalted form but everything it does is not an ability. IE using the claws.

Edited by Leqesai
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9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Sevagoth's claws are not an exalted weapon...

Similar to Garuda's claws they are just the default melee equipped to the frame "shadow"

I'm not sure if it is intended that they can attack arbitration drones but it does make sense considering they aren't actually an exalted weapon.

Exalted Weapons are weapons tied directly to an ability. It is more accurate to describe shadow as an exalted warframe for Sevagoth, and they have their own non exalted weapons.

Except Shadow Claws can't equip Acolyte mods, while Garuda's Talons can. Given that only exalted weapons cannot equip Acolyte mods, this gives strong evidence that Shadow Claws are an exalted weapon.

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vor 18 Minuten schrieb Leqesai:

The claws are not an ability...

The shadow is an exalted form but everything it does is not an ability. IE using the claws.

I looked into garuda and her claws are not exalted, but auto equipped normal weapons (according to the wiki), however, apparently they have some traits of exalted weapons, like damaging enemies in limbos rift. (I can't check if you can use combo mods on her talons anymore..)

In-game you get barely any description around Sev despite the shadow being named exalted shadow.. you also can't equip bloodrush, weeping wounds etc.on the claws which is a malus exclusively to exalted weapons.. (except the gladiator passive buff) (even deconstructor can equip bloodrush xD) 

You also don't get any stances or capacity from stances, which is again an exalted weapon thing..

Nothing of any of that makes sense. 

Which brings me back to the title.. what are they intended to be? They have all malus exalted weapons get, but can damage drones, which no other actual exalted weapon can.. oversight? Feature? Intended? Or not? 

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Except Shadow Claws can't equip Acolyte mods, while Garuda's Talons can. Given that only exalted weapons cannot equip Acolyte mods, this gives strong evidence that Shadow Claws are an exalted weapon.

This is a good point, but their being able to bypass arbitration drone shields is pretty strong evidence that they are not.
The shadow is a unique thing right now so it is not really fair to call either truly exalted, but even as a pseudo-exalted weapon it makes sense that it can damage arbitration drones while other exalted weapons cannot.

 

3 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

You also don't get any stances or capacity from stances, which is again an exalted weapon thing..

This is also a good point. 

I think it is most accurate to consider the claws pseudo-exalted and just accept that they fit into their own category with regard to what does and doesn't receive damage from them. I don't think it is a bug that they can hurt arbitration drones.

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb Leqesai:

This is also a good point. 

I think it is most accurate to consider the claws pseudo-exalted and just accept that they fit into their own category with regard to what does and doesn't receive damage from them. I don't think it is a bug that they can hurt arbitration drones.

I'm just confused at this point.. we'll see.. maybe they mention it at one point.

I'd love a reopening of the discussion though. While i get abilities not affecting them is basically a must.. what harm would wukongs stick do? Considering it's i think the worst of all exalted weapons right now.. 

Right now I just bulletjump, heavy attack the ground to disable their shield gate and one shot them.. or 2 shot them in general.. is this less of an issue than wukongs stick or excals blade? Idk..

Maybe they could make exalted weapons work but the drones get a bit of DR for them instead of outright ignoring them.

Ugh! Idk.. 

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2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:
9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Sevagoth's claws are not an exalted weapon...

Similar to Garuda's claws they are just the default melee equipped to the frame "shadow"

I'm not sure if it is intended that they can attack arbitration drones but it does make sense considering they aren't actually an exalted weapon.

Exalted Weapons are weapons tied directly to an ability. It is more accurate to describe shadow as an exalted warframe for Sevagoth, and they have their own non exalted weapons.

Except Shadow Claws can't equip Acolyte mods, while Garuda's Talons can. Given that only exalted weapons cannot equip Acolyte mods, this gives strong evidence that Shadow Claws are an exalted weapon.

And the Shadow Claws replace equipped weapons.  And power strength affects their damage.   And--probably the most convincing to me--if you have multiple Sevagoths, you still only have one Shadow Claws.  

I'd be curious if kills with them count as ability or not, and how affinity is treated.   Although even if Shadow Claws are more like weapons in those cases, I'd be less inclined to say  "These are definitely not Exalted" than I would be to  say "WTF, Exalted Weapon definitions are messy."

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Well the topic is certainly not as cut and dry as I originally thought. I think Tiltskillet is right on. "Exalted weapon definitions are messy" is the most accurate explanation of the nonsense we're discussing.

DE don't follow their own rules all the time, it would seem. The claws fit the exalted category in a number of ways, but are able to deal damage to arbitration drones which makes total sense (otherwise shadow form would be useless in arbitration mode) but goes against what we have come to define as characteristic of exalted weapon gameplay.

 

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Posted (edited)
vor 3 Stunden schrieb Tiltskillet:

And the Shadow Claws replace equipped weapons.  And power strength affects their damage.   And--probably the most convincing to me--if you have multiple Sevagoths, you still only have one Shadow Claws.  

I'd be curious if kills with them count as ability or not, and how affinity is treated.   Although even if Shadow Claws are more like weapons in those cases, I'd be less inclined to say  "These are definitely not Exalted" than I would be to  say "WTF, Exalted Weapon definitions are messy."

Seriously it feels like Shadow is treated code wise like an entire different entity.. i.e. operators or necramechs..

I mentioned it before in a thread that i think that's where he originated from.. now is it a technical thing they couldn't apply all existing malus of exalted weapons, or was it just forgotten? I'm not sure.. 

Now.. I'm kinda interested if killing enemies with shadow in Deimos at the pillars counts as operator kill (like mechs do or did idk if they fixed that) [no, ghost kills don't spawn resources.. :(] 

Also: 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Tiltskillet:

 "WTF, Exalted Weapon definitions are messy."

So true! I checked Garuda's page on the wiki and nothing makes sense about her talons XD 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by (XBOX)TyeGoo
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20 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

DE don't follow their own rules all the time, it would seem.

Totally.  Or, to put it another way, it's hard to know what's intended and what's not.  Which goes back to the OP's question.

 

23 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

. . .  but are able to deal damage to arbitration drones which makes total sense (otherwise shadow form would be useless in arbitration mode) . . .

I'm curious what a Titania player's response would be to this.  😉

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12 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

So it would be unfair to the player if every time a arbi drone showed up they’d have to change back to Sevagoth because shadow can’t do anything. It’s not like the other frames with exalted weapons where they can instantly switch to their gun and shoot the drone.

Titania would like to have a word about Razorwing, transformations, and instantly switching to guns.

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5 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Both of those weapons are exalted weapons.

...and?

I don't really play Titania, but her situation seems extremely close to Sevagoth's.  Except he can affect arbi drones with his exalted weapon without changing forms.

What pertinent difference am I missing?

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6 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Both of those weapons are exalted weapons.

Doesn't matter, she's in the same boat as Sevagoth's shadow. She doesn't have the luxury of being able to "instantly switch to their gun and shoot the drone" like other frames with exalted weapons. Unlike the shadow, she has to revert to her regular form to do anything to them, which you said would be unfair to the player if it were to happen to Sevagoth. So by extension, either both of them should be able to damage arbitration drones to keep it fair relative to other frames, or neither of them should to keep it consistent to what we've always had. I'd much rather the former.

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40 minutes ago, Alpheus said:

Doesn't matter, she's in the same boat as Sevagoth's shadow. She doesn't have the luxury of being able to "instantly switch to their gun and shoot the drone" like other frames with exalted weapons. Unlike the shadow, she has to revert to her regular form to do anything to them, which you said would be unfair to the player if it were to happen to Sevagoth. So by extension, either both of them should be able to damage arbitration drones to keep it fair relative to other frames, or neither of them should to keep it consistent to what we've always had. I'd much rather the former.

I don't think Titania is in the same boat as Sevagoth's shadow. 

Sevagoth's shadow does not use an ability to activate the claws. the Claws are active by default. Additionally, Sevagoth himself initiating Shadow is unique. No other frame is using an exalted form the same way Sevagoth does. Titania's Razorwing is essentially making two things happen. The change of form occurs but Titania is still equipping her exalted weapons much the same way as any other frame. The only difference is she also has a change of form alongside the equipping of her weapons. 

Sevagoth's Shadow is changing into an entirely different frame. There are no active abilities required to use the claws. 

 

Now... I don't think it is very cool that Titania is not able to damage arbitration drones with her weapons but I do see why she can't. Just like I can see why Shadow can damage them with their claws. The claws are like half-exalted or pseudo-exalted like I said earlier in the thread. They fit some criteria but not others.

Additionally we're just back to the "DE does what they want. To heck with consistency" idea.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Alpheus said:

Doesn't matter, she's in the same boat as Sevagoth's shadow. She doesn't have the luxury of being able to "instantly switch to their gun and shoot the drone" like other frames with exalted weapons. Unlike the shadow, she has to revert to her regular form to do anything to them, which you said would be unfair to the player if it were to happen to Sevagoth. So by extension, either both of them should be able to damage arbitration drones to keep it fair relative to other frames, or neither of them should to keep it consistent to what we've always had. I'd much rather the former.

She’s not in the same boat at all. Shadow is a completely separate frame. Razorwing just toggles between normal Titania and Archwing Titania with exalted weapons.

Shadow is it’s own separate frame with its own powers. It’s claws are it’s only non ability form of damage. Removing the ability for them to hurt arbi drones would be like making the whole of melee weapons ineffective against them.

 

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

...and?

I don't really play Titania, but her situation seems extremely close to Sevagoth's.  Except he can affect arbi drones with his exalted weapon without changing forms.

What pertinent difference am I missing?

Shadow is it’s own separate frame apart from Sevagoth. Titania still retains the same mods and such when going into razorwing. The only difference being she has changed movement and exalted weapons.

Edited by (XBOX)GearsMatrix301
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22 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

She’s not in the same boat at all. Shadow is a completely separate frame. Razorwing just toggles between normal Titania and Archwing Titania with exalted weapons.

Shadow is it’s own separate frame with its own powers. It’s claws are it’s only non ability form of damage. Removing the ability for them to hurt arbi drones would be like making the whole of melee weapons ineffective against them.

I'd be inclined to agree with you if not for the fact that in Razorwing mode, Dex Pixia and Diwata are also her only non ability forms of damage. When both of them spawn into the world, they each have specific weapons equipped that cannot be changed, except one weapon can damage drones and the other two can't. Just because Titania's abilities don't change in Razorwing doesn't negate the fact that they are identical situations.

I see what you're saying, but I'm harping on your comment of "it would be unfair to the player if every time a arbi drone showed up they’d have to change back to Sevagoth because shadow can’t do anything" because this is exactly what Titania players have had to do since arbitrations were released. The old arguments comparing her between any other frame with exalted weapons already pointed out the fact that unlike the other frames, she has no other way to deal damage to the drones, but there's been zero change in that regard. Seeing a +300% Titania bonus is just salt in that wound.

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58 minutes ago, Alpheus said:

I'd be inclined to agree with you if not for the fact that in Razorwing mode, Dex Pixia and Diwata are also her only non ability forms of damage. When both of them spawn into the world, they each have specific weapons equipped that cannot be changed, except one weapon can damage drones and the other two can't. Just because Titania's abilities don't change in Razorwing doesn't negate the fact that they are identical situations.

I see what you're saying, but I'm harping on your comment of "it would be unfair to the player if every time a arbi drone showed up they’d have to change back to Sevagoth because shadow can’t do anything" because this is exactly what Titania players have had to do since arbitrations were released. The old arguments comparing her between any other frame with exalted weapons already pointed out the fact that unlike the other frames, she has no other way to deal damage to the drones, but there's been zero change in that regard. Seeing a +300% Titania bonus is just salt in that wound.

Except the weapons themselves are the exalted weapons.

Shadow is basically an exalted Warframe and Shadow Claws is its unique melee weapon. The reason is has the same stance thing as exalted melees is because it’s a completely unique melee like the exalted weapons, and not like Garudas Talons which are just a really buggy set of claw melee.

Razor wing is not a separate frame from Titania. It’s still Titania, but in razorwing mode. And the fact that she’s limited to her exalted weapons is no different than Mesa being locked into just using peacemaker.

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12 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Razor wing is not a separate frame from Titania. It’s still Titania, but in razorwing mode. And the fact that she’s limited to her exalted weapons is no different than Mesa being locked into just using peacemaker.

Except Mesa isn't locked into just using Peacemaker to the same extent that Titania is locked to her archweapons. Mesa can seamlessly toggle Peacemakers in the middle of a fight to access her other weapons and it has no effect on her overall performance. Titania has to go through the transformation animation, losing the survivability granted in Razorwing mode in the process, and then has a small window after the transformation where she can't even attack or swap weapons. And then to transform back you've got to go through the animation again (then cast the other abilities 4 times if you're using Blitz). You don't generally hop in and out of Razorwing the same way you do with Mesa and her pistols. Once you're a fairy you mostly stay a fairy unless you need to carry something too far for the operator.

We can compare the playstyles of frames all month long but the real solution to the inconsistencies now and in the future is to just make the drones vulnerable to all weapons regardless of where they came from. They're not particularly difficult as it is with the existing options considering how much AoE we have at our disposal, so we aren't even being restricted from the most effective methods, only potentially fun ones. It isn't as though it's going to create a massive power gap between frames with and frames without exalted weapons. In fact when I brought my Mirage into an asteroid interception arbitration with an Akarius, she was still blowing up entire pods with 2 shots in the 10th round from across the map.

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13 hours ago, Alpheus said:

Except Mesa isn't locked into just using Peacemaker to the same extent that Titania is locked to her archweapons. Mesa can seamlessly toggle Peacemakers in the middle of a fight to access her other weapons and it has no effect on her overall performance. Titania has to go through the transformation animation, losing the survivability granted in Razorwing mode in the process, and then has a small window after the transformation where she can't even attack or swap weapons. And then to transform back you've got to go through the animation again (then cast the other abilities 4 times if you're using Blitz). You don't generally hop in and out of Razorwing the same way you do with Mesa and her pistols. Once you're a fairy you mostly stay a fairy unless you need to carry something too far for the operator.

We can compare the playstyles of frames all month long but the real solution to the inconsistencies now and in the future is to just make the drones vulnerable to all weapons regardless of where they came from. They're not particularly difficult as it is with the existing options considering how much AoE we have at our disposal, so we aren't even being restricted from the most effective methods, only potentially fun ones. It isn't as though it's going to create a massive power gap between frames with and frames without exalted weapons. In fact when I brought my Mirage into an asteroid interception arbitration with an Akarius, she was still blowing up entire pods with 2 shots in the 10th round from across the map.

Titanias transition from normal to razorwing isn’t that long. You’re over exaggerating.

We both know that DE isn’t going to make exalted weapons damage arbi drones. And in all likeliness this thread will get that feature removed from Claws and turn Sevagoth from a really good arbitration choice to one of the worst.

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Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-02 at 2:48 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I think it makes complete logical sense from a gameplay perspective that the claws can damage arbi drones while the other exalted weapons can’t. Shadow only has the claws. So it would be unfair to the player if every time a arbi drone showed up they’d have to change back to Sevagoth because shadow can’t do anything. It’s not like the other frames with exalted weapons where they can instantly switch to their gun and shoot the drone.

 

Edited by Tecliano
Previously raised.
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