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Riven ciphers: fixing the wrong problem.


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In the recent DevStream it was announced that Riven Ciphers would be coming to the Steel Path shop, and these will let you unveil a riven without doing the challenge.

Who asked for this? Seriously? You saw all the feedback on here about rivens and thought that's what we wanted?

Yeah, unlocking rivens can be a pain, but it's always something we can do. There's some build or ability or something to help kill 6 dargryns with a bow while sliding or whatever. It's a problem we solve with gameplay.

Meanwhile rolling rivens sucks. It's a casino/gambling activity (all pray to RNGsus) that you grind for. We need something for us MR30, 100+ rivens players to want to play the game for. Let us lock a stat, or guarantee the next roll has a particular stat, or excludes a stat. Sure, lock that riven from ever being traded if that's what you're worried about.

With Riven Ciphers you've made it possible to skip the bit of rivens that can be fun, but have done nothing to skip the bit that's a tedious Kuva grind or the awful dice roll part.

How many of these do you think Teshin is ever going to sell? How many players are grinding Steel Path and would pick this over Umbra Forma or just more Kuva?

 

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6 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

With Riven Ciphers you've made it possible to skip the bit of rivens that can be fun

Highlighted the word here. "Possible". You don't have to use the Cypher if you don't want to. No one is forcing you.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

How many of these do you think Teshin is ever going to sell? How many players are grinding Steel Path and would pick this over Umbra Forma or just more Kuva?

Assuming it doesn't change from what was said on devstream, it'll be once per week.

Edited by NekroArts
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vor 11 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)KayAitch:

How many of these do you think Teshin is ever going to sell?

I would buy it. Because i hate the stupid "def no hit on target".

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24 minutes ago, Omega-ZX said:

I would buy it. Because i hate the stupid "def no hit on target".

Nyx can trivialize these missions btw. Using her 4 with the augment you can just stand on the objective and pass the mission reqs without much issue.

I do agree with you that it can be an annoying challenge though.

TBH the worst is the "kill X dargyn pilots before they hit the ground while sliding" that I recently rolled. There are a few ways to cheese this as well but trying to do it legit? What a PITA.

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44 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

We need something for us MR30, 100+ rivens players to want to play the game for.

Then that just creates another problem. You're an MR30 who owns everything, has made all your rivens perfect, and can AFK every mission. Now what do you do?

It would just create a faster path to saying "Whelp, ran the new quest and got the new gear ranked up. See ya next update."

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

With Riven Ciphers you've made it possible to skip the bit of rivens that can be fun, but have done nothing to skip the bit that's a tedious Kuva grind or the awful dice roll part.

Can be fun is the operative portion of that sentence. There are several challenges that just aren't worth the effort or challenge. Since riven transmuters are still only available from eidolons, an awful challenge is just a dead riven to a lot of people, sold for scraps, given away, or burnt for endo.

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1 hour ago, NekroArts said:
1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

How many of these do you think Teshin is ever going to sell? How many players are grinding Steel Path and would pick this over Umbra Forma or just more Kuva?

Assuming it doesn't change from what was said on devstream, it'll be once per week

Not my point.

Riven Ciphers and Kuva are in the same store - as someone who has a lot of rivens I spend a hell of a lot more time getting Kuva than unlocking rivens. Given the choice of a free unveil or Kuva I'm going to pick Kuva every time.

The only people who might buy this are those players relatively new to rivens, who struggle with unveiling but haven't spent more than a few hundred thousand Kuva yet, and it's a bit of a con on them.

However, how many players like that are on the Steel Path?

1 hour ago, Omega-ZX said:

I would buy it. Because i hate the stupid "def no hit on target".

You would be conned, those ones are easy. I take Khora to an Infested defence (as I get Mutagen Samples at the same time), but there are quite a few frames that can cheese this.

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Nyx can trivialize these missions btw

Yup, like that too.

Save your Steel Essence for Umbra Forma and Kuva.

1 hour ago, Hobie-wan said:

You're an MR30 who owns everything, has made all your rivens perfect

I mean, all my rivens? Seriously, I have over 100, over 30 that I've rolled more than 50 times, maybe 5-10 that are 'god' rolls (most have well over 100 rolls but one has 2).

None of the things I mentioned would make perfect rivens, that isn't the problem - in 100 rolls of a riven 90 will be utter garbage, 5 will have something good but something bad, and 5 will be viable good ones (a god level perfect riven is about 1/250).

Being able to freeze a stat, or block a stat or ensure a particular stat comes in the next roll wouldn't make the next roll perfect, or significantly reduce how rare those perfect rolls are, it would just mean fewer +Impact +Zoom -Dmg to Grineer rolls.

1 hour ago, Hobie-wan said:

Now what do you do?

It would just create a faster path to saying "Whelp, ran the new quest and got the new gear ranked up. See ya next update."

You say that like it's a bad thing. If we've exhausted all the new content using grindwall RNG to keep us around just results in player burnout.

Honestly, for me personally I really enjoy resurrecting weapons - get a random riven for a >1 dispo weapon nobody uses and making it SP viable (or at least good). I even tried to make the Stug work (spoiler, it doesn't). 

I reroll a lot of rivens a lot of times, but the fun bit isn't grinding for Kuva or pulling the level on the riven slot machine, it's taking that new build out and trying it in high level missions. I want to do more of that.

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57 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

None of the things I mentioned would make perfect rivens, that isn't the problem - in 100 rolls of a riven 90 will be utter garbage, 5 will have something good but something bad, and 5 will be viable good ones (a god level perfect riven is about 1/250).

1/250 is an understatement. There is currently over 40 thousand possible riven combinations. Rivens are lootboxes in disguise. I want Riven Ciphers to reveal the riven for a weapon you want. You now eliminate an RNG layer while keeping supply still limited with the arbitrary weekly limit.

 

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4 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

unveil a riven without doing the challenge.

Hmmmm.....

I don't know how I feel about this...

 

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

You say that like it's a bad thing. If we've exhausted all the new content using grindwall RNG to keep us around just results in player burnout.

Taking a break and playing other things is a good thing.

Being one of the people that whine there's "nothing to do" 10 minutes after new content drops isn't. It's a looter shooter, so collecting and upgrading is a lot of the point and content can only be made so quickly. But my comment was directed at that sort of person.

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4 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Highlighted the word here. "Possible". You don't have to use the Cypher if you don't want to. No one is forcing you.

The issue is not that DE are adding content that might not appeal to all players

The issue is that they're wasting time and effort on something that has absolutely glaring problems that everyone hates, and they've added a tiny little QoL thing that some people might use out of laziness.

It's like a patient coming into the Emergency Room with multiple gunshot wounds and a severed arm, and DE are putting a bandaid on the patient's scraped knee. Sure, it's technically a minor help under certain circumstances, but the patient is still going to die if you don't fix the broken parts.

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10 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

It's like a patient coming into the Emergency Room with multiple gunshot wounds and a severed arm, and DE are putting a bandaid on the patient's scraped knee. Sure, it's technically a minor help under certain circumstances, but the patient is still going to die if you don't fix the broken parts

It's more like someone coming in thinking they have a gunshot wound when they in fact have none. There's nothing broken about rivens. If DE's views about Rivens don't line up with yours it doesn't mean there's something bad about it. Maybe DE will change their mind in the future but for now its a non issue.

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7 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Highlighted the word here. "Possible". You don't have to use the Cypher if you don't want to. No one is forcing you.

I think OPs main issue isn't being 'forced' to use them.

It is that he is upset that DE is wasting their efforts creating these when there are larger issues with Rivens that go unaddressed.

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4 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

It is that he is upset that DE is wasting their efforts creating these when there are larger issues with Rivens that go unaddressed.

In retrospect of similar-past complaints, the issues is starting look like self-made.

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For a lot/most, the challenges are just a small hoop we have to jump through to open our purple lootbox. Once you know the tricks, they're pretty simple, and they don't really add much to the riven system as a whole. The ciphers are mainly there to help players who might be struggling with a particular challenge, or who really don't like the challenge/s.

I don't think it was intended as a method to reduce the rng from rivens? You seem to be confusing the topics?

Yes it's true a lot of players would like to see the rng reduced from the riven system. In the past DE have seemed quite reluctant to engage in any dialogue on this matter. However, I'm optimistic they'll acknowledge the issues and come to the table one day to discuss an appropriate way forward. But this has nothing to do with the riven ciphers.

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What DE COULD have done, which we have asked for, for a very long time, is make the Riven Cypher allow us to hold a stat on the slot machine.. this crap of not doing the challenge is just stupid .. The main thing with rivens is the amount of slot-machine rolls needed which is a absolute ton of kuva, I know I spent 2.8 million Kuva over the last month or so just rolling a few rivens to get some good personal rivens for weapons I use.  Nothing great came out of that 2.8 million kuva spent.. just some good ones for me.. And I still have about 160 rivens that are average to just ok .. but to get that amount of Kuva now just way too time consuming for very little reward due to the slot-machine mechanics for rolling .. Maybe DE could make a Relay Casino we could go to and pay to sit and roll rivens.. oh hang on they do have that already in the orbitor... doh silly me.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I think OPs main issue isn't being 'forced' to use them.

It is that he is upset that DE is wasting their efforts creating these when there are larger issues with Rivens that go unaddressed.

Yeah as was said before these other "issues" are not really issues just complaints that they don't work how they think it should work. 

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Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-04 at 11:12 AM, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Yeah as was said before these other "issues" are not really issues just complaints that they don't work how they think it should work. 

It is an "issue". The issue is the multi layer RNG crap kills the appeal of rivens. Rivens are supposed to fix off meta weapons. How are players are gonna do that if the unfair RNG keeps preventing players to get the Riven for their favorite off meta weapon unless they pay inflated prices from greedy riven traders? 

Edited by DrivaMain
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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I want Riven Ciphers to reveal the riven for a weapon you want. You now eliminate an RNG layer while keeping supply still limited with the arbitrary weekly limit

Yes, great idea, though I'd tweak it. If you apply a cipher to a riven then it doesn't unlock it, it just ensures that it will be for whatever weapon you unlock it on.

I think DE really don't want that though, as they want rivens to push players to weapons they're not using, not make the meta weapons more powerful.

9 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:
17 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Highlighted the word here. "Possible". You don't have to use the Cypher if you don't want to. No one is forcing you.

I think OPs main issue isn't being 'forced' to use them.

It is that he is upset that DE is wasting their efforts creating these when there are larger issues with Rivens that go unaddressed

Yup. Dev time and effort is going in to these things that nobody asked for so they can clutter a shop that desperately needs good evergreen items (past Kuva and Umbral Forma).

That's before we even get to the new Teshin bobblehead, that's just trolling us.

Rivens have some horrible issues, a toxic marketplace and the worst and most frustrating RNG garbage in the game, but sure, you go fix the bit that was actual gameplay with a currency that's painful grind.

3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

It is an "issue". The issue is the multi layer RNG crap kills the appeal of rivens. Rivens are supposed to fix off meta weapons. How are players are gonna do that if the unfair RNG keeps preventing players to get the Riven for their favorite off meta weapon  unless they pay prices from greedy riven traders? 

Yup, but it's not even just the meta weapons. You get a riven for an off-meta gun, something that's never going to be the best in the game but that might be decent (not godly, just viable) if you can get a riven with, say, +Status and +Multishot.

How much Kuva, and how many rolls, do you think that mediocre riven takes, on average?

If rivens are supposed to make me pick up something very off meta (like an Arca Scisco, or Dual Toxocyst, or Tenora, or Drakgoon, etc) then I need to be able to get a riven that (at least) works for that off-meta gun.

The problem isn't rolling 500 times to get that perfect Vectis riven that only the riven mafia thinks is worthwhile.

The problem is that something like the Arca Scisco can be decent with a riven but needs 50-100 rolls just for that OK one. You want how many hours of grinding Kuva just to find out whether I can make this off-meta gun work?

That's why the market is obsessed with meta rivens. You going to invest many many Kuva-hours into it that gun better be amazing.

So rivens are supposed to make me try alternative weapons, but cost so much to roll they're only worthwhile for meta weapons.

That's what needs fixing. Not make it easier for players on their first few rivens struggling with the challenges.

 

Edited by (XBOX)KayAitch
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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I think DE really don't want that though, as they want rivens to push players to weapons they're not using, not make the meta weapons more powerful.

That’s why disposition exist. For me, I can finally unveil a riven mod for my kulstar without spending a small fortune to buy one.

Edited by DrivaMain
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16 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Can be fun is the operative portion of that sentence. There are several challenges that just aren't worth the effort or challenge. Since riven transmuters are still only available from eidolons, an awful challenge is just a dead riven to a lot of people, sold for scraps, given away, or burnt for endo.

That's standard DE response to issues. Instead of addressing problems, let's just give players an expensive way to skip it entirely.

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15 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

Taking a break and playing other things is a good thing.

Indeed it is... The problem is once you do that...

Not only do you see how other games succeed where Warframe doesn't.... But should you ever decide to come back to Warframe it's disheartening to see those Same issues still not fix or even Acknowledged in some cases. 😞

15 hours ago, Xarteros said:

The issue is that they're wasting time and effort on something that has absolutely glaring problems that everyone hates, and they've added a tiny little QoL thing that some people might use out of laziness.

In other words... It feels like DE is jerking us around on purposes...

15 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

It's more like someone coming in thinking they have a gunshot wound when they in fact have none. There's nothing broken about rivens. If DE's views about Rivens don't line up with yours it doesn't mean there's something bad about it. Maybe DE will change their mind in the future but for now its a non issue.

You would have a point... Except Rivens don't even achieve the very thing the developers themselves Claimed they created them for....

So either they are lying about the real purpose behind Rivens or they they just really suck at trying to fix them....

Considering how the Xoris Fiasco went down I'm going to say they are lying....

12 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

 

It is that he is upset that DE is wasting their efforts creating these when there are larger issues with Rivens that go unaddressed.

I mean that's basically DE's favourite Combo at this point.... Ignore large issues and fix irrelevant ones....

Or better... Nerf something that isn't even an issue at all.

12 hours ago, NekroArts said:

In retrospect of similar-past complaints, the issues is starting look like self-made.

How ? 

We have very little control over Rivens.... 🤔

11 hours ago, (PSN)iuvenilis said:

 

I don't think it was intended as a method to reduce the rng from rivens? You seem to be confusing the topics?

I think that's what you're doing....

TC is well aware that Riven Ciphers are not intended to be Solution to the RNG....

TC's main issue is why this aspect was Prioritised over the far larger one....

11 hours ago, (PSN)iuvenilis said:

 

Yes it's true a lot of players would like to see the rng reduced from the riven system. In the past DE have seemed quite reluctant to engage in any dialogue on this matter. However, I'm optimistic they'll acknowledge the issues and come to the table one day to discuss an appropriate way forward. But this has nothing to do with the riven ciphers.

That's exactly TC's point... Why are DE ignoring the larger issue to focus Riven Ciphers ?

 

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Personally, I think this provides a possible out to some problems. I got a freaking riven that was "Collect 14 Syndicate Medallions without tripping an alarm." Do you know HOW hard that is to complete? And no, if you were thinking that you could just do Orokin or Infested missions, I tried that. It resets randomly with them, seeing as they are hive minds. Missing one enemy could result in the entire challenge being reset. These Ciphers would help bypass that absolute crap.

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