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Unpopular Opinion: Rolling Guard + Decaying Dragon Key + Shield Gate Meta is Dumb and Shouldn't Exist


SenorClipClop
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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Well if you think the Bramma is brainless, I recommend trying the Kuva Nukor and/or a stronger melee build, you're in for a treat!

I have ranked, modded and tested all weapons in the game, i know quite well their power and thats why i avoid those i feel make the game too trivial or are absurdly powerful, i prefer not getting spoiled by these then upset my self when a deserved nerf drops.

Based on what i herd from the Devs, Kuva Nukor is in the "To be Nerfed" list. ^^

Edited by BiancaRoughfin
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1 minute ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

i know quite well their power

Then you should understand why nerfing explosive weapons with self damage is futile. They will simply be replaced in the meta by non-explosive AoE.

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30 Replies in 2 Hours... ? 

For a Feedback Topic this seems like a really hot button issue ūüė≥ !!!

1 hour ago, (PSN)Beluga_0 said:

I totally agree, eventough I haven¬īt experienced a lot of players doing this method on console

I barely also saw much of it aswell but apparently we have begun talking about more often. Lately. ūü§Ē

1 hour ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

Let us be clear here: Shields are still mostly worthless. Health, Armor, Adaptation and various forms of health healing still dominates in 99% of the game content.  Shield gate did nothing to make shield viable. It did nothing to encourage people to build shield. In fact, it incentivize against building shield.  

There actually is one instance where DE did make a change that actually benefit Shields.... The Granuum Treasurer ūüėą !!!

LoL.... I never said it benefitted Our Shields ūüėõ....¬†

But this does go to show just how terrible Shields are..... it takes 99% Damage Reduction + Status Immunity to actually make an enemy Resilient using Shields instead of Armor.

1 hour ago, Rawbeard said:

people actually need that to survive? huh. in that case, let them. doesn't harm you, does it?

You know... This is actually a good point....

Shield Gating is obviously a problem but I think important to contextualize exactly what type of problem it is.... Is it a Balance Problem ? Nope time and time again we've proven that Survivability is just that... It's overall bearing on your ability to Complete Objectives isn't all that much... It's why they never bother nerfing Invisibility.

So I think it's a Conceptual Problem.... It miss represents how Survivability is suppose to work.

 

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22 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Then you should understand why nerfing explosive weapons with self damage is futile. They will simply be replaced in the meta by non-explosive AoE.

Not true, adding the danger factor of Self-Damage back would make players more cautious when using explosive weapons and better plan their shots to take the most advantage of each shot.

There were very few weapons with AoE damage that didnt deal self damage but these also had lower damage compared to most.

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16 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

There were very few weapons with AoE damage that didnt deal self damage but these also had lower damage compared to most.

This is old. Melee weapons are stronger and easier AoE than any explosive now. Should melee be balanced by self damage?

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Just now, Xylena_Lazarow said:

This is old. Melee weapons are stronger and easier AoE than any explosive now. Should melee be balanced by self damage?

You do know that Glaives Explosions and Exodia Contagion had Self-Damage right?

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Just now, BiancaRoughfin said:

You do know that Glaives Explosions and Exodia Contagion had Self-Damage right?

You don't need those things to do massive AoE damage, just spam your melee button. Even if they nerf melee, there's still no downside to the AoE spam from Kuva Nukor, chain beam kitguns, and death blob weapons like Catchmoon/Stropha/Plasmor. Self damage solves nothing, it's just unfun for many players.

As for the OP, squish frames have no other option than to do this, there would need to be a massive shield system rework.

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47 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

You don't need those things to do massive AoE damage, just spam your melee button. Even if they nerf melee, there's still no downside to the AoE spam from Kuva Nukor, chain beam kitguns, and death blob weapons like Catchmoon/Stropha/Plasmor. Self damage solves nothing, it's just unfun for many players.

As for the OP, squish frames have no other option than to do this, there would need to be a massive shield system rework.

I keep asking my self whats with you insist on using Kuva Nukor/Link Beams and Melee's spam to compare with AoE EXPLOSIVE weapons? They are not related, it doesnt matter how much damage you deal with a Melee normal attack it never delt any self damage or currently self stagger aside Glaives throw or Exodia Contagion, they are not a factor for comparing and using meta as argument is incredibly dumb because Meta is just an excuse for lack of creativity and/or player experience.

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4 hours ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

As for the OP, squish frames have no other option than to do this . . .

There's a lot of frames I don't play much, but that's not true for Banshee anyway.

 

 

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Il y a 12 heures, Rawbeard a dit :

people actually need that to survive? huh. in that case, let them. doesn't harm you, does it?

It affects me since they are in my missions and cheese the game. Maybe I don't want the game to be cheesed and want to enjoy risks and some struggle?

It's like bringing limbo or khora to (mobile) defense, it's stupid and boring.

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13 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Replacing Self Damage with Self Stagger was also a big mistake, it opened up the path for brain dead playstyles where people run pointing explosive weapons like the Bramma at their feet and spamming the fire button.

No self stagger is way better. I don't like my pet or some dumb teammate suddenly jump in front of me when I fire explosives weapons. Resulting in my "unfair" demise.

Self Damage isn't coming back. The large challenge phobia crowd are not going to allow it.

Regarding this "exploitive" combo. There are a lot of ways to achieve immortality in this game. The biggest offender are operators. If this combo is nerfed those users will find something else. But for the sake of this topic, I will say deactivate shield gating when the dragon key is equipped. There, problem solved.

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14 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

[...] is too strong to ignore.

Definitely not. You wont need to cheese shield-gating to do level-cap either. I really hate doing the dragon key cheese so I dont do it. its not excluding me from any content, the game isn't pushing it at all, its extremely elective.

I think adding a shield gate was a good thing, made a lot of weaker frames more viable in later-game activities.

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Posted (edited)

No idea why you think the dragon key part being dumb is an unpopular opinion. Even the people promoting it know very well that's not the application dragon keys were made for since shield gating didn't even exist back then. I'm pretty meta oriented and even I think it's a dumb exploit (and annoying) to use and thus I don't. DE - as per usual - just takes forever to adress it by making one of a billion possible tiny changes to the key (deactivate shield gating, reduce all shield gains and recharge rate by 75%, reduce shield gate time by 75% and so on) to get rid of it from general play putting it back into only vault runs as a handicap what it's intended to be for. I also don't care about Chroma or Rage/Adrenaline applications for the key. That's also NOT what it is intended for.

Edited by (PSN)Deeceem
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On 2021-05-04 at 8:35 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

...

Replacing Self Damage with Self Stagger was also a big mistake, it opened up the path for brain dead playstyles where people run pointing explosive weapons like the Bramma at their feet and spamming the fire button.

Completely agree with that, too.

 

On 2021-05-04 at 9:56 PM, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Well if you think the Bramma is brainless, I recommend trying the Kuva Nukor and/or a stronger melee build, you're in for a treat!

That's a strawman argument. You can't alternatively shoot your melee across the map -- and out of complete cover if necessary -- for the same effect. And anyway, just because one thing is broken (melee) doesn't mean one can't have a negative opinion on when they dumbed down another thing (explosives).

Your belittling way of talking doesn't help your case, either.

 

On 2021-05-04 at 9:45 PM, SenorClipClop said:

That, and studio crunch is bad. Maybe DE could have released the kind of Railjack experience they promised at TC2018, but even if possible it would've involved a ton of mandatory crunch: obligatory overtime, burnout, and the deterioration of a lot of staff members' mental and physical health. I would much rather a humbler release or a longer wait for a game than the burnout of a creative team and/or a half-baked release.

I agree, and am still of the opinion it was a major mistake to release it in the shape it was. Should've parceled it out even more or come up with something else.

To me it feels like they've overreacted or haven't thought things through in quite a few ways since then. I'd rather have less and with less bugs, to be quite honest.

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As several have already pointed out, the 1.3 sec "full immunity from everything" kicking in only after shields have fully recharged doesn't make shields more relevant. What it does is make small shields more relevant than large shields, so if the idea is to buff shields and make them more relevant one could even say it is a stupid solution.

There is also no logic reason for a 1.3 sec "shield gate extra total immunity". Our enemies have a 0.1 sec shield gate "damage reduction" with a 5% damage bleed-through.

An easy and logical fix would be to:

  1. allow the same amount of damage bleed-through that our enemies have¬†‚ě°ÔłŹ¬†"total immunity" changes to 95% damage reduction¬†(5% damage bleed-through)
  2. ¬†make the damage reduction time (the former "immunity") dependent on the max shield value¬†(reached during the last recharge cycle before taking damage)¬†‚ě°ÔłŹ bigger shields (+ faster recharge) = longer periods of damage reduction

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

-snip-

100% agree with all this. Make the Shield features more important and impactful the more a player specs into using Shields.

Edited by SenorClipClop
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2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

That's a strawman argument. You can't alternatively shoot your melee across the map -- and out of complete cover if necessary -- for the same effect. And anyway, just because one thing is broken (melee) doesn't mean one can't have a negative opinion on when they dumbed down another thing (explosives).

Your belittling way of talking doesn't help your case, either.

Stack speed and range on your melee and you will indeed cover as much area as a cluster bomb, while dealing even more damage, with no risk of self harm and no worry about ammo. I suppose you won't be behind cover anymore, but you would have something else making your frame nigh unkillable as it beyblades across the map. Granted, DE is going to nerf these things soon, maybe the Kuva Nukor too, but then you will still have things like beam kitguns and Stropha and Granum Plasmor clearing crowds just as fast as any Bramma or Ogris, but with no risk of self harm. Explosive AoE is not necessarily stronger than non-explosive AoE in this game.

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26 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Stack speed and range on your melee and you will indeed cover as much area as a cluster bomb, while dealing even more damage, with no risk of self harm and no worry about ammo. I suppose you won't be behind cover anymore, but you would have something else making your frame nigh unkillable as it beyblades across the map. Granted, DE is going to nerf these things soon, maybe the Kuva Nukor too, but then you will still have things like beam kitguns and Stropha and Granum Plasmor clearing crowds just as fast as any Bramma or Ogris, but with no risk of self harm. Explosive AoE is not necessarily stronger than non-explosive AoE in this game.

Ah, I see.

You simply don't get that the point being made is that it's apples and oranges.

It's clear that DE dropped the ball on balancing between weapon classes and stats within them a long time ago. That's beside the point, though. But yes, if all you see is how big the numbers go, then of course you wouldn't agree, no surprise.

Also, I don't think they're going to significantly nerf anything. That hasn't been their strategy for years, and it shows.

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7 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

You simply don't get that the point being made is that it's apples and oranges.

I get it, and disagree with it. AoE is AoE, whether it's flavored as an "explosion" has nothing to do with balancing it.

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Just now, Xylena_Lazarow said:

I get it, and disagree with it. AoE is AoE, whether it's flavored as an "explosion" has nothing to do with balancing it.

Eh, your previous posts don't leave that impression.

But anyway, it used to, though. Before the era of Tonkor. AoE and high numbers were justified with the increased risk of self harm. Now the game is all over the place. Complete removal of self-harm was still a mistake in my opinion, because it also removed a playstyle and some interesting interactions.

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Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-04 at 2:35 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

I agree. A think a Solution would be [DE] disable Dragon Key`s effects on missions outside Deimos/Derelict missions where vaults spawn.

Or they could give it a different negative effect. Like greatly increasing shield recharge time/making delay before your shield starts recharging longer/something like that. 

That way we wouldn't be cutting off riven challenges, or any fun synergies at the knees. We don't need to cut out all dragon keys outside specific dragon key missions because one out of the four can be exploited. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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Posted (edited)

I don't understand the problem with shield gating. Using a decaying dragon key makes it easier to refresh a 1.3 second invulnerability period. Shield gate from not full shields is .33 seconds, the average human reaction time is something like .25 seconds. Without a dragon key and ping over 80ms, the average human could not react fast enough to take advantage of shield gating. You also have to actually cast an ability in that time. Most abilities take about a second to cast and you don't regen shields from Brief Respite/Augur Set mods until the ability is finished casting. 

One second ability cast time + .25 second reaction time + 80 ms ping = 1.3 seconds. So, if you have average response time and decent ping you might be able to reset your shield gate without using rolling guard. Rolling Guard procs as soon as you roll so your 3 second invulnerability period starts then but, rolling takes nearly a second to finish before you can cast an ability, then there is the cast time, reaction time and ping. You are also casting during rolling guard so your 1.3 second shield gate invulnerability period is overlapping with Rolling Guard invulnerability period. Perfectly timed rolling guard + shield gate grants 3.33-4.3 seconds of invulnerability but all things considered the time is actually much shorter. Then you have to wait 7 seconds before you can proc Rolling Guard again. 

You can run things like Amalgam Barrel Diffusion and Natural Talent to shave ms off that time but even with Rolling Guard and a dragon key shield gating is far from the invincibility that people like to claim it is. With as many methods we have to cheese this game I just think it's funny that resetting 1.3 second invulnerability period is such a big deal when it doesn't effect anyone else's gaming experience. If you don't like shield gating, don't use it. You can build for health, armor, damage reduction and healing. 

 

Edited by Berzerkules
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Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-04 at 8:01 PM, SenorClipClop said:

Rolling Guard, Decaying Dragon Key and Shield Gate are all fine on their own, but their combined effects make things lame.

At least the player has to be activce & perceptive to not die, even at lower lvls. I won't deny, there is a design flaw in shield gate, as more shields do nothing but harm.

That said, do you know what's really lame? Stacking high armor/HP values & Adaptation & an innate 90%DR ability & arcanes so that a Frame becomes immortal while afk outside of endurance runs.

Edited by ShortCat
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7 hours ago, ShortCat said:

That said, do you know what's really lame? Stacking high armor/HP values & Adaptation & an innate 90%DR ability & arcanes so that a Frame becomes immortal while afk outside of endurance runs.

IKR? We've got an entire frame whose sole purpose is to be passively immortal, but the real problem is Brief Respite Mirage or whatever...

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