Jump to content

Unpopular Opinion: Rolling Guard + Decaying Dragon Key + Shield Gate Meta is Dumb and Shouldn't Exist


SenorClipClop
 Share

Recommended Posts

For something that is just too powerful to ignore, I sure do ignore this enough that it didn't even register as a "thing" to consider until I read this post, and I will go right back to ignoring it and letting people have their fun.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-05-04 at 2:35 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

I agree. A think a Solution would be [DE] disable Dragon Key`s effects on missions outside Deimos/Derelict missions where vaults spawn.

Corpus Cameras taking 2 hits to break no matter the weapon...

Replacing Self Damage with Self Stagger was also a big mistake, it opened up the path for brain dead playstyles where people run pointing explosive weapons like the Bramma at their feet and spamming the fire button.

i agree i miss the days where i got to teabag noobs who killed themselves with the bramma. the one fun thing that was left in the game and adding self stagger to weapons like Astilla and  few others that make no sense at all

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-05-05 at 2:35 AM, BiancaRoughfin said:

Corpus Cameras taking 2 hits to break no matter the weapon...

What?

5% of damage bleeds past enemy Shield Gating, and Cameras have abysmally low health (usually just 10). IDK what kind of weapons and mods you're using that you ever need 2 hits to destroy a camera.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree and I think it's just one of those things that have been overlooked (which is normal to happen) and not fixed asap.Same as we had catchmoon not been fixed for almost a year now this and epitaph.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-08 at 6:15 PM, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Shield gate happened because no one knows how to replace hit scan

I very much doubt that, although of course that touches on the broader discussion on balance (or rather, lack thereof).

There were always other solutions, e.g. bringing the defensive stats of different Warframes closer together. And if I recall correctly, there was a fair bit of campaigning involved here, too.

Edited by Kontrollo
typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I saw a suggestion on a similar thread.  I'm paraphrasing, but one fix would be to just have the Decaying Dragon Key also disable shield gating while worn.  The exploit is solved while still allowing a wider range of frames to play on high level content.

 

As for Rolling Guard, well, that could be a simple rework if it's still proving to be exploitative.  Though honestly operators are every bit as exploitative, and can make you functionally immortal as well. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rolling Guard is not an issue, Decaying Key is not an issue, it just makes the shield-gating issue more easily abusable. The key itself is a symptom, not the issue. To fix shield gating there could be a few tweaks, I've posted about shield-gating fixes so I'll just copy paste my bit here.

  • Shield gate now has a cooldown that only resets when out of combat for a short duration.
    • shield gate is consumed upon shields being entirely depleted, it is only replenished once the recharge delay is met
    • shields are replenished instantly to 100% after being out of combat (no damage taken) for a short delay
      • 2.0s delay for partially depleted shields
      • 4.0s delay for fully depleted shields
      • upon shield recharge delay being met shield-gates are active again, this is the only way to reset the gate
         
  • Shield gating duration now scales depending on the amount of max shields and also in some instances, the current over-shields value.
    • shield gating has a base duration of 100ms
      • shield gating duration increased by 1ms for each point of max shields
    • if shields are depleted in one damage instance then the duration is
      increased by 1ms for each point of over-shields depleted (only if over-shields are active)

unknown.png

Along with this we should have mods that increase the elemental resistance our shields have, at base our shields reduce incoming damage from all types by 25% (except for toxin as it bypasses them, which is an unhealthy mechanic but a separate issue I won't get into right now). If we were able to modify this resistance value, this would make shields relevant outside of solely being used to achieve invulnerability via gating. As shields currently are their only purpose is the gating, this is because when compared to armour they have such miniscule reduction that it isn't able to be built for.

With my suggested changes above and then a new design of being able to increase the shield elemental resistance damage reduction values via mods or some other methods, then shields would be able to actually compete against armour on shield-heavy units. These suggestions also entirely remove shield-gating abuse, and cement shields in a spot of their own instead of just being a means to achieving invincibility.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-05-07 at 1:39 AM, Berzerkules said:

I don't understand the problem with shield gating. Using a decaying dragon key makes it easier to refresh a 1.3 second invulnerability period

IIRC, the idea is ito avoid the reduced invulnerability time. If you get hit again while the shields are recharging, the invulnerability period is 0.3 seconds - which may not be enough time to survive big AoE damage. Hence you want as low a shield as possible, to ensure that they are always recharged to trigger the full invulnerability time, almost constantly.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

IIRC, the idea is ito avoid the reduced invulnerability time. If you get hit again while the shields are recharging, the invulnerability period is 0.3 seconds - which may not be enough time to survive big AoE damage. Hence you want as low a shield as possible, to ensure that they are always recharged to trigger the full invulnerability time, almost constantly.

Decaying Dragon Key is pretty much mandatory if you are running a shield gating build. That's what I explained in the rest of my post you quoted. From not full shields you only get .33 seconds invulnerability time and that is worthless when you consider casting speed, ping and reaction time. The average person could not react fast enough to save themselves in that .33 seconds. Even if you have super human reflexes and you're playing as host the time it takes to actually cast an ability is greater that .33 seconds and you would die. 

There are very few situations where you can actually regen to full shields in one ability cast without using a Decaying Dragon Key. You need a frame with very low base shields (most likely a non prime version), run Blind Rage for 45% efficiency, most if not all Augur Set mods and Brief Respite. The problem with that is you are gimping your kit to use one specific mechanic and chances are the build would fail.

I can reset to max shields in one cast without Decaying Dragon Key on Mirage Prime with 5/6 Augur mods, Brief Respite and Blind Rage but, I can't fit 2 mods that make the build playable. Shield gating is trash without Decaying Dragon Key. 

Even with a key it doesn't work well on builds with high efficiency or ones without a high energy drain spammable ability. It's not necessary or even beneficial for the majority of content. It does not provide immortality. It's more work because it requires the player to pay more attention than a basic tank build but, in very niche situations like endurance it is better. 

DE could change the interaction with a Decaying Dragon Key or totally rework shield gating but, since the amount of players that use the mechanic and would actually be effected would be so minimal, what's the point? Would it make the game any better or would it limit the frames that are endurance viable? DE does not care about endurance, some players care what other players are doing though, even if it has no negative impact on the game or their own experience playing the game.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-12 at 3:48 AM, Berzerkules said:

...

DE could change the interaction with a Decaying Dragon Key or totally rework shield gating but, since the amount of players that use the mechanic and would actually be effected would be so minimal, what's the point? Would it make the game any better or would it limit the frames that are endurance viable? DE does not care about endurance, some players care what other players are doing though, even if it has no negative impact on the game or their own experience playing the game.

I disagree.

Unless playing Nidus or Inaros, I cannot opt out of Shield Gating.

On one hand that's a problem as it trains you to time your reaction to that invulnerability period and otherwise just ignore incoming damage. On an otherwise squishy frame, I usually die when I think I had full shields and the full duration when in fact I did not. It doesn't feel proper, just random.

On the other hand, it gives rise to these kinds of "degenerate" -- or let's call it unintended -- builds. Luckily, right now nothing really requires them. But just wait until something does, and then it'll suddenly be turned a requirement for (almost) everyone. Like Railjack did to Archwing choice.

Edited by Kontrollo
typos
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-04 at 7:01 PM, SenorClipClop said:

Title

funny I made almost this exact same thread months ago, not such an unpopular opinion !

 

On 2021-05-04 at 7:16 PM, Kontrollo said:

Shield Gate was a mistake.

what would happen before if you had 1000 shield and 1000 health and an enemy hit you for 3000 you would instantly die, what happens now is you take 1000 damage to your shields the 2000 extra is absorbed, you get a short invunrability window and if  hit again before your shields charge then you die

I don't think it was a mistake, I think squish frames being folded in half by a stray bullet was just dumb, shield gate gives a reaction window where you can avoid death.

 

the mistake is letting people lower shields to the point where they can get more uptime on the invulnerability than the shields themselves

 

Edited by _Anise_
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Kontrollo said:

I disagree.

Unless playing Nidus or Inaros, I cannot opt out of Shield Gating.

On one hand that's a problem as it trains you to time your reaction to that invulnerability period, and otherwise just ignore incoming damage. On an otherwise squishy frame, I usually die when I think I had full shields and the full duration when in fact it was not. It doesn't feel proper, just random.

On the other hand, it gives rise to these kinds of "degenerate" -- or let's call it unintended -- builds. Luckily, right now nothing really requires them. But just wait until something does, and then it'll suddenly be turned a requirement for (almost) everyone. Like Railjack did to Archwing choice.

Shield gating is 100% unnecessary in almost every situation. Most players don't even know what it means and the ones that do don't build for it because they never had to before. Shield gating excels in endurance but besides that you might as well just run a regular build. 

Frames can still be built with health, armor and healing and go for a 2-3 hour SP survival without intentionally using shield gating. Some frames will do better than others because they have higher base stats. Healing Return and Adaptation can carry a frame for a long time. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-05-18 at 2:26 AM, Berzerkules said:

Shield gating is 100% unnecessary in almost every situation. Most players don't even know what it means and the ones that do don't build for it because they never had to before. Shield gating excels in endurance but besides that you might as well just run a regular build. 

Frames can still be built with health, armor and healing and go for a 2-3 hour SP survival without intentionally using shield gating. Some frames will do better than others because they have higher base stats. Healing Return and Adaptation can carry a frame for a long time. 

I think I already addressed the first point: "Luckily, right now nothing really requires them. But just wait until something does, and then it'll suddenly be turned a requirement for (almost) everyone. Like Railjack did to Archwing choice."

Second part: some can do that, I guess. But it'd be more mod slots, and riskier. There's a difference between high damage absorption and invulnerability.

Besides, that was not the only thing I mentioned.

 

On 2021-05-19 at 12:50 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Don't use it if you don't like it. This game has many things random people think the game shouldn't have, yet they're still here.

I cannot opt out of Shield Gating (see my previous post). Besides it's relatively new, for the most part of this game's existence, it wasn't a thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

I think I already addressed the first point: "Luckily, right now nothing really requires them. But just wait until something does, and then it'll suddenly be turned a requirement for (almost) everyone. Like Railjack did to Archwing choice."

Second part: some can do that, I guess. But it'd be more mod slots, and riskier. There's a difference between high damage absorption and invulnerability.

Besides, that was not the only thing I mentioned.

 

I cannot opt out of Shield Gating (see my previous post). Besides it's relatively new, for the most part of this game's existence, it wasn't a thing.

Is using a "what if" DE releases content that requires shield gating really a valid argument? Currently we have nothing that requires it, it's a 100% optional way to build to build frames. As for rj, I've maxed intrinsics, I cleared all rj nodes solo and used Itzal in every archwing mission I've ever ran. Amesha is better but I never had the need to use it and didn't want to forma it. 

Shield gating and basic tank builds don't really require more or less mods, just different mods. Shield gating builds pretty much lock you into one aura mod and it that's not enough fully reset shield gate in one cast you start stacking augur set mods, then you have rolling guard and natural talent. You have to find a balance between ability efficiency and shield regen per cast or it just doesn't work. With basic tank/healing builds you use a hp mod, adaptation and armor if you want then heal with melee/arcanes until you can't maintain anymore. 

As I've stated multiple times in this thread the damage invulnerability period from shield gating is so minimal that using a key is pretty much the only way to reliably use shield gating. Ping, reaction time or casting speed is greater than the invulnerability period from partial shields so, trying to shield gating from partial shields is 100% pointless. Even at full shields it's cutting it close on time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

I think I already addressed the first point: "Luckily, right now nothing really requires them. But just wait until something does, and then it'll suddenly be turned a requirement for (almost) everyone. Like Railjack did to Archwing choice."

Second part: some can do that, I guess. But it'd be more mod slots, and riskier. There's a difference between high damage absorption and invulnerability.

Besides, that was not the only thing I mentioned.

 

I cannot opt out of Shield Gating (see my previous post). Besides it's relatively new, for the most part of this game's existence, it wasn't a thing.

You can choose to not use a dragon key, making your shield take longer to regenerate.

And people asked for shield gating. I saw all the well thought out and constructed posts. There's no point in deleting it now just because.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-05-19 at 3:50 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Don't use it if you don't like it. This game has many things random people think the game shouldn't have, yet they're still here.

I've never seen you have a good take on balancing. You always suggest to just not use the poorly balanced thing, which is just silly. Opting to not personally use a build doesn't mean the balance issue is suddenly not there, you're just avoiding it and burying your head in the sand.

Shield gate needs to be a function of max shields, and it should only reset when you've been out of combat for X amount of time. This means frames that can grant themselves shield regeneration are no longer able to abuse the ever-living poop out of shield-gates, and tanks like Grendel with a minimal amount of shields that are meant to be health tanks, no longer get the same benefit that a frame like Hildryn, Mag, or Volt would, for having plenty of shields.

Shield/Shield Gating Fixes:

  • Shield gate now has a cooldown that only resets when out of combat for a short duration.
    • shield gate is consumed upon shields being entirely depleted, it is only replenished once the recharge delay is met
    • shields are replenished instantly to 100% after being out of combat (no damage taken) for a short delay
      • 2.0s delay for partially depleted shields
      • 4.0s delay for fully depleted shields
      • upon shield recharge delay being met shield-gates are active again, this is the only way to reset the gate
        once the shields have been depleted and the shield-gate "consumed"
         
  • Shield gating duration now scales depending on the amount of max shields and also in some instances, the current over-shields value.
    • shield gating has a base duration of 100ms
      • shield gating duration increased by 1ms for each point of max shields
    • if shields are depleted in one damage instance then the duration is
      increased by 1ms for each point of over-shields depleted (only if over-shields are active)
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, scam said:

I've never seen you have a good take on balancing. You always suggest to just not use the poorly balanced thing, which is just silly. Opting to not personally use a build doesn't mean the balance issue is suddenly not there, you're just avoiding it and burying your head in the sand.

Shield gate needs to be a function of max shields, and it should only reset when you've been out of combat for X amount of time. This means frames that can grant themselves shield regeneration are no longer able to abuse the ever-living poop out of shield-gates, and tanks like Grendel with a minimal amount of shields that are meant to be health tanks, no longer get the same benefit that a frame like Hildryn, Mag, or Volt would, for having plenty of shields.

Shield/Shield Gating Fixes:

  • Shield gate now has a cooldown that only resets when out of combat for a short duration.
    • shield gate is consumed upon shields being entirely depleted, it is only replenished once the recharge delay is met
    • shields are replenished instantly to 100% after being out of combat (no damage taken) for a short delay
      • 2.0s delay for partially depleted shields
      • 4.0s delay for fully depleted shields
      • upon shield recharge delay being met shield-gates are active again, this is the only way to reset the gate
        once the shields have been depleted and the shield-gate "consumed"
         
  • Shield gating duration now scales depending on the amount of max shields and also in some instances, the current over-shields value.
    • shield gating has a base duration of 100ms
      • shield gating duration increased by 1ms for each point of max shields
    • if shields are depleted in one damage instance then the duration is
      increased by 1ms for each point of over-shields depleted (only if over-shields are active)

Shield gating was also to address enemy damage and splash damage. It doesn't matter what you think grendel was for. It was for all frames to have a split second to not die and recover when we get hit by multiple forms of splash damage or bombarded with enemy fire.

This is kinda a horde based game, I can't remember many times I've had a 4 second break in combat either.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-22 at 2:21 AM, Berzerkules said:

Is using a "what if" DE releases content that requires shield gating really a valid argument? Currently we have nothing that requires it, it's a 100% optional way to build to build frames. As for rj, I've maxed intrinsics, I cleared all rj nodes solo and used Itzal in every archwing mission I've ever ran. Amesha is better but I never had the need to use it and didn't want to forma it. 

Shield gating and basic tank builds don't really require more or less mods, just different mods. Shield gating builds pretty much lock you into one aura mod and it that's not enough fully reset shield gate in one cast you start stacking augur set mods, then you have rolling guard and natural talent. You have to find a balance between ability efficiency and shield regen per cast or it just doesn't work. With basic tank/healing builds you use a hp mod, adaptation and armor if you want then heal with melee/arcanes until you can't maintain anymore. 

As I've stated multiple times in this thread the damage invulnerability period from shield gating is so minimal that using a key is pretty much the only way to reliably use shield gating. Ping, reaction time or casting speed is greater than the invulnerability period from partial shields so, trying to shield gating from partial shields is 100% pointless. Even at full shields it's cutting it close on time. 

Well, raids are on the horizon again, that's mainly why I'm thinking about that.

Also, maybe you weren't playing Railjack back then, but you could get one-shot even during the exit animation. That's when eveyone switched to Amesha. Later they added invulnerability to leaving the Railjack, at least. Now? I don't know, Command makes my bots shoot everything anyway, and I haven't tried playing it in public squads. There were just so many bugs that I'm glad I can play it solo.

The invulnerability period is enough to switch to operator and go invincible even if shields weren't full. Hop to a safe spot and use an ability. Example: what I'm doing now sometimes is run Incursions on a squishy Warframe, my only defensive mod being Rolling Guard (no key), and that at least has some decent difficulty for me.

It revolves almost entirely around invincibility now, though.

Edited by Kontrollo
clarified
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-05-22 at 6:58 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Shield gating was also to address enemy damage and splash damage. It doesn't matter what you think grendel was for. It was for all frames to have a split second to not die and recover when we get hit by multiple forms of splash damage or bombarded with enemy fire.

This is kinda a horde based game, I can't remember many times I've had a 4 second break in combat either.

Yes, I know that's what it was intended for, but it should not be just as effective on a 75 shield frame, as a 900+ shield frame. We also need ways to increase our overall shield resistances, because as it stands we can't improve the reduction our shields has so it always, aside from shield-gating, falls drastically behind when compared to armour reduction. On a shield-heavy frame you should be able to effectively mimic the armour tanking an armour/health heavy frame can get, just through a different means.

On 2021-05-21 at 5:21 PM, Berzerkules said:

Is using a "what if" DE releases content that requires shield gating really a valid argument? Currently we have nothing that requires it, it's a 100% optional way to build to build frames. As for rj, I've maxed intrinsics, I cleared all rj nodes solo and used Itzal in every archwing mission I've ever ran. Amesha is better but I never had the need to use it and didn't want to forma it. 

Shield gating and basic tank builds don't really require more or less mods, just different mods. Shield gating builds pretty much lock you into one aura mod and it that's not enough fully reset shield gate in one cast you start stacking augur set mods, then you have rolling guard and natural talent. You have to find a balance between ability efficiency and shield regen per cast or it just doesn't work. With basic tank/healing builds you use a hp mod, adaptation and armor if you want then heal with melee/arcanes until you can't maintain anymore. 

As I've stated multiple times in this thread the damage invulnerability period from shield gating is so minimal that using a key is pretty much the only way to reliably use shield gating. Ping, reaction time or casting speed is greater than the invulnerability period from partial shields so, trying to shield gating from partial shields is 100% pointless. Even at full shields it's cutting it close on time. 

Just because we don't absolutely need to rely on it for general/casual content does not mean it does not present an inherent issue to the game's balance. The issue exists, and should be addressed, whether it's an issue in casual play or not. Also, that's saying a lot, any frame with shield replenishing effects, as well as Arcane Aegis, allows you to effectively abuse shield-gating, just because you don't need to rely on it to stay alive in low level content doesn't mean you can't abuse it there, it's still an issue. For Mag all you have to do to replenish shields is press her 3 or 4, you don't build for max shields on her to get more effective health because then you can't replenish the gate nearly as fast, and it requires multiple casts. Get hit and shields break? You're now invincible! Press 3 or 4 to refresh your invincibility window, you can do this effectively infinitely so long as you have energy, which should never be an issue with a proper mod setup. While I am a Mag main and admit it can be fun to just sit and spam that away and never die, I understand how absurdly imbalanced it is.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, scam said:

Yes, I know that's what it was intended for, but it should not be just as effective on a 75 shield frame, as a 900+ shield frame. We also need ways to increase our overall shield resistances, because as it stands we can't improve the reduction our shields has so it always, aside from shield-gating, falls drastically behind when compared to armour reduction. On a shield-heavy frame you should be able to effectively mimic the armour tanking an armour/health heavy frame can get, just through a different means.

Sooo, a second health bar, basically? Because that's what that is. Many avenues for that to be taken advantage of.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

The invulnerability period is enough to switch to operator and go invincible even if shields weren't full. Hop to a safe spot and use an ability. Example: what I'm doing now sometimes is run Incursions on a squishy Warframe, my only defensive mod being Rolling Guard (no key), and that at least has some decent difficulty for me.

It revolves almost entirely around invincibility now, though.

If you go spoiler mode with an active channeled ability you still take damage, you're not safe and you will die.

4 hours ago, scam said:

Yes, I know that's what it was intended for, but it should not be just as effective on a 75 shield frame, as a 900+ shield frame. We also need ways to increase our overall shield resistances, because as it stands we can't improve the reduction our shields has so it always, aside from shield-gating, falls drastically behind when compared to armour reduction. On a shield-heavy frame you should be able to effectively mimic the armour tanking an armour/health heavy frame can get, just through a different means.

Just because we don't absolutely need to rely on it for general/casual content does not mean it does not present an inherent issue to the game's balance. The issue exists, and should be addressed, whether it's an issue in casual play or not. Also, that's saying a lot, any frame with shield replenishing effects, as well as Arcane Aegis, allows you to effectively abuse shield-gating, just because you don't need to rely on it to stay alive in low level content doesn't mean you can't abuse it there, it's still an issue. For Mag all you have to do to replenish shields is press her 3 or 4, you don't build for max shields on her to get more effective health because then you can't replenish the gate nearly as fast, and it requires multiple casts. Get hit and shields break? You're now invincible! Press 3 or 4 to refresh your invincibility window, you can do this effectively infinitely so long as you have energy, which should never be an issue with a proper mod setup. While I am a Mag main and admit it can be fun to just sit and spam that away and never die, I understand how absurdly imbalanced it is.

I can't explain the timing of shield gating and how ping, reaction time, how long it takes to proc rolling guard and casting speed all factor into it again. I've already done it several times in this thread and I don't want to do it again. 

I have trash ping and can't use shield gating in a group without a key, even then it's sketchy at best. It's not a perfect system by far but I can work with it. If DE changes we all know it won't be for the better and I'll just have to go back to some form of boring ass tank/healing builds on frames that have inferior stats that don't lend themselves to that sort of playstyle. 

There is literally dozens of ways to heal or increase hp or armor but I just find it boring. I can play squishy frames and rely on my reaction speed, I find it more engaging because if I make a mistake, I die. If I build tanky and heal, I can maintain until enemy damage scales to the point I just get one shot and nothing I do matters anymore. 

We have frames that go invis, a 100% invulnerable frame, we can subsume resonator on to any frame and break enemy ai and there are so many other ways to break the game. Resetting a 1.3 second invulnerability period is such a non issue compared to every other way we trivialize the content in this game imo.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

If you go spoiler mode with an active channeled ability you still take damage, you're not safe and you will die.

Well, if I did that, I'd still have increased my Warframe's EHP by a factor of 10, I think, all for the short while I'm moving to a safe spot to cast. But you can come up with imagined scenarios all you like, that just doesn't change my impression and the impact it has on my gameplay.

With Shield Gate, it's mostly just about being invulnerable in one way or another now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Sooo, a second health bar, basically? Because that's what that is. Many avenues for that to be taken advantage of.

It would be similar to another health bar, it already is. It would just actually be useful outside of gating abuse. Since gating isn't affected by shield amount, you're effectively punished for having higher shields because shields give such a miniscule reduction that it's not really worth building for the shield amount, and the only reason to use shields is to abuse gating. To do this you want as low of a shield amount as possible, because higher shields = longer regeneration period = longer to recharge gating. So yes, another health bar that regenerates outside of combat, the resistances would be lower base than armour resistances, but could be brought up to a nearly similar level with modding for the reduction on them. This would allow squishier frames to just use shields for the gate period, if they need brief periods of invulnerability but not up front tankiness, and then shield "tanks" like Hildryn and Mag could also build for the reduction if they wish, so they are able to tank up front damage with shields but not just by abusing gating. It would be well balanced and designed, current shields have issues.

2 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

If you go spoiler mode with an active channeled ability you still take damage, you're not safe and you will die.

I can't explain the timing of shield gating and how ping, reaction time, how long it takes to proc rolling guard and casting speed all factor into it again. I've already done it several times in this thread and I don't want to do it again. 

I have trash ping and can't use shield gating in a group without a key, even then it's sketchy at best. It's not a perfect system by far but I can work with it. If DE changes we all know it won't be for the better and I'll just have to go back to some form of boring ass tank/healing builds on frames that have inferior stats that don't lend themselves to that sort of playstyle. 

There is literally dozens of ways to heal or increase hp or armor but I just find it boring. I can play squishy frames and rely on my reaction speed, I find it more engaging because if I make a mistake, I die. If I build tanky and heal, I can maintain until enemy damage scales to the point I just get one shot and nothing I do matters anymore. 

We have frames that go invis, a 100% invulnerable frame, we can subsume resonator on to any frame and break enemy ai and there are so many other ways to break the game. Resetting a 1.3 second invulnerability period is such a non issue compared to every other way we trivialize the content in this game imo.

Just because there are other methods to survive doesn't mean this isn't an issue. Kuva Nukor is super overpowered and has needed nerfs since it was released. This doesn't mean no other secondary weapon is overpowered, one issue/exploit existing doesn't mean the rest of them suddenly don't matter. That's a horrible way to look at game design/balance.

Here is my suggestions for shields that would fix shield-gating abuse in it's entirety, as well as allowing us to use what I mentioned earlier, having shields be another way to achieve tankiness, just through a different method.

On 2021-05-22 at 2:11 AM, scam said:

Shield/Shield Gating Fixes:

  • Shield gate now has a cooldown that only resets when out of combat for a short duration.
    • shield gate is consumed upon shields being entirely depleted, it is only replenished once the recharge delay is met
    • shields are replenished instantly to 100% after being out of combat (no damage taken) for a short delay
      • 2.0s delay for partially depleted shields
      • 4.0s delay for fully depleted shields
      • upon shield recharge delay being met shield-gates are active again, this is the only way to reset the gate
        once the shields have been depleted and the shield-gate "consumed"
         
  • Shield gating duration now scales depending on the amount of max shields and also in some instances, the current over-shields value.
    • shield gating has a base duration of 100ms
      • shield gating duration increased by 1ms for each point of max shields
    • if shields are depleted in one damage instance then the duration is
      increased by 1ms for each point of over-shields depleted (only if over-shields are active)

And of course, to top it all off, we would be able to increase our shield's damage reduction values, and could also have a small base reduction buff to shields.

unknown.png

Being able to increase this reduction from shields to somewhere around 70%-80% if specifically built for. This would equalize the shield and armour discrepancy without inherently making them super overpowered, and keeping their unique function of gating invulnerability intact for squishier frames that solely need short bursts of survivability, not actual up front tankiness.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...