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Unpopular Opinion: Rolling Guard + Decaying Dragon Key + Shield Gate Meta is Dumb and Shouldn't Exist


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Just now, Kontrollo said:

Well, if I did that, I'd still have increased my Warframe's EHP by a factor of 10, I think, all for the short while I'm moving to a safe spot to cast. But you can come up with imagined scenarios all you like, that just doesn't change my impression and the impact it has on my gameplay.

With Shield Gate, it's mostly just about being invulnerable in one way or another now.

You're arguing against one invulnerability mechanic by suggesting we use another, Shield gating vs operator. 

Increasing your ehp means absolutely nothing when your shields are down and you get one shot.

Having a duration based ability active is not an imagined scenario and I'm not the one basing my argument on "what ifs"

On 2021-05-21 at 2:52 PM, Kontrollo said:

I think I already addressed the first point: "Luckily, right now nothing really requires them. But just wait until something does, and then it'll suddenly be turned a requirement for (almost) everyone. Like Railjack did to Archwing choice."

 

Here is a list of abilities that put you what you like to call an "imaginary scenario" that makes your frame vulnerable to damage. There are a total of 5 frames out of 47 that that will take no damage while in operator having an ability active.

Ash - Smoke screen

Atlas - Tumblers

Banshee - Silence

Baruuk - Serene Stork/Elude

Chroma - Elemental Ward/Vex Armor/Effigy 

Ember - Immolation

Equinox - Pacify & Provoke/Mend & Main

Excal - none

Excal Umbra - all the time, no abilities needed

Frost - 

Gara - Spectrorage

Garuda -

Gauss -Kenetic Platin/Redline

Grendel - Idk only trash frame I don't have so can't test

Harrow - Covenant (after invuln preiod)

Hildryn - Unique case because active abilities are canceled as soon as shields are depleted but takes shield damage if Haven/Aegis Storm are active

Hydroid - Tentacle swarm

Inaros - Devour

Ivara - Noise Arrow/Sleep Arrow/Artemis Bow

Khora - 

Lavos - Transmutation Probe/Catalyze

Limbo -Stasis/Rift Surge/Cataclysm

Loki - Decoy/Invisibility 

Mag - Polarize

Mesa - Ballistic Battery/Shooting Gallery/Shatter Shield

Mirage - Hall of Mirrors/Eclipse

Nekros - Terrify/Desecrate

Nezha - Fire Walker/Warding Halo

Nidus - Larva/Parasitic Link/Ravenous

Nova - Null Star/ Molecular Prime

Nyx - Mind control/Psychic Bolts

Oberon - Renewal

Octavia - Amp

Protea - Temporal Anchor

Revenant - Mesmer Skin

Rhino - Iron Skin/Roar

Saryn - Spores/Toxic Lash/Molt

Sevagoty - Reap/Sow/Gloom

Titania - Razorwing

Trinity - Well of Life/Energy Vampire/Link/Blessing

Valkyr - Warcry

Vauban - 

Volt - Discharge

Wisp - Wil-o-Wisp/Breach Surge

WuKong - Celestial Twin

Xaku - Xata's Whisper/Grasp of Lohk/Vast Untime

Zephyr - Turbulence/Tornado

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On 2021-05-11 at 10:47 PM, sunderthefirmament said:

have the Decaying Dragon Key also disable shield gating while worn.

Yes and please! Also, make the shield gating duration proportional to your max shields. I use neither Rolling Guard nor Decaying on my Mag build, no Brief Respite either, but since I also don't run any +Shield mods, I can completely recharge my shield by hitting two enemies with Harrow's Condemn (using it since it's cheaper than her 4).

Being rewarded for running as little shields as possible feels hella backwards, as increased shield capacity on Primes becomes a negative, not to mention that suddenly Valkyr is theoretically the best shield tank in the game!

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45 minutes ago, scam said:

Just because there are other methods to survive doesn't mean this isn't an issue. Kuva Nukor is super overpowered and has needed nerfs since it was released. This doesn't mean no other secondary weapon is overpowered, one issue/exploit existing doesn't mean the rest of them suddenly don't matter. That's a horrible way to look at game design/balance.

I'll just copy/paste this from a previous reply. 1.3 seconds is nothing.

Using a decaying dragon key makes it easier to refresh a 1.3 second invulnerability period. Shield gate from not full shields is .33 seconds, the average human reaction time is something like .25 seconds. Without a dragon key and ping over 80ms, the average human could not react fast enough to take advantage of shield gating. You also have to actually cast an ability in that time. Most abilities take about a second to cast and you don't regen shields from Brief Respite/Augur Set mods until the ability is finished casting. 

One second ability cast time + .25 second reaction time + 80 ms ping = 1.3 seconds. So, if you have average response time and decent ping you might be able to reset your shield gate without using rolling guard. Rolling Guard procs as soon as you roll so your 3 second invulnerability period starts then but, rolling takes nearly a second to finish before you can cast an ability, then there is the cast time, reaction time and ping. You are also casting during rolling guard so your 1.3 second shield gate invulnerability period is overlapping with Rolling Guard invulnerability period. Perfectly timed rolling guard + shield gate grants 3.33-4.3 seconds of invulnerability but all things considered the time is actually much shorter. Then you have to wait 7 seconds before you can proc Rolling Guard again. 

You can run things like Amalgam Barrel Diffusion and Natural Talent to shave ms off that time but even with Rolling Guard and a dragon key shield gating is far from the invincibility that people like to claim it is. With as many methods we have to cheese this game I just think it's funny that resetting 1.3 second invulnerability period is such a big deal when it doesn't effect anyone else's gaming experience. If you don't like shield gating, don't use it. You can build for health, armor, damage reduction and healing. 

 

Your shield gating rework Idea might work but you have to leave combat to make use of the mechanic. It would suck to leave combat to regen shields so you could go back in and get hit one time again and repeat the process. It's disengaging gameplay, would be highly ineffective and be a boring playstyle. not a fan.

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18 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I'll just copy/paste this from a previous reply. 1.3 seconds is nothing.

Using a decaying dragon key makes it easier to refresh a 1.3 second invulnerability period. Shield gate from not full shields is .33 seconds, the average human reaction time is something like .25 seconds. Without a dragon key and ping over 80ms, the average human could not react fast enough to take advantage of shield gating. You also have to actually cast an ability in that time. Most abilities take about a second to cast and you don't regen shields from Brief Respite/Augur Set mods until the ability is finished casting. 

One second ability cast time + .25 second reaction time + 80 ms ping = 1.3 seconds. So, if you have average response time and decent ping you might be able to reset your shield gate without using rolling guard. Rolling Guard procs as soon as you roll so your 3 second invulnerability period starts then but, rolling takes nearly a second to finish before you can cast an ability, then there is the cast time, reaction time and ping. You are also casting during rolling guard so your 1.3 second shield gate invulnerability period is overlapping with Rolling Guard invulnerability period. Perfectly timed rolling guard + shield gate grants 3.33-4.3 seconds of invulnerability but all things considered the time is actually much shorter. Then you have to wait 7 seconds before you can proc Rolling Guard again. 

You can run things like Amalgam Barrel Diffusion and Natural Talent to shave ms off that time but even with Rolling Guard and a dragon key shield gating is far from the invincibility that people like to claim it is. With as many methods we have to cheese this game I just think it's funny that resetting 1.3 second invulnerability period is such a big deal when it doesn't effect anyone else's gaming experience. If you don't like shield gating, don't use it. You can build for health, armor, damage reduction and healing. 

 

Your shield gating rework Idea might work but you have to leave combat to make use of the mechanic. It would suck to leave combat to regen shields so you could go back in and get hit one time again and repeat the process. It's disengaging gameplay, would be highly ineffective and be a boring playstyle. not a fan.

You misinterpreted my points I feel.

Shield-gates should not always have to be at least 1.3s, tanks like Nidus and Inaros get no gating, so it makes no sense to use the duration of gating on other health tanks that have minute shields as an argument for how the duration should always be 1.3s. Frames that need the gating period can achieve this without a doubt by building for shields, but the likes of Grendel, Valkyr, and other health tanks, should not be receiving this same benefit. They're not meant to be shield tanks.

Shield-gate should not be spam refreshable, as I mentioned above it leads to too many cases of being able to make yourself invincible. Especially now since you can slap Pillage on anything with Helminth, you can absolutely abuse this on literally any frame without issue. Moving it from just having any amount of shields replenished, to only recharging once you've been out of combat and achieved natural shield regen, means shield replenishing abilities and the like no longer abuse shield-gating mechanics, but if building for shield reduction still afford you a significant amount of eHP. You can still tank with shields without gating, by modding for the shield damage reduction, getting it up to ~70-80%, but you would not be abusing shield-gate to make your shields effective. Shields should not be infinitely refreshable with no effort, it breaks the balance of it.

You would have to leave combat to replenish them, yes, but shields would not be as frail as they currently are, and could be modded for heavy reduction, meaning it's no longer just one-tap to clear your shields all of the time. If they are able to achieve a fair amount of damage reduction then the "well shields just get one-shot anyway" issue no longer applies when specifically modded for. Being able to mod for the reduction, or mod for shield capacity, would be two different results that can of course synergize and benefit eachother. If you have the desire to just have a decent shield-gate duration, for brief bursts of invulnerability, then you would mod solely for shield capacity. If you wish to be able to face-tank with shields, then you could mod for the damage reduction and use shield regenerating methods, or once modded for reduction add more shield capacity as well. This gives two unique types of effective builds for shields that would be relevant but for different situations.

You can not leave shield-gating refreshable by any shield regeneration effects (literally just having any amount of shields) as it leads to the mechanic being easily abusable and presenting a massive balance divide. Shields currently have no reason to build for them as their reduction is so miniscule, if we could buff it to compete with armour then shields would actually be built for, so long as building for them doesn't inherently punish you with gating, like it currently does as it's a set amount. It needs to be a function of max shields, so you're rewarded for building them, not punished.

Being out of combat does not mean literally being out of combat, it means simply taking no damage. So having frames with methods to CC enemies and such would be greatly beneficial as it affords you a momentary breathing period to replenish your shields along with the gate while still continuing your relentless onslaught of the Grineer hordes or whatever.

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13 minutes ago, scam said:

You misinterpreted my points I feel.

Shield-gates should not always have to be at least 1.3s, tanks like Nidus and Inaros get no gating, so it makes no sense to use the duration of gating on other health tanks that have minute shields as an argument for how the duration should always be 1.3s. Frames that need the gating period can achieve this without a doubt by building for shields, but the likes of Grendel, Valkyr, and other health tanks, should not be receiving this same benefit. They're not meant to be shield tanks.

Shield-gate should not be spam refreshable, as I mentioned above it leads to too many cases of being able to make yourself invincible. Especially now since you can slap Pillage on anything with Helminth, you can absolutely abuse this on literally any frame without issue. Moving it from just having any amount of shields replenished, to only recharging once you've been out of combat and achieved natural shield regen, means shield replenishing abilities and the like no longer abuse shield-gating mechanics, but if building for shield reduction still afford you a significant amount of eHP. You can still tank with shields without gating, by modding for the shield damage reduction, getting it up to ~70-80%, but you would not be abusing shield-gate to make your shields effective. Shields should not be infinitely refreshable with no effort, it breaks the balance of it.

You would have to leave combat to replenish them, yes, but shields would not be as frail as they currently are, and could be modded for heavy reduction, meaning it's no longer just one-tap to clear your shields all of the time. If they are able to achieve a fair amount of damage reduction then the "well shields just get one-shot anyway" issue no longer applies when specifically modded for. Being able to mod for the reduction, or mod for shield capacity, would be two different results that can of course synergize and benefit eachother. If you have the desire to just have a decent shield-gate duration, for brief bursts of invulnerability, then you would mod solely for shield capacity. If you wish to be able to face-tank with shields, then you could mod for the damage reduction and use shield regenerating methods, or once modded for reduction add more shield capacity as well. This gives two unique types of effective builds for shields that would be relevant but for different situations.

You can not leave shield-gating refreshable by any shield regeneration effects (literally just having any amount of shields) as it leads to the mechanic being easily abusable and presenting a massive balance divide. Shields currently have no reason to build for them as their reduction is so miniscule, if we could buff it to compete with armour then shields would actually be built for, so long as building for them doesn't inherently punish you with gating, like it currently does as it's a set amount. It needs to be a function of max shields, so you're rewarded for building them, not punished.

Being out of combat does not mean literally being out of combat, it means simply taking no damage. So having frames with methods to CC enemies and such would be greatly beneficial as it affords you a momentary breathing period to replenish your shields along with the gate while still continuing your relentless onslaught of the Grineer hordes or whatever.

Until DE implements your suggestions there is no point using made up shield gating mechanics as an argument against what we currently have. Chances are if DE actually does anything to shield gating they will just remove the interaction with the key and call it a day. This will kill shield gating and make it an unreliable means of defense. We're back to square one trying to build squishy caster frames as tanks to maintain.

With our current shield gating mechanics a key is nearly mandatory because 1.3 seconds is often not enough time to reset your shields and .33 seconds is impossible (ping + human reaction time + casting speed > 1.3 seconds). No matter how many times I point out that fact the information is glossed over. I can't do it anymore. Everyone has made up their mind that shield gating = immortality. I'm done with this thread. 

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On 2021-05-24 at 1:42 AM, Berzerkules said:

You're arguing against one invulnerability mechanic by suggesting we use another, Shield gating vs operator. 

Increasing your ehp means absolutely nothing when your shields are down and you get one shot.

Having a duration based ability active is not an imagined scenario and I'm not the one basing my argument on "what ifs"

*snip*

No I don't.

I'm saying that I'm running Steel Path Incursions on a squishy Warframe just with the tools at hand and one defensive mod: Rolling Guard. Even tried one again just now with Hydroid in this configuration, and made it out, although it didn't go all that well.

Besides, I'm well aware of the mechanics on the frames that I do use, and I'm not jumping into a horde of enemies after activating an ability that leaves my Warframe vulnerable. You also listed some that can be deactivated or give you other perks so they're not an issue, e.g. stealth. Even with that, it's 10x your remaining EHP and they tend to shoot the Sentinel first.

One thing I forgot to mention, though: I also have Guardian when I'm using a Sentinel.

 

But yeah. I happened to see your other thread in the overview when you replied to it. I guess you just want to keep your current Steel Path farming strategy, that's what all this is about:

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Spoiler

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I don't really see how this is a huge problem, it's a pretty niche playstyle / combo that doesn't really see much use in the community.

There's tons of combos that makes frames nearly immortal, and although this one is probably cheaper to set up than some more expensive combos requiring arcanes and multiple mods, and the shield gating combo requires constant rolls to refresh and tight shield gating timings to work, which is a playstyle most people don't really want to use...

Add to the fact 95% of the game's content is easy anyway and doesn't require such tactics and it does seem like it's such a big deal. I mean it's your call if you want to forgo other survivability mods and rely on perfectly timed rolls and shield gating to survive, personally I would rather have other mods and combos that don't force me to roll all the time to survive.

As for long endurance runs, tbh it's good that there are combos that can work there... Since part of the community wants to do this. No need to nerf the few builds that can handle such content.

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5 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

But yeah. I happened to see your other thread in the overview when you replied to it. I guess you just want to keep your current Steel Path farming strategy, that's what all this is about:

I'm not farming anything. I have nothing to farm. I'm sitting on 5k+ SE from just running stupid endurance builds. There is nothing worth buying from Teshin, Umbra forma is nice, I guess, but I don't build for health/armor/healing so it's kind of pointless, I have 8 umbra forma just sitting there. I could get kuva to roll rivens to sell but, I already have 3mil kuva and more than enough plat and nothing to spend it on. I play SP because regular star chart is boring af. 

I just enjoy stupid long endurance runs using dumb helminth builds, it's about all I do anymore because there is nothing else for me to do. Shield gating builds are more enjoyable for me to play because if I don't pay attention I'm dead. With basic tank healing builds you don't have to think and you still maintain for a couple hours in SP then you just get one shot and it's time to go. I find shield gating builds a more engaging playstyle where my loadout and how I play matters more. I'm not limited by the stupid high scaling damage enemies put out, no frame can tank at a certain point. 

Shield gating and Helminth has made so many frames SP endurance viable. Frames I had previously ignored because they were too squishy or their kit lacked something are now some of my favorite frames to play. All of this has nothing to do with farming, because there is nothing left for me to farm. We have no endgame so we create our own, I'm left with all the frames and weapons and nothing to do with them so, I push them as far as I possible can.

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On 2021-05-24 at 12:02 PM, Berzerkules said:

Until DE implements your suggestions there is no point using made up shield gating mechanics as an argument against what we currently have. Chances are if DE actually does anything to shield gating they will just remove the interaction with the key and call it a day. This will kill shield gating and make it an unreliable means of defense. We're back to square one trying to build squishy caster frames as tanks to maintain.

With our current shield gating mechanics a key is nearly mandatory because 1.3 seconds is often not enough time to reset your shields and .33 seconds is impossible (ping + human reaction time + casting speed > 1.3 seconds). No matter how many times I point out that fact the information is glossed over. I can't do it anymore. Everyone has made up their mind that shield gating = immortality. I'm done with this thread. 

Well, shields should need to recharge fully, how I suggested earlier, to replenish the gate period. Having partially replenished shields shouldn't grant you a partial gate, the 0.33 seconds should be 0.00 because even having 1 shield regenerate can grant you that which is just silly. Arcane Aegis when triggered grants constant shield regeneration, even if you only gain 1 shields in that time the regenerative interval is less than 0.33 seconds, when Aegis procs you effectively immortal for the duration. Shield gating is immortality if played correctly, as I explained. There are many ways to go about it, I also explained that.

Saying my suggestion is bad because DE won't implement it is not an argument against the fix itself, that's an argument against DE side-stepping issues and being lazy with band-aid fixes. Whether you agree to see it or not, shield-gating has massive issues, the Dragon Key simply presents these issues more clearly, but is only a symptom of the issues. Changing the Dragon Key is the same as implementing Hunter Munitions, Internal Bleeding, and other band-aid mods like them to ignore the armour scaling issue. It doesn't remove the issue just gives a way to partially mask it in some cases.

16 hours ago, (PSN)Stealth_Cobra said:

I don't really see how this is a huge problem, it's a pretty niche playstyle / combo that doesn't really see much use in the community.

There's tons of combos that makes frames nearly immortal, and although this one is probably cheaper to set up than some more expensive combos requiring arcanes and multiple mods, and the shield gating combo requires constant rolls to refresh and tight shield gating timings to work, which is a playstyle most people don't really want to use...

Add to the fact 95% of the game's content is easy anyway and doesn't require such tactics and it does seem like it's such a big deal. I mean it's your call if you want to forgo other survivability mods and rely on perfectly timed rolls and shield gating to survive, personally I would rather have other mods and combos that don't force me to roll all the time to survive.

As for long endurance runs, tbh it's good that there are combos that can work there... Since part of the community wants to do this. No need to nerf the few builds that can handle such content.

The fact armour and health become entirely irrelevant once past a certain point, and shields/true invulnerability become the only viable options, is a pretty glaring issue. Armour and health should not fall off when shields become more relevant, every method of survivability should be balanced when effectively built into. Armour should remain relevant. The issue with shield-gating is how easily abusable it is, it has dozens of methods to achieve total invulnerability when you build correctly.

The game being easy is not an argument against this, the issue is building for shields directly punishes you because it's inversely effective for shield gating. It has nothing to do with gating being the only method to stay alive, it's simply that building for more shields is actively punishing you, which is counterintuitive and horribly flawed design. Building for more eHP (shields) makes you less tanky, think about that for a second. 

11 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I'm not farming anything. I have nothing to farm. I'm sitting on 5k+ SE from just running stupid endurance builds. There is nothing worth buying from Teshin, Umbra forma is nice, I guess, but I don't build for health/armor/healing so it's kind of pointless, I have 8 umbra forma just sitting there. I could get kuva to roll rivens to sell but, I already have 3mil kuva and more than enough plat and nothing to spend it on. I play SP because regular star chart is boring af. 

I just enjoy stupid long endurance runs using dumb helminth builds, it's about all I do anymore because there is nothing else for me to do. Shield gating builds are more enjoyable for me to play because if I don't pay attention I'm dead. With basic tank healing builds you don't have to think and you still maintain for a couple hours in SP then you just get one shot and it's time to go. I find shield gating builds a more engaging playstyle where my loadout and how I play matters more. I'm not limited by the stupid high scaling damage enemies put out, no frame can tank at a certain point. 

Shield gating and Helminth has made so many frames SP endurance viable. Frames I had previously ignored because they were too squishy or their kit lacked something are now some of my favorite frames to play. All of this has nothing to do with farming, because there is nothing left for me to farm. We have no endgame so we create our own, I'm left with all the frames and weapons and nothing to do with them so, I push them as far as I possible can.

You should not have to rely on shield-gating abuse to make frames relevant. Lots of frames have issues that are present in their current kits and need at least minor tune-ups and changes to make them properly effective and scale well without having to build for this. You just said it yourself, plenty of frames weren't viable before but suddenly are if you abuse gating, yet you also say it's not an issue. I am done replying to your further, you're deluding yourself with these thoughts and clearly fractured thinking.

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On 2021-05-26 at 11:30 AM, scam said:

...

The game being easy is not an argument against this, the issue is building for shields directly punishes you because it's inversely effective for shield gating. It has nothing to do with gating being the only method to stay alive, it's simply that building for more shields is actively punishing you, which is counterintuitive and horribly flawed design. Building for more eHP (shields) makes you less tanky, think about that for a second.

...

I simply dislike the mechanic itself, so I haven't bothered to engage with other suggestions. (So excuse me for only quoting this part.)

But yeah, there are certainly also ways to make it fit better. I don't have any hopes of it going away again, in any case.

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2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

I simply dislike the mechanic itself, so I haven't bothered to engage with other suggestions. (So excuse me for only quoting this part.)

But yeah, there are certainly also ways to make it fit better. I don't have any hopes of it going away again, in any case.

I think the mechanic is great, just the implementation fell flat.
I've posted my suggested changes for it elsewhere here, so I won't get back into it, but yeah, would love to see some changes.
Shield-gating for me is a mechanic for squishy frames that don't need up-front tankiness, but rather a way to have short bursts of survivability. 

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10 hours ago, scam said:

I think the mechanic is great, just the implementation fell flat.
I've posted my suggested changes for it elsewhere here, so I won't get back into it, but yeah, would love to see some changes.
Shield-gating for me is a mechanic for squishy frames that don't need up-front tankiness, but rather a way to have short bursts of survivability. 

I don't even use the shield gate combo for my squishy frames. I've just subsumed Gloom on them. CC that significantly improves damage frequency, and thus reduction, and healing which many of the squishy frames simply don't have remedies their squishiness pretty well. Not to mention it is incredibly powerful against disruption targets.

IMO, for whatever opinions are worth, I don't think we even need Shield Gating anymore. Shield Gating was originally, and mostly, implemented because people were getting irritated that the Corrupted Corpus enemies would throw a grenade which no one could see, and it would one shot people. Now that we can see where the grenade is landing, I don't even think we really need shield gating anymore. See the grenade, run away from it, as you bloodly well should.

Arguments for Shield Gating that players NEED it in order to do Steel Path Survival mission for 5 hours straight are meaningless to me. One's desire to essentially prove the broken nature of the game's power creep is, if anything, viable arguments for the removal of these broken systems. Whining that one can no longer dodge roll one's way through level 9999 SP enemies would honestly be music to my ears.

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10 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

IMO, for whatever opinions are worth, I don't think we even need Shield Gating anymore. Shield Gating was originally, and mostly, implemented because people were getting irritated that the Corrupted Corpus enemies would throw a grenade which no one could see, and it would one shot people. Now that we can see where the grenade is landing, I don't even thing we really need shield gating anymore. See the grenade, run away from it, as you bloodly well should.

You never experienced the situations where, all is good, then suddenly you're dead before you realized what happened, and it wasn't because of a grenade?

From what I can recall about my experience, it happened a lot more than a grenade.

Corrupted Corpus enemies is also weirdly specific 🤨 Where did you get the impression that that was the main reason that it was implemented? A link to get us on the same page would be appreciated

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4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

You never experienced the situations where, all is good, then suddenly you're instantly dead before you realized what happened, and it wasn't because of a grenade?

From what I can recall about my experience, it happened a lot more than a grenade.

Can't say I have. Maybe from the lasers on Void Defense where some idiot activates them? But that's not the game mechanics at fault, it's human error.

But, for everything else, I've managed with Gloom, armor, my choice of Specters supporting me just fine. Even in SP.

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Just now, xZeromusx said:

Can't say I have. Maybe from the lasers on Void Defense where some idiot activates them? But that's not the game mechanics at fault, it's human error.

But, for everything else, I've managed with Gloom, armor, my choice of Specters supporting me just fine. Even in SP.

...Huh. Why do you reckon you never experienced that?

Happened all the time for me. A shot from a Nullifier that struck true, an unfortunate coordinated burst from a group of enemies, a Bolkor or those turrets on the PoE that would nail me from miles away while I'm busy doing something else

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9 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

...Huh. Why do you reckon you never experienced that?

Happened all the time for me. A shot from a Nullifier that struck true, an unfortunate coordinated burst from a group of enemies, a Bolkor or those turrets on the PoE that would nail me from miles away while I'm busy doing something else

IDK. I've been caught without shields on by those things plenty of times before, and not had an issue. Maybe I build with a focus on survival and defense enough to mitigate their damage. 50%+ damage reduction from armor alone usually does just fine, significantly more on frames that have more than 125 base armor. Add in that I've placed Gloom on all those "squishy" frames, which slows enemies around me by 70%+ with even my most basic build, and gives me healing enough to roll through everything they can dish out. I'm also not in the habit of taking on enemies whose power level is over 9000, because I don't see that as being the important benchmark for the game.

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Just now, xZeromusx said:

IDK. I've been caught without shields on by those things plenty of times before, and not had an issue. Maybe I build with a focus on survival and defense enough to mitigate their damage. 50%+ damage reduction from armor alone usually does just fine, significantly more on frames that have more than 125 base armor. Add in that I've placed Gloom on all those "squishy" frames, which slows enemies around me by 70+ with even my most basic build, and gives me healing enough to roll through everything they can dish out. I'm also not in the habit of taking on enemies whose power level is over 9000, because I don't see that as being the important benchmark for the game.

Hmm. 🤔 Even in the early days? I was able to fight and kill enemies at different levels, but even with my best-leveled Redirection, Steel Fiber, and Vitality (each around rank 7, since it's so expensive to upgrade mods) at the time, I wouldn't be able to not get nearly-instantly killed in aforementioned situations sometimes.

Not sure why Sevagoth keeps working his way into the equation; didn't Shield Gating come a lot earlier than his release?

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5 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Hmm. 🤔 Even in the early days? I was able to fight and kill enemies at different levels, but even with my best-leveled Redirection, Steel Fiber, and Vitality (each around rank 7, since it's so expensive to upgrade mods) at the time, I wouldn't be able to not get nearly-instantly killed in aforementioned situations sometimes.

Not sure why Sevagoth keeps working his way into the equation; didn't Shield Gating come a lot earlier than his release?

Sevagoth isn't in the equation. Gloom is simply because it's able to be helminthed onto any frame. But even without Gloom, I've not really faced any issues with one shots even from steel path enemies even when caught without shields and even on my squishiest frames. But, I do tend to run Umbral mods, all at max rank, which do significantly improve my defense, more than max Redirection, Steel Fiber, and Vitality combined.

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4 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

Sevagoth isn't in the equation. Gloom is simply because it's able to be helminthed onto any frame. But even without Gloom, I've not really faced any issues with one shots even from steel path enemies even when caught without shields and even on my squishiest frames. But, I do tend to run Umbral mods, all at max rank, which do significantly improve my defense, more than max Redirection, Steel Fiber, and Vitality combined.

Okay. And you reckon the rest of us don't need shield gating anymore?

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12 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Okay. And you reckon the rest of us don't need shield gating anymore?

Well, the issue that made it vitally necessary in the first place (grenades that couldn't be tracked) is solved. So, yeah. The issues you mentioned are able to be solved with mods that you'll get for free from a story quest. And even a normal Vitality and Steel Fiber (which ARE NOT hard to max) will do ya fine. And if you're facing steel path enemies, I would expect you to be coming at them already with strong mods. If anything, Umbral mods are easier to get than Rolling Guard, as you get them from a quest you should be doing regardless, where as Rolling Guard has to be bought from the Arbitrations Vendor. The former is essentially free, and come already equivalent to a maxed out Vitality and Steel Fiber when taking into account their mod bonus when you acquire them.

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15 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

Well, the issue that made it vitally necessary in the first place (grenades that couldn't be tracked) is solved. So, yeah. The issues you mentioned are able to be solved with mods that you'll get for free from a story quest. And even a normal Vitality and Steel Fiber (which ARE NOT hard to max) will do ya fine. And if you're facing steel path enemies, I would expect you to be coming at them already with strong mods. If anything, Umbral mods are easier to get than Rolling Guard, as you get them from a quest you should be doing regardless, where as Rolling Guard has to be bought from the Arbitrations Vendor. The former is essentially free, and come already equivalent to a maxed out Vitality and Steel Fiber when taking into account their mod bonus when you acquire them.

Just to clarify, I'm not arguing for the rolling guard/shield gating thing. If it was somehow removed, I wouldn't shed a tear.

I am curious as to where you got the idea that grenades were the reason for shield gating (a link or post from the devs or something would be appreciated).

What makes getting maxed mods not hard?

edit: Wait, this is a hell of a digression from the main topic. I think I'm going to duck out of this conversation. Sorry for the de-railment, OP 👍

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5 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Just to clarify, I'm not arguing for the rolling guard/shield gating thing. If it was somehow removed, I wouldn't shed a tear.

I am curious as to where you got the idea that grenades were the reason for shield gating (a link or post from the devs or something would be appreciated).

What makes getting maxed mods not hard?

I just remember that being the big complaint about shields being useless before the shield rework, and that the devs were talking about that issue in I believe it was Devstream 139. The corrupted corpus enemies would throw grenades, specifically in the high level void missions, that would often one shot squishy frames, and the grenades were not able to be tracked like they are now. But, now they can be tracked AND shield gated through, which makes tracking the grenades redundant and easy to simply face roll. A one shot threat, like the grenades, aren't a problem when player skill can allow a player to avoid it.

Also, what makes maxing mods hard? It's literally just credits and Endo which are pretty easy to acquire.

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1 minute ago, xZeromusx said:

I just remember that being the big complaint about shields being useless before the shield rework, and that the devs were talking about that issue in I believe it was Devstream 139. The corrupted corpus enemies would throw grenades, specifically in the high level void missions, that would often one shot squishy frames, and the grenades were not able to be tracked like they are now. But, now they can be tracked AND shield gated through, which makes tracking the grenades redundant and easy to simply face roll. A one shot threat, like the grenades, aren't a problem when player skill can allow a player to avoid it.

Also, what makes maxing mods hard? It's literally just credits and Endo which are pretty easy to acquire.

Sorry man, I ducked out because I felt like we were getting a little too far off-track from the original topic 👍. Been a good (if a little weird) chat though

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On 2021-05-04 at 2:01 PM, SenorClipClop said:

Decaying Dragon Key should be a handicap, not a keystone to making us invincible.

  • I understand and support using it to reduce Shields on a frame for certain purposes, such as building Chroma's damage faster or leaning on Rage/Adrenaline.

 

Agreed, good point

On 2021-05-04 at 2:16 PM, Kontrollo said:

Shield Gate was a mistake.

How else are you going to survive as a massively squishy warframe against a bunch of heavy gunners at long range, or in an open space?

 

Hide behind rock?

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