Whats the next umbral frame ? am very excited

[Hypernaut1]

13 hours ago, OniDax said:

When they went to China, they were acting like they were on vacation on social media. When Excalibur Umbra leaked out, it took them way too long to acknowledge it. Only after there was controversy within the community did they address it. When they finally put out a post talking about it and announcing that they'd release it for the global build, it took them three years before they decided on a way to add it to the game, signifying that they had no plan for releasing it for the global build (because, yes, if they originally intended to release it, then they would've had a plan for doing so). This indicates that they didn't originally plan on releasing it for the global build, and that the decision to do so was a reaction to the controversy regarding Excalibur Umbra.

Based on that reasoning, I believe their Changyou partnership and Excalibur Umbra were intended to be kept secret (because they probably knew people wouldn't like the idea of a Prime version of Excalibur that was region-exclusive), I believe DE did not intend on releasing it for their international player base, and I believe the decision to release it for their international player base was a reaction to the controversy surrounding Excalibur Umbra and not a pre-planned decision. I believe it was their intention to keep it secret because they freely revealed their WIP content in devstreams. They did not handle Changyou content that way. Again, when they finally acknowledged their partnership and said they'd release Excal Umbra for the global build, they dragged their feet on it for 3 years. That's not something they would've done had they planned on revealing it and releasing it for international players.

And just to remind you what that controversy was, there was controversy because DE refused to release Excalibur Prime for non-Founder players, citing the marketed exclusivity of the Founders Program, yet they were effectively skirting around that marketed exclusivity by creating what amounted to a new Excalibur Prime for their Chinese players. Players considered this as pandering to the Chinese player base and a slap in the face to international players as well as console players who were not allowed to have a Prime version of Excalibur.

That is why I think it's close to zero chance DE releases another umbra frame. They weren't excited about bringing Excalibur Umbra to the global build because they sat on it for 3 years, and they clearly aren't excited about bringing more umbra frames to the game because they've sat on that for 3 years despite saying they'd make a limited line of them. Despite what I'm sure some will argue, being "busy" isn't an acceptable explanation for why they haven't released more umbra frames, just as it wasn't acceptable for why they took 3 years to release Excalibur Umbra, because DE sets its own schedule; they have full control of what they choose to release. If they don't release something, it's because they choose not to prioritize it, not because someone else kept them from releasing that content. So I don't think they're really interested in releasing more umbra frames, because after 3 years, they haven't done it.

Wow. That's A WHOLE lot of baseless speculation. It's hilarious. 

Somehow you got ALL of that from browsing the forum...

[OniDax]

On 2021-05-05 at 1:57 AM, GraveSpectre said:

No, his name wasn't Umbra. Ballas erased his name from the Orokin records. All part of the torture and brainwashing as was making him kill his own son.

As for what Umbra we would get next is likely Nyx or Rhino.
Rhino as DE often refer to him as Excalibur's partner/buddy
Nyx as she was the OG Nemesis to Excalibur in Dark Sector, so the two have something of a connection even in Warframe.
And while their Umbra stories in Warframe may not be connected, there is still that kind of spiritual attachment.

All that said, Umbra was basically "Excal prime for non-founders" a compromise to try and placate those that missed out on buying the founder pack.
But once you open pandora's box......

His name was Umbra, unless Lucas Hug was mistaken or unless Umbra is just what Ballas calls him post-transformation. Either way, Umbra refers specifically to the Dax in the Sacrifice quest.

"Umbra and his son."

[sixmille]

I could be wrong, but I don't think there will be more unless they desperately need to appease the community in some way. Yes they said there would be more, but let me tell you something, I've been around, on and off for 7 years and while DE promises a lot of things, they rarely deliver. Even some of the stuff they showcase at tennocon gets shelved for whatever reason, such as the Stalker mode. I'm sure they're cool people so I won't call them liars (lying requires an intent) but they can't keep their mouths shut and will always promise more than they can deliver.

[OniDax]

27 minutes ago, sixmille said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think there will be more unless they desperately need to appease the community in some way. Yes they said there would be more, but let me tell you something, I've been around, on and off for 7 years and while DE promises a lot of things, they rarely deliver. Even some of the stuff they showcase at tennocon gets shelved for whatever reason, such as the Stalker mode. I'm sure they're cool people so I won't call them liars (lying requires an intent) but they can't keep their mouths shut and will always promise more than they can deliver.

True, even though certain people here will never accept that. I'll use the Duviri Paradox as an example. Artists created a lot of content for Duviri, but it was just created for the trailer. Look at the Dax Duviri artwork on Artstation: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/w8KzP6. The description reads: "Created for the Duviri paradox cinematic, from concept to the engine". That content wasn't created for the game. It was created for the cinematic. Now, I don't know if DE got far enough along to plan for this content making its way to the game, but that's what DE does. They create concepts to show off at Tennocon, and then figure out how to actually make it work later. That's why Railjack didn't end up being like the demonstration at Tennocon. They do what Anthem did at E3 2017: they build a demo for Tennocon and then they try to put it in the game later. That's why they overpromise and underdeliver all the time. That's why they procrastinated on adding Excalibur Umbra to the game for 3 years. That why they still haven't created more umbra-style warframes after 3 years.

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Wow. That's A WHOLE lot of baseless speculation. It's hilarious. 

Somehow you got ALL of that from browsing the forum...

It's deductive reasoning. When Steve and Reb went to China, they did a whole press run there. Took pictures and everything. All of that leaked out; DE didn't publicize any of it internationally. They had already started marketing Excalibur Umbra Prime in China. How did they keep it secret? Chinese media is typically closed off from Western media. It doesn't automatically pop on Google. It was only because a Chinese player played the global build that we found out about it. If DE hadn't intended on keeping it secret, they would've made their forum announcement alongside pictures and the start of their marketing for Umbra Prime. They didn't do that. They only made a forum post after significant controversy surrounding the existence of Excalibur Umbra Prime. You were around then, but perhaps you just don't remember. It's not just baseless speculation. It's deduction based on some facts, namely the facts surrounding their lack of communication regarding the Changyou deal and facts about how and when they responded to the controversy and facts about how they typically communicated regarding things they wanted the community to know about.

 

[Shadowbladedeathkiller]

I think Loki or Mag should get one next.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

On 2021-05-05 at 1:18 AM, Dr.Enthu said:

After excalibur umbra what would be the next umbral frame ( maybe the frame for which a prime version doesnt exist like nidus).

De said there eill be primes of each frame eventually. do even nidus dedpite the lore will get a prime.

De hasn't really said if we will ever get more umbras. I think it vpuld be cool. But at thid point its speculation.

[Danielw8]

Volt and mag lets gooo

[vegetosayajin]

Please let umbra be unique (even if not useful). 
If they make another it will loose it's charm.

[Brinstar7777]

On 2021-05-05 at 1:18 AM, Dr.Enthu said:

After excalibur umbra what would be the next umbral frame ( maybe the frame for which a prime version doesnt exist like nidus).

I'm guessing the next two umbral frames will be Mag Umbra and Volt Umbra.

[TARINunit9]

On 2021-05-10 at 12:34 PM, OniDax said:

His name was Umbra, unless Lucas Hug was mistaken or unless Umbra is just what Ballas calls him post-transformation. Either way, Umbra refers specifically to the Dax in the Sacrifice quest.

"Umbra and his son."

Is Lucas Hug also a writer? Because I don't consider shorthand on concept art to override other canon. Especially when the original, scrapped script for War Within referred to "Umbras" in a plural sense. Specifically a plural that was clearly talking about multiple Warframes, not multiple Dax

[General-Pacman]

I really hope they don't add any more umbra frames; it would be a very mediocre way of recycling content. I think we have enough with primes, I dont really want to build yet another variant of every single frame.

[OniDax]

19 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Is Lucas Hug also a writer? Because I don't consider shorthand on concept art to override other canon. Especially when the original, scrapped script for War Within referred to "Umbras" in a plural sense. Specifically a plural that was clearly talking about multiple Warframes, not multiple Dax

I mean, Ballas also calls him Umbra. And for Lucas to label it "Umbra and his Son" suggests that label is based on lore that he was given.

[TARINunit9]

23 minutes ago, OniDax said:

And for Lucas to label it "Umbra and his Son" suggests that label is based on lore that he was given.

The concept artists for Mortal Kombat originally named Shang Tsung "Mustard" and Sektor "Ketchup", you want to call those canon names? But let's get to the Warframe part:

23 minutes ago, OniDax said:

I mean, Ballas also calls him Umbra. 

Time to crack out the transcript for the millionth time:

Ballas: Lua brings you strength, Umbra, but you cannot defy your creator.

This sounds like a "your name is Toby" situation to me. That's how the Orokin tried to control people, after all, strip out every part of their identity that wasn't "our slaves"

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

The concept artists for Mortal Kombat originally named Shang Tsung "Mustard" and Sektor "Ketchup", you want to call those canon names? But let's get to the Warframe part:

Time to crack out the transcript for the millionth time:

Ballas: Lua brings you strength, Umbra, but you cannot defy your creator.

This sounds like a "your name is Toby" situation to me. That's how the Orokin tried to control people, after all, strip out every part of their identity that wasn't "our slaves"

Do you have any basis for saying that the Orokin just renamed people in order to control them or is that just how you think the Orokin tried to control people?

All I'm saying is this: We have two sources (concept art and Ballas' dialogue) that name him Umbra and absolutely no sources that contradict that. There is nothing in the game that says his name wasn't Umbra, and we have a character and concept art that name him Umbra. I don't care what the leaked TWW dialogue referred to. That isn't canon, just like the other, older leaked text from the game (i.e. references to the Royal Trade Colony) isn't canon. The fact that he is called Umbra in the quest and the fact that the concept art, which references his pre-Warframe Dax appearance, is called "Umbra" suggest that his name is, in fact, Umbra.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, OniDax said:

I don't care what the leaked TWW dialogue referred to. That isn't canon, just like the other, older leaked text from the game (i.e. references to the Royal Trade Colony) isn't canon. The fact that he is called Umbra in the quest and the fact that the concept art, 

I find this part right here very hypocritical

As my final word, I assume you have either never heard of or just forgotten about the normal human practice of addressing someone by their rank. "Thank you, Private." His name isn't Private, but his rank is Private. They do this in game too, addressing a single player as "Tenno." Your name isn't Tenno, but you are from the Tenno caste.

That's what Ballas is doing to Excal Umbra. Calling him by his new "rank" to mock him

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

I find this part right here very hypocritical

As my final word, I assume you have either never heard of or just forgotten about the normal human practice of addressing someone by their rank. "Thank you, Private." His name isn't Private, but his rank is Private. They do this in game too, addressing a single player as "Tenno." Your name isn't Tenno, but you are from the Tenno caste.

That's what Ballas is doing to Excal Umbra. Calling him by his new "rank" to mock him

That's a very big stretch. Umbra isn't a rank. We know this. If that's what Ballas was doing, he would've just said "Dax". Again, we have two pieces of evidence that suggest his name is Umbra and none to suggest it's a rank or that it's what he is or anything like that. He's not an Umbra. He's a Dax, and if that's what Ballas was doing, he would've just said "Dax" instead of "Umbra." Nothing in the game suggests that Umbra is something other than his name. Nothing.

[minininja77]

If they are going to add another one the Duviri Paradox based on the trailer seems like a fine place to place it

[kyori]

Yes we need more Umbra... for more jojo reference!

Then Warframe can change name to WarStand... everyone running around with operator and let their stand do the job. 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

we do have an umbra megathread on discussing umbra frames if you wish to join in ^ 

some have made speculations, such as primes colors to be the point of who gets an umbra, darker powered frames, or those whose primes were favorited, soem bieng the origional set of frames ect

currently one thing thats perplexing is how will they be incorporated/obtained imo 

though if i had a hope nyx umbra would be nice....

Spoiler

On 2021-05-04 at 10:18 PM, Dr.Enthu said:

After excalibur umbra what would be the next umbral frame ( maybe the frame for which a prime version doesnt exist like nidus).

 

[TARINunit9]

16 hours ago, OniDax said:

Again, we have two pieces of evidence that suggest his name is Umbra

No we don't. If the War Within scrapped script isn't canon, then by your logic neither is the label on some concept art. That only leaves Ballas's dialogue, which can go either way. All we know is that he is addressed as "Umbra." It's either a name or rank, and not definitively either one

And no, his rank wasn't Dax anymore, that was the entire point of turning him into a Warframe in the first place

[OniDax]

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

No we don't. If the War Within scrapped script isn't canon, then by your logic neither is the label on some concept art. That only leaves Ballas's dialogue, which can go either way. All we know is that he is addressed as "Umbra." It's either a name or rank, and not definitively either one

The reason the scrapped script isn't canon is because it was obviously replaced by a different script. That's what makes the scrapped one non-canon. The concept art hasn't be replaced/overwritten by something else. It's still a valid reference to the Dax who became Excalibur Umbra, and it calls the Dax "Umbra." So, by my logic, yes, that is canon.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, OniDax said:

The reason the scrapped script isn't canon is because it was obviously replaced by a different script. That's what makes the scrapped one non-canon. The concept art hasn't be replaced/overwritten by something else.

Thing is, they didn't actually use that concept art like you claimed. I just checked, and the concept art ended up being used for the Erra cutscene, NOT Isaah Dax. So clearly Lucas Hug is not a writer, he doesn't decide the canon

Then there's the matter of the supposedly "replaced" script. Here's the original script:

Quote

Teshin:

"Pupil! We have to go! NOW!"

Operator:

"Teshin, what was that? What is Umbra?"

Teshin:

"A fury untamed by Tenno control. A rogue Warframe."

Operator:

"How is that possible?"

Teshin:

"It is beyond me. Focus on the now. We must escape. Your life depends on it!"
 

Does that honestly sound like it was replaced? Sure as hell doesn't to me. Sounds like Umbra is a rank, not a name

[OniDax]

9 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Thing is, they didn't actually use that concept art like you claimed. I just checked, and the concept art ended up being used for the Erra cutscene, NOT Isaah Dax. So clearly Lucas Hug is not a writer, he doesn't decide the canon

Then there's the matter of the supposedly "replaced" script. Here's the original script:

Does that honestly sound like it was replaced? Sure as hell doesn't to me. Sounds like Umbra is a rank, not a name

 

So, they slightly changed the in-game mesh to show his eyes instead of hiding them like in the concept art. Ok? That's still using the concept art. And Umbra shows up in the painting that's referenced in the quest and that you receive as a reward for completing the quest. Seems canon to me. Lucas doesn't decide the canon, but he sure creates art based on the canon that he's given. Also, that script was replaced, clearly, because it's literally not the final script for The Second Dream. That's pretty obvious. Nothing, not even the old script you pasted, indicates that Umbra is a rank. That's like saying "Prime" is a rank. It's actually not. Again, nothing that is actually in the game or based on what's in the game (i.e. concept art released alongside in-game content, not leaked from the game files) suggests that Umbra is anything other than his name.

Regardless, it ultimately doesn't matter. DE isn't going to make more. They don't want to.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

11 hours ago, OniDax said:

Regardless, it ultimately doesn't matter. DE isn't going to make more. They don't want to.

not sure of that myself, though they stated in a recent devstream, " We have had internal discussions about creating new Umbra Warframes, but there are no plans yet! It isn’t likely that any new ones would be lore dependent like Excalibur Umbra." so they are planning to do more umbras (just not lore based ones) as also pointed out in devstreams 58,125,152, they ahve stated more are coming (someday)  but due to covid, and staff restrictions,  they are focusing on other projects at this time. like deimos , railjack, system QOL and changes ect. duvirii and other projects were also shelved last year and de is still planning to implement them. given excalibur umbra (sacrifice) quest was repeatedly shelved for plenty of reasons, so im not surprised 

 umbra frames by themselves are a good way to expand build variations and styles, but as individual releases wouldn't be much different then prime or a normal frame, so probably as the game progresses, the umbra system( way to obtain/implement) will be brought in with some major update down the road. it took 3+ years to get excalibur umbra, so its not unfair to contemplate it will take some time.  maybe with tencent in charge now warframe staff can expand and grow and get a more projects done simultaneously (my hope anyway)  

[TARINunit9]

12 hours ago, OniDax said:

That's like saying "Prime" is a rank. It's actually not. 

Ok so we are going to bash head about this crap until the end of time, if we disagree this fundamentally about how Warframes work. I agree, we should break off here. Thanks for the debate, I hope you have a nice weekend