The Banshee Rework We Need

[(PSN)Miss_Toggy]

Banshee's not everyone's warframe, but her abilities have become under par since a lot of other frames were introduced and reworked. Here's a suggested rework that would bring her up to where the other frames are and help maintain her role as an alternate stealth / AoE combat / utility frame.

Passive: Same, but with the addition of a Decibel meter (similar to Gauss's battery). The meter passively increases the range of her abilities (will likely need extensive testing for proper balance)

1st: Leave as is, except enemies hit build up her Decibel meter (extra if they are killed)

2nd: Sonar / Silence / Compress. Cycle through 3 abilities: Sonar, Silence, and Compress. Sonar and Silence remain unchanged except that enemies killed while in their AoE increase Banshee's Decibel meter (bonus for hitting crit spots for Sonar / finishers for Silence). Compress (new): Banshee creates a sound field around an enemy, stopping their movements and opening them to finishers for a duration. Finishers contribute to her Decibel meter.

3nd: Sound Quake. May need to be nerfed slightly to balance gameplay, but otherwise unchanged except that each enemy killed would increase the Decibel meter.

4th: Decibel Drop [filler name for now]: Empty the Decibel meter to unleash a radial soundwave that guaranteed stuns enemies (if possible) and deals a large amount of impact damage. Damage decays over distance, but range is high. The higher the Decibel meter, the greater the damage. Survivors are open to finishers. Bonus damage if enemies are affected by Sonar, Silence, or Compress (stacks with diminishing returns)

This is a concept and I didn't provide any exact numbers in case the off chance this is actually implemented, her new abilities can be tested and balanced so she isn't god tier out of the box nor as weak as she currently is.

[BodyAndMind]

Nein.

[Uhkretor]

... Would people just stop assuming that everyone wants the exact same changes...? Or, better yet, would people just stop assuming that everyone even needs and/or wants changes to happen...?

I mean, we're not clones of the same mo- -person, right...?

 

On a more serious note than the serious tone I used before...

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Miss_Toggy said:

The Banshee Rework We Need

... I don't need that rework... and there have been like 1500 or so rework proposals from players already...

Does Banshee need a rework? Perhaps... What makes Banshee's needs more important than the other 70% of all Warframes?

... Or is it your needs that are at play here, and you're using Banshee as an escape goat so that no one notices it? If so, then maybe you need a rework instead of Banshee...

[_Anise_]

banshee has 2 builds one of them you can play with helminth and do better on any other frame but her, the other build is a debuffer build that helps the party kill trash enemies,

her ultimate sucks, only has a few niche use cases that other frames can do better, she is also super squishy but won't get any buffs because too many simps.

[Zeddypanda]

Yeah sorry, not a fan. Adding a meter seems fine, but I don't like seeing a cycle ability added for no reason. Silence already opens up for finishers with the augment, (would the cost be brought down?), and the proposed ult pretty much just seems like the augment ult as well.

[Lutesque]

You know... It would help if you described in detail what's wrong with Banshee before proposing any changes....

This isn't me speaking.... It's literally in the Feedback Guidelines.... 😛

 

[Tiltskillet]

I love seeing people talk about Banshee.   Fair warning:  I've got some strong opinions on the subject, and have some questions and criticisms.  Just take this as the ramblings of somebody who has thought about Banshee way too much than is really healthy. 😉

10 hours ago, (PSN)Miss_Toggy said:

Passive: Same, but with the addition of a Decibel meter (similar to Gauss's battery). The meter passively increases the range of her abilities (will likely need extensive testing for proper balance)

Added range is a negative for many Savage Silence builds, and can be a negative for Sonic Boom.   Maybe Strength instead?

 

10 hours ago, (PSN)Miss_Toggy said:

1st: Leave as is, except enemies hit build up her Decibel meter (extra if they are killed)

If it's not changed, there's not much danger of killing things.   I suppose if blasting bad guys into chasms counts, but I think technically the game just respawns those enemies. 

10 hours ago, (PSN)Miss_Toggy said:

2nd: Sonar / Silence / Compress. Cycle through 3 abilities: Sonar, Silence, and Compress. Sonar and Silence remain unchanged except that enemies killed while in their AoE increase Banshee's Decibel meter (bonus for hitting crit spots for Sonar / finishers for Silence). Compress (new): Banshee creates a sound field around an enemy, stopping their movements and opening them to finishers for a duration. Finishers contribute to her Decibel meter.

This could be interesting.  However, my kneejerk reaction is that I might get killed a lot more playing her while I'm fiddling with a three way cycle ability.

Silence doesn't enable finishers without the augment, so that's a little odd even though you're providing other ways to do so in her kit.    (I suppose the augments for Sonar and Silence would still be separate?)

What's the role of Compress?  Is it really just a single target ability?  And while it sounds like a much longer duration form of CC, she does have staggers, ragdolls, and stuns in her kit already.  I think I might look to enhance those before adding another CC ability, especially one on a cycle select.

And it enabling finishers seems partially redundant with Savage Silence.

10 hours ago, (PSN)Miss_Toggy said:

3nd: Sound Quake. May need to be nerfed slightly to balance gameplay, but otherwise unchanged except that each enemy killed would increase the Decibel meter.

Not even an energy consumption change for going from an ult to a 3?

10 hours ago, (PSN)Miss_Toggy said:

4th: Decibel Drop [filler name for now]: Empty the Decibel meter to unleash a radial soundwave that guaranteed stuns enemies (if possible) and deals a large amount of impact damage. Damage decays over distance, but range is high. The higher the Decibel meter, the greater the damage. Survivors are open to finishers. Bonus damage if enemies are affected by Sonar, Silence, or Compress (stacks with diminishing returns)

Way too similar to Resonating Quake for my taste.   I do like the meter idea in principle.  And if you were proposing this as a replacement for Sound Quake instead of keeping both, I'd be pretty enthusiastic.

 * * *

Anyway, those are my thoughts such as they are. Again, I hope all that doesn't seem too critical. 

[_Anise_]

12 hours ago, Lutesque said:

It would help if you described in detail what's wrong with Banshee before proposing any changes

I will have a go! for what good it will do.

her passive is meh? its a free hush mod which would be "ok" if she had stealth or it interacted with temporary stealth sources in the game in any way otherwise I don't get it ? warframe is too fast paced for gun sounds to matter unless you are playing an actual frame with stealth, maybe it could also have faster projectile speed or something because of the sound barrier ?

her #1 a cc / armor strip, I think its meh but some people like it, anyway prime helminth replace slot

the #2 one of the only two core abilities she will use is and I actually enjoy to an extent, its main issues is it won't apply to bosses, so things like roar and haste motes will increase your damage against bosses this will not, Other enemies will just shrug it off as fast as you can apply it, placs where it should work like the explosive enemies on disruption!! again hast and roar work just fine against.

number 3 is the only other abilities she uses, kind of disappointed they gave this away on helminth but its also that "popular" I haven't seen a single person playing it on banshee or healminth, if you are into melee it might be a fun build I can't say but I didn't enjoy it, though I did sort of like it for its temporary CC but with the odd range activation thing stuff like wisps breach or nezha's spears just ultimately feel better.

Finally her ultimate is just bad, its expensive, is it supposed to be a CC ? but some mobs are immune to soft cc , you crowd control yourself while using it, and while some will boast you can area control the whole map other frames are better at it and don't lock themselves out of the game while doing it,

also is it supposed to be damage ? it doesn't scale as is so I don't know maybe make it deal damage type based on your energy color or something, so if you want the soft cc blast you can have that but can change it to something more useful

overall for melee I think her core kit lacks mobility and in general surviability and is too much cc focused on a game that really is about killing stuff

[Lutesque]

10 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

I will have a go! for what good it will do.

Like I said.... It's what DE themselves want.... They never ask for Suggestions and Solutions (atleast not here).... They just want to know what the issue is.... I reckon it's the same for most Developers.

12 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

 

her passive is meh? its a free hush mod which would be "ok" if she had stealth or it interacted with temporary stealth sources in the game in any way otherwise I don't get it ?

Well there you go.... The problem isn't her Passive... It's the game not being designed around Sound in general.... 😁 !!! This the sort revelations we miss if we make suggestions before we outline the issues... 

14 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

 

her #1 a cc / armor strip, I think its meh but some people like it, anyway prime helminth replace slot

I think they like it because it's like being a Jedi.... You tap into the Force to knock Enemies flat on their Asses.....

What does this ability do anyway ? I mean.... I know what it does but what do the Developers want us to use it for ?

19 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

the #2 one of the only two core abilities she will use is and I actually enjoy to an extent, its main issues is it won't apply to bosses, so things like roar and haste motes will increase your damage against bosses this will not, Other enemies will just shrug it off as fast as you can apply it, placs where it should work like the explosive enemies on disruption!! again hast and roar work just fine against.

Is this the The Sonar one that places Weak Points on enemies ?

Well if the main issue is that it doesn't work on Bosses then that can easily be Fixed.... But my specific issue with it is that specific aspect of this ability doesn't jive with Banshee's Theme.

The Ability to Reveal Enemy Locations on the other hand I like very much  as that plays into her theme very well... The problem is WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO ISSUES FINDING ENEMIES.... There's so many enemies Everywhere that it's not even a thing.... 

I guess that would explain the reasoning behind its secondary effect.... Since Revealing Enemies is useless it can just "Reveal" the weak points instead....

In any case I don't know how to go about Fixing this one because The Ability works just fine and because it's Thematically Consistent I say it's Very Nice.... It's the fact that it's not needed that's the problem...

28 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

number 3 is the only other abilities she uses, kind of disappointed they gave this away on helminth but its also that "popular" I haven't seen a single person playing it on banshee or healminth, if you are into melee it might be a fun build I can't say but I didn't enjoy it, though I did sort of like it for its temporary CC but with the odd range activation thing stuff like wisps breach or nezha's spears just ultimately feel better.

My feelings about Silence is the same as with Sonic Boom.... I don't actually know what it's suppose to do 🤔.... I know what it actually does but what do DE want us to do with it ?

31 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

Finally her ultimate is just bad, its expensive, is it supposed to be a CC ? but some mobs are immune to soft cc , you crowd control yourself while using it, and while some will boast you can area control the whole map other frames are better at it and don't lock themselves out of the game while doing it,

Pretty much... If there's one Ability that doesn't need any Feedback it's probably this one.... It's Practically unsalvageable. 

Although I can kinda see what they were going for....Sound generates Vibrations and they figured that she needed more than just the Ability to Run around Muting things.... 

But like I said.... The game is just isn't designed around Sound (it's actually pain in the ass to get Sound Mechanics to behave predictably in Stealth Games).... Also I don't think the "Vibration Angle" is going to lead to anything fun even if you could make it useful....

 

[TnaneverRisen]

20 hours ago, (PSN)Miss_Toggy said:

Banshee's not everyone's warframe, but her abilities have become under par since a lot of other frames were introduced and reworked. Here's a suggested rework that would bring her up to where the other frames are and help maintain her role as an alternate stealth / AoE combat / utility frame.

Passive: Same, but with the addition of a Decibel meter (similar to Gauss's battery). The meter passively increases the range of her abilities (will likely need extensive testing for proper balance)

1st: Leave as is, except enemies hit build up her Decibel meter (extra if they are killed)

2nd: Sonar / Silence / Compress. Cycle through 3 abilities: Sonar, Silence, and Compress. Sonar and Silence remain unchanged except that enemies killed while in their AoE increase Banshee's Decibel meter (bonus for hitting crit spots for Sonar / finishers for Silence). Compress (new): Banshee creates a sound field around an enemy, stopping their movements and opening them to finishers for a duration. Finishers contribute to her Decibel meter.

3nd: Sound Quake. May need to be nerfed slightly to balance gameplay, but otherwise unchanged except that each enemy killed would increase the Decibel meter.

4th: Decibel Drop [filler name for now]: Empty the Decibel meter to unleash a radial soundwave that guaranteed stuns enemies (if possible) and deals a large amount of impact damage. Damage decays over distance, but range is high. The higher the Decibel meter, the greater the damage. Survivors are open to finishers. Bonus damage if enemies are affected by Sonar, Silence, or Compress (stacks with diminishing returns)

This is a concept and I didn't provide any exact numbers in case the off chance this is actually implemented, her new abilities can be tested and balanced so she isn't god tier out of the box nor as weak as she currently is.

Pretty good idea in general, but I really dislike cycle-style multi-skills.  All should be removed from the game.

The "decibel meter" idea is particularly interesting.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

Will people ever stop to say "we want", "we need" or similar iterations when they pitch personal opinions or ideas? Grow a spine and stand for what YOU think and let it speak for itself. I never can take anything serious if it follows phrases like this since it gives me the impression someone isn't even convinced by their own idea and they have to put in imagined agreement in advance to give it validity.

Anyways, I'm not a fan of most frames with a meter mechanic. The only one that does it right for me is actually Gauss - after DE changed it around, the initial Gauss battery was also questionably balanced if I recall correctly. I don't like it on Baruuk, I think it's gimmicky on Sevagoth and I find it annoying on Ember. No idea if I forgot one. Point is, for me frames involving meter mechanics more often than not missed the mark in my opinion. So, I'm already aversed by the core mechanic change you propose. I'm not saying it's uninteresting. I'm saying there's a lot of room to mess this up for DE.

Circling through abilities: also not a fan.

Compress is what the augment Savage Silence basically already does. I suppose it gives a bit more flexibility but it's still the same effect she already has available with a different ability.

Why would you keep Sound Quake, nerf it AND add a stronger aoe as her 4? Sound Quake is already bad as it is. You might as well remove Sound Quake and move one of the 3 abilities of her 2 there.

Basically, when it was up to me I'd replace Sound Quake with your Decibel Drop. Get rid of Sound Quake, get rid of Compress. Keep the decibel meter mechanic to build up to a better 4 than she currently has, go from there and improve/change the abilities that would be left if needed. For example (just a random brainfart) her 1 could get armor strip based on the meter which would mean you could change the augment for it and it would add some decision-making. Do I sit at 100% meter to keep the armor strip or do I cast my 4?

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Deeceem said:

Will people ever stop to say "we want", "we need" or similar iterations when they pitch personal opinions or ideas? Grow a spine and stand for what YOU think and let it speak for itself. I never can take anything serious if it follows phrases like this since it gives me the impression someone isn't even convinced by their own idea and they have to put in imagined agreement in advance to give it validity.

LoL... I think we all think that, Subconsciously.... 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Deeceem said:

No idea if I forgot one.

Nidus maybe ?

Do Stacks count ?

Or how about Saryn's Spores ?

 

[_Anise_]

8 hours ago, Lutesque said:

My feelings about Silence is the same as with Sonic Boom.... I don't actually know what it's suppose to do 🤔.... I know what it actually does but what do DE want us to do with it ?

its one of her only 2 builds so I suppose they want banshee players to go melee with it ? in a pinch use it for cc ? but it isnt great at it,so I am with you on this one, when I play banshee sonar is kind of the only ability I use!

do you feel like instead of CC this should could be some kind of stealth skill? that would make her less squishy, make her passive make sense while retaining some of the execute style gameplay? though if they did it would probably have to change the helminth ability to something else maybe sonic boom.

 

8 hours ago, Lutesque said:

But like I said.... The game is just isn't designed around Sound (it's actually pain in the ass to get Sound Mechanics to behave predictably in Stealth Games).... Also I don't think the "Vibration Angle" is going to lead to anything fun even if you could make it useful....

her first ability is literally "sonic boom", faster than sound! they could base some of her stuff around speed? maybe follow what they did with mag, press to knock down, hold to dash through enemies knocking them down? play into the melee build by adding mobility? or survivability through mobility ?

 

I also chatted with a friend about her needing some kind of survivability and they are running rolling guard, brief respite and enough arguer mods to fill a build and tell me her survivability is just fine. she dosn't need any DR, shield restore or anything because this handful of mods exist and makes this very restricted build unkillable

 

[Lutesque]

12 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

 

do you feel like instead of CC this should could be some kind of stealth skill?

Yep... Pretty much.... Unfortunately Stealth in Warframe exists in only one form...  Invisibility.... Sooooo.... Yeah... That's. Problem....

Although I suppose you can give her a Audio Version of Decoy.... I'm not sure how that would work but it's fun to imagine it...

15 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

her first ability is literally "sonic boom", faster than sound! they could base some of her stuff around speed? maybe follow what they did with mag, press to knock down, hold to dash through enemies knocking them down? play into the melee build by adding mobility? or survivability through mobility ?

Sounds like the type of Ninja Abilities that would be fun....

16 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

 

I also chatted with a friend about her needing some kind of survivability and they are running rolling guard, brief respite and enough arguer mods to fill a build and tell me her survivability is just fine.

LoL.... That's like Spamming 2000 Energy Restores and claiming "Nah… Rhino is not an Energy Hog 😛 "....  

Banshee wouldn't need to rely on Shield Gating this hard if only her abilities could HiJack the AI's behaviour just as well as Loki and Octavia could....

That's what I like about Mallet and Resonator.... Mallet is actually hard coded to draw the Enemies attention even harder than Loki's Decoy does.... I'm not entirely clear on how Resonator works though.... 

 

[Tiltskillet]

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Unfortunately Stealth in Warframe exists in only one form...  Invisibility....

There are ways to reduce awareness range and change awareness state.  But I don't think these work in normal squad play unless their packed with other effects.  For example Lull.

 

18 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Although I suppose you can give her a Audio Version of Decoy.... I'm not sure how that would work . . .

Probably like Noise Arrow.  So...not really.

Actually maybe something could be done with Threat Level, either reducing it for Banshee, or, probably better,  increasing it on some sort of decoy. I don't know how well it works but the mechanic exists.

But personally, I think the better answer is improving some of the damage avoidance potential she already has.  Like one of my favorite ideas is having Silence stun both on entering its radius -and- leaving.  (Probably not on the subsumed version though.)

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Me personally I would like her to get a revisit. If I were to revisit her here is what I would do:

 

Banshee:

NEW Passive: Depending on the level of noise in the environment will determine the weapons and abilities performance.

·       There is a sound indicator showing the volume level of noise.

·       If there is no sound, weapons will be silenced.

·       If there is noise in the environment, her ability strength will increase based on the level of noise.

·       Sounds that Banshee makes does not add to the volume gauge.

 

1st ability:

·       Enemies hit will receive a 30% slower knockdown recovery.

·       Enemies that hit a hard surface will take 600 damage.

·       It can reflect projectile weapons back at enemies and deal double damage due to increased projectile speed.

·       Can be used on the move.

·       Can break breakable objects.

 

2nd ability:

·       Can be used on the move.

·       (Synergy) Enemies affected take increase damage from her 1st and 4th ability.

 

3rd ability:

·       Enemies will notice you within a 10m of their vision.

·       Enemies will have a slower reaction time when noticing you (if you stand in front of them it will take them 3 seconds until they react to your presents)

·       If you hold the ability, you can control how far the ability reaches based on how much range it has.

·       Show the radius of the ability.

·       Put an indicator above enemies’ head to show how quickly they will be alerted by seeing you. (like stealth games)

·       If enemies are alerted, casting this ability will revert them back to being un-alerted however they will still be alerted if the alarms are on or if you are in their sights.

·       Can be used on the move.

·       Remove muffled sound and instead increase the volume of the noises that enemies make, making her aware of enemies’ position (wearing headphones will increase the usefulness of this ability).

·       (Synergy) If you use after casting the 2nd ability, you can see enemies through walls. It will also give you 4.0 punch-through on weapons. (can be increased by strength mods)

 

4th Ability:

·       Increase cast speed.

·       Enemies will be suspended in the air.

·       After being cast, you can now move around while active.

·       It drains 6 energy a second.

·       After deactivation, enemies will have their accuracy reduced by 80%.

·       Can break breakable objects.

·       (Synergy) because this makes continues noise, the volume gauge will be at its highest as long as the ability is active.

[_Anise_]

On 2021-05-07 at 1:28 PM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

3rd ability:

I saw you posted this on reddit too, love this suggestion about making it pretty much "long range only" stealth, it effectively makes it stealth but different to the one that every other stealth frame has!, it gives much needed survivability but limiting what enemies can attack! makes the silence weapons passive make sense, it gives control over the range which is important for the situation you want to use it in! such a pain to farm multiples of the same mods to save them at different ranks to get positive or negative ranges! I like it