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Giving enemies DR is design cowardice.


keikogi
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Posted (edited)

Why give an enemy 1000 health and 99,9% DR ? Just give the enemy 1 000 000 health instead. There is no reason to make the system more convoluted them it need to be. 

There is a growing trend of removing enemy’s resistance from its visible parameters (health, armor and shields) to invisible parameters like DR and the even more worse scaling DR. It´s an odd design decision that just makes the game more convoluted.

Edited by keikogi
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Just now, Lutesque said:

Don't forget about Status/Ability Immunity....

Also could you turn the Hostility down a Few notches....?

Save the venting for Twitter 😉 

editing the tone right now, 

the status thing is another enterely diferent can off worms. 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Don't forget about Status/Ability Immunity....

Also could you turn the Hostility down a Few notches....?

Save the venting for Twitter 😉 

Should be less venting now. 

The status imunity is an enterely diferent can off worms. It mostly stens from the lack off natural balance off the status system ( some status care about both aplication rate and damage , some care only about damage and other only care about aplication rate ) , the imbalance between status procs and the enemies unability to resist status outside off imunity. Since enemies can´t resist status , any enemy can be trivialized trougt status ( quite hard to make somthing hard if I can easily slow by 90% , increase my damage output by 325% and deal true damage to it. 

The DR thing just feels like there no reason behind it because well you can just give an enemy 10000 base health 

Edited by keikogi
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4 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Do you have any more details or are you venting? Which enemy? How did you build against it? 

Could you miss the point any harder? My point is not the eHP of the enemy. My point is it´s better to just give an enemy 2000 health than 1000 and 50% DR, for the sake of transparency and clarity. There is not point about difficult or toughness here. 

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8 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Could you miss the point any harder? My point is not the eHP of the enemy. My point is it´s better to just give an enemy 2000 health than 1000 and 50% DR, for the sake of transparency and clarity. There is not point about difficult or toughness here. 

Then why do you want it changed if it's not difficult for you? 

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21 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Should be less venting now. 

Eggcelent 😈 !!!

DE is more likely to care if they don't have filter out the salt from the Useful information....

23 minutes ago, keikogi said:

The DR thing just feels like there no reason behind it because well you can just give an enemy 10000 base health 

I'm no programmer but maybe there's a memory issue with giving Enemies that much health even if enemies are low level the engine still has to allocate the same amount of Resources to those enemies as if they were Max level.... Thus causing the game to slow down.....

Or maybe the engine can handle it but since online multiplayer is a factor, internet connection speeds might not..... 

Or maybe there's some other motive for Damage Reduction....

I really hate Damage Reduction.... It's the one thing that has no Hard Counter....

 

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Then why do you want it changed if it's not difficult for you? 

                                                   Ever 

                              heard 

                                                                  of 

clarity ?

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Posted (edited)

I think the resistance to this fair albeit vague complaint is a little harsh. If a game feels unfair that's a valid complaint. If a game seems to hide it's systems behind layers of math that's a fair complaint. A fair response would also be that some of this nerd's math puzzle stuff is part of the game's appeal to certain people. Still, it's very fair to say that that sort of appeal is a little too niche.

tl;dr people's feelings are real even if they stem from a lack of experience and maybe chill a bit. complex issue

Edited by BlueQuiller
added tl;dr
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Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-06 at 7:45 PM, Lutesque said:

Eggcelent 😈 !!!

DE is more likely to care if they don't have filter out the salt from the Useful information....

I'm no programmer but maybe there's a memory issue with giving Enemies that much health even if enemies are low level the engine still has to allocate the same amount of Resources to those enemies as if they were Max level.... Thus causing the game to slow down.....

Or maybe the engine can handle it but since online multiplayer is a factor, internet connection speeds might not..... 

Or maybe there's some other motive for Damage Reduction....

I really hate Damage Reduction.... It's the one thing that has no Hard Counter....

 

I guarantee that as an amateur programmer that dealing with simple addition/subtraction on numbers up to like roughly +-10^16 for 32-bit signed floating point numbers or whatever is a much computationally simpler thing than doing a long series of exponents, roots, harder calcs like the current damage system (see fandom wiki). It's fine to look at this purely from design and not think too hard about "optimisation" imo.

 

edit: future me looking back on this comment to say take what past me said above with a grain of salt. The main point's there but the details might be off.

Edited by BlueQuiller
I sound sort of like an ass
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1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

I'm no programmer but maybe there's a memory issue with giving Enemies that much health even if enemies are low level the engine still has to allocate the same amount of Resources to those enemies as if they were Max level.... Thus causing the game to slow down.....

Or maybe the engine can handle it but since online multiplayer is a factor, internet connection speeds might not..... 

Or maybe there's some other motive for Damage Reduction....

I really hate Damage Reduction.... It's the one thing that has no Hard Counter....

It's hard to tell because I don't know the way the engine maths. I would say it's unlikely.

5 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

really hate Damage Reduction.... It's the one thing that has no Hard Counter

Straight up health also has only 1 counter that barely used in the game and probably should not exist on a game with scaling levels. Problem DE seemingly does not like stuff just having a lot of health for some God forsaken reason.

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... In the matter where Armor is included, its represented by "Damage Resistance" and not a huge HP pool (huge HP pool is how its usually represented in Star Trek Online and that causes confusion by itself)...

So, the example you're basing this thread on must be those Corpus Treasurers, the ones that reward Granum Coins. If that's the case then I admit I don't understand the reasoning behind their DR as there's no valid reasoning behind it.

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it gets more complicated when we have Level Scaling, that scales their EHP. while any sorts of Special DR they give Enemies, does not. so if they gave an Enemy 1,000,000 base Health, it would actually be significantly harder to Kill than 1000 Health and 99.9% DR.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, taiiat said:

it gets more complicated when we have Level Scaling, that scales their EHP. while any sorts of Special DR they give Enemies, does not. so if they gave an Enemy 1,000,000 base Health, it would actually be significantly harder to Kill than 1000 Health and 99.9% DR.

If lvl scaling was HP^( lvl scaling) but it is HP x Mutiplier^( lvl scaling ). Putting it rather rougly. 
So if you have 1000 hp and 99,9% or 10000000 Hp it has no influence over scaling becasue ( 1000 / (1-99,9%)) * mutiplier^(lvl scaling )  is the same result as  1000000 * mutiplier ^ (lvl scaling) 
IF you want to see the proper sacling nonsense, here a snap from the wiki.

Spoiler

 

How scaling of fundamental enemy stats works in general is identical for all the stats: Each enemy type has a base value for this fundamental stat and a base level, the current value of the stat at the current level of the enemy is then calculated after a formula of the following structure:

{\displaystyle {\text{Current Value}}={\text{Base Value}}\times (1+{\text{Coefficient}}({\text{Current Level}}-{\text{Base Level}})^{\text{Exponent}})}

Exponent and coefficient are determined by the specific stat in question but are equal across all enemy types. The base level and base value of the stat are determined by the enemy type. The current level is then the independent variable and the current value of the stat is the dependent variable of the formula.

 

 

 

Edited by keikogi
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40 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

So, the example you're basing this thread on must be those Corpus Treasurers, the ones that reward Granum Coins. If that's the case then I admit I don't understand the reasoning behind their DR as there's no valid reasoning behind it.

That´s is what I was trying to get at.

41 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... In the matter where Armor is included, its represented by "Damage Resistance" and not a huge HP pool (huge HP pool is how its usually represented in Star Trek Online and that causes confusion by itself)...

If a game can´t display it´s damage number it either has a HUD ´problem or a scaling problem. 

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1 hour ago, BlueQuiller said:

I guarantee that as an amateur programmer that dealing with simple addition/subtraction on numbers up to like roughly +-10^16 for 32-bit signed floating point numbers or whatever is a much computationally simpler thing than doing a long series of exponents, roots, harder calcs like the current damage system (see fandom wiki). It's fine to look at this purely from design and not think too hard about "optimisation" imo.

That's good to know... 🙂

 

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19 minutes ago, keikogi said:

That´s is what I was trying to get at.

If a game can´t display it´s damage number it either has a HUD ´problem or a scaling problem. 

The corpus treasurer is supposed to run away from us and not get caught. They probably want you to actually use Magnetic and toxin like you're supposed to on corpus, or coordinate with your teammates to take him down. 

People that have played for awhile kill the treasurer on accident. The DR isn't a big deal.

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Generally agreed with the OP. Hidden damage resistance modifiers for enemies are just lazy design. Worse, they're also pointless. All you're doing is increasing EHP in a roundabout way, so why bother? At least when it comes to armour, that has a health type attached to it so at least in THEORY that can have an impact on gameplay. Some weapons and damage types chew through it, some struggle. But flat damage resistance? Why?

The same goes for status immunity, as well. DE talked a big talk about removing status immunity from Liches and potentially giving some use for Status to everyone - including Assassination bosses. Yet with Deimos and now Railjack, we're right back around to status-immune enemies, and on Commons this time. If you have to continually bar a major mechanic of your game from working, then maybe think about fixing the mechanic? Piling workarounds onto kludges onto band-aids makes for a mess of a game.

I really wish DE would stop creating special-case exceptions in everything. That's not good game design. Standardise your sodding enemy stats!

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Then why do you want it changed if it's not difficult for you? 

The OP only has three lines of text to read, surely it can't be that hard.

As for the OP, I agree, I dislike DR as a mechanic due to the inconsistency it creates any time we deal damage, and would be much happier simply giving certain units more base health or shields instead. I think this discussion could be taken even further and applied to other sources of DR like armor and damage type resistances, but if nothing else, I think it wouldn't really hurt to remove the supplementary DR from certain units and increase their health and shields proportionately instead.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, keikogi said:

If lvl scaling was HP^( lvl scaliong) but it is HP x Mutiplier^( lvl scaling ). Putting it rather rougly. 
So if you have 1000 hp and 99,9% or 10000000 Hp it has no influence over scaling becasue ( 1000 / (1-99,9%) * mutiplier^(lvl scaling ) ) is the same result as  1000000 * mutiplier ^ (lvl scaling) 

it still gets more complicated when we have standard Special DR, and dynamic DR - and some of these Enemies have Armor and/or Shields, and some Enemies have automatically generated variants of themselves, and so it continues on.
ala the extra DR isn't always the same.

 

not that i'm advocating for hidden Stats or bypassing of Game Mechanics, hidden Stats are stupid.

40 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

The same goes for status immunity, as well. DE talked a big talk about removing status immunity from Liches and potentially giving some use for Status to everyone - including Assassination bosses. Yet with Deimos and now Railjack, we're right back around to status-immune enemies, and on Commons this time. 

just the usual same 'ol same 'ol - Marketing/PR, the profession of lies.

Edited by taiiat
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56 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Generally agreed with the OP. Hidden damage resistance modifiers for enemies are just lazy design. Worse, they're also pointless. All you're doing is increasing EHP in a roundabout way, so why bother? At least when it comes to armour, that has a health type attached to it so at least in THEORY that can have an impact on gameplay. Some weapons and damage types chew through it, some struggle. But flat damage resistance? Why?

The same goes for status immunity, as well. DE talked a big talk about removing status immunity from Liches and potentially giving some use for Status to everyone - including Assassination bosses. Yet with Deimos and now Railjack, we're right back around to status-immune enemies, and on Commons this time. If you have to continually bar a major mechanic of your game from working, then maybe think about fixing the mechanic? Piling workarounds onto kludges onto band-aids makes for a mess of a game.

I really wish DE would stop creating special-case exceptions in everything. That's not good game design. Standardise your sodding enemy stats!

You know what I think... I think Warframe needs a Beta version where DE can actually try some of these things out.... Preferably with premade Loadouts instead of our own....

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Then why do you want it changed if it's not difficult for you? 

 Read and understand before saying anything.  This thread is not about difficulty. It's about clarity.  

 

But back on topic. I agree with the OP. arbitrary, hidden Damage Reduction values are straight up design cowardice. DE is afraid that if they show the enemies' actual eHP values, it will scare players away from doing these contents. So they hide it and pretend everything is normal.   

It's just like Railjack enemies in general. Their actual damage output and eHP are closer to being level 200 than lvl 50-60 like they are being shown. Perhaps DE thinks that if new players sees the enemy levels being 200, they will be intimidated and not play Railjack. And perhaps this is a working strategy. Because if new players enters a Railjack mission, a geared player can easily carry them through the entire stage with little issue.  It's cowardice. But it works.   

What would happen if DE change it to show what they actually are and remove the arbitrary DR? Like if those tiny Corpus drone in Railjack missions are shown their actual HP values in the tens of millions and actual level of like 250. I would certainly like it, but I'm not sure new players would.  

The deeper core issue is still the fact that Warframe's math are all screwed up.  There's no way that damage output and eHP (for both players and enemies) that can be plotted on a log scale is healthy or any kind of game. Power fantasy or not.   

Edited by Bakaguya-sama
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