A thought about Duviri Paradox design

[SampleText_vich]

I watched the trailer a lot of times and I got the idea that DE wants to return to the old style of gameplay through this expansion.

A lot of people will disagree, but bullet jumping made the game worse. I like it too, but it's inclusion sacrifices challenge. You can jump past anything and completely ignore pre-parkour 2.0 tiles.

So. In the trailer our mature operator can't use void abilities (minus void dash) and uses guns, fighting against ancient enemies, that a normal human can take on. Literally a perfect set up for the old style combat.

 

But, DE always want to include everything (railjack and squad links and etc.), so what if because of the "paradox" we will be able to switch between old and new style, along with enemies around you. If that's the idea, then I really don't know what's the purpose of it. Though it's just my theory, that is of course incorrect.

Let's hope there will be some reveal in 17th's July about this.

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

!!! Another one who wonders what a world without Bullet Jumping would look like? Hello, @SampleText_vich!

(personally, I indulge in such a world constantly, and found it so much to my liking that I sometimes forget Bullet Jumping is a thing :P)

[SampleText_vich]

15 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

!!! Another one who wonders what a world without Bullet Jumping would look like? Hello, @SampleText_vich!

(personally, I indulge in such a world constantly, and found it so much to my liking that I sometimes forget Bullet Jumping is a thing :P)

i started to notice a LOT of interesting things and design since i stopped bulled jumping like a maniac. Also its more fun to fight enemies this way, because they haven't evolved since parkour 1.0

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, SampleText_vich said:

i started to notice a LOT of interesting things and design since i stopped bulled jumping like a maniac. Also its more fun to fight enemies this way, because they haven't evolved since parkour 1.0

👍 Same. 

On a psychological level as well, I feel like without bullet jumping, I feel a lot less compelled to go Fast Fast Fast. When I was bulletjumping all over the place, rushing towards the next new thing, my main thought most of the time was “I wish I could move faster” or “I wish the next mod or whatever I’m looking for would drop from the next source”, and that was kind of Warframe in a nutshell for me :P

Sorry for the tangent, I was just so excited to meet someone else on the forums who slows down and smells the roses 😅. There’s a few of us now!

Regarding the actual topic, I definitely think it’s food for thought. I’m not sure how it’ll be implemented, but I have wondered myself whether DE regret adding some changes like Bullet Jumping. From my understanding it was originally an inclusion thing from when players would do some movement trickery in the old days to rush through content. Instead of stripping out the ability to move fast using a weird exploit though, they made it official in the form of Bullet Jumping.

Which must have made designing challenges further down the line a nightmare sometimes. I agree, it feels like enemies haven’t evolved much since parkour 1.0, and I’ve seen many forum posts for “Just make the AI better!”.

Whenever I put myself in DE’s shoes, though, everything came down to “So why not just Bullet Jump away?”.

As a small rant; If the “meta weapons” are overpowered in combat, Bullet Jumping is overpowered in traversal :P. I think topics like “Is ledge grab useful?” and the comments under it is testament to how many engage with the movement system that was promised in Parkour 1.0 and delivered in Parkour 2.0, and that does make me sad 😞 

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Roll n slide is superior

[SampleText_vich]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Roll n slide is superior

TRUE

Sliding physics are dank and surprisingly more reliable, because most of the tilesets cant fit your fat bullet jump+double jump and roll

[SampleText_vich]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

👍 Same. 

On a psychological level as well, I feel like without bullet jumping, I feel a lot less compelled to go Fast Fast Fast. When I was bulletjumping all over the place, rushing towards the next new thing, my main thought most of the time was “I wish I could move faster” or “I wish the next mod or whatever I’m looking for would drop from the next source”, and that was kind of Warframe in a nutshell for me :P

Sorry for the tangent, I was just so excited to meet someone else on the forums who slows down and smells the roses 😅. There’s a few of us now!

Regarding the actual topic, I definitely think it’s food for thought. I’m not sure how it’ll be implemented, but I have wondered myself whether DE regret adding some changes like Bullet Jumping. From my understanding it was originally an inclusion thing from when players would do some movement trickery in the old days to rush through content. Instead of stripping out the ability to move fast using a weird exploit though, they made it official in the form of Bullet Jumping.

Which must have made designing challenges further down the line a nightmare sometimes. I agree, it feels like enemies haven’t evolved much since parkour 1.0, and I’ve seen many forum posts for “Just make the AI better!”.

Whenever I put myself in DE’s shoes, though, everything came down to “So why not just Bullet Jump away?”.

As a small rant; If the “meta weapons” are overpowered in combat, Bullet Jumping is overpowered in traversal :P. I think topics like “Is ledge grab useful?” and the comments under it is testament to how many engage with the movement system that was promised in Parkour 1.0 and delivered in Parkour 2.0, and that does make me sad 😞 

No need to apologize, i enjoy it.

I really like the ledge grabs, when the warframe makes a sick flip on the ground. Gives you a room to breath if you did the jump bad.

 

About the AI. I don't see a way to make AI better (and i think DE too, so i dont rant about it really and encourage others to bring alternatives on the table), but it would have been cool if they could speed up if you move too fast. From the walking speed to animations. They tend to sit behind covers and move out of them only when you already past the room. Why not make them shoot you when they're in the cover and see you, for example? So basically all i really want is at least to make some testing session with community, so the response won't be harsh. They rarely used the test servers. Like 3 times or something? Just messing around with enemy settings can yield some good results. Though at this points its like im speaking with DE, a really awkward post. 

 

Also there's the easiest solution: stamina bar for bullet jumping. I understand that everyone will hate it, but it will add some depth into using this ability. Traverse or evade bullets in the next room? Will you even make the jump right, what if running and jumping is more efficient?

 

[Loza03]

I would argue that the map design does not fit bullet jumping and high mobility gameplay very well, and that's what's causing a good chunk of the problem. Another is objective and enemy design, but maps are important.

Consider this - Bullet Jumping is basically rocket jumping, right? Big boost of momentum in one direction. Now, also consider how often Warframe maps put you in a small, low ceiling corridor or an area with wide open spaces and clear A-B sightlines and pathways with no gaps in the floor, walls, buildings or other obstacles. How often are there platforms or ledges to jump onto and how often do the enemies make use of them? And when they are there, how often are they just a single jump away?

 

What I'm saying is that bullet jumping is so effective because the maps aren't designed with our mobility in mind. Everything's either very small, close quarters and linear which limits the number of positioning opportunities for enemies and makes reaching them entirely effortless or big open environments which, in reality, leads to the same experience but it just takes longer. No tileset is free from guilt in this respect, but some are better than others. Jupiter has some stand-out areas, and not just the explicitly parkour-themed ones either. The hanger and reactor tiles have big open areas that allow you to naturally control your range of engagement and has multiple angles of attack for both you and to a lesser extent, the enemies. The Ceres asteroid mines are littered with catwalks and pitfalls as well. But even then enemies will only really attack you from the main floor in both cases, and there's far too many tilesets and tiles which only have that one level.

Warframe is a game extremely well suited to vertical map design and airborne encounters. It provides mostly horizontal maps and grounded encounters. I'd argue this is the big disconnect that causes bullet jumping to be so OP.

[(NSW)Greybones]

40 minutes ago, SampleText_vich said:

No need to apologize, i enjoy it.

I really like the ledge grabs, when the warframe makes a sick flip on the ground. Gives you a room to breath if you did the jump bad.

 

About the AI. I don't see a way to make AI better (and i think DE too, so i dont rant about it really and encourage others to bring alternatives on the table), but it would have been cool if they could speed up if you move too fast. From the walking speed to animations. They tend to sit behind covers and move out of them only when you already past the room. Why not make them shoot you when they're in the cover and see you, for example? So basically all i really want is at least to make some testing session with community, so the response won't be harsh. They rarely used the test servers. Like 3 times or something? Just messing around with enemy settings can yield some good results. Though at this points its like im speaking with DE, a really awkward post. 

 

Also there's the easiest solution: stamina bar for bullet jumping. I understand that everyone will hate it, but it will add some depth into using this ability. Traverse or evade bullets in the next room? Will you even make the jump right, what if running and jumping is more efficient?

 

Fair idea about the speeding up and taking more shots from behind cover. I reckon it could even be easily disguised; I think most people at the moment barely notice the animations and movement speed of enemies when they’re zipping from point A to point B. Of course, for those of us who rock the largest of health pools, we’ll need to choose to limit that to be threatened in the first place.

The stamina bar’s an interesting one; I’d wondered as well about some sort of stamina, and while I don’t consider it the most graceful solution, it would limit our movement capacity and may make areas less of a blur that’s remembered as “That run where I didn’t get my thing” and maybe more “That run where I got surrounded and had to navigate through the vents to get away (because stamina)”. I’d support it 👍 

Do you reckon that it’d be important that things like (example) drop rates be adjusted according to a less-frantic Warframe experience? Chasing the destination as fast and efficiently as possible is a powerful draw (I know all parts of that), and I expect those who are still doing it would hate the idea of not being able to fly through for multiple attempts, but I wonder if players might be placated by increased frequency of rewards if the runs are going to take longer.

 

As an aside, I do hate the thought of telling people how to play to the point that merely suggesting that an alternative is enforced makes me uncomfortable.

Having said that, after seeing the amount of people who are experiencing self-inflicted burnout and knowing first hand how powerful the draw of “Get The Thing and Then I’ll Have Fun” is, I do think it’d be for the best if we were slowed down a little. I know from experience that accepting that I won’t find everything in this game by myself, and thus have no need to rush it, has helped me enjoy the game so much more.

Anyways!! This post has gotten long-winded enough. I definitely got more to say (don’t we all?), but I cede the floor to others :P

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

I would argue that the map design does not fit bullet jumping and high mobility gameplay very well, and that's what's causing a good chunk of the problem. Another is objective and enemy design, but maps are important.

Consider this - Bullet Jumping is basically rocket jumping, right? Big boost of momentum in one direction. Now, also consider how often Warframe maps put you in a small, low ceiling corridor or an area with wide open spaces and clear A-B sightlines and pathways with no gaps in the floor, walls, buildings or other obstacles. How often are there platforms or ledges to jump onto and how often do the enemies make use of them? And when they are there, how often are they just a single jump away?

 

What I'm saying is that bullet jumping is so effective because the maps aren't designed with our mobility in mind. Everything's either very small, close quarters and linear which limits the number of positioning opportunities for enemies and makes reaching them entirely effortless or big open environments which, in reality, leads to the same experience but it just takes longer. No tileset is free from guilt in this respect, but some are better than others. Jupiter has some stand-out areas, and not just the explicitly parkour-themed ones either. The hanger and reactor tiles have big open areas that allow you to naturally control your range of engagement and has multiple angles of attack for both you and to a lesser extent, the enemies. The Ceres asteroid mines are littered with catwalks and pitfalls as well. But even then enemies will only really attack you from the main floor in both cases, and there's far too many tilesets and tiles which only have that one level.

Warframe is a game extremely well suited to vertical map design and airborne encounters. It provides mostly horizontal maps and grounded encounters. I'd argue this is the big disconnect that causes bullet jumping to be so OP.

Lot of facts in this post. I do want to point out that along corridors for most tiles that aren’t the Corpus Ship, there’s all these little crates or whatever for enemies to hide behind that I end up using to hide behind as well. Personally, it adds to the pleasant contrast when I move from cramped hallways where I was trading gunfire to open spaces where I can move to my heart’s content (mostly in Jupiter reworked to include Parkour 2.0, mind). Enemies are admittedly dead easy to get to with a bullet jump, but comfortably challenging via wall-climbing even in older maps (in my opinion, mind).

Thinking on your claim that most enemy positioning is on one plane, I think I see your point. With all the verticality, it’s a wonder they’re not all over the high ground as well as the low ground, right?

If so, I wonder if it’d start getting too hectic, being shot from all directions without respite. Even now I sometimes desperately need a quite place to recharge my shields and it’s a struggle to find it. Those flying jetpack Corpus help make it tough 👍. Hmm, but I am curious as to what it’d look and play like.

Do you reckon that the Jupiter and Corpus Shop reworks would look different if Bullet Jump had either not existed or had been limited in some way when they were designing them?

edit: Argh, I ceded the floor to myself! I gotta stop wanting to talk so much about this stuff in someone else’s topic 😑

[Shadowbladedeathkiller]

I only play this game for the power fantasy, so I hope one day DE lets us move straight through walls (void powers) so we can get to the objective even faster.

[SampleText_vich]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I would argue that the map design does not fit bullet jumping and high mobility gameplay very well, and that's what's causing a good chunk of the problem. Another is objective and enemy design, but maps are important.

Consider this - Bullet Jumping is basically rocket jumping, right? Big boost of momentum in one direction. Now, also consider how often Warframe maps put you in a small, low ceiling corridor or an area with wide open spaces and clear A-B sightlines and pathways with no gaps in the floor, walls, buildings or other obstacles. How often are there platforms or ledges to jump onto and how often do the enemies make use of them? And when they are there, how often are they just a single jump away?

 

What I'm saying is that bullet jumping is so effective because the maps aren't designed with our mobility in mind. Everything's either very small, close quarters and linear which limits the number of positioning opportunities for enemies and makes reaching them entirely effortless or big open environments which, in reality, leads to the same experience but it just takes longer. No tileset is free from guilt in this respect, but some are better than others. Jupiter has some stand-out areas, and not just the explicitly parkour-themed ones either. The hanger and reactor tiles have big open areas that allow you to naturally control your range of engagement and has multiple angles of attack for both you and to a lesser extent, the enemies. The Ceres asteroid mines are littered with catwalks and pitfalls as well. But even then enemies will only really attack you from the main floor in both cases, and there's far too many tilesets and tiles which only have that one level.

Warframe is a game extremely well suited to vertical map design and airborne encounters. It provides mostly horizontal maps and grounded encounters. I'd argue this is the big disconnect that causes bullet jumping to be so OP.

thats what i was saying, and i kinda agree with you, but i still mostly stand for the maps. 

Though your idea is really interesting... If you hold S in air and use melee you attack floating in DMC style...  What if we get more vertical maps with more flying enemies?

[SampleText_vich]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Fair idea about the speeding up and taking more shots from behind cover. I reckon it could even be easily disguised; I think most people at the moment barely notice the animations and movement speed of enemies when they’re zipping from point A to point B. Of course, for those of us who rock the largest of health pools, we’ll need to choose to limit that to be threatened in the first place.

The stamina bar’s an interesting one; I’d wondered as well about some sort of stamina, and while I don’t consider it the most graceful solution, it would limit our movement capacity and may make areas less of a blur that’s remembered as “That run where I didn’t get my thing” and maybe more “That run where I got surrounded and had to navigate through the vents to get away (because stamina)”. I’d support it 👍 

Do you reckon that it’d be important that things like (example) drop rates be adjusted according to a less-frantic Warframe experience? Chasing the destination as fast and efficiently as possible is a powerful draw (I know all parts of that), and I expect those who are still doing it would hate the idea of not being able to fly through for multiple attempts, but I wonder if players might be placated by increased frequency of rewards if the runs are going to take longer.

 

As an aside, I do hate the thought of telling people how to play to the point that merely suggesting that an alternative is enforced makes me uncomfortable.

Having said that, after seeing the amount of people who are experiencing self-inflicted burnout and knowing first hand how powerful the draw of “Get The Thing and Then I’ll Have Fun” is, I do think it’d be for the best if we were slowed down a little. I know from experience that accepting that I won’t find everything in this game by myself, and thus have no need to rush it, has helped me enjoy the game so much more.

Anyways!! This post has gotten long-winded enough. I definitely got more to say (don’t we all?), but I cede the floor to others :P

i was thinking about drop rates. If after hypothetical movement rework we will get slower, DE will need to record the difference between average completion times and adjust the drop rates. Though the amount of completions still better then higher drop rate. 

[DaMasque]

Just make it a souls-like and we'll have every gaming genre.

Maybe this is a overused joke.. maybe not... but I do sense a lot of dying if we're going in basically naked.

[Institute-Marksman]

Walking up a set of stairs isn't more challenging than omegajumping to the top, it just takes more time. Warframe has thrived because it does not shoehorn you into a certain playstyle - how and what you play is entirely up to you.  Suggesting an underdeveloped concept should be used to remove a bunch of established abilities and mechanics just to cater to a specific playstyle is definitely shoehorning and therefore not ok.

[Loza03]

55 minutes ago, Institute-Marksman said:

Walking up a set of stairs isn't more challenging than omegajumping to the top, it just takes more time. Warframe has thrived because it does not shoehorn you into a certain playstyle - how and what you play is entirely up to you.  Suggesting an underdeveloped concept should be used to remove a bunch of established abilities and mechanics just to cater to a specific playstyle is definitely shoehorning and therefore not ok.

True. However, there's facets to this you've not acknowledged. Mainly, in a lot of high-mobility games, there's often good reasons to use the stairs, and good reasons not to. They make for alternate paths, and whilst stairs leave you a sitting duck in two directions, they're also frequently innately cover in other directions. This means that, in an evironment where the option exists to be both, and there's good reasons to pick either option, then whilst neither is fundamentally more challenging, then there's more meaningful choice in the moment-to-moment gameplay because now there's two different ways to ascend to a higher level with different pros and cons. Bullet jump = faster, stairs = safer.

 

5 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Lot of facts in this post. I do want to point out that along corridors for most tiles that aren’t the Corpus Ship, there’s all these little crates or whatever for enemies to hide behind that I end up using to hide behind as well. Personally, it adds to the pleasant contrast when I move from cramped hallways where I was trading gunfire to open spaces where I can move to my heart’s content (mostly in Jupiter reworked to include Parkour 2.0, mind). Enemies are admittedly dead easy to get to with a bullet jump, but comfortably challenging via wall-climbing even in older maps (in my opinion, mind).

Thinking on your claim that most enemy positioning is on one plane, I think I see your point. With all the verticality, it’s a wonder they’re not all over the high ground as well as the low ground, right?

If so, I wonder if it’d start getting too hectic, being shot from all directions without respite. Even now I sometimes desperately need a quite place to recharge my shields and it’s a struggle to find it. Those flying jetpack Corpus help make it tough 👍. Hmm, but I am curious as to what it’d look and play like.

Do you reckon that the Jupiter and Corpus Shop reworks would look different if Bullet Jump had either not existed or had been limited in some way when they were designing them?

edit: Argh, I ceded the floor to myself! I gotta stop wanting to talk so much about this stuff in someone else’s topic 😑

Having played a lot of Titanfall 2 and Monster Hunter Rise lately (two games with enhanced mobility but markedly different approaches), I can say that the quiet places can be achieved with vents or little nooks, or the aforementioned stairways. 3D games need 3D cover after all.

[(NSW)Greybones]

7 hours ago, DaMasque said:

Just make it a souls-like and we'll have every gaming genre.

Maybe this is a overused joke.. maybe not... but I do sense a lot of dying if we're going in basically naked.

I do love the Souls games, though personally I’m not sure what similarities there might be aside from dodgeable attacks 🤔 

Out of clarity’s sake, what are you referring to when you say “Going in basically naked”? I may have missed something in the topic’s conversation thread

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

8 hours ago, DaMasque said:

Just make it a souls-like and we'll have every gaming genre.

Maybe this is a overused joke.. maybe not... but I do sense a lot of dying if we're going in basically naked.

We do not have MOBA and Battle Royale

[DaMasque]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I do love the Souls games, though personally I’m not sure what similarities there might be aside from dodgeable attacks 🤔 

Out of clarity’s sake, what are you referring to when you say “Going in basically naked”? I may have missed something in the topic’s conversation thread

Did you watch the Duviri Paradox trailer? 

Spoiler

basically adult tenno with no powers. 

 

[DaMasque]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

We do not have MOBA and Battle Royale

Ok you got me there; excluding PvP. 

[TARINunit9]

On 2021-05-06 at 3:22 PM, SampleText_vich said:

LA lot of people will disagree, but bullet jumping made the game worse. I like it too, but it's inclusion sacrifices challenge. You can jump past anything and completely ignore pre-parkour 2.0 tiles.

So. In the trailer our mature operator can't use void abilities (minus void dash) and uses guns, fighting against ancient enemies, that a normal human can take on. Literally a perfect set up for the old style combat.

Void Dash is way stronger than anything Bullet Jump can do. You wanna talk about skipping challenges, Void Dash is faster, goes higher, and invincible

[SampleText_vich]

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Void Dash is way stronger than anything Bullet Jump can do. You wanna talk about skipping challenges, Void Dash is faster, goes higher, and invincible

void dash is limited, though. 

[Soy77]

I don't blame you guys, and perfectly understand where you're coming. to stop and smell the roses every once in a while. 

But seriously now... DE has done a lot of stupid S#&$s in warframe's lifetime, but sidelining bullet jumping will be their worst mistake ever.

Bullet jumping has gave players sense of empowerment never seen before in videogames. You don't need to acquire it, you're born with one of the most powerful aspect of a warframe. And it has define warframe as a videogame.

If you think I'm wrong, just look at people who likes necramechs. They got sidelined because people just want more warframe. Or people who likes railjack. It becomes taxi because people just want more warframe. Archwings? They're merely transport now because people just want to spend time in their warframes. Kdrives? they said "lol we're better off bullet jumping, thank you".

I get where you guys are coming from. But even if you're right and at one point duviri was planned to be an old style combat, by now DE must've realized that it's impossible to take off the core warframe from this game, which involves bullet jumping as a huge part of it.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, SampleText_vich said:

void dash is limited, though. 

How on any level other than "well tehcnically..."? I dash into a crowd, start blasting my Amp, and by the time any of them are ready to shoot back I'm fully charged again

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, Soy77 said:

I don't blame you guys, and perfectly understand where you're coming. to stop and smell the roses every once in a while. 

But seriously now... DE has done a lot of stupid S#&$s in warframe's lifetime, but sidelining bullet jumping will be their worst mistake ever.

Bullet jumping has gave players sense of empowerment never seen before in videogames. You don't need to acquire it, you're born with one of the most powerful aspect of a warframe. And it has define warframe as a videogame.

If you think I'm wrong, just look at people who likes necramechs. They got sidelined because people just want more warframe. Or people who likes railjack. It becomes taxi because people just want more warframe. Archwings? They're merely transport now because people just want to spend time in their warframes. Kdrives? they said "lol we're better off bullet jumping, thank you".

I get where you guys are coming from. But even if you're right and at one point duviri was planned to be an old style combat, by now DE must've realized that it's impossible to take off the core warframe from this game, which involves bullet jumping as a huge part of it.

You make a fair point. Nearly word-for-word a lot of what you’ve said has crossed my mind at some point in time.

Regarding the content that people don’t choose to engage with, you’re right that in cases like that, they’d rather be a Warframe than, say, drive a mech or fight in space combat.

Looking at it from DE’s perspective, though; there’s been a lot of effort to expand the game beyond what it started as. It started as Warframes, sure, and I’ve seen arguments that “It’s in the name!” when people don’t like how there’s all this extra content getting effort directed to it, but ultimately, it sure seems that the vision of the creators of the game is to flesh out their universe over the course of 8 years and counting, and that Warframes are a part of it.

We (you and I) are talking about choosing to play Warframes over anything else, though, and that bullet jumping is a huge part of it. Hey, no judgement from me, mind; I gear myself so that fights are tough while many are gearing themselves for Maximum Overkill, and I think we can live side-by-side since we have the choice to do so.

I think it’s worth wondering “Why prefer Warframes? (and in some cases only Warframes)”.

There’s myriad of reasons. Okay, and what would happen if (hypothetically), bullet jumping is removed or limited in some way? How many of those reasons would it impact?

I feel like to think of that, additionally “What is bulletjumping used for?” should be asked. Is it used to blaze through content as fast as possible, and perhaps a contributing factor of why some people don’t like the other content is because they can’t go through it as if it was all of two loading screens?

I know what I used Bullet Jumping for, but what do most other players do with it? And is it what’s defined Warframe as a videogame?