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#SaveGas


VhwatGoes

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Gas is currently the weakest element in the game. Period (Edit: Seriously, even Blast has more favourable damage resists!! Also, please read the post, Gas has major handicaps that I outline!) This fact is one reason why elemental diversity is nearly non-existent, leaving Viral and Slash to be the end-all of damage types against strong enemies. If you need another damage element, it's Heat. Free 50% armor reduction, infinite duration, very favourable resistances and even compatable with Viral by modding.

Brief History: Prior to Warframe Revised, Gas damage competed with Corrosive and Viral in the trifecta of powerful toxin-based elements. Corrosive was the common armor solution, Viral was not as common but was still viable on Slash-based weapons and generally an ok health solution, and gas was the ultimate damage-over-time that was the salvation of many non-crit status weapons. It was so powerful that it didn't even need armor reduction in many cases.

Old Gas formula: Modded Damage x (0.5 x Modded Toxin x (1 + Faction Damage))^2 x 8 ticks

Current Gas formula: Modded Damage x (0.5) x (1 + Faction Damage) x 6 ticks

See what's missing? The entire scaling part that every single damage element has.

No matter what elements you mod onto your weapon, Gas will not scale with those elemental mods. The Gas element is literally a product of two Damage-over-time elements: Toxin and Heat. The toxin proc alone does more damage than adding heat to form gas, making Gas an extremely low-value element to ever mod.

It doesn't stop there.

Gas's gimmick is that it creates an area of damage. This characteristic was arguably too strong in old gas as damage was just absurdly exponential in crowds, however the primary element electricity also produces an area of damage.

  • Electricity does scale with electricity mods.
  • Electricity uses less mods, as it does not combine two elements.
  • Electricity is moddable alongside Viral.
  • Electricity is just as strong against Fossilized health, the only difficult infested (were gas is supposed to excel).
  • Electricity can stack beyond 10 procs.

Oh yeah, that last one. Gas's area grows up to 6 meters from 3 meters at 10 procs. Except at 10 procs, adding more gas doesn't add more damage over time. The Damage-over-Time caps at 10 stacks, meaning you never want to be capping this effect. If you use Gas with Lavos' Catalyze creating a single powerful Gas proc, this can be prematurely removed by adding 10 more procs!

 

So what can be done to save this element? It:

  • Can't be modded with Viral or Corrosive.
  • Doesn't scale with elemental mods like all other damage elements.
  • Has high modding requirements necessitating two elements (that individually are far stronger), while all other Damage-over-time elements only use one.
  • Caps at 10 procs, overriding oldest procs.

I have two proposals to solve Gas.

Solution One:

  • Area no longer grows with additional procs, fixed at 3m. Still Lingers after targets die (the only time to ever consider status duration mods).
  • Scale damage with elements: Modded Damage x (0.5 x Modded Toxin x Modded Heat) x (1 + Faction Damage) x 6 ticks
  • Damage no longer caps at 10 procs, instead is uncapped like all other status damage.

Gas is the product of two damage-over-time effects (still weaker to single-targets versus solo Heat). This damage should at least multiply. This is weaker modding-wise than original gas as it no longer scales off a single element but instead two, and gives low-crit status weapons a valuable modding option. The modding demand is too great for crit weapons to take full advantage, equalizing the field between critical and non-critical weapons once again.

Solution Two:

  • Area no longer scales with additional procs, starts at 3m. Still Lingers after targets die.
    • Area instead scales with modded heat, adding 1 meter to the radius for every +30% Heat.
    • Radial fall-off from explosion weapons apply to their gas procs. Standard weapons have no falloff.
  • Scale damage with elements: Modded Damage x (0.5 x Modded Toxin) x (1 + Faction Damage) x 6 ticks
  • Damage no longer caps at 10 procs, instead is uncapped like all other status damage.

Similar to solution one, Gas scales in a creative way from both Toxin and Heat. High modding demands, but can tailor the element to focus on high area or high damage or both for non-crit weapons, further increasing modding diversity and lending more player preference to mods and missions. This option equalizes the field between single-target weapons and the increasingly popular explosion/chaining weapons due to the proposed radial-falloff penalty (otherwise Ogris/Bramma would be too strong, there must be balance!).

 

The best part? These still aren't as strong as Viral+Slash. That is an armor problem as it's heart, but that's not for today. Today I'm upset that Gas caps. 

Expand status diversity, modding creativity, player choices. #SaveGas

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I'd think the Blast or Mag damage would be worse than Gas. the Gas proc does a pretty good job with Crowd Control, particularly where it matters (I speak of infested cuz they wither away before Gas Damage)

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I feel magnetic is actually the worst. Magnetic is only good against Corpus who already go down easily with viral.

 

Gas is in a similar boat but it can at least pair well with certain warframes. Such as Zephyr and her tornadoes, which ends up being the best element for them.

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I think some people are getting hung up on my opening sentence. You can debate it, but it's true. Even if it wasn't, Gas sucks. It needs to be improved.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

I'd say blast is the worst, gas at least has use

I would actually argue Blast has more use than gas. Like radiation, Blast is used to counter certain bosses as a damage type. These bosses include Thumpers, Vay Hek, and the Wolf of Saturn Six. Gas has the Juggernauts and Zealoid Prelate, but in general the only strong infested enemies are Ancients and a variety of Deimos enemies, which are instead fossilized and not weak to gas and is on-par with Electricity. Blast as a general damage type is also far more neutral than Gas, on average just dealing more damage than gas. Fossilized is 1.5x weak to Blast.

People also take Blast's proc for granted because it is unnoticeable and poorly understood. Blast is very common, and generally the default damage type on explosive weapons. Ogris, Tonkor, Bramma, Zarr, Corinth, Glaive, Redeemer. The accuracy reduction is not like the accuracy penalty on Heavy Caliber, reduced enemy accuracy is their absolute chance to hit. I would put this almost on par with cold in terms of a defensive viability. It can stack additively with evasion for up to 100% chance to avoid projectiles (minus homing attacks eg, Bombard) where you will avoid all ranged attacks.

29 minutes ago, WH1735S0W said:

I feel magnetic is actually the worst. Magnetic is only good against Corpus who already go down easily with viral.

Yes, infested also go down easily to viral, even to slash, and heat! Magnetic indeed is extremely weak to the common Alloy armor type, but unlike gas, does excel against it's countered faction. As a regular Lavos player, Magnetic is my opening element on all abilities when versing Corpus. If shields were remotely as difficult as armor, Magnetic would have much greater viability. It doesn't help that Viral is just as good and better against everything else.

The go-to elements to counter infested are not gas, they are instead Viral for damage or Radiation for cancelling ancient auras, or if you're on Deimos: Corrosive + Heat because now they have armor too and are immune to viral and are all fossilized.

1 hour ago, Spoldozer said:

I'd think the Blast or Mag damage would be worse than Gas. the Gas proc does a pretty good job with Crowd Control, particularly where it matters (I speak of infested cuz they wither away before Gas Damage)

Yes but the enemies you're killing with gas will fall over to literally any damage. I suggest giving electricity a try and compare, it can be much more than 1.75x stronger vs gas, thanks to actual proc scaling (thus gas losing it's edge at countering infested).

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We can go about buffing elements all we want but it doesn't solve the actual underlying issue of how universal the effects of Corrosive, Viral, Slash, and Heat are. Plus there is the issue of how damage resistances are all stacked in favor of the four meta elements.

Really the first step in solving element diversity is nerfing the meta elements properly but then the community gets their pitchforks out. Thus we'll never have progress towards fixing this as taking the buffing route either leaves elements still objectively weaker than meta ones or makes them the new meta ones and thus don't add diversity.

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Hot take, but I'm of the opinion that we have too many damage/health types and that is a good chunk of the balance issues.

That is why by-and-long the Grineer are still the benchmark of how effective damage is, because anything that can obliterate a high level Grineer can likely do the same to an enemy of equal or higher level from the other two factions (bar a few exceptions).

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2 hours ago, Aldain said:

Hot take, but I'm of the opinion that we have too many damage/health types and that is a good chunk of the balance issues.

That is why by-and-long the Grineer are still the benchmark of how effective damage is, because anything that can obliterate a high level Grineer can likely do the same to an enemy of equal or higher level from the other two factions (bar a few exceptions).

This is a good point. 

How do you balance the umpteen damage types we have right now to the point they are all at least on a somewhat similar level to each other, without them straight up copying each other (when it comes to coding behind the scenes)? They can get as creative as they want. but with only 3 major factions (plus one that has gated resistance to everything), how are we supposed to have like 14 damage types that are all useful for something in their own way? It's a crazy task to assign to anyone, and it's hardly realistic. 

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I agree Gas is in a pretty poor state ,

I thought maybe with some enemies on the drift being immune to viral effects gas would be more effective - nope , they have armor and so corrosive works better and being open world the enemies rarely converge to take advantage of the AOE.

Magnetic still has its use on high level corpus (maybe if toxin didnt bypass shields , only the procs did ,there would be more builds with magnetic in them)

Blast i think is just as bad if not worse off than gas , i never consider using blast unless there is an enemy that is immune to every other element in the game (yet to encounter).

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1 minute ago, trst said:

We can go about buffing elements all we want but it doesn't solve the actual underlying issue of how universal the effects of Corrosive, Viral, Slash, and Heat are. Plus there is the issue of how damage resistances are all stacked in favor of the four meta elements.

Really the first step in solving element diversity is nerfing the meta elements properly but then the community gets their pitchforks out. Thus we'll never have progress towards fixing this as taking the buffing route either leaves elements still objectively weaker than meta ones or makes them the new meta ones and thus don't add diversity.

Indeed. Viral and Slash are far too top-heavy. Viral was strong enough previously. The 4x buff was overkill. Slash, the hp-counter, has instead become the defacto armor counter instead. 

Corrosive doesn't hold a candle to slash.

Heat is simply the strongest primary element with it's special mechanics on top of ideal resists and can even be paired with Viral or Corrosive.

Gas not only can't be paired with any of the 3 remotely strong elements, but it's in it's own dumpster even if it could.

I also don't want to end up with rock-paper-scissors choices, but it's the least they could do. I like to use Borderlands elements as an example of a relatively balanced system,

ZDwoWcm.png

Look at Shock. It is the shield counter. It is neutral across the board, while countering the somewhat rare shields. Depending on some enemy designs too, shields can be a majority of their total life. Meanwhile, Magnetic is absolutely garbage against the most common armor type: Alloy.

Slag is also neutral, because it's also a massive damage amp for non-slag. Meanwhile Viral is not only a massive damage amp vs everything, but it's often the strongest damage type alone! See 1.75x to cloned flesh.

Fire is strong vs health because health is overwhelmingly the most common. However, it's weak against everything else. Meanwhile Heat is strong vs most health, and neutral vs everything else on top of being the strongest damage-over-time mechanically. The pairing options make it a clear choice. Heat was overbuffed with the ember rework.

Corrosive is just the anti-armor damage. We have two, Warframe's Corrosive and Slash. Slash is not necessarily moddable, it's more like an innate perk exclusive to certain weapons, but it is overwhelmingly stronger than corrosive at all levels (generally 50+).

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb trst:

We can go about buffing elements all we want but it doesn't solve the actual underlying issue of how universal the effects of Corrosive, Viral, Slash, and Heat are. Plus there is the issue of how damage resistances are all stacked in favor of the four meta elements.

Really the first step in solving element diversity is nerfing the meta elements properly but then the community gets their pitchforks out. Thus we'll never have progress towards fixing this as taking the buffing route either leaves elements still objectively weaker than meta ones or makes them the new meta ones and thus don't add diversity.

Honestly, the last thing I want is to change my setup every time I change the faction I go against. What the elements need is universal procs that are good against everything, but with different effects, like:

1. Gas=AOE damage

2. Corrosive = armor stack

3. Fire = Stagger

4. Cold = Slow

and so on (those are not very good examples and certainly not balanced, I just pulled them out of my head in 5 seconds). Problem is though, there are too many elements and not enough useful proc effects. And in the end, dmg will most likely dominate.

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10 hours ago, VhwatGoes said:

Gas is currently the weakest element in the game. Period.

Blast Damage says hi.

IMO gas would work best if the proc resulted in a lingering AoE cloud at the point of impact, so not only would be able to deal toxin damage over time, but also act as a form of area denial: if you mow down a bunch of enemies on a narrow bridge with a gas weapon for example, it would effectively create a Gas wall to further impede enemy attacks. it would be well suited to weapons with both a high rate of fire and a high status chance.

meanwhile explosive blasts - the thing that usually can kill anything in other games - are incredibly weak here in warframe. 

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They could have fix gas easily if they let elemental mods takes effect in the DoT damage calculations. We can also include a gimmick here too, as we all know clouds can disrupt our vision, why not apply that to Gas? I suggest that gas clouds disrupt enemy vision that enters it, causing them to lose their sight of you, which means they will stop firing their weapons thinking of where you went. We can also use another gimmick, which is enemies are doing a unique coughing animations, stunning them in place.

I also would like to DE to remove gas damage resistance from flesh and cloned flesh, because it doesn't make sense. Toxic gas is meant for organic beings. Instead, make robotic, alloy armor, and ferrite armor resists it because it makes sense.

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Personally I think Gas should be a mainstay in status builds, and that the gas clouds should be able to apply any status effects on the weapon per tick.

I mean, gas already applies toxin, so it’s not like it would be a stretch to allow it to apply other things.

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12 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I was so confused by the title that I forgot Has was one of the Elements in Warframe....

This honestly, my first thought was "what? save a gas giant? or resource? what gas resource is there? is the gas economy inefficient?", only figured it out once I started reading the post

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I dunno why I thought of this old picture I had on my computer when I read the title, if this character had saved his gas he'd be alive. :tongue:

XwO6wNr.jpg

 

Seriously though I don't know why they broke/nerf'd gas so much, it has only made us move onto other elements to bypass shields.

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