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#SaveGas


VhwatGoes
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Honestly, I used to care about elements being "balanced", because ideally each choice in a game should be viable.  But over time, I've stepped back and realized it doesn't matter.  It's something I want to see solved, but it doesn't need to be solved.  And in terms of things I'd like to see addressed in Warframe, this is one I can definitely live without.

There will always be something that is stronger than something else, or in the case of Gas, something that has fewer use cases.  If Gas isn't optimal for your use case, don't use it.  We're not going to arrive at a point where every element is balanced as part of the meta, and I've realized that I'm totally fine with that because the game has always played just fine without that level of balance.

That's just like, my opinion, though.

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14 hours ago, VhwatGoes said:
  • Scale damage with elements: Modded Damage x (0.5 x Modded Toxin x Modded Heat) x (1 + Faction Damage) x 6 ticks
  • Damage no longer caps at 10 procs, instead is uncapped like all other status damage.

These are necessary changes, but the real problem is an entirely different one:

DE doesn't know what they are doing. This is not an exaggeration, but the plain obvious truth. The current implementation of Gas could not have been possible otherwise. Any player could look at the formula and instantly tell that it is inacceptable - even worse; We told DE, instantly after the patch, that the formula was broken and inacceptable, yet they seem content with it.

They don't know what they are doing, and they think they know better than us.

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vor 51 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Unstar:

There will always be something that is stronger than something else, or in the case of Gas, something that has fewer use cases.  If Gas isn't optimal for your use case, don't use it.  We're not going to arrive at a point where every element is balanced as part of the meta

Nirvana fallacy.

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13 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

DE doesn't know what they are doing. This is not an exaggeration, but the plain obvious truth. The current implementation of Gas could not have been possible otherwise. Any player could look at the formula and instantly tell that it is inacceptable - even worse; We told DE, instantly after the patch, that the formula was broken and inacceptable, yet they seem content with it.

They don't know what they are doing, and they think they know better than us.

It's true. That's why it's good to make suggestions that they can just steal after doing the thinking for them. It's easy to say "what is DE doing??" but straight complaints aren't enough. Basically, be constructive, and cross your fingers. The more attention something like this gets, the more chance it has of becoming reality, as unlikely as it may seem sometimes ^^.

32 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Honestly, I used to care about elements being "balanced", because ideally each choice in a game should be viable.  But over time, I've stepped back and realized it doesn't matter.  It's something I want to see solved, but it doesn't need to be solved.  And in terms of things I'd like to see addressed in Warframe, this is one I can definitely live without.

I feel you. Even my suggestions would not widely alter the meta, but that's more reason why I think it's doable. I'm a player that likes to experiment with Warframe's modding system and the different options available to me. There are so many mechanics to the status system, but outside of Lavos, that all boils down to Viral+Heat/Slash. Yes the problem is larger than just Gas, but Gas deserves to be at least on par with Toxin/Heat/Electric. It currently has near-zero viability.

2 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

Seriously though I don't know why they broke/nerf'd gas so much, it has only made us move onto other elements to bypass shields.

Right?! Even aside from the shield bypass, it's not even on par with Toxin/Heat/Electric mechanically. I feels like they wanted it to be forgotten, in the process turning status into a 1-dimensional Viral system.

4 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Personally I think Gas should be a mainstay in status builds, and that the gas clouds should be able to apply any status effects on the weapon per tick.

I mean, gas already applies toxin, so it’s not like it would be a stretch to allow it to apply other things.

It's an interesting idea. I've seen similar suggestions, making gas some kind of mini 'mecha (set bonus)' effect that spreads status. Honestly, that's a better idea for blast! If Gas were to share effects in an area, it would be limited to Electric, Cold, and Magnetic, the only elements moddable alongside Gas itself. It doesn't really make sense to spread physical effects either (But on blast it totally would be!).

Current gas does not apply toxin, it's truly gas damage. This is probably the reason why it doesn't scale as I imagine the scaling was tied to the toxin properties, and it was forgotten in the change (but they forgot about gas entirely). 

5 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

They could have fix gas easily if they let elemental mods takes effect in the DoT damage calculations. We can also include a gimmick here too, as we all know clouds can disrupt our vision, why not apply that to Gas? I suggest that gas clouds disrupt enemy vision that enters it, causing them to lose their sight of you, which means they will stop firing their weapons thinking of where you went. We can also use another gimmick, which is enemies are doing a unique coughing animations, stunning them in place.

I also would like to DE to remove gas damage resistance from flesh and cloned flesh, because it doesn't make sense. Toxic gas is meant for organic beings. Instead, make robotic, alloy armor, and ferrite armor resists it because it makes sense.

A stun would be nice. That's a characteristic of Heat that is lost in forming Gas which is a real factor in reducing the value of Gas, but I think it can make up in other ways. The vision reduction is basically what Blast is supposed to do now xd, which people have raised as being a S#&$ element (it's not wrong, but it's not worse).

I can only speculate on why the Gas resists exists. It's clearly intended on the surface to be a rock-paper-scissors counter to infested, but it utterly fails in comparison to elements like even Electric and Heat for a number of reasons I list in the OP. I think making up for Gas' scaling will negate the poor resists on Grineer and Corpus with on-par or better raw damage and mechanics (lingering cloud) compared to Electric (weak to Alloy) and maybe even Heat in certain situations. But for now, resists would not be the first thing I touch as Gas is mechanically crippled right now.

5 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

IMO gas would work best if the proc resulted in a lingering AoE cloud at the point of impact, so not only would be able to deal toxin damage over time, but also act as a form of area denial: if you mow down a bunch of enemies on a narrow bridge with a gas weapon for example, it would effectively create a Gas wall to further impede enemy attacks. it would be well suited to weapons with both a high rate of fire and a high status chance.

meanwhile explosive blasts - the thing that usually can kill anything in other games - are incredibly weak here in warframe. 

A lingering AoE at point of impact (assuming you're including world surfaces) would be quite unique. I think that's balanced. High fire rate weapons would only be able to cause large areas of denial (They might even mod for status duration!!! That would be wonderful!!) at the cost of being low damage per bullet/proc.

Blast does need help. Honestly, I think a lot of people would just be happy with the old radial knockdown. Even that was still weak in the past because Blast was the pairing with the extremely common Corrosive. I think Blast should just be a generally above-average damage type with more +25% resist bonuses, and given back it's old radial knockdown. That would be more than enough imo. The weird obstacle to that is DE's gonna want to make it scale somehow to 10 procs. Easy way to do that: Keep accuracy penalty as-is, add AoE-knockdown like how electric and heat have their own stuns.

10 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

Honestly, the last thing I want is to change my setup every time I change the faction I go against. What the elements need is universal procs that are good against everything, but with different effects

That's understandable. I too don't wish for a rock-paper-scissors scenario. The idea for Gas is just to bring it on-par with other damage-over-time effects (minus slash) so that it can be generally competent against all factions held up by superior damage-over-time mechanics as a secondary damage-over-time element (combining two primary DoT elements). Currently, it is inferior to Electric in every way, and you don't exactly see people spamming Electricity procs to go along with Viral. That's how low Gas currently is on the elemental ladder.

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26 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Nirvana fallacy.

Thanks for teaching me about this fallacy, it was a cool read.  But honestly, I'm not sure if it applies here?  If it does, perhaps you could explain to me why.  Because the purpose of this individual post seems to be to get Gas to a place where it is more balanced, with Gas being the specific subject of the post because the author views it as the weakest (and hence in the most need of balancing).  I don't think it's an unsafe assumption to interpret that the author isn't advocating for this just because they have isolated Gas from the rest of the meta and want to strengthen it and it alone, but rather that Gas would be step 1 in a broader overall goal to achieve a better balance.  But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, and if that's the case, please help me out ^^

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3 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Because the purpose of this individual post seems to be to get Gas to a place where it is more balanced, with Gas being the specific subject of the post because the author views it as the weakest (and hence in the most need of balancing).  I don't think it's an unsafe assumption to interpret that the author isn't advocating for this just because they have isolated Gas from the rest of the meta and want to strengthen it and it alone, but rather that Gas would be step 1 in a broader overall goal to achieve a better balance.  But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, and if that's the case, please help me out ^^

You are exactly right <3

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Posted (edited)
vor 28 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Unstar:

Thanks for teaching me about this fallacy, it was a cool read.  But honestly, I'm not sure if it applies here?  If it does, perhaps you could explain to me why.

 

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (PSN)Unstar:

There will always be something that is stronger than something else, or in the case of Gas, something that has fewer use cases.  If Gas isn't optimal for your use case, don't use it.  We're not going to arrive at a point where every element is balanced as part of the meta

What you posted is "perfect balance is impossible to achieve so why bother trying" and you ask how that relates to the Nirvana fallacy. I really don't know what to tell you.

Edited by Krankbert
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56 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

What you posted is "perfect balance is impossible to achieve so why bother trying" and you ask how that relates to the Nirvana fallacy. I really don't know what to tell you.

That seems like a warped and cherry-picked interpretation of my post, though.  My primary argument is that the game is great without this balance, and that I wouldn't expect the introduction of elemental balance to be too meaningful.  The reason I bring up the extreme difficulty of creating balance is that it informs the amount of effort that DE would need to exert to create and maintain this balance, which in my view colors elemental balance as "high effort low reward".  That being the case, I'm proposing that, given DE's limited resources, other problems in the game, and the need for additional content development, that putting attention towards this issue would be a very sub-optimal use of DE's time.

In other words, I did mention that perfect balance is nigh-possible, but I did not use that as the direct rationale for my take.  Hence, the fallacy is not invoked, unless you're saying it's always invalid to even bring up the reality that certain things are impossible, which I think would be not only a misinterpretation of this fallacy, but a generally unwise idea.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Unstar:

The reason I bring up the extreme difficulty of creating balance is that it informs the amount of effort that DE would need to exert to create and maintain this balance, which in my view colors elemental balance as "high effort low reward".  That being the case, I'm proposing that, given DE's limited resources, other problems in the game, and the need for additional content development, that putting attention towards this issue would be a very sub-optimal use of DE's time.

You do know that I can't read the words in your head, right? You have to write that down and post it if you want me to consider it.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

You do know that I can't read the words in your head, right? You have to write that down and post it if you want me to consider it.

I feel like that's both true but also not the whole truth, since of the words I did provide you chose to ignore the bulk of my post and cherry-picked one part of it to shoehorn it into a fallacy that it only half-filled.  But regardless, I'm glad that we've overcome our previous bump in communication.

Edited by (PSN)Unstar
typo
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Posted (edited)
vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Unstar:

since of the words I did provide you chose to ignore the bulk of my post and cherry-picked one part of it

No, I quoted one part of it. If you have some kind of mental block that prevents you from understanding my response unless your entire comment is quoted above it, feel free to right-click in your browser, click inspect and edit it in. My position on full quotes is that they're unnecessary bloat and that the kind of people who will dismiss my posts under the excuse of "hurr durr u r cherrypicking" wouldn't have given an honest response anyway.

You know, like for example how you keep insisting that your post only "half-filled" the fallacy because I "cherrypicked" and chose to ignore the part you only thought about and only wrote down two hours later.

Edited by Krankbert
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I'm fine with Fire being one of the more powerful elements. The proc looks cool, flaming enemies in wild energy-colored flames. 

They need to make gas look cool too, if they ever fix it. I think? gas just currently makes it hard to see when using certain energy colors. Should make gas, I dunno, melt dudes I guess, into puddles or something. Does gas have a cool death effect? I don't even know because hardly use it.

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How about having Gas clouds just have a chance to proc any random status effect? Maybe it could be a meager 10% additive stacking chance, so you'd need 10 stacks of Gas just to get a guaranteed additional status proc per second. I kinda think that'd be representative of the kind of chaos a toxic gas would have: causing various biological ailments, staggering, and confusion, or a chemical gas igniting and catching fire, or a corrosive gas wreaking havoc on mechanical systems. Because the pool of status effects would be so large (including IPS), the chances of you actually getting the "best" ones is pretty low.

In addition, remove any damage penalties or bonuses on Gas damage itself, and it could be like the lazy build option. I mean, it'd still probably be one of the least popular damage types, but since everyone is already running Corrosive or Viral anyways, you can at least have some... FUN and be the weird person who brings a Gas weapon and just makes it an exceptionally bad day for the wage slaves by dropping clouds of chaos on them. As of now, Gas is neither fun nor useful.

And well, Condition Overload is already kinda absurd anyways.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Krankbert said:

No, I quoted one part of it. If you have some kind of mental block that prevents you from understanding my response unless your entire comment is quoted above it, feel free to right-click in your browser, click inspect and edit it in. My position on full quotes is that they're unnecessary bloat and that the kind of people who will dismiss my posts under the excuse of "hurr durr u r cherrypicking" wouldn't have given an honest response anyway.

You know, like for example how you keep insisting that your post only "half-filled" the fallacy because I "cherrypicked" and chose to ignore the part you only thought about and only wrote down two hours later.

I'm not talking about what you did or didn't quote.  Nor am I talking about the additional information that I chose to provide later to offer additional detail and clarify my point.  What I am talking about is that you invoked a fallacy with the format "A therefore B" and that my original post contained "A" and "B" but not "A therefore B", hence my description of "half-filled".

Regardless, I'm not interested in arguing about this, so I'll simply hope this clears things up and wish you a nice weekend <3

Edited by (PSN)Unstar
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On 2021-05-07 at 3:59 AM, VhwatGoes said:

People also take Blast's proc for granted because it is unnoticeable and poorly understood. Blast is very common, and generally the default damage type on explosive weapons. Ogris, Tonkor, Bramma, Zarr, Corinth, Glaive, Redeemer. The accuracy reduction is not like the accuracy penalty on Heavy Caliber, reduced enemy accuracy is their absolute chance to hit. I would put this almost on par with cold in terms of a defensive viability. It can stack additively with evasion for up to 100% chance to avoid projectiles (minus homing attacks eg, Bombard) where you will avoid all ranged attacks.

Comparing Blast & Cold (little oftopic so in spoiler):

Spoiler


Quote

The status effect of  Blast damage is Inaccuracy. It reduces the gun accuracy of the afflicted target by 30% for 6 seconds. Melee attacks are unaffected by the proc. Subsequent procs add 5% reduced accuracy up to 75% in total after 10 stacks, with each proc having their own duration.

Quote

The status effect of  Cold damage is Freeze. It reduces the target's movement speed and fire/attack rate by 25% over 6 seconds. Subsequent procs add 5% slow up to 70% in total after 10 stacks,

- Blast is random WHILE Cold is not random. It's not 100% but 75%. 25% of hits will still hurt you a lot. With cold it's you that is "not fast enough".

- It affects all (there might be exception with status immunity or something) enemies, not only armed one.

- Effect is much stronger (visible) on Cold than Blast.

 

And what you mean by:

Quote

It can stack additively with evasion for up to 100% chance to avoid projectiles (minus homing attacks eg, Bombard) where you will avoid all ranged attacks.

I guess it's either Xaku or Carnis Set.

As for Xaku it's close to 100% but it's still not 100%.

As for Carnis set it's only 30%. I'm not sure if it would work like you described. I haven't found any info about blast vs other evasion types. I may be wrong but I guess it would add another ~6% to your evasion.

 

As for pairs of types you may go for Viral then no blast. Or you could go Corrosive but other options for status are better (Electricity for 100% enemy inaccuracy OR Heat for armor stripping).

So, in my opinion, Blast is worse than Cold.

 

On 2021-05-07 at 2:28 AM, VhwatGoes said:

Area no longer scales with additional procs, starts at 3m. Still Lingers after targets die.

  • Area instead scales with modded heat, adding 1 meter to the radius for every +30% Heat.

That would be interesting.

By "+30% heat" you mean damage? So +165% from Serration it would add 5 meters. Am I right?

 

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Why can't gas be changed to propagate whatever the attached element is.

So gas + electricity spreads an electric cloud that procs electricity status %.

Gas + magnetize spreads a cloud that drains shields.

Gas + cold spreads a gas cloud that... you get the idea!

 

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Posted (edited)

DE could intentionally make the elements rock paper scissors to the enemies, but do we REALLY want that? Do we really want to be forced to switch up elements against every faction? 

Personally, I wouldn't mind. Especially at higher levels like steel path. There should be distinct advantages for elements going up against robotics and infested. As it is now, they feel like a non factor. 

In the end, damage is still king. There's only so many ways you can convey that, and ultimately there will always be a best one. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

 

 

17 hours ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

I'm fine with Fire being one of the more powerful elements. The proc looks cool, flaming enemies in wild energy-colored flames. 

They need to make gas look cool too, if they ever fix it. I think? gas just currently makes it hard to see when using certain energy colors. Should make gas, I dunno, melt dudes I guess, into puddles or something. Does gas have a cool death effect? I don't even know because hardly use it.

I think you might be on to something here. If elements had cooler more "satisfying" effects, it would factor into some people's builds. I know I would choose a cosmetic look over another element if it only cost me a bit of damage. Weaker elements would still need to have their damage buffed though.     

Edited by Hypernaut1
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34 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

DE could intentionally make the elements rock paper scissors to the enemies, but do we REALLY want that? Do we really want to be forced to switch up elements against every faction? 

Personally, I wouldn't mind. Especially at higher levels like steel path. There should be distinct advantages for elements going up against robotics and infested. As it is now, they feel like a non factor. 

In the end, damage is still king. There's only so many ways you can convey that, and ultimately there will always be a best one. 

I don't think they all need to be perfectly balanced per say, but they all need to at least feel like a viable sidegrade to other options. 

Radiation comes to mind, as a damage type that isn't the meta for that many things, but feels like at least a decent sidegrade to other options in the use cases where it isn't ideal. Gas used to sort of be that before they destroyed it -- a sidegrade to other options. 

I don't think we need a full on pokemon style rock, paper scissors mess, and with 14 damage types (fifteen if you count true damage), I don't think keeping them perfectly balanced is possible, and like you said there will always be general meta's and meta's for certain things that float to the top. 

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About the principle of rock paper scissors with the elements, the only thing that prevents me from fully commit to it is the fact that it is extremely tedious to always go back to the arsenal to change my weapons configurations. It already has been requested countless times over the years to enable fast swap directly from our gear in the top left corner of the ESC menu … 😑

Regarding gas, I totally agree that its effect is underwhelming (I find it really unfair that the formula do not scale with elemental mods). But I'm not a fan of the idea of making it an element propagator because it will only make it a sub-element without any quality on its own, and I highly doubt that the majority of players are willing to sacrifice mod slots just to add a small aoe modifier to their weapons' status. Not to mention that it would only be available for Cold, Electricity and Magnetic, since all the others have Heat and/or Toxin in them (except of course some isolated cases of innate elements not mixing with mods).

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Posted (edited)
vor 6 Stunden schrieb quxier:

Comparing Blast & Cold (little oftopic so in spoiler):

  Unsichtbaren Inhalt anzeigen

 

 
 

- Blast is random WHILE Cold is not random. It's not 100% but 75%. 25% of hits will still hurt you a lot. With cold it's you that is "not fast enough".

- It affects all (there might be exception with status immunity or something) enemies, not only armed one.

- Effect is much stronger (visible) on Cold than Blast.

 

And what you mean by:

 

I guess it's either Xaku or Carnis Set.

As for Xaku it's close to 100% but it's still not 100%.

As for Carnis set it's only 30%. I'm not sure if it would work like you described. I haven't found any info about blast vs other evasion types. I may be wrong but I guess it would add another ~6% to your evasion.

 

As for pairs of types you may go for Viral then no blast. Or you could go Corrosive but other options for status are better (Electricity for 100% enemy inaccuracy OR Heat for armor stripping).

So, in my opinion, Blast is worse than Cold.

 

That would be interesting.

By "+30% heat" you mean damage? So +165% from Serration it would add 5 meters. Am I right?

 

I'm pretty sure by "% heat" they meant "% heat" and not "% damage". I base that assumption on the fact that they wrote "% heat" and not "% damage". On the Serration mod, does it say "x% Heat"?

Edited by Krankbert
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1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

I'm pretty sure by "% heat" they meant "% heat" and not "% damage". I base that assumption on the fact that they wrote "% heat" and not "% damage". On the Serration mod, does it say "x% Heat"?

I mean things like Serration will increase all damages, Heat as well.

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On 2021-05-08 at 2:35 PM, quxier said:

By "+30% heat" you mean damage? So +165% from Serration it would add 5 meters. Am I right?

18 hours ago, Krankbert said:

I'm pretty sure by "% heat" they meant "% heat" and not "% damage". I base that assumption on the fact that they wrote "% heat" and not "% damage". On the Serration mod, does it say "x% Heat"?

17 hours ago, quxier said:

mean things like Serration will increase all damages, Heat as well.

For this, I meant heat bonuses only. So, +90% heat from a mod would add 3 meters, on par with the current 10-proc gas cloud. Serration simply adds to the damage, while heat does not add any direct damage. Now, there are some pretty substantial heat bonuses like Ember's augment and Theorem Demulcent (but residual boils basically doesn't work anyways) and rivens, but that's just to add fun.

 

On 2021-05-08 at 5:44 AM, snoozecruise said:

How about having Gas clouds just have a chance to proc any random status effect?

On 2021-05-08 at 2:59 PM, Redfeather75 said:

Why can't gas be changed to propagate whatever the attached element is.

This is such a popular idea XD, where is it coming from?? Sure you could do this, but for such an effect to have much meaning, Gas should really be it's own unique element with +gas% mods since the pairings are limited to cold/electric/magnetic. That value of just giving cold or electric a little added area... I don't know if that is even practical. Like, imagine your current mod loadouts, would you really find the slots to build for just some utility like that? The offset would need to be substantial, like +6s additive duration, 3x the radius, stuff to really make people consider it.

 

On 2021-05-08 at 2:35 PM, quxier said:

As for Xaku

The evasion of The Vast Untime is misleading. The evasion is more like a traditional ARPG chance to not be affected by a ranged attack. Bullets pass through with a 75% chance exactly like Baruuk's Elude, and doesn't add with other -accuracy and +evasion sources.

Nyx's 20% passive does (should) count as additive evasion, so in theory she could easily achieve 95% with full blast, and 101% with agility drift. EMP Aura for Corpus should also count. It's a gimmick, but it's cool on paper.

On 2021-05-08 at 2:35 PM, quxier said:

I haven't found any info about blast vs other evasion types.

It's sadly because nobody has tested it. I experimented with Blast's interactions to teach a Lavos course, that's why I'm confident in the Carnis + Blast interaction. Cold is definitely superior to Blast in general, it's immensely useful for slowing demolysts in disruption. If I had to do a similar thread about blast, I'd argue how it's inferior to its own primary element, even if not all secondary elements are about being superior than the sum of their primary elements (except the toxin-based ones: Viral, Corrosive, crossing fingers for Gas).

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Actually; speaking of which my friend started playing again after over a year and was doing NW. Some of his first questions was "Did they add a gas damage warframe yet?" and "Why isn't there?"

Also no Bomberman frame still that uses a lot of Blast... could bird two kills with one blow if you made a Divinity Original Sin themed frame that spreads gas everywhere and then ignites it to blow up the map. Also barrells. But guess they'd have to buff gas first. 

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1 hour ago, VhwatGoes said:

For this, I meant heat bonuses only. So, +90% heat from a mod would add 3 meters, on par with the current 10-proc gas cloud. Serration simply adds to the damage, while heat does not add any direct damage. Now, there are some pretty substantial heat bonuses like Ember's augment and Theorem Demulcent (but residual boils basically doesn't work anyways) and rivens, but that's just to add fun.

So... Pistols, Riffle, Shotgun could get max (no riven or arcanes) 7 meters and melee 5 meters. To be honest I'm not sure if it's worth.

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