Slash status effect should no longer deal true damage

[TheArmchairThinker]

From having steel path, it's clear that slash is problematic with its bleed status dealing true damage since anything isn't viral + slash becomes obsolete and it's more apparent in steel path where grineer takes hilariously long time to take one unit down without viral + slash build.

I think it would be better if slash status effect no longer deal true damage where it's used to cheese through armor via bypassing the damage reduction. If we make slash status effect deal slash damage, it will be in line with other physical damage where slash fares better against bare flesh but weak against armor and no longer cheesing the armor from true damage.

What about the grineer armor? That means we can make the armor scaling more linear where level 100+ grineer unit doesn't have insane 90% damage reduction only to be killed from bleeding out that ignores it (45k per second tick is not a joke), making the game easier to balance while not being too complicated with hidden DR, massive health, etc

Regards,
One of your registered player

[taiiat]

i Kill everything that is susceptible to Status without any issues without using Viral + Slash.
if you can't Kill Enemies, it's you.

[Lutesque]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i Kill everything that is susceptible to Status without any issues without using Viral + Slash.
if you can't Kill Enemies, it's you.

As someone who has tried everything to make Corrosive Work... I firmly Disagree 😐...

 

[Zeddypanda]

Without the shield ignoring of toxin, armor reduction of heat, and AoE of gas, are you just looking to make slash the worst DoT?

[Animalon29]

insted just buff impact and puncture... stop nerfing things this is a pve game.

my suggestions:
Impact: after 10 procs the enemy drops its weapon and the enemy is launched against other enemies dealing a %(maybe 25%)  of their max HP as true damage, and if not killed let them be ready to apply mercy on them, and also makes the enemies have less accurancy up to 75%.

Puncture: after 10 procs make their armor/shields more vulnerable to damage, what I mean is, make their armor and shields less effectives, it is not about more raw damage. Keep the 75% armor bypass and also weakens the enemy  up to 75%, and why not add a weak point that if you hit there you deal true damage.

Slash: keep slash as how it is. Dont touch it, its perfect. 

since I'm writing this:

Corrosive: strip up to 95% armor and make any other element or type of damage also ignore up to 75% of armor and after the 10 procs let it buff your base damage maybe x2.

radiation:  I think it should at least strip up to 50% of armor and keep its other mechanics that it has rn. while effect is active let it lost 1% of max hp per sec.

blast: I have no idea what to put here, maybe make it do what it used to do, just knock back enemies, could also make the enemy drop its weapon. Add a radius effect to deal your weapon damage/status to nearby enemies.

magnetic: keep what it has rn but also make the enemies become magnets, just regroup them and give your weapon a 50% bonus damage after the enemy lost their shields.

gas: for those who think gas is weak, you are insane. 

Basic ones:

fire, toxic, electricity works just fine.

but cold, you know if the enemy is freeze, it could make them more "fragile". After 10 procs freeze them up to 95% and let them recive up to 150% extra critical damage/chance. and after they die they deal a % of their max hp as damage to a 3m radius when they shatter.

BTW: english is not my mother language, sorry for all the errors.

[deothor]

25 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i Kill everything that is susceptible to Status without any issues without using Viral + Slash.
if you can't Kill Enemies, it's you.

Lemme rephrase you "i overkill things why my over the top OP weapons/frames way way above difficulty curve i play in, therefore it's you who's bad"

 

Slash is kind of ridiculous. It should deal proepr DOT, sure. But it shouldn't be based on your damage, but rather mobs affected and their armour (cause how would you ever flesh-slash a fully plated heavy unit in the first place?).

[Animalon29]

24 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

As someone who has tried everything to make Corrosive Work... I firmly Disagree 😐...

 

you can use corrive/fire for critical builds, and add vulpaphyla panzer or hellstrum to deal viral. with a braton prime you can do up to 6k per bullet. for example and without a riven.

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

What about the grineer armor? That means we can make the armor scaling more linear

Ultimately, if you're tweaking armour in an effective way, Slash's dominance largely ends up fixed by itself. For one, anti-armour elements do quite well with their double-dipping bonuses when armour is within reasonable ranges, and if armour is kept within a reasonable range from early game to level cap, then Slash gets a run for its TTK money. For two, people overall tend to prefer more immediate results, and a DoT is anything but immediate. (See, also, Octavia being so good she's boring and her playrate is a meme. Preference makes a difference, too!)

2 minutes ago, Animalon29 said:

stop nerfing things this is a pve game.

Important to note that buffing everything eventually leads to the equivalent of a nerf. Say you make a weapon 2x stronger. Then, because enemies are now too weak (and the game is too easy and not engaging or fun), you make them 4x stronger. Well, you basically just cut that weapon's power in half. (In reality it's a lot more drawn out and complicated with lots and lots of changes over longer periods of time, but that's the sort of trend you get once you boil it all down)

Sometimes it's just easier to bite the bullet, cut to the chase, and do the nerf. It's not fun but if you're going to end up there anyway...

[Animalon29]

3 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Important to note that buffing everything eventually leads to the equivalent of a nerf. Say you make a weapon 2x stronger. Then, because enemies are now too weak (and the game is too easy and not engaging or fun), you make them 4x stronger. Well, you basically just cut that weapon's power in half. (In reality it's a lot more drawn out and complicated with lots and lots of changes over longer periods of time, but that's the sort of trend you get once you boil it all down)

Sometimes it's just easier to bite the bullet, cut to the chase, and do the nerf. It's not fun but if you're going to end up there anyway...

yes, you got a point in there, the game need a rebalance, idk I think if DE use a base to work, for example SP, since most players in there  just wants to test their maxed out mods, they could use that has a media and balance things from there. I know it is way more complicated and hard for DE, but i believe they can come with a good solution. 

But it is insane to think that a weapon with 4-6 formas and maxed out mods cant kill efficiently a SP enemy. it is not only about make the elements stronger, its about give the player and option. I love my braton prime and even with a riven it struggles on SP, so i have to carry on with acceltra or trumnna ( even knowing gunfire in the game has become weak)
in 2019 they rebalance the enemy armor/health/shield and it was amazing, then they introduced SP but with that stupid x2.5 armor/health/shield( dont get me wrong, corpus and infested feels amazing in SP but grinner or anything with armor feels like a sponge) they should have realese SP without the x2.5 extra armor, make the enemies more agressives, better eximus spawn. ( rn i have to play a survival up to 20 min to start to see eximus when the enemies are already lv100+).

and enemy AI needs  tweaks .

[Lutesque]

5 hours ago, Animalon29 said:

you can use corrive/fire for critical builds, and add vulpaphyla panzer or hellstrum to deal viral. with a braton prime you can do up to 6k per bullet. for example and without a riven.

I mean.... I could also just use Chroma or Rhino but that kinda defeats the purpose.... 

The issue is when I use Viral + Slash I didn't have to bother with any of that.... But trying to do the same with Corrosive requires Multiple Band Aids to work ?

5 hours ago, Animalon29 said:

I love my braton prime and even with a riven it struggles on SP, so i have to carry on with acceltra or trumnna ( even knowing gunfire in the game has become weak)

My issue with this is when Steel Path first came out we didn't care if our weapons couldn't do well there because there was little incentive to do Steel Path...

But then DE starting adding more and more goodies and now Steel Path is becoming the Benchmark Standard 😐 !!!

 

[CerealPlayer]

13 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

From having steel path, it's clear that slash is problematic with its bleed status dealing true damage since anything isn't viral + slash becomes obsolete and it's more apparent in steel path where grineer takes hilariously long time to take one unit down without viral + slash build.

I think it would be better if slash status effect no longer deal true damage where it's used to cheese through armor via bypassing the damage reduction. If we make slash status effect deal slash damage, it will be in line with other physical damage where slash fares better against bare flesh but weak against armor and no longer cheesing the armor from true damage.

What about the grineer armor? That means we can make the armor scaling more linear where level 100+ grineer unit doesn't have insane 90% damage reduction only to be killed from bleeding out that ignores it (45k per second tick is not a joke), making the game easier to balance while not being too complicated with hidden DR, massive health, etc

Regards,
One of your registered player

I’ve seen a few of your game suggestions. I see you fancy yourself a game designer. Let’s just say I’m happy you aren’t one. 

[TnaneverRisen]

On 2021-05-07 at 4:25 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

From having steel path, it's clear that slash is problematic with its bleed status dealing true damage since anything isn't viral + slash becomes obsolete and it's more apparent in steel path where grineer takes hilariously long time to take one unit down without viral + slash build.

...

Ha.  What an understatement.  The viral/slash issue (even just slash alone) is clearly horrible design.  I'm sure you know, this issue is brought up regularly, but the devs don't seem to care at all.

To really fix this, damage types, status vs crit, and defense types in general needs a huge overall.  It's an horrid unbalanced mess right now.

Here are some of the most clownish facts about slash procs that I like pointing out:

-Slash is supposed to be bad against armor (-15% for ferrite, -50% for alloy), but its status proc is magically the best possible against armor.

-You don't need even need to build for status, because crit (which is already overpowered vs artificially limited status builds) has Hunter Munitions and various guaranteed slash procs from skills/stances/weapons, which further leaves status builds behind.

-Even if slash damage is reduced by 50% against alloy armor, the slash proc damage is calculated before the strike's damage reduction, which means the proc will do more damage than the actual strike (can be easily 1000% or more).  This is such bad design, and so counter-intuitive, that I have to assume it's a code bug that the devs are too lazy to fix.

 

Nobody needs to build specifically against shields/health - everyone needs to build specifically against high level armor if you want to be effective at efficient play. You should know this obvious fact, so either you're completely clueless or you're being disingenuously argumentative.

[Berzerkules]

TLDR: impact and puncture are trash damage types so I suggest we make slash trash as well. Game is balanced, problem solved. 

[CerealPlayer]

1 hour ago, TnaneverRisen said:

  Nobody needs to build specifically against shields/health - everyone needs to build specifically against high level armor if you want to be effective at efficient play. You should know this obvious fact, so either you're completely clueless or you're being disingenuously argumentative.

You seem confused. Let me try to explain again: I'm not necessarily denying that. What I'm denying is that that, on its face, is a problem.  Why should having to specialise in order to complete "high level" anything be a problem? That's the point of it being high level.

Here's the disagreement: even if we grant you that slash dominates certain game modes, you've failed to argue why that is a problem for a game like Warframe. But, please, by all means, tell us why it is so.

[TnaneverRisen]

On 2021-05-07 at 11:34 PM, CerealPlayer said:

-snip-

You first admit that the only viable universal damage setup must contain slash, which coincidentally is also the best damage type for high level armor, but then you say it's not a problem.  Strange.  What's the point of other damage types then?  Clearly there is no point in your twisted view of "game design".  If the outlier obsoletes all other choices, then it's not simply an outlier - it's broken.

In addition, your understanding of "having to specialize" and "high level" are woefully inadequate.  Corpus and Infested units can be just as high level as Grineer units, but slash works just fine on Corpus and Infested, while being optimal for Grineer.  Through your bad comprehension, you have implied that there is some sort of extra cost of specializing in slash when compared to other damage types.  That implication is completely wrong.  In fact, it's easier to focus on slash than other damage types, due to the lack of initial damage reduction calculation and mods like Hunter Munitions.  You could have a weapon with literally 0 slash damage, and proceed to do more slash proc damage than the total damage of any other non-slash-capable weapon, which is insane, and anyone who thinks this isn't a problem should certainly not even attempt any sort of game design in any capacity.

[CerealPlayer]

On 2021-05-08 at 12:10 AM, TnaneverRisen said:

  You could have a weapon with literally 0 slash damage, and proceed to do more slash proc damage than the total damage of any other non-slash-capable weapon, which is insane, and anyone who thinks this isn't a problem should certainly not even attempt any sort of game design in any capacity.

And yet, this is precisely how the WF game designers designed the game. So, clearly, they, at the very least, thought it was a good idea at some point. And seeing how they haven't changed it, may still believe so. And, lets just add, they have accumulated experience, in-depth know-how, and access to metrics and other behind-the-scenes information that neither you nor I have.

All I'm saying is that just because you think it's bad design doesn't make it so.

 

[TnaneverRisen]

On 2021-05-08 at 12:34 AM, CerealPlayer said:

And yet, this is precisely how the WF game designers designed the game. So, clearly, they, at the very least, thought it was a good idea at some point.

...

 

...and all that means precisely nothing, because I'm sure you have some clue as to how many sweeping design changes various system have had over the years.  You're doing this intentionally for the purpose of continuing this "argument" so you can appear to have the last word.

[taiiat]

20 hours ago, deothor said:

Lemme rephrase you "i overkill things why my over the top OP weapons/frames way way above difficulty curve i play in, therefore it's you who's bad"

actually, that's with a variety of Weapons, because i just use things that i like and make them effective. while i use Gaze the most, some other fun picks of mine is Magnus, Trumna, Lanka, Sporothrix, Zarr, used to do Javlok before Gas was nerfed, Battacor, Synapse, Ignis Wraith because.... it works, Quanta Vandal, just to name a few.
i excluded any Weapons that happen to have strong Slash Status presence from this list, though there are some that do happen to that i sometimes use. 

but i pick my Weapons because i like the way they handle. and then i go Kill stuff mostly just the same as the rest. the only times i might rely on Viral+Slash is when i'm levelling stuff since it's easier to Kill things with it when your Weapon only has a half set of Mods or w/e so it can let you Level faster.

20 hours ago, deothor said:

Slash is kind of ridiculous.

Slash Status is an easier bar to reach than having your Weapons actually deal Damage, yes. it's the easiest branch to reach, but to suggest that it's the only branch that can be reached is patently incorrect.

[_junguler]

i just finished forma-ing my glaive prime last week and now you want to nerf it? can't catch a break these days.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

I agree with OP, slash dot are too strong. and tbh almost all other "true damage" deal lame damage (Sevagoth, Inaros, hydroid...), and I also agree that the damage chart don't really promote any type of physical damage except slash.

EDIT : some weapons are OK only because of how slash currently work (convectix, etc), nerfing slash would mean to somehow rework weapons with "high status, high rof, low base damage"

[Teridax68]

I have to agree, Slash status was always a bit nuts, and still is now even in an environment where Heat status now instantly strips half of an opponent's armor, and Viral status more than quadruples damage against their health. The latter probably need adjustments as well, as they're light years ahead of virtually any other status effect, but I think the easy fix to Slash would be to change its proc to Slash damage, rather than True damage: Slash is meant to be the damage type that's good against raw health, but bad against armor and shields, yet for the longest time it's been one of the best anti-armor damage types in the game due to its status effects, in a damage meta that generally revolves around dealing against armored opponents. The damage type could probably stand to have its damage bonus against flesh significantly increased as a result, so that building around it would be a matter of stripping an enemy of their shields and/or armor for big DoTs to start happening.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

On 2021-05-07 at 5:26 AM, Lutesque said:

As someone who has tried everything to make Corrosive Work... I firmly Disagree 😐...

 

You're also the person that didn't believe operators can be used to pop nullifier bubbles even when shown video proof. Like they said, the player makes the build.

 

I'm using elements other than viral and slash, so them being obsolete is false. 

What's more likely is that there are many players that need better build advice.

[NoSpax]

Imagine complaining about slash damage type, while owning a Panzer Vulpa, which deals massive stacks of Viral, reducing the enemies HP with every DoT anyway.

[bnuy]

I absolutely agree. Much like how slash bypassing armour invalidates build diversity and is counter-intuitive to the game's design, toxin bypassing shields is the same.

When you have slash which is able to singlehandedly be the most effective against all armour types, then there is never any reason to build for armour weakness. Why build corrosive for the +75% to Ferrite, or radiation for the +75% to Alloy, if you can use slash that is more effective than both radiation and corrosive against their respective types. It's a huge design issue that punishes build diversity and actively works against the game's design. Another issue that pushes slash as the only relevant way to deal with armour outside of 100% armour strip, is that armour scales. This means as enemy levels get higher the slash becomes more effective when compared to the weakness of corrosive or radiation, if an enemy has 50% damage reduction at level 1, and then 90% damage reduction at level 100 from armour, the slash goes from 2x as effective to 10x as effective. This presents lots of balance issues and absolutely is an issue that's existed for years and needs to be addressed. There is no build diversity, you're punished for attempting to build for weaknesses, much like with shields toxin bypasses all so why every build for a specific shield weakness when you can just bypass. It's bad design.

[bnuy]

On 2021-05-06 at 9:22 PM, taiiat said:

i Kill everything that is susceptible to Status without any issues without using Viral + Slash.
if you can't Kill Enemies, it's you.

It's not an issue of being able to kill enemies or not, it's an issue of what is good design and well balanced. Armour scaling is not balanced, it should not scale at all. Slash and toxin bypassing armour and shields works against the game's design and punish build diversity.