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Lets talk Gunblades


Loxyen
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Posted (edited)

Hi there!

I always wondered why Gunblades never got introduced to the reworked Conclave.. Was it a balance issue? The lack of stance moves back then? Not enough feedback/threads about it? idk... But I do remember that I always had a blast using Redeemer myself or vsing ppl who used the only Gunblade available in the old 1.0 Conclave system.

If they ever were to be added to Conclave, how should they behave and what role should they take on?

My thoughts were that they'd be some neat tool for chipping off dmg from players that stay close but out of the ordinary melee range.

So I guess balance wise the combo blade-strike damage should be around 40-60 dmg comparable with Skanas or rather a bit lower depending on the combo strike/shot succession that the stance would use and the shots would have an effective damage range of:

5m full dmg range (~60 divided through the pellets? If the Gunblade bursts instead (Sarpa has triple burst) divide that full dmg between the single shots)

8-10m about half the dmg 

around 12m 1/3rd dmg 

15+m only a single digit dmg each pellet/burst-shot hit (maybe around 10 total dmg if everything hits)

Considering the 'charge' time on heavy attacks they could deal up to 100-120dmg or have 5-10m more effective dmg range.

 

The stances available for use are:

 

Bullet Dance

https://imgur.com/a/IsVGSaA

 

High Noon

https://imgur.com/a/0DixQj5

 

If you had to choose one I'd guess that High Noon would be the overall better fit for Conclave, because of its combo variety between shots and blade strikes.

If we had to mix up combos between Bullet Dance and High Noon for a Conclave standalone stance I'd go like this:

 

 

E - Final Showdown from High Noon

(optional impair for the 2nd E input: its a jump strike)

What it looks like:

 

I would not recommend Automatic Rhumba from Bullet Dance because of that melee throw at the end. It always sticks in front of your model pov so you can do a little exploit and 360 swing with your direction input. I can imagine that this would cause quite some upset.

Here and example:

 

 

⬆️+E - Vagabond Blitz from High Noon 

I prefer it because it doesn't feel clunky and has clear strikes between the starting and the ending shot. The transition from the ending shot to the next attack feels pretty smooth aswell.

Here an example:

 

While Magnum Mambo from Bullet Dance looks similar in shot-melee-shot succession it has some drawbacks. If the spinning blade deals multi hits it could cause balance issues and the combo itself feels rather clunky due to the stop in motion with that horizontal swing followed by a mini front flip and a long charged ending shot.

It looks like this:

 

 

(⬆️+RMB)+E - Up to preference

Both stance combos would work here because they are very similar. Only difference is that Lead Tango from Bullet Dance has a close range melee strike following the double shot. Thus Desperado Zeal from High Noon might feel smoother when spammed.

 

 

RMB+E - Up to preference

 

Tomahawk Double-Tap from High Noon

Pure short range melee strike combo (knockdown possible on the initial slam):

 

Samba Slash from Bullet Dance

In the contrary this is a pure shooting combo and has nice evasive backwards movement from dodge rolls:

 

 

Keep in mind that the combo shot damage of the Gunblade can't be to high because you could simply quick melee spam the initial combo shots and primary/secondary weapon shots in succession like that:

Considering how you'd stay still doing this and be an easy target the combo shot damage shouldn't get nerfed into the ground either. Thats why I thought about ~60dmg within full damage range and a decent fall off after that.

 

What do you think about Gunblades in Conclave? Which rmb combos would you prefer? Should their punchthrough be enabled for Conclave? I wouldn't mind if it was just enough pt to hit multiple lined up players or shoot through a door or a small box edge tbh.

When Gunblades ever were added to Conclave I guess we'd need a short testing time to see how they fit into the balance anyway and adjust the damage, fall off, attack speed values if needed.

 

Edit: As long as the stealth multiplier isn't overly busted it shouldn't be that much of an issue keeping it enabled. Loki and Ash invisibility breaks once you attack. Ivara might be a problem, but even then you'd either have to use her draining 3 or make use of the small field of her 1 which would only allow stationary shots. However I can see the quick melee shooting exploit being heavily utilized there so maybe disabling that multiplier would be the wiser choice.

Edited by Loxyen
Added stealth multiplier consideration
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This is a well thought out topic.

However... Conclave is dead, dude. Its been dead for a long time. DE has done jack-all to modernize and/or update conclave in (what seems like) years.

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2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

DE has done jack-all to modernize and/or update conclave in (what seems like) years

Jack-all? Big doubt! Despite its huge potential Conclave always was just a side gimmick to the main game. The very few stream features aside we had the popular Variant events and thats it. It was mostly one dev aka DEJoebuck working on Conclave and doing a pretty well job about balancing the whole thing from scratch. As long as it got dev support (until poe launch) it always had a fairly active and by no means dwindling community behind. Do not mistake match making flaws with nobody playing it either. Also do you remember the pie chart about the popularity of mission types they presented? Keep in mind that despite survival missions being an overall loved game mode, especially at that time, it had poor stats on the chart and DE even adressed it. Thats because something like the started lobbies were counted, so obviously something quick and spam able like capture or extermination would fetch way higher % than survival missions where the long run counted. Same for Conclave. You start a lobby and then the entire lobby is in an endless cycle with rotating e.g. 10 minute matches until everyone leaves. Did DE account private lobbies (which were pretty popular for 1v1 or pug team fights in pvp? Did they account that the dedicated servers are simply just one huge endless lobby each? Guess not. Compared with the raids that had a similar % like Conclave on the chart, but which were a one time from start to finish run through each session similar to extermination, its obvious that cc wasn't compared correctly like survival missions.

That aside the Old Blood update with its unbalanced bugs and reworks bleeding over untouched took a devastating hit to Conclave's population. Worst state it ever had so far. Yet even now, beside all that S#&$ Conclave has to suffer through atm, things seemed to stabilize and we got a slowly recovering number of players around with regulars and new players.

Do you know what 2020 should've been? The announced year when DE comes back to pvp after 3 years of neglect when they took every dev available to bridge the pve content droughts caused by the big open world projects. It does not require much effort to fix the bugs and rebalance outliners in Conclave since the core game and balance is still there. However covid hit and thats that now. 🤷‍♀️

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11 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Hi there!

I always wondered why Gunblades never got introduced to the reworked Conclave.. Was it a balance issue? The lack of stance moves back then? Not enough feedback/threads about it? idk... But I do remember that I always had a blast using Redeemer myself or vsing ppl who used the only Gunblade available in the old 1.0 Conclave system.

...

I guess the devs recongised that they were hard to balance, and I'd wager they would need some additional stats/code to be able to tune them properly in PvP. So I'd imagine they were put aside and then forgotten about, like so many things here. (Anyone remember the Sergeant rework? 😄)

 

11 hours ago, Loxyen said:

...

What do you think about Gunblades in Conclave? Which rmb combos would you prefer? Should their punchthrough be enabled for Conclave? I wouldn't mind if it was just enough pt to hit multiple lined up players or shoot through a door or a small box edge tbh.

When Gunblades ever were added to Conclave I guess we'd need a short testing time to see how they fit into the balance anyway and adjust the damage, fall off, attack speed values if needed.

Haven't really used them all that much outside of Conclave so I don't have a strong opinion on it in general. But I definitely agree they'd need time for fine tuning. So maybe with Punch Through at first, but with a clear message that it might get disabled at some point. Would depend a lot on the numbers as well, of course, so speculation is moot.

 

I think I'll have to play them more in PvE before putting some additional thoughts here.

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12 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Jack-all? Big doubt! Despite its huge potential Conclave always was just a side gimmick to the main game. The very few stream features aside we had the popular Variant events and thats it. It was mostly one dev aka DEJoebuck working on Conclave and doing a pretty well job about balancing the whole thing from scratch. As long as it got dev support (until poe launch) it always had a fairly active and by no means dwindling community behind. Do not mistake match making flaws with nobody playing it either. Also do you remember the pie chart about the popularity of mission types they presented? Keep in mind that despite survival missions being an overall loved game mode, especially at that time, it had poor stats on the chart and DE even adressed it. Thats because something like the started lobbies were counted, so obviously something quick and spam able like capture or extermination would fetch way higher % than survival missions where the long run counted. Same for Conclave. You start a lobby and then the entire lobby is in an endless cycle with rotating e.g. 10 minute matches until everyone leaves. Did DE account private lobbies (which were pretty popular for 1v1 or pug team fights in pvp? Did they account that the dedicated servers are simply just one huge endless lobby each? Guess not. Compared with the raids that had a similar % like Conclave on the chart, but which were a one time from start to finish run through each session similar to extermination, its obvious that cc wasn't compared correctly like survival missions.

That aside the Old Blood update with its unbalanced bugs and reworks bleeding over untouched took a devastating hit to Conclave's population. Worst state it ever had so far. Yet even now, beside all that S#&$ Conclave has to suffer through atm, things seemed to stabilize and we got a slowly recovering number of players around with regulars and new players.

Do you know what 2020 should've been? The announced year when DE comes back to pvp after 3 years of neglect when they took every dev available to bridge the pve content droughts caused by the big open world projects. It does not require much effort to fix the bugs and rebalance outliners in Conclave since the core game and balance is still there. However covid hit and thats that now. 🤷‍♀️

Yup.

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I love the idea. I really enjoyed using gunblades ever since the redeemer was added way back forever ago. Gunblades should have been included in conclave and your thought process is very reasonable for how to implement them. However, DE doesn't care. They decided to create one of the greatest arena shooters ever made and subsequently destroyed it for no reason. Same deal with Solar Rails. I don't want to give DE any good ideas because I know they'll end up creating it and bringing it to fruition only to smash it with a proverbial sledgehammer.

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