Raids will fail at this point (My opinion)

[Aldain]

The issue is the balance gap, the A.I. issues mostly stem from pathing more than anything imo. I've actually lost count of how many enemies have just been randomly taking a needlessly long route to reach me or a defense objective at times.

But overall the issue lies in the utter lack of balance between player abilities/damage and enemy durability/damage. We have too much on-demand AoE nuke/shutdown power and enemies are either made of paper and shoot spitballs at us or are walking pillars of concrete with anti-material machineguns.

A raid as most people know them can't exist in any fashion while this gap is in place, and even with the gap removed, Warframe isn't designed for many of the raid tropes that people always reference anyway (stand here or wipe, DPS check or wipe etc.) because Warframe, unlike most games with raid content, isn't narrowly designed enough to fit that raid schema.

If Warframe were ever to introduce anything Raid-like, they'd need to first get the numbers under some sense of control, less bat&%*$ crazy multipliers being spammed everywhere, less overabundance of energy so perma-stunlock isn't a thing for hours on end, less enemies that either do nothing or two-shot you and so on.

It would also need to develop something totally different from what a traditional Raid with mechanics that would actually fit Warframe properly rather than falling back on the tropes of "do one step of the hokey pokey wrong and everyone dies" type mechanics, which would be a massive undertaking without a doubt.

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

1 hour ago, bad4youLT said:

Saryn , Equinox , Mirage , Mesa , Gara , Nova , Protea , Vauban , Volt can nuke or trivialize enemies with out needed to see them and even behind walls .

To quote DE Pablo "you can have the best AI in the world , it wont matter if players can endlessly CC and kill anything in 50 meters range"

 

Right, but whenever reading a thread that talks about big structural changes to Warframe, I think it’s important to keep in mind that realistically, none of the changes would be made in a vacuum. When people talk about better A.I., it should be understood that player power would need to be brought down to facilitate such a change.

I’d say the same thing to the people in this thread clutching their pearls at the thought of having fewer enemy spawns because of garbage drop rates being made even worse. Like come on people, no one is suggesting just turning down enemy spawns and leaving it at that. Drops would obviously need to be radically rebalanced to compensate.

And therein lies the problem. Despite the fact that I constantly advocate for these sweeping structural changes that are so desperately needed in this game, I also recognize that they are not likely to happen, because Warframe is such a tangled web of interconnected, poor design decisions. You can’t fix one thing without fixing everything. And I’m sorry to be harsh to the devs because I know they are good people who just want to make a good product, but DE has shown that they are either unwilling, or simply unequipped to do the fixing.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

I'm a retired raider i used to play WoW and Warframe is nothing like it.

in games like WoW you need proper armor/weapons, stats,strategies ect and a team that knows the fights in and out also how to handle being overwhelmed if things go sideways 

in Warframe you become a one man army that can solo most content.  so the only way to really make raiding work is force a bunch of players to work together with stupid puzzles or challenges that you need those people to work together.  

I don't like raiding as an idea for Warframe because i did it the first time around and it didn't work out for people and the loot wasn't anything special.

after doing it for a bit i just skipped it all together.

 

[RazerXPrime]

12 hours ago, MouadSaqui said:

while every time I get into a mission in warframe I wish there was something else to do rather than just mindlessly shoot and use melee to kill everything as quickly as possible

That's basically all that Diablo is once you cleared the main story. In fact Warframe is nothing like that unless you choose to play it like that. Waframe has a lot more diverse content than anything Diablo-esque.

[IIDMOII]

12 hours ago, 16Bitman said:

I think new raids will have a hard time getting a decent playerbase in the days of many solo players that also never want to fail any mission.

I would love to fail a mission or even die if it were actually fair and within my control to prevent. It rarely is in this game though. Its always a cheap, unavoidable 1 shot or some idiot a.i. gets killed. 

The problem with the idea of raids is that the game is too easy. The combat is skewed heavily in our favor and the a.i. is non-existent so the only way to really challenge players would be through convoluted scripted mechanics and puzzles or .....timers etc. 

Then it just devolves into whoever can be arsed with finding other people to coordinate with on discord. You're not even being tested in-game anymore at this point. Not everyone is willing or even wants to devote that much extracurricular energy and time on a video game hobby. 

If they can find a way to make it work within the existing matchmaking framework and come up with something better than puzzles, then it could be viable. 

[Soy77]

11 hours ago, MouadSaqui said:

Also Nobody plays Dynasty Warrior in 2021 except some niche type of players, that game is dead

because in 2021 we have warframe.

we're playing dynasty warrior with multiple extra layers of mechanics.

[Hayrack]

If raids will have 1000 Endo/ 2000 credits/ Serration/ relics/ materials in their droptables, I sure as hell won't waste my time with this type of content.

[-SicMundusCreatusEst-]

1 hour ago, Hayrack said:

If raids will have 1000 Endo/ 2000 credits/ Serration/ relics/ materials in their droptables, I sure as hell won't waste my time with this type of content.

Did they had them back in the day? No

 

 

[Hayrack]

1 hour ago, -SicMundusCreatusEst- said:

Did they had them back in the day? No

 

 

So what did they have as "common" rewards?

[Zaniel_Aus]

20 hours ago, (PSN)Shelneroth said:

Large parts of the community won't like it but to be blunt they need to like it or lump it.

You know, if you go over to the WoW forums or GW2 forums or Destiny forums etc etc etc, there's always someone telling the developers that they should burn 50-80% of their playerbase and vaporise their game in order to satisfy said person's desires, who then complains about what they get anyway. If your suggestions ever entail some sort of phrase like "casuals/elitists can just leave" then it's probably best to reassess your suggestion and see if it makes sense.

As for the OP, we have no information on raids so why do you assume the devs won't use some form of Eidolon boss mechanic system? I mean you've acknowledge that you think this was done well. As it stands you're shouting into the void with no information.

[-SicMundusCreatusEst-]

6 minutes ago, Hayrack said:

So what did they have as "common" rewards?

Common arcanes

[Zaniel_Aus]

17 hours ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

I'm a retired raider i used to play WoW and Warframe is nothing like it.

in games like WoW you need proper armor/weapons, stats,strategies ect and a team that knows the fights in and out also how to handle being overwhelmed if things go sideways 

People are absurdly reductionist when trying to make a point. I could say "WoW raiding is 1) Not standing in fire + 2) Pressing hotkeys when off CD". There are plenty of required tactics in Warframe but people just pretend to reduce it down to "press 4 to win".

Some quick examples of mechanics that need to be dealt with:

• Nullifiers
• Mobs that need to be shot from behind
• Mobs that need to be target in weak spots or bellies
• Mobs with push-back mechanics
• Shield generators that can't be destroyed from the front
• Energy drainers
• Enemy damage reducers and healers
• Weapons with all sorts of status effects
• Environmental effects (gas, fire, cold, radiation , etc) - more than WoW has btw, 99% of raids in WoW are red fire vs green fire vs yellow fire vs black fire.

I also see plenty of people not knowing how to do assassination targets which include things like phases and shooting off bits.

Were any of the trash mobs in WoW in Ny'alotha any different to a pack of high level Heavy Gunners? 3 guards all taunted onto one tank and perma stunned while 40 players blow it up. They were exactly the same, not exactly peak gameplay. When was the last time you saw mobs in Eternal Palace take cover? WoW's AI is even dumber than Warframe, their raids are just super heavily scripted to make them complex without AI.

Warframe has all the same tools as any other MMO to build a raid, it has all the systems of "stand here" / "don't stand here" / "pick this up and carry it here" / "LOS this" / "press this button" that WoW does. Their only real limitation is the number of players that can be effectively linked in with the p2p system compared to servers in other MMOs.

[Mr.Fluffins]

On 2021-05-09 at 5:59 AM, 16Bitman said:

I think the power creep just sells well, back in the day when emptying your entire Brakk into a heavy gunner to kill it was considered an amazing weapon

Can we please stop with this "well back in my days Warframe was HARD, not like today" nonsense? Maybe during closed beta it was a vastly different game (which was less than one year out of Warframe's overall 8 year time span), but back when I reached the endgame first time, when void keys were a thing and the highest difficulty mission was T4 Void, the game was already easy. I could run solo hour long survivals in T4 void as a MR5 with a 0-forma Valkyrie and formaless dual zorens. And the group content consisted of watching twitch or netflix for hours while the whole level is in a permanent stun lock, and you keep getting those "amazing" fusion cores and orokin cells from an endgame mission.

Warframe was always an easy game. The reason raids failed was because they were pre-made only 8 squad content with a lot of obtuse gimmicks unique to itself, never encountered anywhere else in the game.

Triple eidolon hunts can be considered a Warframe's equivalent of raid content. 4-man missions that require certain level of gearing, everyone has to know his role and know the mechanics. This is the format in which "raids" in WF can exist. But you can bet that almost nobody is going to play hour-long destiny style raids in this game, it's simply too long for 99% of WF players.

RJ could also be a raid-style content, but it proved that the major playerbase is so incapable of learning even basic new mechanics that it got dumbed down to the point of being able to play itself with crewmates.

[Mr.Fluffins]

On 2021-05-09 at 5:52 AM, MouadSaqui said:

bcs lets be honest here, Warframe is not a top down ARPG, it is nothing like Path of exile or Diablo franchise, those games have built in mechanics that makes them worth playing, builds in ARPGs makes sense and more about your play style than about the numbers,

Have you actually played PoE for a long period of time, like reaching and farming endgame? Most top builds are literally hold one button to kill several screens in less than a second, pressing 1-5 (or using macro) to keep your flask buffs up while leeching most of your health back. End-game bosses consist of simply facetanking most of their attacks and phase switching them in seconds, occasionally dodging telegraphed one-shots if your dps is not high enough to simply kill them before they do that. Very engaging and surely "not just about numbers."

PoE is completely and utterly about numbers. How many millions of dps you have, how fast can you clear a level, how much currency you can get in a hour so that you can spend the next couple of hours trading with no AH, pming bunch of bots and AFK people who price-fix. I played PoE more than Warframe (and I played quite a bit of Warframe), you can't fool me.

 

On 2021-05-09 at 5:52 AM, MouadSaqui said:

sometimes I start to think its not DE's fault the game is a big Giant extermination mission,

And here I agree 100%. I also believe that it is playerbase's fault, ESPECIALLY the so called 'content creators", who cry and moan about every little thing, more so if it requires them to adjust what they have been doing for the past 8 years even slightly.

[Danielw8]

Look, new railjack mission are very simple and my last runs i still see people being afk or doing random stuff

Player 1: Pilot do the stuff from outside (taxi + 3 kills)

Player 2: White objetive, enter activate the console, back again to railjack

Player 3: Yellow objetive, also player 2 at this moment can join here.

And we are talking only one extra objetive, just one and again i feel for most of warframe players new railjack mission are so hard, and honestly i think this missions are like a test for the players or an entry for raids. Im not talking speedruns with min max builds and 50 runs of practice, im talking about taking random inaros players doing 5 bullet jump to a objetive and activate the console, yes they cant do that.

When people say warframe is so easy, thats true, but players are not ready for something in squad, sync actions or whatever, if you check all the gamemodes in the game are like one objetive or just kill. Players cant even handle spy missions or radiation in mobile defense. The only mission different on this, is eidolon hunt, your squad have 4 players, everyone playing a role, and doing different stuff, and your goal is X timing, for that you need practice and understeand the timing of the game (and this is actually why some people hate eidolons)

At the end i think and i play warframe because the game is for chilling and just a easy game, if i actually want stress and be competitive i back to dota

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, Zaniel_Aus said:

As for the OP, we have no information on raids so why do you assume the devs won't use some form of Eidolon boss mechanic system? I mean you've acknowledge that you think this was done well. As it stands you're shouting into the void with no information.

That still wouldnt validate it as an actual raid since in reality the mechanics of the Eidolons doesnt really require a group or any form of proper group setup. A raid is in essence an encounter that involves the whole group equally, with everyone having specific jobs to do and doing them correctly. Even in a flawed raid design attempt such as those in Marvel Heroes, the devs still managed to bring that to life by having the groups split up properly and so on. You had the first dual boss, where you needed to switch focus from one to another during the fight, effectively requiring people to manage mechanics fitting for 2 full groups. Then you had the sisters where you needed people with different damage types on each of the 3 and then in the end you had Surt, an encounter that split the group up randomly through portals that sent you off to kill a few minor bosses before being able to return to fight Surt again, leaving parts of the raid to fight him during that process.

What it lacked though, just as WF does, is diverse roles, so everything in a raid was a dps and self sustain hero. Which makes turning it into a raid really pointless since there are no actual roles to fill for 8-10 people. And that in turn results in S#&$e puzzle mechanics that has nothing to do with the spirit of the game. In Marvel Heroes it even got to the point where they were about to rework raids into scaling 1-10 man content since the devs also saw the flaws of having mandatory raids that had no real mechanics to support it and no way to implement such mechanics either.

We'll never have proper raids with tanks, off-tanks, main/secondary healer and dps, it will all just be dps. We'll never require proper timing in the use of skills, the correct positioning or anything like that, we'll just hack away until the bar is gone, giving no #*!%s to the rest of the group.

[Krankbert]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb RazerXPrime:

That's basically all that Diablo is once you cleared the main story. In fact Warframe is nothing like that unless you choose to play it like that. Waframe has a lot more diverse content than anything Diablo-esque.

The difference is that progression in Warframe very quickly peters off and becomes entirely horizontal if not outright dead ends. There is no gear to chase, nothing to improve, no gain in anything. People stop playing Diablo-type games when they get bored with them, not because they have run out of things to do or get.

[Loza03]

On 2021-05-09 at 4:34 AM, (PSN)Shelneroth said:

I think the main problem is Warframe doesn't know what sort of game it is or even wants to be. A major aspect of this is the player base pulling in two different directions. Broadly one side wanting quick, easy, overwhelming power while the other side want challenging, skill based content. I remember DE_Steve once saying something to the effct the game was always flipping between being Dynasty Warriors and Dark Souls. Ultimately I think the devs need to make a firm decision where they want the difficulty of the game to sit and work towards it. Large parts of the community won't like it but to be blunt they need to like it or lump it. Harsh as it is I belive this would be best for the quality of the game. Sadly I suspect the current status que of trying to pander to everyone will continue as this better for the longevity of the game.

This. And honestly, this can be easy and accessible. It is possible to have an easy, accessible game that's still got a lot of depth to it. Kirby and Mosnter Hunter: Rise stand as testament to this principle, and if we expand the definition a bit, DnD 5e works like this too, and look at how well that's worked for it. And, of course, Minecraft.

It's a lot harder to have a broken system work like this though. Warframe, as is, is only easy because the game is so unbalanced. Without the aspects that make it unbalanced, the game can be tilted just as, if not a little harder, against the player, with enemies tracking players through walls, instantly turning corners and often packing high-damage hitscan with ludicrous health bars. What makes Warframe easy is that it's incredibly trivial to completely invalidate all those things if you know how to do it. If you don't know or don't want to, you'll have a bad time. If you do, you'll curbstomp everything.

[Zaniel_Aus]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That still wouldnt validate it as an actual raid since in reality the mechanics of the Eidolons doesnt really require a group or any form of proper group setup

What? The meta setup for an Eidolon hunt literally includes a damage buffer, a healer, a DPSer and a damage mitigator. The fact that high end players can overpower that meta and run other things is no different from those daft 25-mage Ny'alotha runs. Bring enough good players with crazy enough gear and you don't need to follow a meta, this has been the case with almost all raids and dungeons in MMO history. Is WoW raiding irrelevant because 25 mages with no healers or tanks can run the raid?

Plus you're STILL making judgements with no information. All they have to do is tweak dials to make the roles that Warframe already has necessary. We even have the distinctions that WoW has amongst DPS, single target, AOE, dots etc.

How can you possibly say "raids won't work" without seeing how they do it. Will they mess it up and not make it work? I dunno, maybe, but that will be developer error, not some fundamental problem baked into the game.

[Sloan441]

1 minute ago, Zaniel_Aus said:

 

How can you possibly say "raids won't work" without seeing how they do it. Will they mess it up and not make it work? I dunno, maybe, but that will be developer error, not some fundamental problem baked into the game.

They've already done it. The playerbase was not interested for the most part. Why spend the time when 75% of your population has no interest in it?

This game isn't EQ or even WoW. You don't need 71/39/24/19/9 of your best friends along to help you scratch your ass. You simply couldn't do a raid without massive group effort. Classes also had pretty well delineated roles--and there was a lot of infighting in guilds about what roles those that were hybrid classes might serve in. There can be a lot of drama in guilds and one reason I quit these games was because of this sort of thing. 

None of this applies to Warframe. 

The closest parallel I can think of offhand was Diablo 2. However, D2's enemies would scale with the number of players in the group. The players might delineate their own roles, but they were also potentially quite capable of doing whatever they were doing on their own. They just wanted more enemies and more chances for good stuff. Sound familiar?

I played a lot with Amazon Basin back in the day, and the group was basically several bowazons of some description (usually speedazons), a fanaticism or conviction paladin for buffs, and a tankazon/javazon/spearazon (pre-v1.10) type to play a dedicated Valkyrie role (hey, it talks!). These weren't really raids in the strictest definition, but a group playing together for both fun and better chances of upgrades. 

And that's where I think the answer might be, but I don't know how complicated it would be to implement enemy scaling. This would fit neatly into what already exists and wouldn't need the creation and maintenance of custom content for something only a small fraction of the players are interested in. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

5 hours ago, Zaniel_Aus said:

What? The meta setup for an Eidolon hunt literally includes a damage buffer, a healer, a DPSer and a damage mitigator. The fact that high end players can overpower that meta and run other things is no different from those daft 25-mage Ny'alotha runs. Bring enough good players with crazy enough gear and you don't need to follow a meta, this has been the case with almost all raids and dungeons in MMO history. Is WoW raiding irrelevant because 25 mages with no healers or tanks can run the raid?

Plus you're STILL making judgements with no information. All they have to do is tweak dials to make the roles that Warframe already has necessary. We even have the distinctions that WoW has amongst DPS, single target, AOE, dots etc.

How can you possibly say "raids won't work" without seeing how they do it. Will they mess it up and not make it work? I dunno, maybe, but that will be developer error, not some fundamental problem baked into the game.

Meta isnt the subject for raids, it's roles, active roles that are promoted in the design. Everything has a meta, but everything isnt a raid. Eidolon hunts dont have, nor do they require heals, tanks and dedicated dps. Picking those simply makes it easier. What you describe with mages is something that is done down the line, that does not invalidate the actual design of the raid.

And no, there is alot more to do than tweak dials to make the trinity roles appear in WF. We dont have dedicated tanks, healers or dps, since everyone can do everything. They'd need to break away from that completely, much like how the devs of GW2 did it. The only thing we share with WoW are all the different paths to dps, like you mention single target, dots etc.

I can say so because it has already been done twice, thrice even if we consider solar conflicts, which were in essence a type of raid if we are going to go by the lose term of the word that seems to be what DE based their "raids" around. That means they've failed twice with two seperate "raid" setups, while also failing twice within one of those setups alone. Should they really waste resources and hours a third (4th) time just to show people that havent kept up with info on the previous "raids" that it will end up failing?

I've raided since Darkness Falls in DaoC, seen/experienced PvEvPvEvP, pure PvE, trinity, non-trinity, open, closed and everything raid related in between. It has worked in all of those shapes and forms except in games resembling Warframe. All the games with Warframe-like classes, combat and roles have just resulted in the same question "why?". Because the only thing "raid" in those games have been the mandatory inflated group size in content that would otherwise serve just aswell for small groups or solo play. They have all also had a very lukewarm or dead cold reception. Warframe is no different and follows the pattern with a horribly low raid attendance percentage, it is quite shocking to see how close it was to the "raid" attendance in Marvel Heroes. We are talking percentage numbers that can be counted on one hand that is missing 3-4 fingers.

edit: And I'd like to ask one thing. What would adding 4 more people result in versus encounters similar to an eidolon? What exactly would it achieve that cannot be achieved in a 4 man encounter? What raid mechanic would be present to make the fight engaging for all 8? It already lacks mechanics for full engagement of a 4 man group aslong as a single person is geared.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That still wouldnt validate it as an actual raid since in reality the mechanics of the Eidolons doesnt really require a group or any form of proper group setup. A raid is in essence an encounter that involves the whole group equally, with everyone having specific jobs to do and doing them correctly. Even in a flawed raid design attempt such as those in Marvel Heroes, the devs still managed to bring that to life by having the groups split up properly and so on. You had the first dual boss, where you needed to switch focus from one to another during the fight, effectively requiring people to manage mechanics fitting for 2 full groups. Then you had the sisters where you needed people with different damage types on each of the 3 and then in the end you had Surt, an encounter that split the group up randomly through portals that sent you off to kill a few minor bosses before being able to return to fight Surt again, leaving parts of the raid to fight him during that process.

What it lacked though, just as WF does, is diverse roles, so everything in a raid was a dps and self sustain hero. Which makes turning it into a raid really pointless since there are no actual roles to fill for 8-10 people. And that in turn results in S#&$e puzzle mechanics that has nothing to do with the spirit of the game. In Marvel Heroes it even got to the point where they were about to rework raids into scaling 1-10 man content since the devs also saw the flaws of having mandatory raids that had no real mechanics to support it and no way to implement such mechanics either.

We'll never have proper raids with tanks, off-tanks, main/secondary healer and dps, it will all just be dps. We'll never require proper timing in the use of skills, the correct positioning or anything like that, we'll just hack away until the bar is gone, giving no #*!%s to the rest of the group.

Actually, the eidolon fights literally had roles for years. It wasn't until the meta was openly shared that players began attempting solo play. Even now, it's rare to see solo players or dual players goin at eidolons...again, unless they are very hardcore in the meta.

[MouadSaqui]

12 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

Have you actually played PoE for a long period of time, like reaching and farming endgame? Most top builds are literally hold one button to kill several screens in less than a second, pressing 1-5 (or using macro) to keep your flask buffs up while leeching most of your health back. End-game bosses consist of simply facetanking most of their attacks and phase switching them in seconds, occasionally dodging telegraphed one-shots if your dps is not high enough to simply kill them before they do that. Very engaging and surely "not just about numbers."

PoE is completely and utterly about numbers. How many millions of dps you have, how fast can you clear a level, how much currency you can get in a hour so that you can spend the next couple of hours trading with no AH, pming bunch of bots and AFK people who price-fix. I played PoE more than Warframe (and I played quite a bit of Warframe), you can't fool me.

I mean my point is that Games like PoE are designed to fit the ARPG genre, you pick your class and as you progress through the game you upgrade it, with different Items and builds and gear until your class plays and feel different from when you started the game,

In warframe we don't have that, sure we can use mods but do they really change the way we play the game that much ? I don't think so, what mods do is they increase your damage output and Speed. for warframe to be considered like PoE we need some gear system that add something to the way we play the game, something like PoE gem system could be replicated easily using Arcanes in warframe, DE doesn't need to re-invent the wheel in my opinion, the game has some solid foundation already !  

12 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

And here I agree 100%. I also believe that it is playerbase's fault, ESPECIALLY the so called 'content creators", who cry and moan about every little thing, more so if it requires them to adjust what they have been doing for the past 8 years even slightly.

a lot of them are playing are playing other games on stream, Streamers are streamers... if the subcount is low bcs of a certain game of course they gonna bi-tch about it

[MouadSaqui]

12 hours ago, Danielw8 said:

At the end i think and i play warframe because the game is for chilling and just a easy game, if i actually want stress and be competitive i back to dota

again it doesn't have to be stressful, warframe can offer some solid Raiding system while keeping the chill aspect IF and only if DE decides to fix the way we interact with enemies, I think people hate spy missions bcs its more like trying to Solve a Maze than going Solid Snake mode and infiltrate, Nobody want to do MATHS, and solve a puzzle, or be under the pressure of a freaking timer, what DE can do is make game mode around the Idea of chill without making the game Tedious, If the Lich system wasn't too punishing when it came out the community would love to play it.

the game doesn't have to be PVP or competitive like Dota or Apex, but a PvE competitive game mode with seasons Can Help this game keep a stable player count, and honesty if we have something like this in the future I'm down for it, but right now whats the point from doing the same extermination mission over and over..

[Zaniel_Aus]

11 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

The playerbase was not interested for the most part. Why spend the time when 75% of your population has no interest in it?

This is a separate issue and you may very well be right (in fact I suspect you are). As a broad generalisation the audience of Warframe likes "go fast" gameplay and personal challenge rather than organisational challenge. My only point is that Warframe HAS all the tools needed to do something cool in the raid space but it is a million years too early to make any judgement until we see the particulars of what they produce. It could be something awesome or dysfunctional pointless rubbish.

A judging thread like this is pointless, what we would be BETTER served by is a thread which says "here's basic concepts we must see/must not see if raids are looking to succeed as content".