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Banshee Rework - Updating her to fit better in modern Warframe


Azamagon
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GENERAL REASONING FOR MY REWORK PROPOSAL:

In my opinion, Banshee is arguably one of the worst choices for modern Warframe (yes, Hydroid is also really bad - but I digress).

A big part of her not being up to par, is her extreme squishiness. Every other Warframe has some form of survivability in their stats, skills and/or augments, be it via raw tanking power, healing, invisibility, defensive walls, evasive techniques or even abilities that provide brief invincibility (like Atlas' Landslide or Excal's Slash Dash). Hek, even HYDROID can hide in his puddle, and VAUBAN can get armor from Bastille!

All Banshee has is CC to account for her survivability. And many enemies are immune to many forms of CC nowadays. It also seems Banshee's "survivability" is hinging on her not being discovered by enemies (via her passive and her Silence ability), but that definitely doesn't work in most missions, especially not in multiplayer.
Furthermore, it seems like she isn't "allowed" to have good survivability, most likely due the capability to get RIDICULOUS amounts of damage via her multiplicative Sonar-stacking (a feature which I consider generally unhealthy, not just for Banshee, but for the game overall).

On top of that, Soundquake feels quite out of place in her kit, being almost purely a nuke (a very stationary one too, if unagmented), while the rest of her kit promotes more of a mobile weapon- and CC-playstyle.

So, my proposition is to give her more survivability and QoL, but this will come at the cost of toning down Sonar's stackability, and Soundquake will have some changes too, hopefully giving a good compromise between being a nuke and a tool that meshes better with the rest of her kit.

On to the details of the rework:

PASSIVE:

  • Current weapon-silencing effect is removed as a passive (Her Silence ability will silence her weapon noises though, so it's not entirely gone)
  • New passive: Ghostly Shroud
    • Ghostly Shroud is an aura on Banshee, with a minimum range of 6 meters, and max range of 40 meters. The size of the aura depends on her actions (more to that right below), and the aura makes her invisible to enemies who are outside of the aura (with some caveats to that, more to that right below). Basicly, you want this aura to be as small as possible, so you are less visible and thus also more prone to survive.
      • The aura's size is unchanged when jogging, wallrunning or upon her first jump/bulletjump within 5 seconds.
      • The aura's size shrinks if you stand still, crouch (moving or not), slide or wallcling.
      • The aura's size grows if shooting with noisy weapons, sprinting or doing a more than 1 jump/bulletjump within 5 seconds.
      • When her Silence ability is active, the aura's size can't grow in size, no matter what actions you perform!
      • If an enemy sees Banshee when within her aura, that specific enemy will keep seeing her for as long as that enemy remains in the aura, and up to 5 seconds more after leaving the aura. If they attack Banshee (damaging auras don't count), they also keep resetting this 5 second timer. This means you have to be careful if you're spotted; hiding behind cover and using crowd control (like Sonic Boom's knockdown and pushback) are essential to stay hidden.
      • The size of the aura is visualized by some energyswirls circling around her, similar to Equinox's Pacify&Provoke ability.

Why this passive?

  • The main point of it is to give her a pseudo-stealth survivability tool. It's not perfect, as even with Silence active it still requires you to keep some distance from enemies to remain hidden. To me, that's a good blend of powerful, yet also interactive and "non-trivializing". Use it right, and you're one mighty evasive beast. Use it wrong, and you'll still die real quick.
  • Another point is to make her Silence ability a bit more important to her kit, while not buffing the skill directly (due to it being her Helminth skill). While it's a decent skill, it generally is more useful on other Warframes, sadly. But by giving it some synergy with her passive by making it prevent the aura's size growth, it suddenly skyrockets in usefulness for Banshee!
  • It further also gives some synergy with her Sonic Boom skill, making its pushback effect not just a "random thing", but it serves a true purpose to help her hide and survive.
  • If you think this passive sounds overpowered, check out Wisp's passive for contrast.

SONIC BOOM:

A decent skill, now arguably better with her new passive (as described above). But, it can still get some polishing, mostly in the QoL-area.

  • Is now a onehanded cast, allowing you to move, cast and shoot all at the same time. This is sorely needed to make the ability feel less clunky.
  • Can push back all enemy projectiles midflight, while also making them able to harm enemies. A minor and very niched survivability / nuking option, but interesting nontheless, imo.

SONAR

As mentioned in the intro of this post, this is likely the culprit of Banshee's "power distribution" issues and why she's not allowed survivability. Due to her new passive being a potentially very powerful survivability tool, Sonar is gonna get some big changes. While the changes will reduce the extreme power potential, it will also see some major QoL-boosts.

  • Is now an upper body animation, meaning you can move and cast it at the same time, but you cannot shoot at the same time.
  • Is no longer a singular debuff cast, but it is now a debuff aura of sorts, stuck on Banshee. Details on how that works:
    • It has a radius of 20/25/30/35 meters (same as now) and a duration of 10/15/20/30 seconds (same as now), and all enemies hit by the aura are marked on the radar and have a bodypart highlighted - attacking this highlighted bodypart amplifies damage dealt to the target by 200/300/400/500% (same as now).
    • The aura is not constant, but rather "pings out" a sonar wave every 2 seconds. Enemies are not marked until they are struck by a sonar wave. On cast, there is an immediate sonar wave. The first on-cast wave uses the same animation as now, while the subsequent ones are very subtle in graphic, as to not be visually disruptive. There is no benefit to an enemy being struck by more than one sonar wave.
      • This gives the ability massive QoL in regards to not needing to recast the ability every time there's new enemies incoming.
    • Enemies remain highlighted for the same duration as her aura's current duration, even if they leave the aura after being highlighted.
    • Recasting the ability can add more highlights on the same target (just like now), but if two Sonar highlights land on the same spot, their bonuses stack additively (i.e. x5, x10, x15, x20 etc) instead of stacking multiplicatively (i.e. x5, x25, x125, x625 etc)
      • This heavily tones down Sonar's stacking power, but doesn't outright remove it.
  • Augment: Resonance Intense Sonar - Causes Sonar to highlight up to 1/2/3/4 more bodyparts at once (none can be on the same spot), and reduces the time between Sonar waves by 0,25/0,5/0,75/1 second (meaning it sends sonar waves every 1,75/1,5/1,25/1 seconds, for each augment rank respectively).
    • If this makes the augment seem a little underwhelming, since it's mostly a QoL-boosting one, it could also passively buff some stat of Sonar, like a little bit more Strength to it.
    • EDIT: Augment idea could be reverted, due to keeping some of its stackability.

SILENCE

As mentioned on the passive, Silence on Banshee currently is kinda weak, especially when compared to Helminth-transferring it to other Warframes, generally. However, with the changed passive, this skill likely would be deemed stronger in the hands of Banshee herself - but I'd still like to see some QoL and improvements to the skill.

  • Is now an upper body animation, meaning you can move and cast it at the same time, but you cannot shoot at the same time.
  • As mentioned on the passive: While Silence is active, Banshee's passive aura will not grow in size, no matter what actions you perform! This more or less makes Silence her "invivisbility"-ability, making it far more than just a quirky CC-tool for her.
  • While active, it makes all your weapons silent. Maybe it could also make your allies' actions silent when they are within Silence's radius?
  • The ability can be disabled at any time by holdcasting the ability midduration (no energy refund though). This allows for restunning enemies by recasting it again after, if need be.
  • Augment: Its finisher-opening property now functions more akin to a blind - if an enemy is stunned by Silence, they are eligible for a finisher for 6/7/8/10 seconds (affected by Ability Duration, with the minimum duration being the same as the enemy's stun animation duration)

SOUNDQUAKE WAILING ECHOES (Placeholder name?)

Repeating what I said in the intro; Soundquake is a bit of an odd fit in Banshee's kit, being more of a pure nuke (and very stationary, when unaugmented), while the rest of her kit is more about mobile weapon and CC-play.
While having a nuke is not a bad thing per say, being basicly the ONLY strength of the ability is not great though. With that in mind, I tried to change the ability to be less nukey, while also providing a debuff that helps with weaponplay. The debuff is somewhat placeholdery, but could potentially work as is:

  • The base ability is now cast similar to augmented Soundquake, as a single expanding sonic wave and costing 100 energy to cast.
    • The wave now has a bit of height to it, so it is capable of hitting flying enemies as well.
    • Effect range is also changed to be somewhere between the current base Soundquake and the augmented version; 15/20/25/30 meters radius (compared to 12-20 and 27-35 meter radii).
  • When it strikes enemies, it staggers them and deals 1500 Blast damage (and loses damage as it expands, same as the current augmented version also does), but it now also debuffs all enemies for 10/15/20/25 seconds (modifiable by Ability Duration), and they are fully affected by this debuff regardless of their distance from Banshee.
    • Attacking an enemy affected by Wailing Echoes with melee weapons or non-AoE damage from ranged weapon attacks, causes the damaged target to project a damaging AoE-pulse around it, with a radius of 2,5/3/3,5/4 meters (modifiable by Ability Range, and does NOT go through walls), dealing damage equal to 15/25/35/50% of the weapon damage taken (and can never cause more than a total of 15/25/35/50% of its max health), with the same damagetypes as the weapon attack.
      • Note that it has a 1 second delay before a pulse can trigger (dealing all currently "stored" damage at once when it does trigger), and will occur even if the target dies.
        • For example: At max rank, as soon as you start attacking an affected enemy, you manage to deal 100 damage to the enemy within 1 second. After that 1 second,, it will cause a 50-damage pulse to all nearby enemies. Let the enemy be for a while, and nothing happens. Then you later attack it for 250 damage over 1 second, it will then deal 125 damage in its AoE-pulse after that 1 second - and you keep attacking it, dealing another 300 damage within the 1 second timer, which then produces a 150 damage pulse. Then you shoot a shot which deals 100 damage, killing the target. 1 second after, a 50 damage pulse will appear around its corpse.
  • Augment: Resonating Quake Mourning Echoes - Enemies projecting damage via the debuff also grants the debuff to unaffected enemies for 50/65/80/100% of the remaining duration. In addition, when an affected enemy is killed, it continues to echo out damage, equal to all previously projected damage over 5 seconds. This death-pulsation can also grant the debuff to unaffected enemies. (All stats of the augment are unmodifiable)

Yes, its debuff basicly makes it an AoE version of a lesser Marked for Death. Note that I'm not strongly promoting this debuff in particular, but I do promote giving the ability a debuff which further enhances her weapon useage, to synergize especially with Sonar.

------------------------------------------------------

So, that's the gist of the rework. Tell me what you think, please!

Edited by Azamagon
Fixed some spelling mistakes
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I don't have time to read your entire page, but banshee does great in squad play rn, especially when paired with wisp. Her survivability just makes single player difficult, but warframes don't need to excel at everything.

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3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

GENERAL REASONING FOR MY REWORK PROPOSAL:

In my opinion, Banshee is arguably one of the worst choices for modern Warframe (yes, Hydroid is also really bad - but I digress).

A big part of her not being up to par, is her extreme squishiness. Every other Warframe has some form of survivability in their stats, skills and/or augments, be it via raw tanking power, healing, invisibility, defensive walls, evasive techniques or even abilities that provide brief invincibility (like Atlas' Landslide or Excal's Slash Dash). Hek, even HYDROID can hide in his puddle, and VAUBAN can get armor from Bastille!

All Banshee has is CC to account for her survivability. And many enemies are immune to many forms of CC nowadays. It also seems Banshee's "survivability" is hinging on her not being discovered by enemies (via her passive and her Silence ability), but that definitely doesn't work in most missions, especially not in multiplayer.
Furthermore, it seems like she isn't "allowed" to have good survivability, most likely due the capability to get RIDICULOUS amounts of damage via Sonar-stacking (a feature which I consider generally unhealthy, not just for Banshee, but for the game overall).

Id agree with this if not for the fact so many endgame enemies are immune to sonar. As it stands currently, most weapons are capable of killing 150+ enemies without the need for sonar like years before. Therefore, not only does banshee not have survivability, but her utility as a frame is significantly less important. Same reason why trinity has kinda been forgotten, since we have so many ways to generate energy that we no longer need EV. 

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

On top of that, Soundquake feels quite out of place in her kit, being almost purely a nuke (a stationary one too, if unagmented), while the rest of her kit promotes more of a mobile weapon- and CC-playstyle.

Very true

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

So, my proposition is to give her a more survivability and QoL, but this will come at the cost of Sonar-stackability, and Soundquake will have some changes too, hopefully giving a good compromise between being a nuke and a tool that meshes better with the rest of her kit.

On to the details of the rework:

PASSIVE:

  • Current weapon-silencing effect is removed as a passive (Her Silence ability will silence her weapon noises though, so it's not entirely gone)
  • New passive: Ghostly Shroud
    • Ghostly Shroud is an aura on Banshee, with a minimum range of 6 meters, and max range of 40 meters. The size of the aura depends on her actions (more to that right below), and the aura makes her invisible to enemies who are outside of the aura (with some caveats to that, more to that right below).

This, this I like. However, I do feel like (as Ill mention later) this passive currently makes silence an ability you are forced to always activate, as opposed to an ability you would want active. Essentially, the reasons to have it active are not better then the disadvantages to not having it on. 

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:
    • Basicly, you want this aura to be as small as possible, so you are less visible and thus also more prone to survive.
      • The aura's size is unchanged when jogging, wallrunning or upon her first jump/bulletjump within 5 seconds.
      • The aura's size shrinks if you stand still, crouch (moving or not), slide or wallcling.
      • The aura's size grows if shooting with noisy weapons, sprinting or doing a more than 1 jump/bulletjump within 5 seconds.
      • When her Silence ability is active, the aura's size can't grow in size, no matter what actions you perform!
      • If an enemy sees Banshee when within her aura, that specific enemy will keep seeing her for as long as the enemy remains in the aura, and up to 5 seconds more after leaving the aura. If they attack Banshee (damage auras don't count), they also keep resetting this 5 second timer. This means you have to be careful if you're spotted; hiding behind cover and using crowd control (like Sonic Boom's knockdown and pushback) are essential to stay hidden.
      • The size of the aura is visualized by some energyswirls circling around her, similar to Equinox's Pacify&Provoke ability.

I will also say this passive is complicated af. I like it, but its also the most detailed and wordy passive of any frame. 

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Why this passive?

  • The main point of it is to give her a pseudo-stealth survivability tool. It's not perfect, as even with Silence active it still requires you to keep some distance from enemies to remain hidden. To me, that's a good blend of powerful, yet also interactive and "non-trivializing". Use it right, and you're one mighty evasive beast. Use it wrong, and you'll still die real quick.
  • Another point is to make her Silence ability a bit more important to her kit, while not buffing the skill directly (due to it being the Helminth skill). While it's a decent skill, it generally is more useful on other Warframes, sadly. But by giving it some synergy with her passive by making it prevent the aura's size growth, it suddenly skyrockets in importance for Banshee!
  • It further also gives some synergy with her Sonic Boom skill, making its pushback effect not just a "random thing", but it serves a true purpose to help her hide and survive.
  • If you think this passive sounds overpowered, check out Wisp's passive for contrast.

SONIC BOOM:

A decent skill, now arguably better with her new passive (as described above). But, it can still get some polishing, mostly in the QoL-area.

  • Is now a onehanded cast, allowing you to move, cast and shoot all at the same time. This is sorely needed to make the ability feel less clunky.
  • Can push back all enemy projectiles midflight, while also making them able to harm enemies. A minor and very niched survivability / nuking option, but interesting nontheless, imo.

Personally Id enjoy if sonic boom also added a small bit of survivability in the form of a wind wall. Keep the “reflects projectiles on cast” but also allow it to project a sound wall that continues to reflect projectiles for X seconds. 

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

SONAR

As mentioned in the intro of this post, this is likely the culprit of Banshee's "power distribution" issues and why she's not allowed survivability. Due to her new passive being a potentially very powerful survivability tool, Sonar is gonna get some big changes. While the changes will reduce the extreme power potential, it will also see some major QoL-boosts.

  • Is now an upper body animation, meaning you can move and cast it at the same time, but you cannot shoot at the same time.
  • Is no longer a singular debuff cast, but it is now a debuff aura of sorts,, stuck on Banshee. Details on how that works:
    • It has a radius of 20/25/30/35 meters (same as now) and a duration of 10/15/20/30 seconds (same as now), and all enemies hit by the aua are marked on the radar and have a bodypart highlighted - attacking this highlighted bodypart amplifies damage dealt to the target by 200/300/400/500% (same as now).
    • The aura is not constant, but rather "pings out" a sonar wave every 2 seconds. Enemies are not marked until they are struck by a sonar wave. On cast, there is an immediate sonar wave. The first on-cast wave uses the same animation as now, while the subsequent ones are very subtle in graphic, as to not be visually disruptive. There is no benefit to an enemy being struck by more than one sonar wave.
      • This gives the ability massive QoL in regards to not needing to recast the ability every time there's new enemies incoming.
    • Enemies remain highlighted for the same duration as her aura's current duration, even if they leave the aura after being highlighted.
    • Recasting the ability removes all previous highlight marks from enemies, but the new Sonar cast can potentially highlight a new bodypart.
      • This is what removes the Sonar stacking capability, reducing her maximum extreme damage potential.
  • Augment: Resonance Intense Sonar - Causes Sonar to highlight up tp 1/2/3/4 more bodyparts at once (none can be on the same spot), and reduces the time between Sonar waves by 0,25/0,5/0,75/1 second (meaning it sends sonar waves every 1,75/1,5/1,25/1 seconds, for each augment rank respectively).
    • If this makes the augment seem a little underwhelming, since it's mostly a QoL-boosting one, it could also passively buff some stat of Sonar, like a little bit more Strength to it.

 

I enjoy turning sonar into an actual sonar scanner, but I dont agree that we should remove the stacking. I did mention earlier that as players we no longer need stacking, but it doesnt negate the fact that banshee is known for her damage stacking. Id be fine however if we capped the amount of sonar spots per enemy to something like 5 normally, and that value increases with the augment.

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

 


SILENCE

As mentioned on the passive, Silence on Banshee currently is kinda weak, especially when compared to Helminth-transferring it to other Warframes, generally. However, with the changed passive, this skill likely would be deemed stronger in the hands of Banshee herself - but I'd still like to see some QoL and improvements to the skill.

  • Is now an upper body animation, meaning you can move and cast it at the same time, but you cannot shoot at the same time.
  • As mentioned on the passive: While Silence is active, Banshee's passive aura will not grow in size, no matter what actions you perform! This more or less makes Silence her "invivisbility"-ability, making it far more than just a quirky CC-tool for her.
  • While active, it makes all your weapons silent. Maybe it could also make your allies' actions silent when they are within Silence's radius?
  • The ability can be disabled at any time by holdcasting the ability midduration (no energy refund though). This allows for restunning enemies by recasting it again after, if need be.
  • Augment: Its finisher-opening property now functions more akin to a blind - if an enemy is stunned by Silence, they are eligible for a finisher for 6/7/8/10 seconds (affected by Ability Duration, with the minimum duration being the same as the enemy's stun animation duration)

I like the augment change, otherwise its mostly the same, which you gave a reason for. I dont have an issue with its same-i-ness, but again I dont enjoy the idea of a frame having an ability that must be active or else. 

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

SOUNDQUAKE WAILING ECHOES (Placeholder name?)

Repeating what I said in the intro; Soundquake is a bit of an odd fit in Banshee's kit, being more of a pure nuke (and very stationary, when unaugmented), while the rest of her kit is more about mobile weapon and CC-play.
While having a nuke is not a bad thing per say, being basicly the ONLY strength of the ability is not great though. With that in mind, I tried to change the ability to be less nukey, while also providing a debuff that helps with weaponplay. The debuff is somewhat placeholdery, but could potentially work as is:

  • The base ability is now cast similar to augmented Soundquake, as a single expanding sonic wave and costing 100 energy to cast.
    • The wave now has a bit of height to it, so it is capable of hitting flying enemies as well.
    • Effect range is also changed to be somewhere between the current base Soundquake and the augmented version; 15/20/25/30 meters radius (compared to 12-20 and 27-35 meter radii).
  • When it strikes enemies, it staggers them and deals 1500 Blast damage (and loses damage as it expands, same as the current augmented version also does),

Why does the damage need to decrease with distance? 1500 isnt that much as it is <_< 

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:
  • but it now also debuffs all enemies for 10/15/20/25 seconds (modifiable by Ability Duration), and they are fully affected by this debuff regardless of their distance from Banshee.
    • Attacking an enemy affected by Wailing Echoes with melee weapons or non-AoE damage from ranged weapon attacks, causes the damaged target to project a damaging AoE-pulse around it, with a radius of 2,5/3/3,5/4 meters (modifiable by Ability Range, and does NOT go through walls), dealing damage equal to 15/25/35/50% of the weapon damage taken (and can never cause more than a total of 15/25/35/50% of its max health), with the same damagetypes as the weapon attack.
      • Note that it has a 1 second delay before a pulse can trigger (dealing all currently "stored" damage at once when it does trigger), and will occur even if the target dies.
        • For example: At max rank, as soon as you start attacking an affected enemy, you manage to deal 100 damage to the enemy within 1 second. After that 1 second,, it will cause a 50-damage pulse to all nearby enemies. Let the enemy be for a while, and nothing happens. Then you later attack it for 250 damage over 1 second, it will then deal 125 damage in its AoE-pulse after that 1 second - and you keep attacking it, dealing another 300 damage within the 1 second timer, which then produces a 150 damage pulse. Then you shoot a shot which deals 100 damage, killing the target. 1 second after, a 50 damage pulse will appear around its corpse.

I like this idea, and it sounds thematically unique. However, it feels like you put too many restrictions on it for fear of it being too good. Im fine with the “precision shot/melee” requirement, but the fact that is also cant do above 50% max hp, has a 1 second internal delay, and cant go through walls/obstacles. The base range for the secondary effect also seems small, but I can see the reasoning for that so its less of an issue.  

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

  • Augment: Resonating Quake Mourning Echoes - Enemies projecting damage via the debuff also grants the debuff to unaffected enemies for 50/65/80/100% of the remaining duration. In addition, when an affected enemy is killed, it continues to echo out damage, equal to all previously projected damage over 5 seconds. This death-pulsation can also grant the debuff to unaffected enemies. (All stats of the augment are unmodifiable)

Yes, its debuff basicly makes it an AoE version of a lesser Marked for Death. Note that I'm not strongly promoting this debuff in particular, but I do promote giving the ability a debuff which further enhances her weapon useage, to synergize especially with Sonar.

Im fine with this augment as well. Might I suggest another name for the ability however? “Reverb”? And the augment could be “Cascading Reverb”? 

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

------------------------------------------------------

So, that's the gist of the rework. Tell me what you think, please!

Yeap

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On 2021-05-09 at 11:44 PM, _Tormex_ said:

I don't have time to read your entire page, but banshee does great in squad play rn, especially when paired with wisp. Her survivability just makes single player difficult, but warframes don't need to excel at everything.

Well, she wold sill be really good in squadplay, arguably moreso now when you don't have to resurrect her as much :P
While it's true that not all Warframes need to excel at everything, this rework wouldn't make her excel at everything. She has, besides a bunch of QoL, just been given a main tool to survive better. She's not much different otherwise.

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On 2021-05-10 at 3:06 AM, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

1) Id agree with this if not for the fact so many endgame enemies are immune to sonar. As it stands currently, most weapons are capable of killing 150+ enemies without the need for sonar like years before. Therefore, not only does banshee not have survivability, but her utility as a frame is significantly less important. Same reason why trinity has kinda been forgotten, since we have so many ways to generate energy that we no longer need EV. 

2) This, this I like. However, I do feel like (as Ill mention later) this passive currently makes silence an ability you are forced to always activate, as opposed to an ability you would want active. Essentially, the reasons to have it active are not better then the disadvantages to not having it on. 

3) I will also say this passive is complicated af. I like it, but its also the most detailed and wordy passive of any frame. 

4) Personally Id enjoy if sonic boom also added a small bit of survivability in the form of a wind wall. Keep the “reflects projectiles on cast” but also allow it to project a sound wall that continues to reflect projectiles for X seconds. 

5) I enjoy turning sonar into an actual sonar scanner, but I dont agree that we should remove the stacking. I did mention earlier that as players we no longer need stacking, but it doesnt negate the fact that banshee is known for her damage stacking. Id be fine however if we capped the amount of sonar spots per enemy to something like 5 normally, and that value increases with the augment.

6) I like the augment change, otherwise its mostly the same, which you gave a reason for. I dont have an issue with its same-i-ness, but again I dont enjoy the idea of a frame having an ability that must be active or else. 

7) Why does the damage need to decrease with distance? 1500 isnt that much as it is <_< 

8 ) I like this idea, and it sounds thematically unique. However, it feels like you put too many restrictions on it for fear of it being too good. Im fine with the “precision shot/melee” requirement, but the fact that is also cant do above 50% max hp, has a 1 second internal delay, and cant go through walls/obstacles. The base range for the secondary effect also seems small, but I can see the reasoning for that so its less of an issue.  

9) Im fine with this augment as well. Might I suggest another name for the ability however? “Reverb”? And the augment could be “Cascading Reverb”? 

10) Yeap

1) What, some enemies are immune to Sonar too? Goes to show how not-up-to-date she is (and how little I've used her in tougher content due to how frail she is :P) I know Sonar's hard to use / semi-useless on some bosses, but imo that needs a hands on approach so her Sonar actually only highlights attackable parts on bosses.

2) Glad you liked it!
However, if you think about it, it's actually LESS needed to use Silence on Banshee, then it is to use, say, a regular Invisibility ability on someone like Loki. If Loki has his Invisibility activated = He's totally safe. If it's off = He is very prone to die. But if Banshee has Silence on = She has her minimum area range (meaning, she's generally safe). If she has Silence off = She still has her aura to protect her, you just need to be careful with things like sprinting or shoot with loud guns. If you're on a stationary mission (like Defense) and have silenced your guns with mods, you can just park yourself somewhere relatively safe and you won't even need to cast Silence. Hek, even not silencing your weapons with mods would be needed, as she could stay crouched to keep minimizing the aura size!

Silence just offers her the ability to go swift and loud, really. So, imo, Silence would imo be far less needed to boost her survivability than it is for other Warframes with similar methods of surviving.

3) While it is somewhat complicated, it could be summarized in its description something like this:

"Banshee has a personal invisibility aura, hiding her from enemies who are outside of it. Loud actions and swift movements increase its size, while slow movement shrink it. And be careful: If an enemy has seen you, it will see you for a while even after leaving the aura - and its successful attacks on you allows it to keep seeing you!"

Then its interaction with Silence could simply be add to Silence's description.

4) Hah, that's really funny, as I had that idea added to it too! xD
I scrapped it though, because I thought this rework should stay kind of simple overall (and more focused on her new passive). But I could see that being added, if nothing else on its augment!

5) Glad you like the more Sonar-y aspect!
But I hardly think she'd be allowed such immense power along with this new passive though, not to mention with the massive retargetting QoL Sonar got here. Besides, just because she's "known for it", doesn't mean it's a good thing to keep. If we ever want to have some serious endgame bosses (Iike raids and such), if Sonar's working on it, it's gonna trivialize the boss for sure. It's just really unhealthy for the game's already poor balance.

6) See point #2!

7) To deemphasize its nuking aspect and not overload the power with too much good stuff at once. Sure, it could be tuned up if needed, but I wanted to make sure that the focus is more on the debuff.

8 ) "fear of it being too good" is exactly why I suggested the numbers like this. Again, numbers can be tweaked, it's more for the general idea.

9) Any name which fits to explain the ability is fine really, and your suggestions could totally rework. The reason I gave it those (placeholder) name was to tie in more of the ghostly Banshee mythology (same reasoning for her passive's name) on her, so it's not JUST about pure and "neutral" soundstuff.

10) Thank you for this thorough review! I highly appreciate it! ^_^

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Sonar

I like the QoL changes but I agree with CommanderC2121there really isn't a solid reason to get rid of the sonar stacking. If you look at some of the other warframes powers in the game it would be pretty easy to see that gross over kill or an OP ability isn't uncommon. Limbo can stop time, octavia can basically disable enemy AI, Mesa can auto aim dual high damage infinite ammo pistols that never need to reload, and saryn has infinite damage scaling. I don't really see a reason to remove stacking sonar if it's fine for other frames to have stuff like that. The constant pulse is cool though. 

Silence

Rather than having to hold cast to cancel why not just make it recastable? Just seems like an extra step. Also, I don't think it should make ally weapons silent just because that would kinda mess up how octavia's fourth ability works since the more noise you make the more damage bonus you get from it. Otherwise neat.

Passive

This is kinda crazy, but at one point I had a very similar idea. I never submitted it to the forums because I didn't fully understand banshee at the time so it's cool to see that someone else had a similar idea. This is waayyy more detailed then what I was thinking at the time though. I was just thinking enemies within 16-50 meters couldn't see her and at 15 meters or less they react to her like normal. I like this idea though. 

Soundquake

Love it. Minus the part where it can't damage past 50% health. 

Sonic Boom

I have no opinion on her first power as with this rework I'd just subsume ensnare or larva onto her. 

Banshee Being Extremely Squishy

Banshee prime with all 3 umbra mods has 1070 health and over 300 armor which is enough for a 50% damage reduction to health. Umbra intensify gives more than enough power strength to negate overextended's negative strength. Because sonar can stack an be recast for free with current augment not a lot of power strength is needed. I understand that is a lot to make the frame not squishy to several players but I just wanted to bring up there is currently a way to make her powers strong without her being squishy. That said,  I'm all for her getting a rework/tuneup so that this level of equipment isn't needed to give her decent survivability and good powers. 

Overall

Nice.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-13 at 9:17 PM, (PSN)crashtester17 said:

Sonar

I like the QoL changes but I agree with CommanderC2121there really isn't a solid reason to get rid of the sonar stacking. If you look at some of the other warframes powers in the game it would be pretty easy to see that gross over kill or an OP ability isn't uncommon. Limbo can stop time, octavia can basically disable enemy AI, Mesa can auto aim dual high damage infinite ammo pistols that never need to reload, and saryn has infinite damage scaling. I don't really see a reason to remove stacking sonar if it's fine for other frames to have stuff like that. The constant pulse is cool though. 

Silence

Rather than having to hold cast to cancel why not just make it recastable? Just seems like an extra step. Also, I don't think it should make ally weapons silent just because that would kinda mess up how octavia's fourth ability works since the more noise you make the more damage bonus you get from it. Otherwise neat.

Passive

This is kinda crazy, but at one point I had a very similar idea. I never submitted it to the forums because I didn't fully understand banshee at the time so it's cool to see that someone else had a similar idea. This is waayyy more detailed then what I was thinking at the time though. I was just thinking enemies within 16-50 meters couldn't see her and at 15 meters or less they react to her like normal. I like this idea though. 

Soundquake

Love it. Minus the part where it can't damage past 50% health. 

Sonic Boom

I have no opinion on her first power as with this rework I'd just subsume ensnare or larva onto her. 

Banshee Being Extremely Squishy

Banshee prime with all 3 umbra mods has 1070 health and over 300 armor which is enough for a 50% damage reduction to health. Umbra intensify gives more than enough power strength to negate overextended's negative strength. Because sonar can stack an be recast for free with current augment not a lot of power strength is needed. I understand that is a lot to make the frame not squishy to several players but I just wanted to bring up there is currently a way to make her powers strong without her being squishy. That said,  I'm all for her getting a rework/tuneup so that this level of equipment isn't needed to give her decent survivability and good powers. 

Overall

Nice.

 

Sonar

On a personal level, I wouldn't really care too much if Sonar stacking remained (as long as the QoL changes are made, I'd be happy!). The reason for nerfing this was:

1) The overall health of the game. Many other things also needs changes for balance, yes, but this felt like one of those "potential extremes" that could be nipped in the bud

2) I was trying to follow the "bucket" mentality of DE; Give some and take some. Sonar would be much easier to use, and she gets far better survivability - but at the cost of her Sonar stacking

3) With point #2 in mind, it's also more likely to happen :P

Silence

Imo, ability to cancel it (or most duration-based abilities, in fact), while situational, can have its uses. Like, you really don't wanna stun X enemies over there, so I'd like to cancel it. Or, I WANT to be seen from over here, so I would like to make noise again to increase aura range. Just a thing I'd like to have - instead of having to rely on running into Nullifier bubbles or falling down a hole.

As for not silencing allied weapons - that's a great point! It really shouldn't silence allies with that in mind, will definitely edit that part!

Passive

I can believe you, really. I was inspired by the Banshee Prime video, partially. Were you perchance as well?

Soundquake

Understandable, we all like some overpoweredness :P Numbers can always be raised though, and I wanted to start with reasonable values

Sonic Boom

Fair enough. I'm actually glad about that, in a sense, because it means that while she has good kit synergy now, it's not ESSENTIAL to keep either (as it's always nice to have at least one skill in the kit feel like it has the capability of being Helminth-replaced without too much loss)

Squishyness

Almost any other Warframe could do the same with better results though. Or they could cast a survivability-ability :D I get your point, but it's kinda... moot?

Overall = nice

Thanks! Appreciate the feedback! ^_^

Edited by Azamagon
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  • 2 weeks later...

Really love this idea. I've always thought Banshee makes a lot of sense as a Sniper frame. But given she has no way to be invisible or actually avoid detection, she basically can't be.

I would say that I dont like Silence's stun still not lasting the entire duration but with this rework the stun is more of a bonus than the main use, so that's fine.

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8 hours ago, (NSW)Larena said:

Really love this idea. I've always thought Banshee makes a lot of sense as a Sniper frame. But given she has no way to be invisible or actually avoid detection, she basically can't be.

I would say that I dont like Silence's stun still not lasting the entire duration but with this rework the stun is more of a bonus than the main use, so that's fine.

Hey, thanks!

WIth this she'd definitely fit as a Sniper-style frame indeed. And yes, with these changes Silence would be more about her survival than the CC - despite not removing the current CC at all.

Just curious: What's your opinion on the Sonar changes (i.e. massive retargetting QoL at the likely loss of stackability)?

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Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-09 at 10:44 PM, _Tormex_ said:

but warframes don't need to excel at everything.

they need to excel at being fun to play!

Edited by _Anise_
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2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Hey, thanks!

WIth this she'd definitely fit as a Sniper-style frame indeed. And yes, with these changes Silence would be more about her survival than the CC - despite not removing the current CC at all.

Just curious: What's your opinion on the Sonar changes (i.e. massive retargetting QoL at the likely loss of stackability)?

To be honest I dont have any strong opinions. I think it's a valid change. Stacking Sonar is like, basically pointless. So I dont think losing it is a huge deal, and the other changes seem good. 

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She really doesn't need that many changes, especially not to her ult. I don't want to see the stationary nuke gone just because the entire game now geared towards spamming bullet jumps and rolling. Instead of homogenizing the playstyle with the warframe average, the drawbacks should stay but get rewarded with a bigger potential to exert power over the game. All of Banshee's skills are viable by design, and all that is needed is to enhance what they do in order to actually make her as fun as a lot of the newer warframes. She's already plenty powerful, but a total lack of any ability interplay or her non ult abilities rooting her do show just how little she has been taken care of.

After Loki, she's the oldest warframe with the least changes done to her abilities.

 

Apart from the unrooting of her non ult abilities I don't agree with much, if anything. It's not that those changes are bad design wise, but they're simply not needed, and worse, would fundamentally change how banshee feels. There are much simple and effective ways to bring her kit into 2021 without sacrificing her uniqueness, like a grounded ult, or a lack of general gameplay functionality for silence.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Larena said:

Stacking Sonar is like, basically pointless. So I dont think losing it is a huge deal, and the other changes seem good. 

Considering I recently and unintentionally got my Low MMR friend to hit for seven digits using the non-Prime Scindo, yeah no. Losing Sonar stacking is a big deal, and not something I recommend. Its ability to make basically any weapon viable is on par with Chroma's damage boosts or something. In fact, Sonar stacking is more of an ultimate than her ultimate!

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1 hour ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

She really doesn't need that many changes, especially not to her ult. I don't want to see the stationary nuke gone just because the entire game now geared towards spamming bullet jumps and rolling. Instead of homogenizing the playstyle with the warframe average, the drawbacks should stay but get rewarded with a bigger potential to exert power over the game. All of Banshee's skills are viable by design, and all that is needed is to enhance what they do in order to actually make her as fun as a lot of the newer warframes. She's already plenty powerful, but a total lack of any ability interplay or her non ult abilities rooting her do show just how little she has been taken care of.

After Loki, she's the oldest warframe with the least changes done to her abilities.

 

Apart from the unrooting of her non ult abilities I don't agree with much, if anything. It's not that those changes are bad design wise, but they're simply not needed, and worse, would fundamentally change how banshee feels. There are much simple and effective ways to bring her kit into 2021 without sacrificing her uniqueness, like a grounded ult, or a lack of general gameplay functionality for silence.

Hmm, may I ask why you think Soundquake fits in her kit though?
The way I see it, Sonar, Sonic Boom and Silence all play around a kind of mobile, semisneaky and shooty Warframe. Soundquake, on the other hand, is a button to stand still and nuke enemies continuously (in lower areas - on higher levels it's either unused or just used for the stunlock - or as a trolling tool due to only tickling enemies later on). So not only doesn't it really fit her other abilities, it's also compleletely uninteractive - not just with her kit, but also generally so.
DE has already, for good reason, removed a bunch of AFK-encouraging skills - but it beats me why they left Soundquake as is, to be honest. And to add to that; why do you wanna keep it like that too?

That said, I do have to confess that I am less enthusiastic about my particular change for Soundquake than I am of the rest of the changes - but even so I did try to at least make it fit a bit better with the rest of her kit. If I had my way, I'd probably change her ultimate entirely so it's something far more complimentary to her other 3 skills and passive, but I was at least trying to respect her current kit (and trailer) as much as possible, even with that intention.
The one thing I feel just needs to go is the AFK-friendly design it has right now though. Or at the very least, let her do something interactive while it's quaking away, but even so, just doing that still retains the AFK-friendly base mechanic of the skill.

Also I can't really see how my suggestions would fundamentally change Banshee though (Soundquake aside)? Her 1, 2 and 3 would remain mostly the same (especially her 1 and 3), and her passive would make her sneakier, sure - but isn't that kind of the original intention for her anyway, just poorly executed (at least when playing multiplayer)?

At the very least, I'm glad you agreed on letting her move while casting her first 3 skills.

8 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Considering I recently and unintentionally got my Low MMR friend to hit for seven digits using the non-Prime Scindo, yeah no. Losing Sonar stacking is a big deal, and not something I recommend. Its ability to make basically any weapon viable is on par with Chroma's damage boosts or something. In fact, Sonar stacking is more of an ultimate than her ultimate!

And how is hitting 7 digits number in such a simple way something that's considered GOOD to keep in the game? It's these kind of extreme values that can completely invalidate any kind of intended difficulty in the game. If the game is EVER supposed to get a smidge of numerical balance, these kind of ridiculous extremes really need to go.

And to clarify: I personally don't REALLY care if the stacking is kept alongside the QoL-ideas - but I still don't think it's a wise decision to keep it.

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7 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

And how is hitting 7 digits number in such a simple way something that's considered GOOD to keep in the game? It's these kind of extreme values that can completely invalidate any kind of intended difficulty in the game. If the game is EVER supposed to get a smidge of numerical balance, these kind of ridiculous extremes really need to go.

And to clarify: I personally don't REALLY care if the stacking is kept alongside the QoL-ideas - but I still don't think it's a wise decision to keep it.

While this was in non-elite Sanctuary Onslaught and thus killing enemies to spread more Sonars was quite easy, it would be an entirely different beast had the enemies been of any significant survivability. Sonar's augment only helps you if you can kill enemies in the first place, and while I haven't run the exact math, I can imagine that just straight-up spamming Sonars until you get enough overlapping ones to achieve anything resembling extreme values costs enough energy that, compared to what some other frames can achieve for the same price, it's damn reasonable.

For example, Savage Silence Ash can also reach such numbers with way less energy or basically no setup whatsoever. Meanwhile, Banshee has to start from scratch once or twice per minute. Also, if we can have Splinter Storm stacking, we sure as hell can have Sonar stacking - the latter has an effective max due to duration, while the former hasn't.

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25 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

And how is hitting 7 digits number in such a simple way something that's considered GOOD to keep in the game? It's these kind of extreme values that can completely invalidate any kind of intended difficulty in the game. If the game is EVER supposed to get a smidge of numerical balance, these kind of ridiculous extremes really need to go.

My take on it is it's definitely not healthy.  But in a game full of busted things with larger impacts, I'd rather keep my busted Banshee meanwhile, tyvm.

It's like banning junk food.  Sure, I can agree that getting rid of it would be a huge net positive.  But if you're just going to come after my little esoteric favorite candy--salty licorice, by the way💖--and leave Nestle, PepsiCo, Mars Inc., etcetera alone...

Back Off Abc GIF by The Bachelor

(Not entirely serious.  But I am a little bit serious😉 )

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5 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

My take on it is it's definitely not healthy.  But in a game full of busted things with larger impacts, I'd rather keep my busted Banshee meanwhile, tyvm.

Yeah, that's a good way of summarizing it. There's enough bonkers stuff in this game that fixing this first (or without fixing the rest) would just be a huge slap in the face. It'd be like nerfing Excal's exalted before Baruuk's.

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Instead of removing stacking altogether, how about we introduce diminishing returns? Say one weakpoint gives x5 multiplier, a second weakpoint appeared on the same spot now the effective damage multiplier is 7.5x instead of x10. I know infinite stacking is stupid, but introducing a soft cap instead of removing it altogether is a good middle ground here.

 

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9 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Say one weakpoint gives x5 multiplier, a second weakpoint appeared on the same spot now the effective damage multiplier is 7.5x instead of x10.

FYI, it stacks multiplicatively, not additively. x5, x25, x125, x625, etc. Is it busted good? Yeah, but it's not like that's a revolutionary thing in Warframe. Is it that busted, though? Considering that it's limited by duration, chance, players hitting the right stacked spots, and respawning enemies starting out without Sonars - eh, not quite.

9 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I know infinite stacking is stupid

Hi Gara, hello Saryn, greetings Breach Surge Garuda...

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18 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

While this was in non-elite Sanctuary Onslaught and thus killing enemies to spread more Sonars was quite easy, it would be an entirely different beast had the enemies been of any significant survivability. Sonar's augment only helps you if you can kill enemies in the first place, and while I haven't run the exact math, I can imagine that just straight-up spamming Sonars until you get enough overlapping ones to achieve anything resembling extreme values costs enough energy that, compared to what some other frames can achieve for the same price, it's damn reasonable.

For example, Savage Silence Ash can also reach such numbers with way less energy or basically no setup whatsoever. Meanwhile, Banshee has to start from scratch once or twice per minute. Also, if we can have Splinter Storm stacking, we sure as hell can have Sonar stacking - the latter has an effective max due to duration, while the former hasn't.

 

18 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

My take on it is it's definitely not healthy.  But in a game full of busted things with larger impacts, I'd rather keep my busted Banshee meanwhile, tyvm.

It's like banning junk food.  Sure, I can agree that getting rid of it would be a huge net positive.  But if you're just going to come after my little esoteric favorite candy--salty licorice, by the way💖--and leave Nestle, PepsiCo, Mars Inc., etcetera alone...

Back Off Abc GIF by The Bachelor

(Not entirely serious.  But I am a little bit serious😉 )

 

18 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Yeah, that's a good way of summarizing it. There's enough bonkers stuff in this game that fixing this first (or without fixing the rest) would just be a huge slap in the face. It'd be like nerfing Excal's exalted before Baruuk's.

You're making good points - but I'd like to see some of the other "bonkers stuff" toned down too (i.e. "two wrongs don't make a right"). But all things considered, outright removing the stacking is probably not the way to go after all. Which leads me to ...

 

14 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Instead of removing stacking altogether, how about we introduce diminishing returns? Say one weakpoint gives x5 multiplier, a second weakpoint appeared on the same spot now the effective damage multiplier is 7.5x instead of x10. I know infinite stacking is stupid, but introducing a soft cap instead of removing it altogether is a good middle ground here.

 

,,, ^ that. Or well, sort of.

As @Perfectly_Framed_Waifu points out, it stacks multiplicatively, not additively, which is why I consider it to be so crazy. Making it stack additively, rather than multiplicatively gives it a natural diminishing return, all while allowing it to still stack in some way. That means, instead of x5, x25, x125 and so on, you'd get x5, x10, x15 and so on.

That's a good compromise, no?

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7 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

That means, instead of x5, x25, x125 and so on, you'd get x5, x10, x15 and so on.

That's a good compromise, no?

It'd be a fair nerf, I'd say. There's not a whole lot of stuff in the game where you need a x625 multiplier and a x20 won't do it - probably just lvl. 9999 runs or something. Even then, you're probably bringing something along that cuts down the effective health of enemies, like Slash vs Grineer.

However...

By the same token, there's an equally low amount of stuff where a x625 multiplier would be broken but a x20 wouldn't, so we're right back at me not seeing what the problem here is. Sure, a couple of Sonars can make an unmodded Lex one-shot enemies on Hydron, but I could also just bring an Acid Shells Sobek and one-shot the entire map. Sure, a few Sonars lets me one-shot Steel Path enemies, but so does any half-decent melee, in particular when you use any basic damage buff ability.

Would a Sonar nerf actually make anything mention-worthy harder, or would it just narrow down the number of viable options? Would it benefit the game, in practice? Or would it just take away the fun of seeing huge-ass overkill numbers?

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3 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

It'd be a fair nerf, I'd say. There's not a whole lot of stuff in the game where you need a x625 multiplier and a x20 won't do it - probably just lvl. 9999 runs or something. Even then, you're probably bringing something along that cuts down the effective health of enemies, like Slash vs Grineer.

However...

By the same token, there's an equally low amount of stuff where a x625 multiplier would be broken but a x20 wouldn't, so we're right back at me not seeing what the problem here is. Sure, a couple of Sonars can make an unmodded Lex one-shot enemies on Hydron, but I could also just bring an Acid Shells Sobek and one-shot the entire map. Sure, a few Sonars lets me one-shot Steel Path enemies, but so does any half-decent melee, in particular when you use any basic damage buff ability.

Would a Sonar nerf actually make anything mention-worthy harder, or would it just narrow down the number of viable options? Would it benefit the game, in practice? Or would it just take away the fun of seeing huge-ass overkill numbers?

At the moment, there's probably not any big reason to nerf it, I guess?

But consider another Vay Hek raid boss coming back in the future - which was easily trivilaized via Sonar stacking shenanigans. I think it's better to "futureproof" abilities like that from the getgo.

I mean, a 20x multiplier is still really high, while 625x is just ridiculous. I guess I could make a counterpoint by saying: If there's currently no need for such immense power, is there evenb any point in keeping it, when all it can do is trivialize potential future "intended to be hard" content?

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17 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

But consider another Vay Hek raid boss coming back in the future - which was easily trivilaized via Sonar stacking shenanigans. I think it's better to "futureproof" abilities like that from the getgo.

For bosses and other such intentionally difficult content, there's more direct ways to combat certain abilities rather than nerfing them outright. The prime example has to be Limbo's Stasis, although that is an ability I think needs a nerf/rework for multiple reasons, mainly it being so all-or-nothing. Stasis is stupid good, but there's also a whole bunch of stuff that Stasis either doesn't work against, or has diminishing returns against. Another comparison can be drawn to status effects, where bosses now have a lowered max stack cap - the same could be done with Sonar against bosses.

24 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

If there's currently no need for such immense power, is there evenb any point in keeping it, when all it can do is trivialize potential future "intended to be hard" content?

Having replied to the potential trivialization problem by giving some currently implemented examples, all that's left is the question "Why keep it if it's not needed?". The answer to that one is quite simple, and it's the same reason why I run Smite Infusion on my Mirage: Because extreme overkill is hella fun.

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2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

You're making good points - but I'd like to see some of the other "bonkers stuff" toned down too (i.e. "two wrongs don't make a right").

Two wrongs don't make a right, but neither do one, 1000 or 999.  The last number is roughly how many wrongs would remain after a Sonar nerf. 

Look, if DE ever does a Great Damage Stat Squishening, or even a Really Not That Great Damage Stat Squooshening, I fully see the need for Sonar to be squished too.   And squished hard. 

Until then, or until it gets buffed to affect more targets that matter, or until Banshees start overrunning the game like swarms of damage cap-crazed locusts, players having fun  with the current version aren't doing the game any harm that I can see.

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