Josh Strife Hayes and Warframe

[mega_lova_nia]

So i've been watching a dude named Josh Strife Hayes, a guy who makes reviews on popular mmorpgs. The videos that made me interested however are his reviews on bad mmorpgs, basically mmorpgs that are considered objectively bad. This made me remember about warframe who has some similar recurring patterns that are prevalent in those mmorpgs that he considered bad. So i talked to him about this game and he told me that he is interested in playing warframe in the future.

Let's just say, if he did end up playing warframe and reviewed it, i really do hope our game don't end up in "Worst of MMOs"

(not to mention our game isn't exactly an mmo so...)

[Loza03]

There's certainly some bad habits WF should kick, but it's ultimately an MMO-lite rather than a full MMO. There's some things that 'good' MMO's have that are somewhat incompatible with WF's core gameplay. Consider how, even in the most team-based game, Healer/Tank/DPS, the classic MMO holy Trinity, has to be fundamentally rewritten in several key ways. That sort of thing is all over Warframe.

[o0Despair0o]

6 hours ago, mega_lova_nia said:

i really do hope our game don't end up in "Worst of MMOs"

(not to mention our game isn't exactly an mmo so...)

There it is, you jinxed it.

If there's one thing youtubers are good at, it's jumping to conclusions.

[(PSN)kadeliza740]

Honestly like his series so far but I doubt he will even touch Warframe, WF is far more action orientated than the average MMO, far to different to really be classed as one. Aside from being multiplayer and having a large playerbase there is not much else that would attract someone who like FFXIV or WOW, and whilst that isn't the only sort he has looked at I do think WF is far more 'successful' than anything he might care to add to his series.

 

Doesn't mean the problems games like Warframe or Elite Dangerous (and no doubt many others) do not exist, its just an uphill struggle for the players to get the devs to see/do something about the problems  that are here.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

Maybe he should critique the game, especially if he has a substantially large audience. High profile figures tend to catch DE's attention more so over longtime players like Jizo, Rahetalius or Reaper Hunter, which is honestly a shame.

[Corvid]

Er... you might want to wait until the video's actually out. Especially since the title is part of a series and not reflective of his actual opinion of the game covered.

[WNxMatthew]

You did it! He reviewed Warframe!

[[DE]Kenneth]

I just watched it as well.

[(PSN)kadeliza740]

Yep he sure did didn't he.

[Loza03]

"A mess of feature creep with some of the best gameplay I've ever seen".

 

 

Yeah, honestly, that seems about right.

[Kontrollo]

Watched it as well, and I guess overall it hits the points very well.

But early game is different from later in the game. In short: You know, when all the spam starts, and things you'd think should be more orderly are all over the place.

[Sloan441]

Only vaguely aware of who this guy is. 

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

"A mess of feature creep with some of the best gameplay I've ever seen".

Pretty apt, though. 

I've described Warframe to friends as the Swamp Castle of video games. 

In fact, just last night the subject of WF came up at work. The one thing that really stood out when you first encountered the game was the visuals. "What the hell am I looking at?!?" That is pretty much everyone's initial reaction, quickly followed by, "Who...what...uh, what am I fighting? And why? And how does a head fit in that helmet?". 

All questions answered in good time and that's another thing about the game that inspires one to play--and we still really don't have all the answers.  

[General-Pacman]

"Lubed up alien body builders killing things" must be one of the best descriptions of Warframe I've heard in a long time.

[Tesseract7777]

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

"A mess of feature creep with some of the best gameplay I've ever seen".

 

 

Yeah, honestly, that seems about right.

Yeah, that's a pretty good summation actually. 

[OniDax]

Well he really didn't have much to say about the game, did he? That was a very light "critique" and one based on gameplay that stopped at Jackal. Are all his critiques like that?

Also, with him being familiar with the "registered losers" comment, I find it hard to believe he wasn't already familiar with the game before starting his work on this video.

[nebfab]

He also streamed WF for a few hours, that vod was... 3 hours of all the newbie mistakes, then he kills Stalker like he's nothing, still using barely modded starting gear and without quite realizing what he did. :D

[SneakyErvin]

Looked through it and while I agree with him on the feature creep, it is afterall an 8 year old game. I also cant recall any mysterious creeped features from the early part of the game he plays. So not quite sure how he can have experienced any such feeling so early on.

There are quests, junctions, modding, relics and foundry. None of them being hidden exactly if you take just a moment to look through the esc menu or the star chart and the mission tab that is tied to it. And since the person seems to be an MMO player, this concept should not be alien to him even if WF isnt an MMO. I came to WF from MMOs and it all felt natural to me and I did exactly what I do in those when I start out. 

edit: I gotta say his scoring of WF was fair though.

[nebfab]

39 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Looked through it and while I agree with him on the feature creep, it is afterall an 8 year old game. I also cant recall any mysterious creeped features from the early part of the game he plays. So not quite sure how he can have experienced any such feeling so early on.

There are quests, junctions, modding, relics and foundry. None of them being hidden exactly if you take just a moment to look through the esc menu or the star chart and the mission tab that is tied to it. And since the person seems to be an MMO player, this concept should not be alien to him even if WF isnt an MMO. I came to WF from MMOs and it all felt natural to me and I did exactly what I do in those when I start out. 

edit: I gotta say his scoring of WF was fair though.

I think part of it is him trying to see it from a true newbie's perspective, part of it is that modding/leveling/forma'ing actually aren't explained well and have a lot of "call rabbit a smeerp" terminology even experienced gamer would have no way of knowing  (it's not XP, it's affinity, it's not levelling mods, it's fusing them,  etc. ) which is cool worldbuilding-wise but makes a player wonder what's relevant and what's technobabble.

 

Then there's stuff like enemies having levels but your own frame and gear having ranks, a mostly unrelated thing, which is very different from most games. Or mod rarity and their usefulness only having a rather vague relationship.

 

And open worlds pushed as part of the early experience without being quite balanced for it.

[SneakyErvin]

22 minutes ago, nebfab said:

I think part of it is him trying to see it from a true newbie's perspective, part of it is that modding/leveling/forma'ing actually aren't explained well and have a lot of "call rabbit a smeerp" terminology even experienced gamer would have no way of knowing  (it's not XP, it's affinity, it's not levelling mods, it's fusing them,  etc. ) which is cool worldbuilding-wise but makes a player wonder what's relevant and what's technobabble.

 

Then there's stuff like that whole problem enemies having levels but your own frame and gear having [i]ranks[/i], a mostly unrelated thing.

 

And open worlds pushed as part of the early experience without being quite balanced for it.

For me someone would have to be completely new to gaming to run into those issues. Anyone with rpg experience of any kind should find their way pretty quickly. It isnt like WF is the first or last rpg with different names for things. It is really no more confusing that a game calls xp affinity than one calling mana something like spirit or power, or in this case energy. We look at it, see how it interact and then it is the same no matter what it is called.

Sure, enemey levels vs mastery is a bit odd, but nowdays there are so many different power level systems out there that it really doesnt matter. It's in the end something you'll have to get the feel for, since in some games a level difference of 1 can be deadly, in others you simply have colors that indicate if they are at, above or below your level and then another color that indicates if they are x levels above, or below. But within that you may have 10 levels between at and far above your level, yet only indicated by a single color change. Then in some your actual level matters squat and you rely completely on a power level score on your gear and aslong as you keep the difference between your power level and the enemy's the same, the game will always feel as if the difficulty never changes.

No problems for me with open worlds, it isnt different than wandering into an "oopsie" zone in any other rpg and getting the hell outa there asap. Just look at WoW where Redridge Mountains borders to Black Rock and the Forsaken starting areas borders to Plague Lands etc. I made "oopsie" trips into all possible high level areas in that game since I could literally walk there at any given time.

[--END--Rikutatis]

I watch Josh's videos occasionally. He always dislikes sandbox games that just throw you into the world and expect you  to learn through experimenting, exploration, etc. And let's be honest, few ppl actually learn by exploration in those games, most just resort to learning from other players, guides and the wiki. Which is exactly WF's case. Personally I dont agree with his position, since I love sandbox games, and dont mind doing wiki/web research on games I'm heavily invested in, but I can understand where he's coming from. 

Also "A mess of feature creep with some of the best gameplay I've ever seen" was incredibly accurate lol. Like damn, he really nailed WF there in one sentence despite playing so little.

I'll be honest though, if he had played more until late game he'd probably have trashed the game a lot harder. He praised the scaling difficulty, challenging and engaging gameplay. But all of that evaporates in late game with the ridiculous power creep, god builds and "press 1 button to clear the room while being immortal" gameplay. 

[OniDax]

5 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I watch Josh's videos occasionally. He always dislikes sandbox games that just throw you into the world and expect you  to learn through experimenting, exploration, etc. And let's be honest, few ppl actually learn by exploration in those games, most just resort to learning from other players, guides and the wiki. Which is exactly WF's case. Personally I dont agree with his position, since I love sandbox games, and dont mind doing wiki/web research on games I'm heavily invested in, but I can understand where he's coming from. 

Also "A mess of feature creep with some of the best gameplay I've ever seen" was incredibly accurate lol. Like damn, he really nailed WF there in one sentence despite playing so little.

I'll be honest though, if he had played more until late game he'd probably have trashed the game a lot harder. He praised the scaling difficulty, challenging and engaging gameplay. But all of that evaporates in late game with the ridiculous power creep, god builds and "press 1 button to clear the room while being immortal" gameplay. 

Also, his statement about Warframe making you feel cool almost sounded like he's never played any other game that makes you feel cool. I guess if you play a bunch of MMORPGs, which tend not to be AAA and not very in-depth with their combat systems (almost all stat-driven, not animation-driven), you play Warframe and think it's the best MMORPG.

His entire "critique" seemed very superficial, and given he didn't play the game long at all, certainly not long enough to accurately critique the entire game, it just seems like he was going through the motions. The video felt more like an elaborate excuse for the faults of the early game rather than a true critique of the game. And given his comments about "registered losers" (how would someone unfamiliar with the game come up with that joke?), it kinda feels like another sponsored review, which we know DE has done in the past.

[Tesseract7777]

1 hour ago, OniDax said:

Also, his statement about Warframe making you feel cool almost sounded like he's never played any other game that makes you feel cool. I guess if you play a bunch of MMORPGs, which tend not to be AAA and not very in-depth with their combat systems (almost all stat-driven, not animation-driven), you play Warframe and think it's the best MMORPG.

His entire "critique" seemed very superficial, and given he didn't play the game long at all, certainly not long enough to accurately critique the entire game, it just seems like he was going through the motions. The video felt more like an elaborate excuse for the faults of the early game rather than a true critique of the game. And given his comments about "registered losers" (how would someone unfamiliar with the game come up with that joke?), it kinda feels like another sponsored review, which we know DE has done in the past.

Interesting perspective... some very good points you make. 

[Corvid]

17 hours ago, nebfab said:

it's not levelling mods, it's fusing them,

This is a case where the term was grandfathered in, since the previous iteration of the fusion system involved directly combining mods rather than melting them down into a universal upgrade currency.

11 hours ago, OniDax said:

it kinda feels like another sponsored review, which we know DE has done in the past.

Disagree with someone all you like, but don't impugn their integrity unless you have extremely solid evidence. It's poor form to say the least. "Registered Losers" is hardly an obscure reference considering how often the community likes to bandy it about (it's exceedingly rare for a video or article discussing the game to not have it show up in the comments at least once), so frankly I'm not surprised he's aware of it.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Welp. In the middle of watching it, and all that's going through my mind as he says he's really enjoying the gameplay is that the community will eventually convince him that maximum efficiency to his own detriment of enjoyment is in his best interest.

edit: Finished the video. What he said resonated super strongly with me; the sense of feeling like an awesome space(pirate)ninja that I'm feeling to this day, the overwhelming mechanics and "So what on earth am I doing now?" regarding the lore at the start. Personally I was glad that I didn't spoiler myself as I progressed through the game, since there were some really pleasant surprises to find that wouldn't have had the impact they did if I'd known before hand, but I can respect that such obtuseness is what can make or break the game for others

[nebfab]

16 hours ago, OniDax said:

it kinda feels like another sponsored review, which we know DE has done in the past.

Nah, it's pretty similar to his other vids in the series, except for him not implying he's not going to play this ever again, or try to show the endgame content because no other video on the internet does (which is obviously not applicable.)

For someone made YouTube-niche famous by roasting bad video games, he's actually quite positive, and if he finds something good in a game he "sells" it with the same flowery and exaggerated language he uses to make the stuff he doesn't like look even more ridiculous.

I mean it could be all sponsored, obscure Russian and Korean devs all paying him the cut because his "worst MMO" videos are the best word-of-mouth publicity they ever had... But I doubt it.

 

21 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I watch Josh's videos occasionally. He always dislikes sandbox games

He kinda liked The New World though (Witticism about combat system being "Dark Souls ordered from Wish" notwithstanding.) But, yea, he\s usually extra-harsh on those.