AbyssalWyrm Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 15 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: This is all fine, but doesn't prevent the fact that ultimately, the protest was against a feature that would have made it easier for certain players to progress through Conclave, which would not have harmed Conclave players or players looking to progress further through play (including that one player you mention). If the devs didn't like players "skipping any part of the content", they would not have released Universal Medallions in the first place, whose impact on progression was dramatically overrated given their rarity and tiny Standing increase a pop. "It's much easier to see a mote in another's eye than a beam in our own" describes the situation I brought up exactly, as whichever vocal minority caught DE's ear acted purely out of the desire to make progression more tedious for anyone who didn't enjoy the gameplay in Conclave, but was still interested in some of the exclusive skins, rather than build towards anything positive for themselves or for others. I can sympathize with the PvP community in Warframe not being generally catered to, but the solution to that would be to improve PvP content, not hurt anyone else, and playing the victim to that intent is purely malicious. It doesn't make any less dishonest to talk about DE catering to "a handful of very vocal complainers" when it was just 1 single player who might not even have had that much of an incidence on the decision (as you and others have installed) while totally omitting that players celebrating early about being able to get conclave rewards without playing conclave may have also played a role in there, but it's always much easier to point fingers at one guy than recognizing mistakes, and that's what has been happening on any talk when a similar topic where the Universal Medallions can be quoted appears. With that out of the way, i want to thank you for clarifying, and won't deny that you're right on both sides -the player complaining and that group celebrating- being nothing but small minorities on each side that managed to influence DE's decision, which is just sad keeping in mind how often they cater to these loud minorities that usually don't even represent the general feel/view of the subcommunities they seem/claim to represent and end up putting said subcommunities under a bad light. Finally, i wholeheartedly agree on the solution being to improve PvP (there's endless feedback on how to do it from the perspectove of both, PvE and PvP players on the matter) and better community management IF that ever got to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 24 minutes ago, AbyssalWyrm said: It doesn't make any less dishonest to talk about DE catering to "a handful of very vocal complainers" when it was just 1 single player who might not even have had that much of an incidence on the decision (as you and others have installed) while totally omitting that players celebrating early about being able to get conclave rewards without playing conclave may have also played a role in there, but it's always much easier to point fingers at one guy than recognizing mistakes, and that's what has been happening on any talk when a similar topic where the Universal Medallions can be quoted appears. What is dishonest is you trying to foist a false narrative onto this situation by painting me as a bad faith actor in the face of your own pure conjectures. "May have also played a role" is simply not good enough when you're trying to present your alternative interpretation as fact, much less attack my character when I cited a well-known Twitter interaction that shows a pretty direct relationship of cause and effect -- a player complained about the new feature somehow being an insult to the Conclave community and the suffering they went through, and Steve immediately promised change to make sure future players would keep suffering in the same way. 24 minutes ago, AbyssalWyrm said: With that out of the way, i want to thank you for clarifying, and won't deny that you're right on both sides -the player complaining and that group celebrating- being nothing but small minorities on each side that managed to influence DE's decision, which is just sad keeping in mind how often they cater to these loud minorities that usually don't even represent the general feel/view of the subcommunities they seem/claim to represent and end up putting said subcommunities under a bad light. Finally, i wholeheartedly agree on the solution being to improve PvP (there's endless feedback on how to do it from the perspectove of both, PvE and PvP players on the matter) and better community management IF that ever got to happen. I am glad that we agree. Really, DE should listen to the right people and for the right reasons, as the end goal should be to make the game better for all present and future players. This should mean listening more to players who criticize the game constructively, even if it may hurt some egos, and less to players who wish to uphold an unhealthy status quo purely for selfish reasons, even as they stand to benefit from further developments to Warframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbyssalWyrm Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 3 hours ago, Teridax68 said: What is dishonest is you trying to foist a false narrative onto this situation by painting me as a bad faith actor in the face of your own pure conjectures. "May have also played a role" is simply not good enough when you're trying to present your alternative interpretation as fact, much less attack my character when I cited a well-known Twitter interaction that shows a pretty direct relationship of cause and effect -- a player complained about the new feature somehow being an insult to the Conclave community and the suffering they went through, and Steve immediately promised change to make sure future players would keep suffering in the same way. My bad, i completely forgot that devs don't hang around in the subreddit, making it completely impossible for them to have seen such posts. 3 hours ago, Teridax68 said: I am glad that we agree. Really, DE should listen to the right people and for the right reasons, as the end goal should be to make the game better for all present and future players. This should mean listening more to players who criticize the game constructively, even if it may hurt some egos, and less to players who wish to uphold an unhealthy status quo purely for selfish reasons, even as they stand to benefit from further developments to Warframe. Yup, but then we get to the question: who are the right people? Old players? New ones? That part of the playerbase with atichiphobia? Players who desire challenge? Players? Investors? Nobody and Steve turns warframe development into an autocracy? Or do they keep trying to listen to everyone at the same time and failing to deliver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidArkhangel Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 hace 12 minutos, AbyssalWyrm dijo: Yup, but then we get to the question: who are the right people? Old players? New ones? That part of the playerbase with atichiphobia? Players who desire challenge? Players? Investors? Nobody and Steve turns warframe development into an autocracy? Or do they keep trying to listen to everyone at the same time and failing to deliver? I think the real problem is there are many places where you can post feedback, there should be a single place (forums for that matter) where players could debate about the game and maybe come up with a solution. That way it will focus both DE and players' attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)anansispiderPS Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 On 2021-08-01 at 1:11 PM, SneakyErvin said: Looked through it and while I agree with him on the feature creep, it is afterall an 8 year old game. I also cant recall any mysterious creeped features from the early part of the game he plays. So not quite sure how he can have experienced any such feeling so early on. There are quests, junctions, modding, relics and foundry. None of them being hidden exactly if you take just a moment to look through the esc menu or the star chart and the mission tab that is tied to it. And since the person seems to be an MMO player, this concept should not be alien to him even if WF isnt an MMO. I came to WF from MMOs and it all felt natural to me and I did exactly what I do in those when I start out. edit: I gotta say his scoring of WF was fair though. The feature creep is pretty evident really early because you can access a bunch of stuff that wasn't made when the staring experience was made. The open worlds are accessible, for example. Actually coming across them could be done in a similar way to the initial quest. But...the problem is that's something that I might expect from an MMO. This ain't that. Though he seems well aware of that. But I understand the preference. (To be clear, the reason I expect it more in an MMO is because of design intent etc) But there's nothing wrong with there being feature creep. And the stuff not being hidden doesn't mean it isn't a bit obtuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OniDax Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 On 2021-08-10 at 6:39 PM, Cerasium said: Not to nitpick, but "parastitc" and "symbiotic" are opposite concepts. Parasitic - one party benefits at the expense of the other which contributes Symbiotic - both partys benefit and contribute to eachother "Parastic symbiosis" is an oxymoron. Actually look it up first (links in spoilers tags): Spoiler https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/symbiosis It's not just a mutually beneficial relationship. That's an old definition that now describes only mutualistic symbiosis: Spoiler https://www.etymonline.com/word/symbiosis Another source, with references: Spoiler https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2020.00014/full Because the Greek origin only means living together, symbiosis has taken on its original meaning, and there are different types of symbiosis: Spoiler mutualism commensalism parasitism (so, yeah, not "parasiticism") competition predation and herbivory https://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-symbiosis.html More resources: Spoiler https://www.ck12.org/book/cbse_biology_book_class_xii/section/17.2/ https://www.natureconservancy.ca/en/blog/archive/parasitism-the-dark-side-of.html https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.0028-646x.2001.00210.x https://untamedscience.com/biology/ecology/basics-of-symbiosis/ https://wildlifeact.com/blog/symbiosis-commensialism-mutualism-parasitism-neutralism-competition-predation/ https://jackwestin.com/resources/mcat-content/growth-and-physiology-of-prokaryotic-cells/parasitic-and-symbiotic (and actually click on the link, don't just read the URL) Hopefully those are enough references to inform you of the broader meaning and examples of symbiosis. As for parasitic content, I'd say most of Warframe's side content is commensal. Most side content doesn't really hurt the game, but it doesn't help the game either. It's just there. But larger content like the open worlds and even Railjack are parasitic, imo, because they take up a lot more space, yet don't benefit the core gameplay experience (tileset gameplay). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CephalonCarnage Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 13 hours ago, Alpheus said: So yea, I laughed out loud and closed the window when that part of the video came up because it's woefully uninformative that is unusual. Though not to be expected, you'd think Steam badges would occur only after steam was being used, and the flag that sets them woulnd't apply if the game wasn't run via steam. So its a bug that the API returns "failed" and the game ignores it and carries on as if Steam is now updated. I think very few people know this. TBH I imagine most people who play on steam do so right from the start, and those who start playing it outside steam do not later install it on steam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)N7_Dredgen Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 12 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said: Plus, in Warframe, it does not take 100hrs for the story to get good Exactly this. Had a nice argument on Reddit because people think it takes 100 hours to reach Second Dream. My gf has no gaming experience, and managed to beat SD in 23 hours on her profile. I refuse to believe that any player, or game reviewer, is so damn unintelligent, that after finishing the first junction, nothing in their brain would tell them that "More Junctions = More Quests." It's literally a basic inference anybody with a grade 3 or higher education should be able to make and you are forced to do Junctions very early on unless taxid around. Apparently though some people need bells, whistles and flashing lights to figure out even the most basic of concepts. Tbh it's probably best those players get filtered out. To me there is just something sad about the fact that my non-gaming GF was able to do what this guy is paid to do in 1/4 of the time. Don't get me wrong, Warframe's early game is FAR from flawless... but there really is a certain point where you can't help stupid... I'd say this is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fl_3 Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 Why are people so hot on focussing on his second video? It's irrelevant. Games don't suddenly get good after 100 hours, we all know that, a game gets no better that it is at 10 hours, 50 hours whatever. I totally agree with what he's saying and there are plenty of games that I've walked away from because they just aren't fun no matter how long you play them. Are people getting bent out of shape because he used Warframe footage in his video? would there be all this "wah wah" if he had used Bless Online instead? No there wouldn't. I watched the 100 hours video and I totally agree with everything that was said in it. I wonder if the reason he used Warframe footage in that video was because of the people watching his stream who asked him to play more Warframe, and then, when he said no demanded he play more Warframe and then after he said no again tried to come up with excuses why he should play more Warframe like "It gets better after 100 hours" People need to realise that you can't bully people into playing a game if they're not interested, all you do is turn them against the game, so if he was interested in playing more Warframe he sure as hell isn't now. Score one own goal to the Warframe fanbase, and the loss of a streamer who would advertise the game while playing potentially bringing in more players to DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 7 hours ago, AbyssalWyrm said: My bad, i completely forgot that devs don't hang around in the subreddit, making it completely impossible for them to have seen such posts. The problem isn't that it's impossible for them to have seen those posts, the problem is that you have no evidence that they read, let alone based their decision on those posts. I, by contrast, showed a tweet where one of the lead developers responded directly to a player and promised the change we then saw. You can of course still suggest that those posts may have had an impact, but that still remains within the realm of conjecture. You don't get to present your conjecture as fact, now matter how much you want to believe in it, much less impugn the moral character of people who don't share your conjectural view of events. 7 hours ago, AbyssalWyrm said: Yup, but then we get to the question: who are the right people? Old players? New ones? That part of the playerbase with atichiphobia? Players who desire challenge? Players? Investors? Nobody and Steve turns warframe development into an autocracy? Or do they keep trying to listen to everyone at the same time and failing to deliver? Well, as mentioned above, I don't think it's purely a question of demographics (some old players are bitter and malicious, some new players are ignorant and ill-equipped to give appropriate feedback on certain content), but one of substance of feedback: constructive criticism should be listened to, while white-knighting and aimless dev-bashing should be not only ignored, but actively discouraged on these discussion spaces. That tweet should've been an easy example where Steve could've just rebutted the player and told them that no member of the Conclave community would lose anything with the inclusion of Universal Medallions, or simply ignored them. When it comes to certain specialized topics, I do think it makes sense to favor experts in those topics (I would rather ask someone with 1000+ hours in Conclave for feedback on how to fine-tune its balance than someone who's only played three matches, for example), but when it comes to broad topics the approach I think should be a mix of empathy and critical thinking, regardless of demographic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 8 hours ago, (PSN)anansispiderPS said: The feature creep is pretty evident really early because you can access a bunch of stuff that wasn't made when the staring experience was made. The open worlds are accessible, for example. Actually coming across them could be done in a similar way to the initial quest. But...the problem is that's something that I might expect from an MMO. This ain't that. Though he seems well aware of that. But I understand the preference. (To be clear, the reason I expect it more in an MMO is because of design intent etc) But there's nothing wrong with there being feature creep. And the stuff not being hidden doesn't mean it isn't a bit obtuse. In all honesty I expect it in an RPG, MMO or not. We know WF is a sandbox-progression game aswell, which means go do what you want where you want, handholding and direction doesnt really go hand in hand with it. Wow that was alot of hands in one sentence! But I agree that the open zones could be locked for longer. Locking PoE until you have the spoiler unlocked would be best, then have PoE access as the requirement to access Vallis and the Drift. And I'm not saying this because the open zones may pose a greater threat, I'm saying this so people that wanna know how to kill certain giants doesnt spoil their lore experience when looking it up and just going "oh so I cant fight that at all right now, I need the spoiler first and whatever that other thing is". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paranoicon Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 I love coming to this thread. Lovely stuff in here, and all so very tasty. I don't know what's my favorite. The people arguing against something he didn't say, because they felt he was making a claim he couldn't possibly be making, doubly so since he can't possibly have the information neccesary to make such claim. Or the people actively trying to discredit his experiences with the early game just because he, funnily enough, doesn't have 100+ hours of gameplay. It's all great, and I love it, and I don't want any of you to stop. Now, though, onto the new two videos themselves. As for the "100 hour" video, I'm pretty sure he was using Warframe footage because that is the game he has been playing as of late. Nothing more, nothing less. If not that, it's likely a bunch of users have told him some miscellaneous claim such as "it gets better later" or "you just have to play until you get to XYZ". Something that he, then, conflated with "it gets good after 100 hours" claim. And while he likely did this for the sake of time economy, and hitting two birds with one stone, is a little confusing, as it makes it seem like he is arguing against a point nobody made. I'm sure people made the point he's arguing against, though. Even though their choice of words might not necessarily have been what he expressed in the video. As for the "Parasite Mechanics" video, well... let's just say it opened my eyes to the way Warframe has been doing things over the years, and has helped me put a proper pin on why exactly I have issues with it. They never develop, they never iterate, they rarely improve. They always add more. And if the argument goes that they have to do that because player retention/player acquisition, hey, I'm not going to deny that. However, the fact that it has resulted in Warframe being an unnecessarily bloated game, plagued with parasite mechanics that are never adressed, is not something that can really be denied either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MouadSaqui Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 while I do agree with some points he mentioned in his videos, I think The problem is that he quickly jumped to conclusions... and I wish DE notices his videos and fix this huge Issue we have rightnow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traybong111 Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 8 hours ago, Teridax68 said: The problem isn't that it's impossible for them to have seen those posts, the problem is that you have no evidence that they read, let alone based their decision on those posts. I, by contrast, showed a tweet where one of the lead developers responded directly to a player and promised the change we then saw. You can of course still suggest that those posts may have had an impact, but that still remains within the realm of conjecture. You don't get to present your conjecture as fact, now matter how much you want to believe in it, much less impugn the moral character of people who don't share your conjectural view of events. Well, as mentioned above, I don't think it's purely a question of demographics (some old players are bitter and malicious, some new players are ignorant and ill-equipped to give appropriate feedback on certain content), but one of substance of feedback: constructive criticism should be listened to, while white-knighting and aimless dev-bashing should be not only ignored, but actively discouraged on these discussion spaces. That tweet should've been an easy example where Steve could've just rebutted the player and told them that no member of the Conclave community would lose anything with the inclusion of Universal Medallions, or simply ignored them. When it comes to certain specialized topics, I do think it makes sense to favor experts in those topics (I would rather ask someone with 1000+ hours in Conclave for feedback on how to fine-tune its balance than someone who's only played three matches, for example), but when it comes to broad topics the approach I think should be a mix of empathy and critical thinking, regardless of demographic. DE has never been comfortable with bridging PvP and PvE, because complete separation between those modes is what PvE players loudly demanded for godsdarned years since DE first introduced Conclave 2.0 in 2015. The twitter guy was just a scapegoat DE could grab as an excuse to do whatever they were going to do with unimeds in the first place. When there had been months and months of other more urgent Conclave-related feedback through discord/reddit/twitter/forums and that's the single particular cherry Steve decides to pick with his own hands? It should have been obvious, but I guess the idea of farming Disruption X months non-stop to reach some meaningless dated skins was enough to turn everyone's brains off. The fact that so many of this playerbase fell so hard for it to the point people kept harassing the guy for months over some pathetic pixels, and still bring him up as some confirmation of Conclave Gatekeeper boogeyman will never cease to inspire my utter contempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 23 minutes ago, traybong111 said: DE has never been comfortable with bridging PvP and PvE, because complete separation between those modes is what PvE players loudly demanded for godsdarned years since DE first introduced Conclave 2.0 in 2015. The twitter guy was just a scapegoat DE could grab as an excuse to do whatever they were going to do with unimeds in the first place. When there had been months and months of other more urgent Conclave-related feedback through discord/reddit/twitter/forums and that's the single particular cherry Steve decides to pick with his own hands? It should have been obvious, but I guess the idea of farming Disruption X months non-stop to reach some meaningless dated skins was enough to turn everyone's brains off. The fact that so many of this playerbase fell so hard for it to the point people kept harassing the guy for months over some pathetic pixels, and still bring him up as some confirmation of Conclave Gatekeeper boogeyman will never cease to inspire my utter contempt. So clearly, everyone's a fool because actually, DE have been playing this game of four-dimensional chess all along where they deliberately chose some random player to maliciously scapegoat because... reasons. Makes perfect sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joezone619 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 hard to say, DE certainly caught people's attention with this year's tennocon, according to steamcharts, warframe players are at an all-time high. i guess it really comes down to if DE can deliver good enough quality content. Looking at the past year and a half tho, it seems their focus is more on quantity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)JustJoshinEnt Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 On 2021-08-10 at 6:55 PM, Teridax68 said: This is all fine, but doesn't prevent the fact that ultimately, the protest was against a feature that would have made it easier for certain players to progress through Conclave, which would not have harmed Conclave players or players looking to progress further through play (including that one player you mention). If the devs didn't like players "skipping any part of the content", they would not have released Universal Medallions in the first place, whose impact on progression was dramatically overrated given their rarity and tiny Standing increase a pop. "It's much easier to see a mote in another's eye than a beam in our own" describes the situation I brought up exactly, as whichever vocal minority caught DE's ear acted purely out of the desire to make progression more tedious for anyone who didn't enjoy the gameplay in Conclave, but was still interested in some of the exclusive skins, rather than build towards anything positive for themselves or for others. I can sympathize with the PvP community in Warframe not being generally catered to, but the solution to that would be to improve PvP content, not hurt anyone else, and playing the victim to that intent is purely malicious. Progressing through Standing Rewards is NOT the same as Progressing through Conclave, though. A player being able to get many more rewards without ever actually getting better at Conclave gameplay itself, or indeed ever interfacing with it at all, is the issue I believe said players were having with the Medallions. Now, I, for one, would LOVE to see Conclave improved and really polished up a bit... I am by no means a PvP guy, but I DO see it as the "pinnacle of challenge" to a Tenno. After all, what offers a greater opponent than... another Tenno? And now we have Mechs, RJs, etc, to engage in battle with, outside of just our Warframes, that I could see Conclave adding quite a bit more depth to the PvP experience IF given the chance by the playerbase (and support by the devs). Right now, it's a pretty hefty gamble though that I'm assuming Shareholders don't want management taking with "their" money. (I know, I know, but it IS a business). Not defending that Medallions exist at all, to be clear... just that I can see how they don't help Conclave experience at all.. only acquisition of rewards, which is a different thing. Conclave, for the record, TOTALLY should include other rewards, like SP and Arbis do... Endo/Sculptures, more Credits, Kuva.... It wouldn't make-or-break the mode, but it'd help. 20 hours ago, (PSN)anansispiderPS said: The feature creep is pretty evident really early because you can access a bunch of stuff that wasn't made when the staring experience was made. The open worlds are accessible, for example. Actually coming across them could be done in a similar way to the initial quest. But...the problem is that's something that I might expect from an MMO. This ain't that. Though he seems well aware of that. But I understand the preference. To be fair, I'm on the fence here. I do see the value in allowing new players to "experience" the Open Worlds early on... After maps where they've found "little issue" in clearing mobs, they're not slapped with a wall they cannot overcome by merely spamming E. Eidolon, Vomvalysts, flying enemies (Dargyns), etc... It's bigger than them, and it humbles the average player, giving them new goals. Like Goku gettin' smacked around by Vegeta or Beerus (if you follow DragonBall). It tells the player "We know you THINK you're strong...but there's SO MUCH MORE!" The issue comes in that the game doesn't do a good job at telling the player "OKAY, that's enough! No more spoilers! Just a peek, is all! Now, you better go talk to the Lotus if you wanna know more about these beasts, these Eidolon... These... SENTIENTS." *Queue Natah*, etc.. Basically, just some hard locks and narrative changes would do the game good.... but there IS value in letting players "feel" in over their heads for a few moments. imho. 12 hours ago, Fl_3 said: Why are people so hot on focussing on his second video? It's irrelevant. Games don't suddenly get good after 100 hours, we all know that, a game gets no better that it is at 10 hours, 50 hours whatever. I totally agree with what he's saying and there are plenty of games that I've walked away from because they just aren't fun no matter how long you play them. Are people getting bent out of shape because he used Warframe footage in his video? would there be all this "wah wah" if he had used Bless Online instead? No there wouldn't. I watched the 100 hours video and I totally agree with everything that was said in it. I wonder if the reason he used Warframe footage in that video was because of the people watching his stream who asked him to play more Warframe, and then, when he said no demanded he play more Warframe and then after he said no again tried to come up with excuses why he should play more Warframe like "It gets better after 100 hours" People need to realise that you can't bully people into playing a game if they're not interested, all you do is turn them against the game, so if he was interested in playing more Warframe he sure as hell isn't now. Score one own goal to the Warframe fanbase, and the loss of a streamer who would advertise the game while playing potentially bringing in more players to DE. I do believe his "100 hours" video was in response more to the comment than to Warframe, as the devs (despite how it sounded in his video) never actually said that themselves, to my knowledge. What I think many players forget is they got access to the Second Dream quest 100's of hours in BECAUSE IT DIDN'T EXIST UNTIL THEN. However, now players can go from nothing to Natah relatively quickly due to the quest already existing in lore now. Just how "MR30 took me 8 YEARS to reach!" ....but that's because the items needed weren't in the game until now. NOW, players can essentially reach MR30 in just a few months, if they want to. Perspective is lacking for many "vets", I think. They get lost in THEIR experience and fail to see how the gamescape changes around them (or fail to accept it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 10 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said: Progressing through Standing Rewards is NOT the same as Progressing through Conclave, though. A player being able to get many more rewards without ever actually getting better at Conclave gameplay itself, or indeed ever interfacing with it at all, is the issue I believe said players were having with the Medallions. Yes, which amounts to the same problem. At the heart of that complaint is the same mentality: "Well I suffered to get these rewards, why should anyone else have it any better?" It would not have hurt these people if those exclusive rewards were made just a little less exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrimsonlegendx Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 I had never heard of him before that Warframe MMO video but I've started seeing more of his videos pop up in my feed that I've begun to watch. Been seeing a lot more Warframe footage in some of them. Last one I think was about parasitic design or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)JustJoshinEnt Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 15 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: Yes, which amounts to the same problem. At the heart of that complaint is the same mentality: "Well I suffered to get these rewards, why should anyone else have it any better?" It would not have hurt these people if those exclusive rewards were made just a little less exclusive. Respectfully, that's NOT the same issue, nor the one I'm arguing. The issue of motivating engagement with a specific mode using a Carrot on a Stick becomes a BIGGER problem if you GIVE AWAY THE CARROT without them chasing it at all. Therefore, no, cutting the carrot off the stick and handing it out without riding where you want them to ride, is not going to accomplish the goal of getting the horse from A to B... or in this case, the player. That's the issue with bypassing it. It's nothing to do (in my view, at least) with elitism, or making others "suffer" what I "suffered". It's simply "If you don't do the thing to get the reward, then you've not earned said reward. That's the POINT of the reward... it REWARDS you for doing x behavior." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)JustJoshinEnt Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, xcrimsonlegendx said: I had never heard of him before that Warframe MMO video but I've started seeing more of his videos pop up in my feed that I've begun to watch. Been seeing a lot more Warframe footage in some of them. Last one I think was about parasitic design or something. Yeah, honestly...whether or not Warframe was his TARGETED subject is up for debate, I suppose... but it IS HEAVILY IMPLIED that it is the case... and that can be problematic, because NEW prospective players who are thinking of checking out Warframe, see his video... and then might think, or infer, "ooph, isn't this the game that guy I watch and value the opinion of used as the backdrop/subject of his video when he talked about trashy systems? Maybe I better steer clear and not waste my time...." I'm not saying he's gonna single-handedly destroy new players on Warframe, either... that'd be an absurd extreme conclusion to make.... but it IS a significant enough influence from a large enough channel, that making the case, and having the discussion, seems warranted at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 14 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said: Respectfully, that's NOT the same issue, nor the one I'm arguing. The issue of motivating engagement with a specific mode using a Carrot on a Stick becomes a BIGGER problem if you GIVE AWAY THE CARROT without them chasing it at all. If the only way to make players so much as touch Conclave is to dangle a carrot at the end of it all, then that in itself is also an admission that Conclave is not intrinsically enjoyable, so it does in fact come back to the issue being argued. The player complaining in that tweet visibly wasn't concerned about the game's incentive structure, so much about players getting the rewards they toiled for more easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 45 minutes ago, xcrimsonlegendx said: I had never heard of him before that Warframe MMO video but I've started seeing more of his videos pop up in my feed that I've begun to watch. Been seeing a lot more Warframe footage in some of them. Last one I think was about parasitic design or something. "Parasitic Design" seems to be the same thing as our concept of "content islands". Which Warframe is a really good example of, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 39 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said: Yeah, honestly...whether or not Warframe was his TARGETED subject is up for debate, I suppose... but it IS HEAVILY IMPLIED that it is the case... and that can be problematic, because NEW prospective players who are thinking of checking out Warframe, see his video... and then might think, or infer, "ooph, isn't this the game that guy I watch and value the opinion of used as the backdrop/subject of his video when he talked about trashy systems? Maybe I better steer clear and not waste my time...." I'm not saying he's gonna single-handedly destroy new players on Warframe, either... that'd be an absurd extreme conclusion to make.... but it IS a significant enough influence from a large enough channel, that making the case, and having the discussion, seems warranted at least. If someone points out flaws in the game then I think it's much more important to talk about the flaws being pointed out than to talk about the guy making the video in the first place. Maybe Warframe wouldn't be the backdrop if it didn't have so many glaring problems? Especially in the third video, Warframe is pretty much Parasitic Design: The Game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(NSW)Greybones Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 2 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said: That's the POINT of the reward... it REWARDS you for doing x behavior." I can agree with most of your post, but part of the problem at the moment for Warframe is that the behavior being rewarded is to turn off the game mechanics and get to the end as fast as possible 😕. Which is sort of a given for any game if the reward is considered strong enough by the individual player; cheese the game to get through it faster and easier, meta the game to get through it faster and easier, cheat to get through the game faster and easier. Players may bypass the game itself to reach the end in most other games. Warframe makes it really easy to do so Like any other game, Warframe offers options to actually play the game. But how do we convince players to take said options and value the game itself more and valueing the reward less (which may end up not even finding much use in the game if they're already commited to turning it off). The two work in tandem; the game and the reward, and the interpreted value of the two need to be balanced accordingly The choice to not chase the reward isn't a thing that will easily come from within the player; it most often needs some help from the outside, since sometimes it only seems logical to chase the reward at the cost of whatever else (why would I not?). A headscratching conundrum that personally I don't know how to solve. edit: I’m not convinced it’s completely on DE, though they ultimately give us the game with which to have this situation in. At some point, we the community come into play in this situation; the desire to get the reward is most certainly going to be there all the time, but we can either amplify it [the desire], or help tone it down so that a player doesn’t feel completely compelled to chase the reward to their own detriment, and they’ll still look forward to the reward when they get it. And right now, it feels like it’s being heavily amplified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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