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Josh Strife Hayes and Warframe


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A suggestion I’d make is to up the desirability of modifying their equipment to suit what they’re looking for, and downplay the importance of grinding hard and fast. The game will really quickly let them overpower some content that they’ll still find valid rewards behind; in situations like that, I would say it’s not better to aim for extreme overpower, but to aim for the freedom to customise what their equipment does that lower-level content allows, and to approach the grind cautiously, because it can be a powerful attractive concept that can drive action counterproductive to their having fun.

If they don’t need a Serration to fight through level 20s, it’s not some sort of crime to replace it with something like Stabiliser if they want to, and might be worth encouraging. Same with survival mods. They’ll be well off to learn how to wall hop and dodge and position well before relying on survival mods to get them through a fight, and once they can really hold their own, that frees them up to equip mods that alter what their Warframe can do, instead of strict stat increases (though strict stat increases can potentially be necessary at times, like in Aten or Ganymede)

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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24 minutes ago, Dauggie said:

Where to go next from they are currently. --> just start completing planets, anything that's blinking you have to complete it once.

I can agree with this as well. I was absolutely overwhelmed at the start, and was grasping for a semblance of a guiding thread. It took a bit to get used to the idea that everything I did was progress of some sort, even if I didn’t have a clear goal

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I heard they reworked the first missions you play and give tipps for modding but yeah I dont really know. When I started back in 2016 I was really into the game and read everything I could and was really invested so I think not helping players is some kind of filter. I personally think that not telling the player what to do is really nice and gives you some kind of freedom to explore on your own or with the community. the Q&A text channel ingame is cool too. they could do way more but I dont think it helps to keep newer players active.

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If a player enjoys a game and wants to learn they will go out of their way to do it. It's not the game's fault that the average gamer these days has the attention span of five minutes.

Don't even suggest remaking the new-player experience any further. Most games these days have either a overbearing tutorial that treats you like a absolute moron by spoonfeeding you every little meaningless piece of info at every step, or something akin to what Warframe has - a normal tutorial which treats you like an adult (since this IS a PEGI18 game) and gives you only few examples to follow and figure out on your own. There's a great satisfaction in doing it yourself.

Besides, like others have mentioned already - there's a Q&A channel designed for all questions a new player might have no matter how big or small they are. If someone takes their time to ask questions there and/or do research on their own then it's safe to assume they already like the game. On the other hand, if someone abandons the game because of "lack of direction", then it wasn't for them in the first place. I'm not saying that you need to be a genius to grasp Warframe's mechanics and designs, but you do have to have a thing for games like these and with that comes some ability to connect dots based on past experiences with similar titles you've played and to sprinkle some (un)common sense into that mix.

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15 minutes ago, Incongruous said:

I'm not saying that you need to be a genius to grasp Warframe's mechanics and designs, but you do have to have a thing for games like these and with that comes some ability to connect dots based on past experiences with similar titles you've played and to sprinkle some (un)common sense into that mix.

Or just, I don't know...

 

... Actually have a mind of their own with more than 9 Intelligence points, instead of just, I don't know... watching vids and stuff...

 

... It usually helps further down the road...

Edited by Uhkretor
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I've watched the video and honestly as a returning player seeing two years worth of new (to me) content I have to say he is 100% right when it comes to the game not giving you direction. I came back after a two year break just last week, but before that I was a constant player. I had all the primes and I loved farming content.

 

But even with all that time in the game I came back and felt like a stranger. There were phrases I didn't understand, there were new "arcane" slots on stuff, the Kubrow system works differently, etc etc and the game explains NONE of it. So most of my first days back were spent on YouTube and the wiki trying to figure out what was going on and where I should go. And I STILL don't understand stuff like Eidolon hunts or arcanes despite having watched 2 videos about them. I get the concepts, but still have no idea where to start. 

 

 

DE really needs to sit down and look at their content through the lens of a new or returning player. That way people can log in for the first time or for the first time in a long time and know what's going on and where to go. 

 

Edited by (PSN)Coyote_x_Starrk
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6 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I think it has less to do with the Warframes themselves, and more to do with the core loop of running, gunning, and being a space ninja. Stuff like resources or upgrades or standing aren't necessarily parasitic, but are probably just traits parasitic content tends to have.

The distinction with "minigame" is a bit odd to me and idk how he'd define it. I think maybe minigames would be a small, intentionally separate piece of content. Like Shawzins, Frame Fighter, Wyrmius, etc. Parasitic content would be something intended to be a major part of gameplay but that doesn't actually integrate or build upon existing gameplay.

But I'm not Hayes so idk. 🤷‍♀️

He seems to lurk, so maybe he'll answer us in another video lol.

Well, I mean in a game that's about Space Ninjas, making them playable out in Space is a straight-forward way to expand on the game. It cannot really be "core" by its very nature, especially in a game in which everything is instanced. So yes, call that a "content island", but is it parasitic, as well? I just think got a different message there. The WoW add-on examples were also striking: things that they add that don't matter anymore with the next one. But in Warframe, Railjack is here to stay. Warframe simply is a theme park by its very nature. That's actually something I like about it. I think Scott once said, paraphrased, that "instead of endgame they want to give us more game".

 

By the way, I don't disagree that the game has problems with things not being fleshed out and the devs jump from one thing to the next instead of bringing older things up to par. Which is a shame, because I loved the Gas City rework. Or that they add a lot of systems and basically just let the community do all the explaining. Also, they have really dropped the ball with game balance -- then doubled down and kicked said ball off a cliff.

I guess my point here is just about that I really wouldn't like to see "parasitic game design" being used as a stand-in for "content islands" and as the next big community buzzword.

 

6 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

From what I understand, the scale was an issue at one point but Steve talked with another developer and found a better way to do it. I wish I had a link for it, it was a Steve stream I think. Google "floating point precision", the short of it is that working with big numbers produces imprecision at extreme distances, which can show up as jitters as the position of the player gets less and less well-defined. Eventually the difference is great enough that the camera starts rendering the player a few pixels out of place which becomes very noticeable. But if you change the order of operations the jitters go away, which is what Steve learned from whoever it was.

The other issue is that the engine just can't handle enough enemies to keep players busy, so they can't split the party and also run full missions like Exterminate. But I think that's two issues: 1) the game is so powercreeped that even the 60-whatever enemies the game can support aren't enough anymore - even in Railjack where the enemies are beefier, and 2) the design issues only really exist when DE is trying to force full missions. Grineer Railjack shows pretty well that small instances are fine for Railjack, so do we really need a 1km long procedural ship to run through if it's just gonna be the same basic Exterminate you do from day 1? Why not smaller POIs and tailored Railjack mission types? But doing that takes more time, and DE is busy and prefers taking the easy way out where possible.

Yes, the floating point thing was what I had in mind, but I wasn't certain anymore. Also, when I'm using programming terms I feel like it often doesn't help much in discussions, anyway.

In any case, I'd love to fly around in Railjack and randomly drop into a Gas City instance to rescue poor Jim who got imprisoned yet again, then seamlessly fly to Cetus to bring Konzu his lunch, and I believe the devs would want that, too. But it's a moonshot with how the game and its engine is set up.

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12 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Did you know they did this? They'll offload flying troops and track you as you walk back and forth. What if your Railjack could fly in like that and be fire support during some missions or in the open world? What if your Railjack could swoop down and blow up enemy Crewships? What if you could transition from Railjack to regular gameplay more smoothly like DE originally showed?

I'm not sure if DE ever inteded actual atmospheric combat with the RJ. It is one thing to get down to the planet surface to land, it is another to fly and fight inside the atmosphere. And if we look at the enemy, they use different ships on the surface compared to what they use in space. And the RJ is freakin' huge compared to those surface vehicles. It isnt exactly the most agile thing in space either.

I could see something like the RJ replacing the landing craft support and giving us an option to use the frontal artillery gun to target surface objectives. Maybe even let us spec our RJ for different orbital support roles further than we can with the LC.

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4 hours ago, DarkSkysz said:

Nobody cares about 'new players'... they don't buy platinum... they don't play over 2 hours... they don't even login twice.

Thats why CONVERSION is the metric for f2p games - make them interested, make them stay, "convert" them into regular players who are likely to spend money. Player retention is absolutely crucial and where DE fails on both ends (WF still has very good conversion rate vs most f2p garbage and remains profitable but fails to grow despite all the effort and the content being constantly added)

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1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

Well, I mean in a game that's about Space Ninjas, making them playable out in Space is a straight-forward way to expand on the game. It cannot really be "core" by its very nature, especially in a game in which everything is instanced. So yes, call that a "content island", but is it parasitic, as well?

For example, during the Archwing intro quest you transition from foot to Archwing during the final mission. But real Archwing gameplay at the time didn't actually include this feature at all, it was 100% Archwing and only Archwing. It was its own game with its own progression that didn't tie in with the existing content or gameplay loop in any way. I think that'd be a good example of a content island/parasitic design. With Sharkwing, Jordas/JV, open worlds, and then Railjack, Archwing now ties in with the rest of the game and is no longer quite so parasitic.

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

I guess my point here is just about that I really wouldn't like to see "parasitic game design" being used as a stand-in for "content islands" and as the next big community buzzword.

I mean I may be wrong and they may be totally different concepts, but they do seem pretty similar. Maybe it's a "all content islands are parasitic, but not all parasitic elements are content islands" kind of thing.

And if the community has noticed an issue prevalent enough to give it a buzzword then it's probably something serious enough to look into. I'm not too concerned about people rallying around a common terminology.

43 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm not sure if DE ever inteded actual atmospheric combat with the RJ. It is one thing to get down to the planet surface to land, it is another to fly and fight inside the atmosphere. And if we look at the enemy, they use different ships on the surface compared to what they use in space. And the RJ is freakin' huge compared to those surface vehicles. It isnt exactly the most agile thing in space either.

I could see something like the RJ replacing the landing craft support and giving us an option to use the frontal artillery gun to target surface objectives. Maybe even let us spec our RJ for different orbital support roles further than we can with the LC.

I dunno, Railjack was originally shown transitioning from Venus' atmosphere to space. I don't see any particular reason why we couldn't have Railjack combat in Jupiter's clouds, for example. Scale is also something Railjack has always struggled with: if you're in Archwing then your Railjack looks pretty tiny compared to what it is on the inside, same for Corpus Crewships. And idk about you, but my El Dorado is pretty nimble :P

Though I was thinking more like what you said at the end, stuff like having Cy and your crew do a fly-by to take out enemy ships, calling in a bombardment, dropping off cargo, etc. Imagine if your ship was included as a normal part of gameplay for something like a Defense mission: at wave 5 your ship swoops in and tractor beams the defense target to safety, then you move on to the next one on the map. There's a lot of room for Railjacks and Archwing and Necramechs and all these other mechanics to be a lot better integrated.

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1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

For example, during the Archwing intro quest you transition from foot to Archwing during the final mission. But real Archwing gameplay at the time didn't actually include this feature at all, it was 100% Archwing and only Archwing. It was its own game with its own progression that didn't tie in with the existing content or gameplay loop in any way. I think that'd be a good example of a content island/parasitic design. With Sharkwing, Jordas/JV, open worlds, and then Railjack, Archwing now ties in with the rest of the game and is no longer quite so parasitic.

I mean I may be wrong and they may be totally different concepts, but they do seem pretty similar. Maybe it's a "all content islands are parasitic, but not all parasitic elements are content islands" kind of thing.

And if the community has noticed an issue prevalent enough to give it a buzzword then it's probably something serious enough to look into. I'm not too concerned about people rallying around a common terminology.

I think it couldn't initially, because it used different scales and there was no way to seamlessly transition from one instance to the next. But Archwing was basically its own thing, too, not propped onto existing game systems. So call it a content island, but not parasitic.

So I'd rather say there's some overlap between parasitic elements and content islands, but they're not the same.

 

Anyway, maybe it's just me getting a different impression on what is what. I don't actually mean to detract from the things that are problems in this game. Just going to roll my eyes when the next buzzword wave rolls around. Anyone remember the "year of quality"? 😃

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On 2021-08-11 at 6:21 AM, gbjbaanb said:

that is unusual. Though not to be expected, you'd think Steam badges would occur only after steam was being used, and the flag that sets them woulnd't apply if the game wasn't run via steam. So its a bug that the API returns "failed" and the game ignores it and carries on as if Steam is now updated.

I think very few people know this.

TBH I imagine most people who play on steam do so right from the start, and those who start playing it outside steam do not later install it on steam!

6hbaYDy.png

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 🤷‍♂️

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vor 12 Stunden schrieb Joezone619:

After watching his video about warframe.... DE best be taking notes.

https://youtu.be/NA5vT1LooXk?t=1024

Just listen to what he says.... i mean they did rework the new player stuff a bit AGAIN (Josh was playing the version that now has the Bulletjump, that's new) but the over all thining of DE is that it doesnt help to make a good tutorial.

I myself also added any card i had at the start. Once i came to "level up your mods" I took a closer look and just added life/shield and flat damage/attackspeed.
I've seen many streamers that didnt understand that 3% cold resist is war worse than 120% more life... but how do you explain this system?

The problem seems to be that people see "it's complex.... ok, i'm out". You would have to give people life/shield mods (because you cant make a quest that needs a mod that is a random drop... i had people go to saturn and not drop the rifle % damage mod serration) and then teach them how it works in a "controlled environment".

For me it was fine
What can i do? Well, i can click on the notes that blink... so i do that (i have fun killing stuff.. what do i care?)
I run out of notes... what's that? Oh, it's a gate that unlocks a new planet... i should do that.

The basic idea worked and to be fair.... you get a PM from Lotos to the inbox that tells you to do this (i saw it in his video... i think after he killed Vor)
This topic reminds me of this Megaman X video that explains how passive tutorials work and how modern games think that you're stupid
https://youtu.be/8FpigqfcvlM


I think IF you are not totally stupid you should be able to understand how you unlock the starmap AND the junctions teach you new stuff as well.
Sure, the system could be better... but Warframe is "do you enjoy killing stuff?" and if you dont enjoy the killing part... then warframe that isnt based on story might not be for you.

I think the bigger problem is that the marked starts and the default is "show plat price" and you need to know how to find low MR weapons that you can buy for credits (this totally needs a tutorial that forces you to craft at least one weapon and explains you what resources you get on what planet)

Edited by WingR84
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18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I dunno, Railjack was originally shown transitioning from Venus' atmosphere to space. I don't see any particular reason why we couldn't have Railjack combat in Jupiter's clouds, for example. Scale is also something Railjack has always struggled with: if you're in Archwing then your Railjack looks pretty tiny compared to what it is on the inside, same for Corpus Crewships. And idk about you, but my El Dorado is pretty nimble :P

Though I was thinking more like what you said at the end, stuff like having Cy and your crew do a fly-by to take out enemy ships, calling in a bombardment, dropping off cargo, etc. Imagine if your ship was included as a normal part of gameplay for something like a Defense mission: at wave 5 your ship swoops in and tractor beams the defense target to safety, then you move on to the next one on the map. There's a lot of room for Railjacks and Archwing and Necramechs and all these other mechanics to be a lot better integrated.

Yeah which is why I said landing is one thing and combat being another. While the RJ looks smaller in AW, it is actually HUGE if you look at it through the WF space scale. It is 225 meters long while the grineer and corpus drop ships on the open worlds are around 30 meters. And when we look at big in atmosphere combat ships in sci-fi we probably think of things like Slave-1 or Millennium Falcon that are 21 and 35 meters. And that is if we only look at the length, and ignore the height and width of our RJ. It would be like flying maybe 5 or 6 decently modern battleships stacked on/next to eachother.

But yeah I could see a simple fly-by thing or something like that.

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21 hours ago, (PSN)Coyote_x_Starrk said:

I've watched the video and honestly as a returning player seeing two years worth of new (to me) content I have to say he is 100% right when it comes to the game not giving you direction. I came back after a two year break just last week, but before that I was a constant player. I had all the primes and I loved farming content.

 

But even with all that time in the game I came back and felt like a stranger. There were phrases I didn't understand, there were new "arcane" slots on stuff, the Kubrow system works differently, etc etc and the game explains NONE of it. So most of my first days back were spent on YouTube and the wiki trying to figure out what was going on and where I should go. And I STILL don't understand stuff like Eidolon hunts or arcanes despite having watched 2 videos about them. I get the concepts, but still have no idea where to start. 

 

 

DE really needs to sit down and look at their content through the lens of a new or returning player. That way people can log in for the first time or for the first time in a long time and know what's going on and where to go. 

 

It's because you have to have natural curiosity to check it out. Or be resourceful enough to ask a question. This is why there's obvious differences between college kids and working kids for example. Go into the world and actually get your hands dirty to get hands on experience instead of reading text books.

Go to the plains of eidolon at night. Immediately after loading in....fly in the air with archwing and look for the blue light. Mark it with a waypoint. 

Go look at the teralyst walking around. Hit it with your amp...see the blue numbers....see the red flash once the shield is depleted...locate the Synovia and practice sniping it. Once you physically do it....the mystery disappears and the lightbulb comes on: "ooooh, I won't be damaged if I'm in void mode" "oooo it does the same attacks over and over" etc etc.

 

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3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Go look at the teralyst walking around

Get roflstomped. :D

 

Funny thing though, completing TWW is at 9.2% and killing/capturing a Teralyst is at 6.8% on Steam. that's more than 2/3 of the players who theoretically could do a tridolon actually doing one. I didn't expect it to be that high.

How much of it is "newbie queued for a random tridolon bounty and the rest of the team completed it so fast he didn't even see the things" is something Steam won't tell...

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52 minutes ago, nebfab said:

Get roflstomped. :D

 

Funny thing though, completing TWW is at 9.2% and killing/capturing a Teralyst is at 6.8% on Steam. that's more than 2/3 of the players who theoretically could do a tridolon actually doing one. I didn't expect it to be that high.

How much of it is "newbie queued for a random tridolon bounty and the rest of the team completed it so fast he didn't even see the things" is something Steam won't tell...

It's important to at least get them the what's it called in their inventory (the things you turn into quills for standing).

Either that or the mote amp needs a buff so 4 people with motes can take a Terry down, but even if true they wouldn't be able to plan accordingly if they're new, hence the experienced person to help them. 

I was carried so I could get a different amp, so I do the same so others can. Soloing hydrolyst isn't an issue for me now so the teralyst is a walk in the park.

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On 2021-08-14 at 7:39 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's because you have to have natural curiosity to check it out. Or be resourceful enough to ask a question. This is why there's obvious differences between college kids and working kids for example. Go into the world and actually get your hands dirty to get hands on experience instead of reading text books.

Go to the plains of eidolon at night. Immediately after loading in....fly in the air with archwing and look for the blue light. Mark it with a waypoint. 

Go look at the teralyst walking around. Hit it with your amp...see the blue numbers....see the red flash once the shield is depleted...locate the Synovia and practice sniping it. Once you physically do it....the mystery disappears and the lightbulb comes on: "ooooh, I won't be damaged if I'm in void mode" "oooo it does the same attacks over and over" etc etc.

 

That's really not how video games work though. When there is new stuff introduced to the game or when new players start playing a game there is generally an explanation and a tutorial. You can't just say oh Warframe is different and then just hand wave the concerns of people who are utterly confused by everything around them and then expect them to be cool with it. The average video game player needs help. They need a direction. Warframe doesn't give you any once you complete the first tutorial. 

 

The opening sequence of Warframe basically helps you onto a boat, drives you out to middle of nowhere gives you some goggles, and maybe some floaties, but then just dropkicks you into the ocean and tells you to swim for land without ever telling you which direction to head in. A new or returning player shouldn't have to spend hours on the wiki or YouTube just to figure out where to go or what to do.

 

And to be clear I'm not saying that DE should just handhold everyone to death, but we should at the very least have an in game tutorial for all new content and have a general direction to head in at all times. Like a quest tracker. 

 

Like say "I want to unlock my arcane slots" or "I want to start Eidolon hunting" the game could give me a checklist. These are all the things you need to do in order to accomplish that and this is where to find them. Simple. Easy. Concise. But instead I have spent literal hours on the wiki and YouTube trying to figure out the order of events I need to get done to even START doing arcanes or Eidolons.

 

And for me that's fine because I enjoy the game and I have a thousand hours in it. It's worth it to spend time looking it all up, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating. And that's as someone who has a thousand hours in the game and knowing where to look. I cannot imagine how confusing it must be for a new player who is new to the game and isn't familiar with the various avenues that you can go to for help. 

 

DE is doing new players a disservice. And at a time where other games are bleeding players this is a time where Warframe could be picking up new people. That's something everyone should want, but with the way the game is structured most new players probably won't even make it to Mars. Not because they don't want to, but because they don't know how. 

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Coyote_x_Starrk said:

That's really not how video games work though. When there is new stuff introduced to the game or when new players start playing a game there is generally an explanation and a tutorial. You can't just say oh Warframe is different and then just hand wave the concerns of people who are utterly confused by everything around them and then expect them to be cool with it. The average video game player needs help. They need a direction. Warframe doesn't give you any once you complete the first tutorial. 

 

The opening sequence of Warframe basically helps you onto a boat, drives you out to middle of nowhere gives you some goggles, and maybe some floaties, but then just dropkicks you into the ocean and tells you to swim for land without ever telling you which direction to head in. A new or returning player shouldn't have to spend hours on the wiki or YouTube just to figure out where to go or what to do.

 

And to be clear I'm not saying that DE should just handhold everyone to death, but we should at the very least have an in game tutorial for all new content and have a general direction to head in at all times. Like a quest tracker. 

 

Like say "I want to unlock my arcane slots" or "I want to start Eidolon hunting" the game could give me a checklist. These are all the things you need to do in order to accomplish that and this is where to find them. Simple. Easy. Concise. But instead I have spent literal hours on the wiki and YouTube trying to figure out the order of events I need to get done to even START doing arcanes or Eidolons.

 

And for me that's fine because I enjoy the game and I have a thousand hours in it. It's worth it to spend time looking it all up, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating. And that's as someone who has a thousand hours in the game and knowing where to look. I cannot imagine how confusing it must be for a new player who is new to the game and isn't familiar with the various avenues that you can go to for help. 

 

DE is doing new players a disservice. And at a time where other games are bleeding players this is a time where Warframe could be picking up new people. That's something everyone should want, but with the way the game is structured most new players probably won't even make it to Mars. Not because they don't want to, but because they don't know how. 

Having integrity and not selling out to the incapable masses is more important to some people.

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6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Having integrity and not selling out to the incapable masses is more important to some people.

Having a basic tutorial for your game and showing players what to do is not "selling out to the incompetent masses". 

 

What elitist nonsense. 

Edited by (PSN)Coyote_x_Starrk
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5 minutes ago, (PSN)Coyote_x_Starrk said:

Having a basic tutorial for your game and showing players what to do is not "selling out to the incompetent masses". 

 

What elitist nonsense. 

Then how are the people that currently figured out the game and thriving doing it? 

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36 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Then how are the people that currently figured out the game and thriving doing it? 

Because those people had nothing better to do, have addictive personalities, are predisposed to bend over backwards to make things work, or any combination of the above, and blundered through hours of poorly-explained, feature creep-laden gameplay, slogged through page after page on the wiki trying to make sense of the game's systems, or both, until eventually we started coming to grips with the game (and didn't abandon it on the way). The notion that better tutorials are useless, just because some subset of prospective new players still commit regardless, is along the same lines of idiotic reasoning as claiming we don't need medicine because technically some people survive diseases without it.

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14 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Because those people had nothing better to do, have addictive personalities, are predisposed to bend over backwards to make things work, or any combination of the above, and blundered through hours of poorly-explained, feature creep-laden gameplay, slogged through page after page on the wiki trying to make sense of the game's systems, or both, until eventually we started coming to grips with the game (and didn't abandon it on the way). The notion that better tutorials are useless, just because some subset of prospective new players still commit regardless, is along the same lines of idiotic reasoning as claiming we don't need medicine because technically some people survive diseases without it.

Weird....do you have PhD in human behavior? A therapist or doctor?

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Then how are the people that currently figured out the game and thriving doing it? 

This is horrendous logic. Just because current players have had friends help them or spent hours using third party sources to learn the game does not mean it's too much to ask for DE to just make the game more accessible by adding more tips and comprehensive explanations. 

 

 

Them adding help for new and returning players would be a net positive for literally everyone who plays they game. 

Edited by (PSN)Coyote_x_Starrk
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