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Josh Strife Hayes and Warframe


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3 minutes ago, TaricTheHealer said:

Aahha i remember the first intro i do not think u got any info except how to move and shoot.

And maybe how to swing your melee and cast your 1st power.

That was it. No parkour, no explanation whatsoever of the systems outside basic combat. You were just left to figure it out for yourself.

To put on my best curmudgeon impression, players these days have no idea how good they have it!

Edited by Corvid
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38 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

why not watch it? why would I need to make a summary of it lol, its just 25 mins its not an hour documentary

"just" ?   25min is a lot.  That is 5 rotations worth of time., a entire episode of a TV series.

 

36 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

It's called sharing, go watch it and share your own tougths.

Twitter etiquette doesn't translate well to web forum etiquette. Unlike Twitter, forums have been around for much longer and people are normally expected to articulate themselves while not limited to 280 characters.

 

I've been viewing Josh Strife Hayes for years so I already watched the video days ago and I was familiar with his witty video titles. MOST of his reviews are indeed about terrible MMOs, but he does sometimes talk about good games he likes (like Warframe) but for the sake of consistency and branding, they're all labeled "Worst ....ever?"

Dumping this video title without any context or explanation why one should watch it and not hate it, you are obviously going to trigger everybody,

Edited by MystMan
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Just now, Corvid said:

And maybe how to swing your melee and cast your 1st power.

That was it. No parkour, no explanation whatsoever of the systems outside basic combat.

To put on my best curmudgeon impression, players these days have no idea how good they have it!

Always makes me feel old to think about those days cause i always get to the "Back in my days" mood.

We live in a world of guides n wikis now no room for exploring and discovery.

 

 splat rugrats GIF

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For those asking, it's a series title, and he does outright acknowledge that whether or not Warframe is an MMO varies wildly based on who you ask (my personal take is that it isn't, but it uses enough features and tropes of the genre that it can be considered a pseudo-MMO).

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1 minute ago, TaricTheHealer said:

Always makes me feel old to think about those days cause i always get to the "Back in my days" mood.

We live in a world of guides n wikis now no room for exploring and discovery.

 

 -Snip-

Well, to be fair the wiki was already in operation back then. I personally think that the "you have to keep the wiki open while playing" perception of Warframe is really just a holdover from those days, since a lot of its contents are actually in-game as part of the hints and tutorial systems (albeit very poorly signposted).

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I worte with Josh after the stream and told him about the 2 part documentation about DE on youtube and how it saved the studio.
He didnt had the time to watch it but watching the video where he said "this is from the makers of UT" that part  of the script is not true, because he said on stream that it's like UT and when i told him on discord he wrote:

"ooh they made unreal tournament
this makes a lot of sense"

I also talked about the discounts and that people guy plat with 75% discount, so here i somehow like to claim that he removed the marked prices from the script because he noticed that complaining about the prices wouldnt make sense after what he learned from me.

 

I really wish he would had taken the time to watch the 2 part docu from NoClip and learned that steve is the reason for the bad tutorial, because he claims that better tutorials dont effect the washout rate, based on he bock he likes.... the same guy that replaced the sniper in UT with the shock rifle.

 

The one part he somehow also gets wrong is that he maybe never had someone that explained stuff to him, but based on the limited options he learned by himself that he has to unlock more planets and how to di it. I mean the game could-should explain that levelups give you more points and how forma fields work.... but i would say most people are smart enoth to figure it out. It's funny how he calles it a big mess of systems and he hasnt even unlockt anything that isnt part of the base system. I will never understad why any openworld has its own rules and why the game just doesnt explain you why you need an AMP or lenses and all that other stuff. I mean yes it's part fun to learn it bny youself, but some things you really cant even play without using the wiki. Or would you know what you need to craft the right drink to spawn the Warden on Earth?

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I'm just gonna give a shoutout to those people that came into this thread, refused to watch a video, and still felt strongly enough to respond to the video without even watching it, while also trying to pass their decission to not watch the video, and to purposefully misrepresent it, as entirely fair and valid.

You all rock. And if someone tells you otherwise, do what you do best, and don't listen to them.

As for the video itself, considering it's a "First impressions" kinda deal, it brings up a decent amount of points. JSH was coming across issues that I myself came seven years ago, when I first picked up the game. Well before the advanced movement mechanics were introduced. It also, unintentionally, highlights a couple of issues with the game itself. Not only when it comes to tutorialization and presentation of its systems outside of a mission, but also in regards to how little guidance new players recieve, while also being told they can do whatever they want.

Nothing that hasn't been said before, but the fact that it's being said again just drives the point further. DE did a good job with the overhauled "new player experience" mission, but outside of that mission, they did not change a single thing. Everything related to modding is still eldritch and unknowable, and players still have to deal with Analysis Paralysis due to all of the additions made to the game over the years that DE throws at them with no filter. Not to mention that the closest point of narrative progression after that first quest is at around Jupiter, which will be around 30 to 50 hours into Warframe.

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1 hour ago, TaricTheHealer said:

Im not gonna watch it cause your telling me to watch it and your not my wife or boss and since you gave no reason to watch it i found compelling such as information about the video or disagreements you have with certain parts i will not be viewing this.

 

Taric. Its me, your Boss.... Jami... Joh...  Brya... Jamryn... yes, your Boss Jamryn... also if you don't recognise my name, its because I am your Bosses Boss. I am the Big Boss. I rule... from the shadows. I order you to watch the video!! Or else... you can't use the company car anymore!

 

1 hour ago, TaricTheHealer said:

Thanks sounds like a interesting video. I have often wondered if making a new account so i can experience what its like to jump into this huge world as a beginner would be a good idea but i fear that due to the fact i know tons about the game it wouldn't feel new and exciting like i hoped.

 

NP. Yeah when I think back to my new player experience... it would be hard to replicate. I use to run around exploring the same maps, like I was playing some slow JRPG. I would quietly walk to wall corners and peek around, and if more than 4 enemies were alerted, I would walk or sometimes run backwards to get superior cover. I got excited over Gold Mods, because... they were Gold! 

One part in the video that resonated with me, was when they talked about some random Grineer space cannons that are on some tile sets. You can see them on some of the rooms with windows. I remember when I use to look out for environmental details like that. Oh and when they point out that the games UI actually comes out of your Warframe's wrist, and they follow the cursor. Like, conceptually thats cool, and so neat the first time, but we sort of forget/stop caring after a while. 

 

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

Oh, so sort of like the "Cinema Sins" kind of channel.  "Everything wrong with 'insert your favorite movie here' in less than 15 minutes."

Honestly, Warframe *does* have a pretty rough starting experience, even with someone offering to help.  I've invited a dozen people to try this game.  Every single one quit in less than a month.  (My solution:  I no longer invite people to play Warframe.)

 

Kind of. I tend to think of the Simpsons Comic Book guy who claims everything is the "Worst Thing Ever" even though its not really lol

Oh awwh yeah, what you said just made me realise something... everyone I have invited and recommended to Warframe, out of those that did actually play it, none of them still do lol. Granted thats only like 5 people. Though one of them got too into Warframe, and its probably best they quit. 

 

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Actually, in terms of what's explained and left out the Awakening intro is functionally the same as the previous Forest intro mission, it just better matches the environment shown in the cinematic. And both are far more informative than the old Mercury Cave intro (to say nothing of the even older Mastery test-esque tutorial).

Why yes, I have been here a while. Thank you for noticing.

 

Ahh okay, noted! I struggle with actually remembering my own experience to see whats changed, just that it has. Mine was definitely Earth though. 

Thank you for your info! 

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The dude in the video points out the main issues. And they do it efficiently.
I tried to convince my friends to play warframe and lost all but 1 in the process.

I remember when I recently got back to the game and thought: Of sisters of parvos, now I gotta watch some Youtube to see how to access the content. That is so describing.

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11 hours ago, mega_lova_nia said:

Heh, im glad i jinxed it.

I just watched the video and the review seems accurate so far with the new player experience and the feel of playing warframe. One thing i do hope for is so that he could dive down deeper into the game to review more problems this game has, especially regarding the power creep, grinding, non evergreen content, etc.

for now, im just glad we finally have a 3rd party, close to non biased, sort of professional review. Something that perhaps DE can listen to. Im surprised that the comments in the video were mostly positive as well, feels wholesome compared to how warframe's community can be when discussing the game.

As for if this review is sponsored or not, i don't think so, i've emailed him way back asking if he's interested in reviewing warframe and he said he did have his eyes on our game for a while now, so this review is to be expected.

That's good to hear! I watched his video again. It's a good new player/early game perspective on Warframe. I just think there so much of the game the video doesn't cover that I don't think the video adequately addresses Warframe's state. As someone else said, it's a "first impressions" video which offers very little in the way of constructive criticism.

5 hours ago, Genitive said:

The summary of the video Josh made: Warframe has excellent gameplay but some of its systems are flawed and new-player experience is not good. Or something like that. Which is basically every criticism of the game ever.

It's not every criticism of the game. That's the problem with the video. It's just a couple of several criticisms of the game. When you play more of the game than just the intro and early parts, then you start to see the other cracks in Warframe's walls that bring out more issues with the game.

 

Also, was another thread merged into this one? Based on some of the comments, seems like someone else made a thread with just the video and no explanation, and it got merged.

Edited by OniDax
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On 2021-07-31 at 5:08 PM, [DE]Kenneth said:

I just watched it as well.

Just got done watching his review, and couldn't agree more: warframe looks stunning, ambient is amazingly well done and gameplay is a mechanical wonder, but this wonder can be easily ruined by the huge amount of feature creep.

But to make things worse, that feature creep in the end makes us overpowered enough to remove a lot from the mechanical side of gameplay and turns the game into the current braindead AoE spam meta which leads me to think how would his review change if he keeps playing and reaches that point where enemies might as well not exist; the review even slipped a complaint about everything being dead on missions with higher lvl players after all.

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He has another video now, titled "It Gets Better After 100 Hours...". Yeah, DE needs to look at this video, probably more than the last one. This is the video that describes Warframe, and is a good message for Warframe's die hard defenders.

What DE needs to do is greatly streamline their entire game, and the game's story. It takes time that DE doesn't want to take, but the game needs it. It's because DE hasn't done this that they haven't been able to solve the player retention issue. Just changing the intro never solved that issue, because the intro was never the problem. It's the game design and gameplay itself that is the problem. DE has thrown in a lot of stuff to overshadow the failings of the core gameplay and distract players from it. But it's that core gameplay that ultimately turns players off from the game. And by core gameplay, I'm not just talking about core gameplay mechanics (like movement system, gunplay, melee gameplay, etc.) but about mission design, progression system, story progression, drop rates, gameplay loop, and explanation of the game's systems). That's what turns people off from the game. It's all of it. It needs to be streamlined, and I think it's worth it for DE to remove a lot of the old junk that's in the early progression and streamline access to early and even mid-game content. It's not for the sake of catching new players up to veteran players like Destiny 2 does. It's about streamlining the game by removing the less desirable parts, so that it doesn't take long for new players to get to the more desirable parts. And while they're doing that, I think they need to actually improve older areas of the game, like early tilesets (namely Mercury, Venus, and Mars), 3d meshes (warframe and weapon meshes), and gameplay animations (gun holding animations, running/sprinting/walking animations, and some melee animations). Basically, take the time to improve the game (and they can still add new content and even new story alongside such a process).

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Josh Hayes has made a video about Warframe and some Veterans commented that the Game gets better after a hundred Hours. He replied  that this shouldnt be the case but watch the video for yourself. I think that he has some good points it´s hard to get your friends to play warframe because to actually make some damage they first have to grind through all the mud to get all the good mods and the MR to get some Weapons that are worth investing your Forma etc. I would like to see an overall rework of the older content in warframe so all the warframes that arent played by the community like Hydroid or Mag, to get a rework and also some low MR Weapons to actually make some damage and to make it easyer Mod wise. So that players that dont have the amount of time like the veterans to enjoy the game. This would probably mean that DE could not Focus on new Content otherwise I think the rework wouldnt be up to the expectations of the community. But what do you think about it? Would you like to see a rework of the old stuff or are you happy how things are going now? I fear this problem will kill the game in the long term because there will be less and less new players.  

Please comment your thoughts.🙂

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Edit: Idk why the thread I was replying to got merged with a 2 month old thread that wasn't even discussing the same thing so my original reply isn't relevant to the topic of this thread anymore.

Edited by Leyvonne
merged threads
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Disclaimer: I'm an 5.3k hrs MR30 on PC, have been playing on-and-off, mostly on, since closed beta. I'm just a casual player and I haven't went back to do the new tutorial yet, so I might not correctly remember everything that has been added/missing. This is my first post on the forum and I also haven't done much research on here regarding other posts on the same topic, so please let me know if I should go and check out another post.

 

Why am I posting this? - So I just finished watching Brozime's Discussion/Reaction video to Josh Strife Hayes' opinion video. Not sure why, but I guess my brain decided that today is the day I should post my thoughts on the forum.

 

My thoughts:

I. Official Mentor System: I think that having a veteran helping newer players is a great thing

- Request from the “mentee” to the “mentor” only? (Maybe the other way around is better?)

- Affinity/resource buff when doing missions together?

+ Starts only after doing 3(?) missions together? —> For the linking request between mentor-mentee to be allowed or for buff to actually starts

- Perhaps bringing in Teshin for the rewarding, as his introduction to the new player?

II. Extended Tutorial & Other Changes to Tutorial: The new tutorial seems pretty good, from what I have seen and heard, though it fell short at guiding newer players further into the game

a) Modding

1) Menu

- Ayatan Sculpture

+ Hide it until we get at least one in inventory

+ Initial acquisition can be integrated into Vor’s Prize, assassination mission

+ Once we done killing Vor for the first time (to prevent repeat runs for farm), before extraction, Ordis picked up the signature of a sculpture?

+ We have to pick up the sculpture to complete the mission

+ Come back to orbiter and we are prompted to put stars in (i.e., there is a dormant message hidden within the sculpture and need stars to power them up for viewing?)

+ After Stolen Dream, Maroo reaches out either if we have a sculpture in storage to see if we want to sell or if we have none to see if we want to get one

- Transmute/Sell/Dissolve

+ Going through each one individually

+ Once you got multiples of a mod, trigger the dialog from Ordis (i.e., I see that you have a couple of duplicates of the same mod, perhaps you would like to transmute them into a brand new mod)

2) Essential/Basic Mods

- Aura Mod - Energy Siphon/Corrosive Projection/Steel Charge?

- Warframe Defense Mod - Redirection/Steel Fiber/Vitality?

- Warframe Ability Mod - Intensify/Stretch/Streamline?

- Weapon Mods - Hornet Strike/Serration/Pressure Point?

- A short series of missions to get a copy of the mods?

3) Tutorial

- Mod capacity can be explained as energy required for a mod to function

- Polarized slots can be explained as a slot that is specifically configured for a polarity type, allowing a lower capacity drainage if the mod has the correct polarity

- Highlight the slot that it is recommended to put the mod in

- Free potato for 1st frame (or for 1st weapon?), but has to be manually installed. Ordis can comment on how from time to time, an alert might come up for it? (i.e. Picking up faint traces for Orokin reactor, will keep an eye out for one in the future?)

b) Decorating the Orbiter

- Ordis is glitching, making the color all weird (randomized color)

- We have to go do a quick mission to fix him

- Chromatic Calibration module? —> Can be a decoration

- Then at the end of the quest, we have to put down the Chromatic Calibration module somewhere in the orbiter and use it to pick the color of the orbiter of our choice?

c) Endo/Mod/Credit Farm & Resource Extractor

- Identify popular node for farming different types

- A short tutorial on passive resource gain from resource extractor

d) Small Achievement tree

- If we accumulate so and so 1000/5000 Endo/Credit? —> Triggers Ordis to comment that we now have enough to perform mod fusion/transmutation

- Accumulate so and so resources —> Triggers Ordis to comment that we now have enough to craft a weapon/frame that we currently have the inventory for

- Accumulate so and so rep for a faction/syndicate —> Triggers Ordis to comment that we now have

- Reaching a new mastery rank—> Triggers Ordis to comment that there is access to new perks/weapons

III. New Enemies

a) Grineer Sniper Recon Team

- Long Range Sniping (800-1000m?) on Plains of Eidolon

- Initially we can’t see them, Ordis has to scan (30s?) and spot them for us

- Have to hide behind covers, avoid Line of Sight, otherwise they will 100% headshot us?

b) Corpus Assault Team

- Deployed on Orb Vallis

- Spawned only on the surface, via drop pod/teleportation?

- Once spawned, a small area is covered in a bubble (nullifier/buffer/debuffer/defense)?

- Spawned regardless of threat level(?)

IV. Other stuff

- In Fortuna/Cetus/Necralisk

+ When you have discovered another hub, people from other hubs start to appear there(?) Making the world feels more alive and active? Or maybe they are there already and you can interact with them to be introduced to their respective area?

+ When you have reached a certain rank in that hub, you get small fetch quests to bring resources from other open worlds to this hub (I.e., Ticker wants some Maprico from Plains of Eidolon) in exchange for small resources and rep reward?

- In Plains of Eidolon/Orb Vallis

+ Random mission where Corpus/Grineer special operation team drops in, trying to secure something?

- Codex

+ We gain damage reduction from or damage buff to the target once we fully scan a target. Linear progression (i.e., Grineer Lancer has 20 scans total, buff/debuff is capped at 5%(?), so for every 1 scan, we get 0.25%)

- Introduction to Simulacrum

+ Contacted by Cephalon Simaris once a certain amount of scans have been made

+ Outright point out the difference between Simaris scanner and Codex scanner

- In normal mission

+ Random pivoting scenario for some extra small loot or rep (i.e., Endo, credits, resource,… nothing major to be locked behind, just something extra). Should be optional objectives, but higher chance of spawning, compare to what is currently happening with Capture changing to Exterminate

+ Exterminate - Change the target of cannon fire or destroy a critical supply cache

+ Rescue - Rescue additional hostages (trigged only if there are still locked rooms) which can be tied to a different faction (i.e., Cetus people, Fortuna people, a rare Infested specimen for Son in Necralisk)

+ Spy - Corrupt data in a 4th vault? Plant false data?

+ Capture - Take out an additional target?

+ Or have a set of optional objectives that can fit in any of the main mission's objective

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2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Online games take time to cultivate and get into the meat of it. 

It's always gonna take time and be a learning experience and you have to like the game to keep going.

100 hours is nothing in an online game. 

 

I agree with this, but would like to point out that the message sounds wrong, and could be stated better. It's not 'play 100 hours and it gets good' it's 'play more than 10% and see how it improves'.

The equivalent for other media would be, 'Read past the first chapter/book' for a book or book series. Or maybe 'watch more than the first 15 minutes' for a movie or TV show. Every good piece of media still has an 'initial phase' that may need to be overcome. It sucks to be sure for something where that hurdle is a serious length of time, like many ongoing games have now, but it's still there for everything.

 

 

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I'm starting to question the average understanding/IQ of humanity if warframe makes someone so confused and need further streamlining

1. Mission progression is as simple as dots and lines connecting the dots, and it's almost on many games with levels and stages so what's so confusing from following the dots and lines? Not to mention you have them pulsing with blue glow to show you where to click next. What part of it that needs explanation? That's almost a kiddie game level of mission design that even a toddler can understand

2. Mission design is pretty much do an objective and extract. What part of this that need a change? Longer chains of objective with risk of "not efficient" when players can't even accept having something taking longer to get a reward?

3. Story progression, you basically get a piece of story explaining things from breeding kubrow and infested as early as reaching Mercury, with other quests unlocked from clearing junctions so you get the story pieces one by one, not shoved into your face in one go so have everyone forgotten that part?

4. Grind through the mud to get weapons that worth forma? Even braton is worth 5 forma and it will carry you to Sedna with slight modding. Rarely a game gives you ability to bring yourself to the farthest area with your starting gear even with full upgrade and warframe isn't being like that

So, saying 100 hours to get to the good part isn't the truth, and it looks like people forgot their progress from taking a few shots to take down a level 1 lancer to one shot eidolon. And I thought people say the fun part of warframe is when you're not one shot killing everything?

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21 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

"Worst MMO ever?" Well, yeah. Because it's not an MMO.

There, just saved you 25mins of your time.

Someone didn't watch even the first couple minutes to hear the disclaimer on "MMO" or realize all his  "worst MMO" series videos start with the same title.

Edited by Deminisis
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3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

1. Mission progression is as simple as dots and lines connecting the dots, and it's almost on many games with levels and stages so what's so confusing from following the dots and lines? Not to mention you have them pulsing with blue glow to show you where to click next. What part of it that needs explanation? That's almost a kiddie game level of mission design that even a toddler can understand

To give my thoughts on it, the issue isn't necessarily that progression is complicated, it's that the game doesn't give any direction regarding which way leads to progression. It would be like if the opening of Breath of the Wild (recently watched a retrospective on that game so it's been on my mind) got to the end of the Great Plateau, but didn't then point you toward Impa's village. The player is technically free to go in any direction once they get the paraglider, but having that indicator of which direction the devs expect you to go ensures that even if players choose to go the "wrong" way, they know that they made a conscious decision to deviate.

In Warframe, players fresh out of Vor's Prize are dumped into the game with multiple apparent paths of progression, each of which are equally likely from their perspective to be what the devs expect them to focus on.

Do they go for Junctions? Do they focus on clearing the planet? Do they go to Cetus and complete all the tasks there? Do they ignore node progression entirely, and focus on ranking up their gear/mods?

All of these have the potential to be the expected path, but there's no signposting that gives any of them an apparent priority. Which means that if the player commits to one, they're left with the sensation that they might be wasting their time, even if they have in fact chosen correctly.

Edited by Corvid
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I've seen that he posted another video about 100 hrs being the minimum time required to enjoy a game, something that warframe has trouble of. It's great that he decided to clear that up. But what im waiting for is if he could just dive in deeper to see the lingering problems of warframe like the unbalanced op ness of warframes, non evergreen content, basically i want to see a full 3rd party review to clear up the debates that has been happening regarding this game. Also, so that DE could open their eyes and see what's going on

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