Josh Strife Hayes and Warframe

[Corvid]

6 minutes ago, android3162 said:

the entire Vor's Prize quest is new

It was added in 2014.

That's not new.

[android3162]

1 hour ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

And to people who say "people are just dumb, open your eyes, read codex" - you are compl;etely off the mark. I have seen so many streamers\youtubers making the same mistakes when trying this game, so many confused people in general chat, it's a systemic problem, and you would think if A LOT of people have THE SAME issues in the beginning of the game, then maybe, just maybe, it's not the people's fault.

+1

 

1 hour ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

I genuinely believe that they mostly do things that they personally find interesting (which has both positive and negative sides), and unscrewing the new player experience is just boring and difficult, so they keep delaying it.

That just seems like a pessimistic guess. DE has done too well and worked too hard in too many areas to insinuate that so casually. It's much much easier to revamp old content than create entire new gamemodes, massive open worlds, and the endless bugs that come along. The jupiter and corpus ship tileset reworks are a great example: they came as side-additions that were barely advertised as a big thing, cause it was just a side thing. They've stated that by the numbers, changing the NPE didn't do much, so it wasn't worth doing. It's the same for reworking warframes, Pablo loves doing it, but focuses on other stuff cause nobody uses reworked frames unless they are broken. Whether that's a just bad analysis or a hidden fact that we can't yet comprehend, it's still their current business opinion, and that's why it's on low-priority. 

[android3162]

24 minutes ago, Corvid said:

It was added in 2014.

That's not new.

The game came out in 2013, so as far as the question of, "Does DE try to improve NPE when they can afford to," it counts as new. It's clearly not the newest, by a long long shot, but I also wasn't focusing on the newest.

Let's not forget that the entire point of his second video is to imply that the devs are too incompetent to explain their game or make the intro even worth playing, and that the community is too toxic to allow new players to avoid suffering through it. There is no new information about WF in that video, other than that type of stuff.

 

[----Legacy----]

On 2021-08-06 at 10:48 PM, TheArmchairThinker said:

And that's the reason I'm still playing warframe and barely play other game now. I gained my power to turn the world boss to be nothing but a glorified grunt and I like warframe for not going with the same mold other games do. I'm not gaining my power only to see it being not having much difference when I fight the boss even on early level places.

The thing is, the boss might as well not even be there since it can be instantly killed. Turning it into a glorified grunt simply defeats the purposes of having bosses in the first place, the sergeant is probably the best example of it since it's an ancient boss that hasn't been reworked in ages and remains as nothing but a glorified grunt.

On 2021-08-06 at 10:48 PM, TheArmchairThinker said:

As if like other games don't put rewards under awfully low drop rates and multi layered time gates, not to mention the dragged fight just to one item? No thanks, warframe is still being nice enough not to make you grind for new power level cap every few months when new season/expansion comes out so the rewards are not limited by time to be obsolete and the grind starts again.

The thing is, awfully drop rates -in warframe- are DE's way to increase how long do players stick to the game by making us repeat the same task over and over again. There is no gameplay related challenges so they can only challenge our patience with layers upon layers of RNG on top of time walls (that can conventiently be bypassed with platinum).

Btw, "Other games do it so it's fine" isn't a compelling point

On 2021-08-06 at 10:48 PM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Mechanical aspect such as?

Mechanical aspect such as in needing to actually play the game using my keyboard and mouse to beat it.

There's no mechanical gameplay when all it takes is 1 shot to kill a boss while we are able to totally omit their damage output thanks to either immunity to damage or damage reductions obnoxious enough to makes immortal on top of ways to heal ourselves easily -without any input- and much faster than any damage they can deal.

@PublikDomain got the point right and made a great explanation on his post.

On 2021-08-06 at 10:48 PM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Are those mechanics removed when you reach certain point in power progression? No, the phase is done faster and the mechanics are still there, not stretched with trying to deplete the health bar to continue to next phase

As pointed above, if mechanical for you just means "deplete a health bar" then you have a point, however, with  mechanical i'm referring to making use of core game mechanics such as aiming, dodging and managing resources (like energy); aiming gets removed due to the easy access to aoe nukes -weapons included- that deplete the enemy health bar(s) on a single hit, the need dodging is removed as well thanks to damage reductions and full immunity, while energy management is entirely trivialized by stuff like zenurik or arcane energize.

The result: warframe gameplay is removed from the game, turning it into nothing but a glorified slot machine where players try to pull levers as efficiently as possible to get the best reward/time ratio. (Which is the main reason why DE's main way to keep players engaged is through low drop chances instead of doing it through engaging content, as one would expect from a videogame).

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, android3162 said:

The game came out in 2013, so as far as the question of, "Does DE try to improve NPE when they can afford to," it counts as new.

I love how many people on this forum do nothing but move goalposts when proven wrong on their points. 

The game came out on 2013, and even though Vor's price was added in 2014 (July 18th, to be more specific), that's a whole 7 years ago which is quite far from new, especially keeping in mind that we are currently on U30.6 and the quest was added on U14 (yes, over 16 updates ago).

[TheArmchairThinker]

On 2021-08-07 at 12:43 PM, PublikDomain said:

You can walk right past Vay Hek's first 3 fights once you learn you don't even have to do them. In his one mandatory fight at the very end his energy sap and damage output can be ignored, so you just sit around and wait until you're allowed to shoot him - until you're allowed to one-shot him.

Jackal's damage output and laser grid can be ignored, so you just sit around and wait until you're allowed to melee his legs and kill him in his cutscenes.

Sargas Ruk's damage output can be ignored, so you just sit around and wait until you're allowed to shoot him.

Lech Kril's damage output can be ignored, so you just sit around and wait until you're allowed to shoot him - until you're allowed to one-shot him.

Raptor does keep the bomb mechanic, sure, but if you know what you're doing you can CC them inside their tubes and just shoot them before they come out. Bomb falls right in the hole, there's not even time to realize that there are different Raptors that do different things.

Ambulas' damage output can be ignored as can the ship artillery and dropships, so you just sit around and wait the few minutes in between waves. I guess you still have to hack them? But with CC you can ignore the recovery drones too.

Kela De Thayme does have the wall shooty mechanic, but certain weapons can hit all the buttons and the artillery strike's damage can be ignored, so you just sit around and wait for her to come back out. The hardest part of the fight is getting in...

Alad V and Zanuka doesn't even register, because with an AoE weapon you can kill them both at the same time.

The game's boss fights are either naked health pools that get one-shot, or gated stages that get reduced to their timers. You either click the boss and it dies or just... sit around for a while.

And can you ignore the damage output before all of your power gained? I don't think so, and we can ignore the damage output because of that and I prefer that way. Why should I get all of those power from adaptation to arcane guardian/energize if I end up still dying to Jackal's laser grid on early planets?

And other games don't do this? Gated stages with thick health pool just to what? Make them "feel like boss"? Or naked health pools that is big enough to make you spend minutes just to deplete it? Why should we fight the boss like that?

On 2021-08-07 at 12:43 PM, PublikDomain said:

Well, you kind of are. Most of the stuff DE's been adding recently makes your gear not make a difference. Nihil's fight doesn't use any of your gear, enemy survivability mechanics reduce your power to nothing, Deimos enemies ignore or resist certain damage types, New War's first half hour doesn't even use your Warframe...

And why does that happen if not because people complaining everything is too easy and complain if DE ever try to touch their power? And that does shake the meta a bit, doesn't it? Not going with one size fits all solution like what these people say

 

[android3162]

53 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

The thing is, the boss might as well not even be there since it can be instantly killed

In defense of ArmChair, that's not what he's talking about. 

First off, no, bosses cannot be instantly killed by depleting the health bar. There are mechanics that make the fight longer than one shot, in everything except the Sergeant. And the Sergeant is just an old boss, not a unique poorly designed one. All bosses from that long ago were exactly like that. The newer bosses are getting better, adapting to our dps with mechanics.

 

It seems that the ONLY way to make a boss good, in your opinion, is to make them a bullet sponge and to make your defenses weak. You don't seen to care about invincibility mechanics, movement mechanics, weakpoint and aiming mechanics, since that's what currently exists in Warframe assassination missions.

 

Bullet sponge bosses is something some people like, but not all. Pretty subjective, so no real grounds for change. The only other thing I can think of is forced team coordination, which goes against the identity of Warframe a little. WF is designed to be solo friendly, with bonus rewards for team play.

 

53 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

There's no mechanical gameplay when all it takes is 1 shot to kill a boss while we are able to totally omit their damage output thanks to either immunity to damage or damage reductions obnoxious enough to makes immortal on top of ways to heal ourselves easily -without any input- and much faster than any damage they can deal.

This is exclusively the case for when you have already finished said boss multiple times. Anybody New to Vor needs to dodge his attacks or die from his attacks. Anybody new to Jackal dies constantly from all kinds of reasons. Anybody new to Sargas Ruk has a tough time hitting the weak spots without dying or being flung around. Anybody new to Exploiter ends up spending up to an hour on it. Anybody new to Eidolons barely manages to take it down. The ease of doing any activity in Warframe is earned over time.

 

 

53 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

dodging and managing resources

These still exist in on-level content unless you have every single mod and invigoration you need to make the extremely specific cheese strats.

 

53 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

The thing is, awfully drop rates -in warframe- are DE's way to increase how long do players stick to the game by making us repeat the same task over and over again.

That's just flat out wrong. Drop rates are perfectly reasonable as long as you're farming content that's meant for your level and is necessary. You can get through the star chart, do Railjack missions, and survive arbitrations and Steel Path without much focused farming. Low drop rates and long farms are exclusively the case for completionist-style gameplay, where you want every single item in the game and all the strongest guns and you specifically want to trivialise all content by being OP. Warframe never forces you to be OP or to farm for hundreds of hours, Warframe gives you the choice to be OP by farming for hundreds of hours. People like that, and they play that.

 

53 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Which is the main reason why DE's main way to keep players engaged is through low drop chances instead of doing it through engaging content, as one would expect from a videogame

That's again, not true at all. Warframe has as much engaging content as any typical game- 100 to 200 hours. The only difference is that Warframe also caters to people who play for thousands of hours, which is impossible without having things like low drop rates and repetitive content, especially if there's no PvP angle. And people LOVE the grind, that's why they play it for hundreds to thousands of hours.

 

53 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

aiming gets removed due to the easy access to aoe nukes -weapons included- that deplete the enemy health bar(s) on a single hit, the need dodging is removed as well thanks to damage reductions and full immunity, while energy management is entirely trivialized by stuff like zenurik or arcane energize.

That's called getting stronger. To get to this point, you have to conquer at least 300 hours of farming specifically focused towards builds, at which point, it's well earned. If you don't like those two things, just don't farm, and it'll instead be mechanically engaging difficult content. If you want to farm a bunch AND find engaging content, do late game stuff, like the Open world bosses and Steel Path, but don't google the meta. If you want to trivialise all the content, google the meta and farm.

 

 

Finally, there's the question of overall difficulty. Whether someone at the peak should be allowed to trivialise content. This is entirely subjective, just make a single post on reddit about making melee tougher mechanically, or enforcing things like aiming, and most people will dislike your idea. Warframe is a game that has never been all about try-hard gameplay, and changing that is not a black-and-white "good" thing.

[android3162]

31 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

1 hour ago, android3162 said:

The game came out in 2013, so as far as the question of, "Does DE try to improve NPE when they can afford to," it counts as new.

I love how many people on this forum do nothing but move goalposts when proven wrong on their points. 

Okay, don't try to patronise me. It never mattered whether it was 7 years old, it disproves the notion that the devs don't want to improve any existing content. It's a fact that goes against the main point of Josh's second video - that the Devs are incompetent, don't care, and that the community is too toxic to allow change.

I'm not the person who narrowed down on the oldest change, I listed every single change that I knew of, that was key in improving the NPE, regardless of how old or new it was. The Vor fight happens to be the oldest, but the only reason it's age is being discussed is because Corvid brought it up. See how we're no longer talking about all the other changes that matter more? That's not a direction I took this in.

[TheArmchairThinker]

34 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

The thing is, awfully drop rates -in warframe- are DE's way to increase how long do players stick to the game by making us repeat the same task over and over again. There is no gameplay related challenges so they can only challenge our patience with layers upon layers of RNG on top of time walls (that can conventiently be bypassed with platinum).

Btw, "Other games do it so it's fine" isn't a compelling point

You haven't seen the garbage drop rate in other games where you're not guaranteed to have the drop even on highest difficulty that is basically one shot fiesta from enemies? Also, why is awfully drop rates in warframe exists if not those people who complain there's nothing to do once they got things? I've seen a live example of this person that say warframe needs "evergreen rewards" but when the things fitting the criteria is presented? How fast it's dismissed as "not evergreen" despite it's the same thing this player mentioned before because "I have millions of this because I'm a veteran" so yes, basically these kind of people need to grind something as "gameplay" and once there's nothing to chase, it's "nothing to do" and "content drought" so what can I say?

40 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

As pointed above, if mechanical for you just means "deplete a health bar" then you have a point, however, with  mechanical i'm referring to making use of core game mechanics such as aiming, dodging and managing resources (like energy); aiming gets removed due to the easy access to aoe nukes -weapons included- that deplete the enemy health bar(s) on a single hit, the need dodging is removed as well thanks to damage reductions and full immunity, while energy management is entirely trivialized by stuff like zenurik or arcane energize.

You want aiming? We can have juggernaut or necramech mechanics where shots anywhere other than the weak spot gets severely reduced damage or nullified, and to make things worse, they're located at hard to get places like the back so you better aim fast before they turn their weak spot away from your sight. Not only that, it's immune to AoE so there you go, aiming required

Dodging? So you prefer full immunity and damage reductions turned down that warframe might as well turn into another generic third person shooter? Give me a reason why must I accept having my power to nullify damage nerfed just to appease you that want to have dodging as a must do? Can't you have your dose of that on Dark Souls or other games?

Managing resources? We're way past that, so why must I stress myself running out of resources when fighting through enemies? If I want to torture myself through that, I can play other games. Warframe being a chill game that can be played while not thinking is a good thing by itself so there's no need to destroy it just to appease one person

[CephalonCarnage]

4 hours ago, android3162 said:

Either you read between the lines, and realise it's clear he's addressing Warframe specifically

or you understand he uses the content from the game he's currently playing and thus has all that video for. He mentions WF once, as part of the 40% thing. That does not make his video to be about warframe.

[----Legacy----]

11 minutes ago, android3162 said:

First off, no, bosses cannot be instantly killed by depleting the health bar. There are mechanics that make the fight longer than one shot, in everything except the Sergeant.

Yeah, i remember the old boss fights. The thing is, these mechanics you mention are normally just capping how much damage the boss takes before becoming temporarily invulnerable or runs away for a few seconds, where each health bar -sometimes implicit and some other times explicit- still can be one shotted unless these also come with heavy dmg reductions on top.

Without these health gates, damage caps, whatever, those bosses would be no different from fighting Phorid or the Sergeant.

19 minutes ago, android3162 said:

And the Sergeant is just an old boss, not a unique poorly designed one. All bosses from that long ago were exactly like that.

Yeah, i remember the days back when The Sergeant was called "Sgt. Nef Anyo" and most bosses where just recolored slightly bigger (glorified) grunts, boss fights like the J3 golem, etc. The thing is, being one of the oldest bosses in the game doesn't justify that he, just like Phorid, might as well be a random unit due to how easily they get shred.

48 minutes ago, android3162 said:

It seems that the ONLY way to make a boss good, in your opinion, is to make them a bullet sponge and to make your defenses weak.

No, there' plenty of ways to make a boss fun and engaging without making it a bullet sponge that has a single weakspot which can't be hit most of the time and becomes invulnerable again after taking [X] amount of damage.

48 minutes ago, android3162 said:

You don't seen to care about invincibility mechanics, movement mechanics, weakpoint and aiming mechanics, since that's what currently exists in Warframe assassination missions.

Aiming, weakspots and movement mechanics are literally what i care the most about boss fights, otherwise i'd be happy with the current bosses and their multiple binary health bars and temporal invincibilities that artificially extend their lifespan since these things can also be easily removed from the equation.

57 minutes ago, android3162 said:

This is exclusively the case for when you have already finished said boss multiple times. Anybody New to Vor needs to dodge his attacks or die from his attacks. Anybody new to Jackal dies constantly from all kinds of reasons. Anybody new to Sargas Ruk has a tough time hitting the weak spots without dying or being flung around. Anybody new to Exploiter ends up spending up to an hour on it. Anybody new to Eidolons barely manages to take it down. The ease of doing any activity in Warframe is earned over time.

Ehhh, are you serious? The ease of doing anything in any game is earned over time and new players will always have a thougher time at anything, this doesn't apply only to warframe.

My point is exactly related to what you said, though. In warframe the ease of doing something comes over time, not necessarily because the player gets better and learns the game mechanics, but instead because he put his hands on X mod, maxed it, used it for a build copied from somewhere else and is ready to trivialize everything, despite of learning nothing in the process and perhaps not even being mechanically skilled to make up for the lack of knowledge.

1 hour ago, android3162 said:

These still exist in on-level content unless you have every single mod and invigoration you need to make the extremely specific cheese strats.

Those mechanics have been trivial for years, arcanes, newer mods and invigorations just made them even easier to trivialize than before while the older ways to do it aren't available anymore.

1 hour ago, android3162 said:

That's again, not true at all. Warframe has as much engaging content as any typical game- 100 to 200 hours.

Can it be called "engaging content" if people can "play" warframe while watching a movie and still keep seeing "mission success" screens? That's a lot of engagement you got in there.

1 hour ago, android3162 said:

That's again, not true at all. Warframe has as much engaging content as any typical game- 100 to 200 hours.The only difference is that Warframe also caters to people who play for thousands of hours, which is impossible without having things like low drop rates and repetitive content, especially if there's no PvP angle. And people LOVE the grind, that's why they play it for hundreds to thousands of hours.

Ambassador and Holokeys want to say hi. Feel free to look for threads about those grinds so you can see how much people loves them. Since you're a somewhat old player, i'm sure you can remember some other grinds with similar reception.

1 hour ago, android3162 said:

That's called getting stronger. To get to this point, you have to conquer at least 300 hours of farming specifically focused towards builds, at which point, it's well earned. If you don't like those two things, just don't farm, and it'll instead be mechanically engaging difficult content. If you want to farm a bunch AND find engaging content, do the Open world bosses and Steel Path, but don't google the meta. If you want to trivialise all the content, google the meta and farm.

Getting stronger is fine, letting players become strong enough to entirely remove most game mechanics and still let us trivialize anything despite paying no attention to the game is an entirely different thing. There's cookie clicker for the latter experience.

1 hour ago, android3162 said:

Finally, there's the question of overall difficulty. Whether someone at the peak should be allowed to trivialise content. This is entirely subjective, just make a single post about making melee tougher mechanically, or enforcing things like aiming, and most people will dislike your idea. Warframe is a game that has never been about try-hard gameplay, and changing that is not a black-and-white "good" thing.

Yeah, it's subjective. However, seeing how the devs do stuff like nerfing melee (in a borderline unnoticeable way) or go out of their way to figure out how to make boss fights last longer, it seems to me like they don't want players to trivialize content like that, but they don't take more drastic measures simply out of fear to how toxic can get the loud part of the community that defends the current status quo as if they were fighting for their lives.

[Aldain]

7 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

No, there' plenty of ways to make a boss fun and engaging without making it a bullet sponge that has a single weakspot which can't be hit most of the time and becomes invulnerable again after taking [X] amount of damage.

Unpopular Opinion: Ropalolyst is the best designed boss in Warframe exactly because it avoids those issues to an extent.

The sad thing is that it is basically just using the 3D Zelda Boss formula and traditional 3 phase boss structure, but it overall feels the most like an actual boss fight and not a "run around while waiting for the boss to be susceptible to damage so you can kill it in 3 shots" like several other bosses are.

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, android3162 said:

Okay, don't try to patronise me. It never mattered whether it was 7 years old, it disproves the notion that the devs don't want to improve any existing content.

As pointed in that discussion, the quest was added 7 years ago, only the first mission was changed while everything else in the tutorial remains unchanged.

Also, didn't Pablo say on Tennocon that old content isn't worth being revisited? That says a lot about the devs' stance towards doing improvements to existing content.

1 hour ago, android3162 said:

It's a fact that goes against the main point of Josh's second video - that the Devs are incompetent, don't care, and that the community is too toxic to allow change.

A fact that got taken down by Pablo weeks before your statement. I doubt that DE are incompetent, if they care is arguable, but the community being too toxic to allow change is something i can definitely agree with, especially seeing forum responses to any dev workshop that completely changes an existing system, sounds like mildly "reducing (player power)", or seeing how the staff got death threats at some point after anouncing some changes to the game (changes to the damage system that would nerf slash, iirc)

But yeah, you can stay in your denial thinking that the warframe community is all pink and beautiful.

[Aldain]

10 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I doubt that DE are incompetent

I wouldn't call them incompetent...incredibly clumsy and occasionally misguided, yes, but not incompetent.

For every good idea the DEvelopers have, there's usually one OUTRAGEOUSLY bad idea that overshadows it; the death when testing Requiems on a Kuva Lich (which imo, was the worst way to show a "power reversal" in the history of video games), everything to do with The Wolf of Saturn Six, stuff like that.

That's not even talking about their...questionable math skills, but no, the devs are trying, they're just being pulled in every direction so what does release tends to seem rather...all over the map.

[----Legacy----]

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

You haven't seen the garbage drop rate in other games where you're not guaranteed to have the drop even on highest difficulty that is basically one shot fiesta from enemies?

"Other games do it, hence it's fine"  isn't a compelling argument tbh. It shouldn't be hard to put one and two together and see how -in warframe- our ability to do missions and kill stuff efficiently plays an important role on having those low drop rates.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Also, why is awfully drop rates in warframe exists if not those people who complain there's nothing to do once they got things? I've seen a live example of this person that say warframe needs "evergreen rewards" but when the things fitting the criteria is presented? How fast it's dismissed as "not evergreen" despite it's the same thing this player mentioned before because "I have millions of this because I'm a veteran" so yes, basically these kind of people need to grind something as "gameplay" and once there's nothing to chase, it's "nothing to do" and "content drought" so what can I say?

That's almost as if, some people had a lot more interest in the rewards than on the gameplay.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

You want aiming? We can have juggernaut or necramech mechanics where shots anywhere other than the weak spot gets severely reduced damage or nullified, and to make things worse, they're located at hard to get places like the back so you better aim fast before they turn their weak spot away from your sight. Not only that, it's immune to AoE so there you go, aiming required.

Has the armchair thinker ever sat on his armchair to think about why are these enemies designed in such a way? Something something mindless aoe fiesta comes to mind.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Dodging? So you prefer full immunity and damage reductions turned down that warframe might as well turn into another generic third person shooter?

If i wanted to play warframe like a generic tactical shooter i'd be in favor of keeping damage reductions that remove the need of dodging, not against them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Give me a reason why must I accept having my power to nullify damage nerfed just to appease you that want to have dodging as a must do?

Can't you just be immortal on earth or something? I'm sure that even with damage reductions nerfed to make dodges more important you could still be a god of the battlefield in there and some other planets too

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Can't you have your dose of that on Dark Souls or other games?

No. I can't have my dose of bulletjumping as a ninja in dark souls. And if there were other games i most likely wouldn't be playing warframe to begin with.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Managing resources? We're way past that, so why must I stress myself running out of resources when fighting through enemies? If I want to torture myself through that, I can play other games.

Or as pointed above, you could stick to warframe and play only in nodes where no matter what, failing a mission would still be a harder challenge than completing it.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Warframe being a chill game that can be played while not thinking is a good thing by itself so there's no need to destroy it just to appease one person

You can be sure i'm not the only one who would like warframe to get more emphasis in its mechanical gameplay instead of staying as a game that i could beat while sleeping, watching movies or even paying attention to another game while warframe just runs on my laptop.

[----Legacy----]

55 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Unpopular Opinion: Ropalolyst is the best designed boss in Warframe exactly because it avoids those issues to an extent.

The sad thing is that it is basically just using the 3D Zelda Boss formula and traditional 3 phase boss structure, but it overall feels the most like an actual boss fight and not a "run around while waiting for the boss to be susceptible to damage so you can kill it in 3 shots" like several other bosses are.

The ropalolyst boss is indeed fun, the only thing i dislike is the random grab that can happen even after we dodge its animation (liches have the same issue sometimes). It's probably my favorite along Nihil's despite this one not using our gear, but both require a decent degree of aiming (in different ways) and emphazise parkour to dodge powerful telegraphed attacks which are the gameplay aspects i like the most about warframe.

41 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I wouldn't call them incompetent...incredibly clumsy and occasionally misguided, yes, but not incompetent.

I wouldn't call them incompetent either (i'm sure i didn't), however, i think that the community got out of control and now plenty of decisions are made prioritizing not to piss the current playerbase instead of aiming for engaging gameplay that could attract new players and keep them playing for a longer time.

[Teridax68]

After watching both the review and the follow-up, I can't help but agree with Josh Strife Hayes and his assessment of Warframe, which has been echoed time and again by many other reviewers and players alike: Warframe has an amazing core gameplay loop, one of the best I have personally experienced in any video game, yet is mired in some of the worst systems design out of any game as well. The gunplay and parkour are excellent and mesh fluidly with one another, but the game also fails to provide a consistent, let alone good early game experience, instead overwhelming new players with years of feature creep and no real explanation or guidance. It is therefore not surprising that more than half of the people who've downloaded Warframe haven't even made it past the two-hour mark, which is absolutely terrible in terms of lost revenue. If DE wants to sustainably increase their income, as any company should, they ought to take a good, hard look at their new player experience in particular, beyond just the first couple of quests, and turn it into something that fully equips players to thrive in Warframe.

On our side, I think as a community we also need to make more of an effort to see things from other players' perspectives, especially that of new players, and not spend as much energy excusing glaring design flaws: the game may be easy for us long-time players, but only because we've had hundreds or thousands of hours to make sense of the game's feature bloat and horrendously stilted metagame. It is neither fair nor reasonable to ask new players to put in the same time commitment to start enjoying the game, because at that point we'd have already lost them, as they could be easily spending the same time doing things they can enjoy immediately and much more. This, in the end, makes our community smaller and more isolated than it deserves to be, and making those sorts of excuses instead of giving constructive criticism (and from a place of genuine respect for the developers) turns the community against itself, making us all more bitter in the process. Our ability to enjoy Warframe despite its flaws is not in opposition to its potential to change for the better, and if we want the game to survive, let alone thrive and continue to grow in ways we enjoy, we're going to have to stop excusing the issues that have been holding it back.

[OniDax]

5 hours ago, android3162 said:

It doesn't matter whether or not it's intended to be a general rebuttal to 100 hours. 90% of the background gameplay was Warframe, and the video came out immediately after the Warframe "review." There isn't a single big game he shows footage of or discusses in the whole video other than Warframe.

Either you read between the lines, and realise it's clear he's addressing Warframe specifically.

Or he didn't do that on purpose, but still he roped Warframe into a discussion about absolutely terrible games in which Warframe does not belong whatsoever. Even if Warframe wasn't the main topic, it wouldn't belong in that video. If he only wanted to get the "shouldn't require 100 Hours" point across, he wouldn't have put Warframe in that video, because the Original WF review already expressed that clearly and concisely. The only points that were new in the second video, were 'community is toxic against new players and want them to suffer,' 'Devs are too incompetent to explain their game,' 'Game is absolutely insufferable and not worth touching for 80%, then okay in last 20%,' and 'People only like the game because sunk-costs fallacy.' Take one look at the comment section and you see these exact points being the key takeaways from the video. None of these apply to Warframe, yet he doesn't talk about any other real game.

 

Meanwhile, Warframe is a game that only takes 100 hours to get to Second Dream IF you already LOVE the game and do every single mission you see. Otherwise it takes 15 hours. The New Player Experience is being reworked as fast as feasible. Just this much completely invalidates any reference to Warframe in his second video.

He never really directly addresses Warframe. What he's addressing is the statement by WF defenders that "It gets better after 100 hours." That's what he spends the whole video criticizing. The claim, the argument, the statement. And he does that because Warframe players responded to his video by saying that "it gets better after 100 hours." He doesn't actually criticize Warframe. But because he's showing Warframe gameplay, you diehard DE fans got offended and assumed he was criticizing Warframe.

I wish he had directly criticized Warframe. I wish he'd criticized all the glaring quality issues with the game. I wish he'd criticized the forgotten, half-baked systems which DE has added to the game over the years. I wish he'd criticized the poor structure and organization of the game, how the story is all over the place, how content is introduced to new players without any consideration for the story or how it impacts progression. Perhaps he wouldn't have felt the need to make such a video if diehard DE fans wouldn't try to excuse every single shortcoming of DE. If you all hadn't tried to defend the state of the post-intro early game and the game's lack of explanation of its features by saying "it gets better after 100 hours", then he wouldn't have felt the need to make a video about it.

[Sojufueled]

5 hours ago, android3162 said:

I disagree.

The cinematic is the newest, sure. But looking at the game as a whole, the entire Vor's Prize quest is new. Deadlock Protocol and tileset reworks are new. The Jackal fight is new. The gunplay-melee switching system is new and much more fluid. Junctions giving more credits is a huge step. The whole UI change that explains everything that you hover on, is also a huge step. All of these have stopped newbies I know from leaving the game. To say that DE is ignoring NPE, is to say that all of these have been there since the beginning of the game. They can do a better job, but they can also do a worse job.

 

That's not really what he said. He said that he loved the gameplay enough to make him want to keep playing regardless of the problems. Then in the second video, he said the gameplay is not worth touching for the first 100 hours, equivalent to hitting a single button repeatedly in a bus driving game. He specifically implied that the community only likes the game because of sunk-costs and hates all new players who skip the bad parts.

If it was just about Warframe having a bad NPE, the second video wouldn't have WF in it at all, because that's unnecessary. All the second video did was rope Warframe in with the worst possible MMOs in theory: straw-man games that are so bad, that he can't give an example of a single real game that's so terrible, yet he implies that's what Warframe looks like.

Yeah, the way I interpreted that video was that the NGE changes are working, but they still really need some more guidance for the modding system. If anything, DE should see this as a vindication of all that work.

[Zimzala]

But why would anyone care what some random person on YouTube posts about anything?

They are just random humans with no more less information about things than anyone else, especially when it comes to the subjective world of enjoying games.

Baffling that so many people put so much energy into arguing over some randos video.

YouTube Lemmings.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

He doesn't bash Warframe because it needs "100 hours to get to the good part", he's bashing the notion that such a thing is a valid argument in the first place. He praises the gameplay and admits that it's enough to get people hooked.

100 hours for the game to get good implies:

• early gameplay is just filler grind
• the rules of the game change to be better and more fun
• its where the plot finally picks up

Which are all arbitrary barriers. 

Frankly, I think the first 100 hours of Warframe is where the game peaks and we keep playing because we are already invested. Warframe is like a roller coaster.

In the beginning, the game is restrained:

• energy is hard to come by so new players gravitate to sacks of health (Rhino, Inaros) and dismiss squishy casters like Mag
• IPS matters because mods are limited, encouraging players to switch up weapons from planet to planet
• there are no reliable ways to recover health, so players are encouraged to play a little more conservatively

Mid game, the restraints are removed:

• energy becomes a bit more plentiful, casters become more viable
• IPS stops mattering as players get access to combined elementals and run whatever weapons they want
• Players get access to reliable healing, players can play a bit more aggressively

Late game, new restraints are added:

• energy is as available as tap water, just turn on the faucet, but we get a lot of enemies that are straight up immune to powers
• armor scaling gets so out of hand that only Viral/Slash or 100% armor strip matters when dealing with armor
• we play rocket tag with the enemies where everyone has to play a tank unless they are comfortable with abusing shield gating

Beginning, Mid game and Late game players have power levels differing in the order of magnitudes, creating other problems.

• Beginners find that the entire squad is already waiting at extraction, which leaves them unprepared for higher levels as they didn't get to learn anything, creating Mid-game players who don't know how to take out Sortie Bosses
• Late game players find that every single new enemy (Condrix, Protea Quest, Deimos enemies, Orphix, Corpus Sisters) have some form of damage attenuation to put them on the same playing field as Beginners, but not only does this invalidate gear progression, it more importantly invalidates the knowledge of Base Systems they spent hours being acquainted with creating a really artificial experience

[PublikDomain]

8 hours ago, android3162 said:

That's not applicable at all. Nihil's fight was meant to equalise all players specifically, it was season pass content. Deimos enemies don't reduce your power to nothing, they make you think differently and use other damage types. The game has always been about figuring out how to bully the enemies, and the new bosses and enemies do exactly that- old meta is bad? Figure out new meta. That's what happened with PT, exploiter, Liches, Sisters, everything. That's what people like, and if you don't, that's fine. Just don't tell others that they don't actually like it.

Hey, if you like fighting cheesy bullet sponge bosses with zero mechanical depth where 99% of fight consists of sitting around doing nothing waiting for the bad guy's monologue to end, then all the power to you. But if your argument is that you like gaining power so you can use it, then Warframe has been progressively doing the opposite. You gain power, only for the game to say "no no, that's too much, you can't use that here". It's only when DE forgets something exists and lets it fall through the cracks that you can actually use all the power you've gained.

9 hours ago, android3162 said:

It doesn't matter whether or not it's intended to be a general rebuttal to 100 hours. 90% of the background gameplay was Warframe, and the video came out immediately after the Warframe "review." There isn't a single big game he shows footage of or discusses in the whole video other than Warframe.

Either you read between the lines, and realise it's clear he's addressing Warframe specifically.

Or he didn't do that on purpose, but still he roped Warframe into a discussion about absolutely terrible games in which Warframe does not belong whatsoever. Even if Warframe wasn't the main topic, it wouldn't belong in that video. If he only wanted to get the "shouldn't require 100 Hours" point across, he wouldn't have put Warframe in that video, because the Original WF review already expressed that clearly and concisely. The only points that were new in the second video, were 'community is toxic against new players and want them to suffer,' 'Devs are too incompetent to explain their game,' 'Game is absolutely insufferable and not worth touching for 80%, then okay in last 20%,' and 'People only like the game because sunk-costs fallacy.' Take one look at the comment section and you see these exact points being the key takeaways from the video. None of these apply to Warframe, yet he doesn't talk about any other real game.

 

Meanwhile, Warframe is a game that only takes 100 hours to get to Second Dream IF you already LOVE the game and do every single mission you see. Otherwise it takes 15 hours. The New Player Experience is being reworked as fast as feasible. Just this much completely invalidates any reference to Warframe in his second video.

I think you're looking for malice where there is none. Maybe he made this video because, like he says in the video, he keeps getting told over and over again regardless of what game it is that he needs to keep playing for the game to get good? Warframe players absolutely do this all the time. "You gotta play the Second Dream!" "It only takes 15 hours to get there!" Maybe this was just the community that convinced him it was time make this video? Seems a lot more likely than him being a two-faced liar trying to slander Warframe because.... uh I guess because he's a big ol' meany-pants?

[PublikDomain]

6 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And can you ignore the damage output before all of your power gained? I don't think so, and we can ignore the damage output because of that and I prefer that way. Why should I get all of those power from adaptation to arcane guardian/energize if I end up still dying to Jackal's laser grid on early planets?

All of the stuff I was talking about is due to Operators being invincible in Void Mode, so it's only until TWW that you can't do this. After that point literally every boss or enemy in the game can be completely ignored because you're allowed to just ignore it. There are a scant few enemies that can actually damage you through the Void, Shadow Stalker being the only one that comes to mind immediately. So I'm not even talking about Adaptation and Guardian and Energize, those are totally fine by comparison. Laser grid walls designed to make you dodge and move and jump and use the environment as cover? Bah! Just crouch and alt-tab.

6 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And other games don't do this? Gated stages with thick health pool just to what? Make them "feel like boss"? Or naked health pools that is big enough to make you spend minutes just to deplete it? Why should we fight the boss like that?

Well maybe you should be asking DE this because every single boss and boss rework has been specifically designed to make you spend minutes fighting it, and to make it "feel like a boss". Using gated stages and thick health pools is pretty much every boss in the game. The negative picture you're painting is the game we're already playing lol.

6 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And why does that happen if not because people complaining everything is too easy and complain if DE ever try to touch their power? And that does shake the meta a bit, doesn't it? Not going with one size fits all solution like what these people say

Maybe because there are different people who think different things? For some people the game is too easy. For others it's not and they complain if DE ever tries to touch their power. And both of these people are correct, the game is both too easy and too hard at the same time because DE's been trying a one-size-fits-all solution for years and it hasn't ever worked once.

[Charlotte]

2 hours ago, Zimzala said:

But why would anyone care what some random person on YouTube posts about anything?

They are just random humans with no more less information about things than anyone else, especially when it comes to the subjective world of enjoying games.

Exactly. Why the hell some random ass video from some random ass youtuber is viewed as "more qualified" when said youtuber has NO qualifications to talk about the matter? It feels like the only thing you need to be considered "valuable" is a bunch of viewers and subscribers. Armchair developers, psychologists, historians, and so on, and so on. Feels #*!%ing depressing.

[AbyssalWyrm]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

 

4 hours ago, Zimzala said:

But why would anyone care what some random person on YouTube posts about anything?

They are just random humans with no more less information about things than anyone else, especially when it comes to the subjective world of enjoying games.

Baffling that so many people put so much energy into arguing over some randos video.

YouTube Lemmings.

 The worst is, they'd literally jump off a cliff if told so by x YouTuber. 

Or.. would it be.. well.. .. ..

I dislike how DE seems to omit player feedback but suddenly do stuff when issues are addressed by popular youtubers, that's why whenever some of them reviews warframe a lot of discussion gets held about the points made on their videos since these usually contain feedback that has been given here on forums for years, making it resonate amongst people who has been saying exactly the same while those opposing it get out of their way to dismiss it.

Calling players "Youtube lemmings" and claiming that we would do literally anything if told so is just a cheap way to handwave valid feedback by attacking the messenger(s) rather than focusing on the message. You know, an ad hominen fallacy or whatever you want to call it.